Books To The Boardroom
Are you interested in how Australia’s best leaders grew into the professionals they are today? The journey from University (Books) to Leadership positions (Boardroom) can take many different forms. Listen in as we interview CEO’s, CFO’s, and Executives, on how they ascended to leadership positions, made critical career choices, and overcame adversity throughout their career. The Books To The Boardroom podcast is co-hosted by Sumith Dissanayake, a CFO turned Business Owner based in Brisbane, Australia, who is fascinated by all things leadership and career development.
Books To The Boardroom
Navigating Change: Luke Howes on Recruitment and Technology
Adapting to Change: Lifelong Learning and Technological Advancement with Luke Howes
In this episode of the Books of the Boardroom podcast, season three of CFO Catalyst, the host interviews Luke Howes, CFO at Six Degrees Executive. They discuss the importance of lifelong learning and curiosity in both personal and professional development. Luke shares insights into the values-led and relationship-driven approach of Six Degrees Executive, as well as the significance of serving all stakeholders, including clients, candidates, and employees.
The conversation also delves into Luke's unique career journey, from studying classical languages at Oxford University to his immersion in Japanese culture. They touch upon the challenges and strategies involved in technology advancement and data quality in the finance sector.
Luke emphasises the need for a growth mindset, strategic planning, and maintaining data accuracy to leverage AI effectively. He also discusses the critical role of empathetic leadership and mentorship in shaping successful finance professionals.
Finally, they explore the evolving role of the CFO over the next decade, highlighting the necessity of data literacy and strategic thinking.
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Until next week, keep reading, keep listening!
Luke Howes
[00:00:00] Sumith Dissanayake: Welcome back to Books to the Boardroom podcast, season three CFO, catalyst. Today my guest is Luke Ho. Luke is the CFO at 63 Executive Luke, thanks for joining me today.
[00:00:14] Luke Howes: Nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
[00:00:17] Sumith Dissanayake: So wonderful. How is everything going in Melbourne?
[00:00:20] Luke Howes: Good. Thank you. Yeah, so we'll, just back from the Christmas break and things are starting to, get busy again, which is great. I'm looking forward to what's hopefully a really good year ahead.
[00:00:30] Sumith Dissanayake: Wonderful. So let us start with your current role at, six degree executive. So tell me about what Six, six Degree executive does and, what your current role involved in this business.
[00:00:43] Luke Howes: Sure. So Six Degrees Executive, we're a specialist recruitment and executive search business. we're wholly owned and operated in Australia. and we were established about 20 years ago by our three founders. and over those 20 plus years we've [00:01:00] grown to, be a business of just over a hundred employees nationally, and that's across offices that we've got in Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane.
and in terms of how we approach the, the market, we aim to differentiate ourselves by being, very values led and relationship. Driven, we, we, we've got a mantra which is about shaping futures. And for us, that means the futures of, of everyone we deal with. So for our clients, that might mean helping them to grow their businesses, the candidates, it's obviously supporting them in their career journey.
and then our own employees, you know, we're always trying to develop them, make sure we've got an exciting high performance culture that, that they can be a part of.
[00:01:39] Sumith Dissanayake: That's wonderful. You are trying to. serve the, the whole stack of the stakeholders.
[00:01:45] Luke Howes: I think that's right, and I think it's really important as a, as a recruitment business, like, you, you can get drawn into focusing purely on clients, but, but, we know that our candidates are customers just as much as our clients, and so making sure we deliver [00:02:00] a good experience and that we're building long-term relationships rather than just short-term one that's really important to us.
[00:02:07] Sumith Dissanayake: I can relate. So our business operates in the same manner. So we are playing that intermediate role, so we got our clients as well as our staff members. So we need, we are both off, like, you know, we need to feed both and make sure that they both, both parties are happy at the end.
[00:02:21] Luke Howes: That's exactly right. Yeah. Because everyone is at work for such a long period of their life that you want to be enjoying what you do and, and you want to be part of a team that's got a bit of a purpose, but also knows how to celebrate each other and, and have a bit of fun along the way.
[00:02:36] Sumith Dissanayake: Yeah, that's right. And look, you have an interesting, story about, you know, falling into the finance like you did a degree in classic. It's not the most obvious route into the fi into finance. So how has studying, languages influenced the way you think and approach, problem solving in your CFO career?
[00:02:57] Luke Howes: Thanks. Great question. So that's right. When I was [00:03:00] at, Oxford University, I did a degree in classics, which is, for those who don't know, it's Latin and ancient Greek. So not really a traditional pathway into finance. but at the time it was something that I was passionate about and, really enjoyed doing.
And so for me it was really, how can myself to. You know, work hard and, and get results out of that. And interestingly, the degree, while, while it's not related to finance at all, one of the real benefits from it was just around lateral thinking. So, so when you're doing a degree like that, you do elements of literature, history, philosophy.
You also just. Going through the problem solving of translating ancient texts, so you understand what they're saying. So, so I, I guess you're using a lot of different parts of your brain. and so that, that, I guess that problem solving mindset, and the drive to be across multiple different areas rather than just focus on one, [00:04:00] certainly helped lay foundations for how I've looked at my career.
From that onwards into finance languages has always been a big part of, of who I am. And, something I, I try to keep up. So there, there's always one language I have on the go. trying to refresh it or even learn it from scratch, because I think just challenges your brain to think a bit differently, and that's always really important to do.
[00:04:22] Sumith Dissanayake: It seems to be, and hopefully, I'm sure it helps with the communication as well, because that's the bigger part when you become A CFO more than the number crunching or accounting. So you've got a role to play in communicating with the rest of the stakeholders. Would that help? by doing a language kind of a degree at the beginning?
[00:04:40] Luke Howes: Yeah, that, I think that's a great insight because with a language, and particularly with, with a modern language where you are speaking it to communicate, you have the process of speaking, but then your, your brain is also thinking before you speak. How do I get across the message that I need to to portray, and when it's a language, you put purely thinking and [00:05:00] what's the grammar and what are the, what's the vocabulary that I need to get my message across?
Whereas when you're a CFO, again, while you're speaking, whether it's in a town hall or in a. Teams meeting or whatever it might be. I'm constantly thinking, am I delivering this message in the right way? Am I getting my points across? Am I reading the room? How are people gonna interpret what I'm trying to say?
So there definitely is an element of crossover for sure.
[00:05:26] Sumith Dissanayake: Yeah, that's right. And even you went to Japan. After completing your degree to Photoshop your language or learn the Japanese language, so tell me that story, like in what inspired you to go to Japan?
[00:05:38] Luke Howes: Yeah, I did go to Japan. That's right. So, as my degree was finishing, an opportunity came up to be part of a, an exchange program with a Japanese university that was based in a city called for Corker, which is in the southwest of Japan. and I'd never lived abroad before. I thought, well, this opportunity doesn't come up very often, so I grabbed it with [00:06:00] both hands.
and so that meant that I was living in Japan for, pretty much a whole year and I was there to learn Japanese. but you know, one of the great benefits was just immersing myself in, in the culture there. 'cause Japan is just a fascinating place. I'm not sure whether you've been.
[00:06:17] Sumith Dissanayake: I.
[00:06:19] Luke Howes: Yeah, great. Well, I always highly recommend it to anyone.
and, and it's a, it's a country of great contrast, but, just a fantastic place to visit. so actually living there and, not just seeing that tourist perspective, but being really immersed in the, the day-to-day, was such a great experience. And I guess ultimately, you know, having grown up in the UK got me very comfortable with the idea of living in a different country, when ultimately came to Australia.
There, there, there were, without doubt, some, some interesting experiences that I had while I was living there, you know, from ranging from, being invited to karaoke rooms, which was something that I'd never really done before, all the way through to, a [00:07:00] particular, experience I had, which was eating, eating this Japanese.
Delicacy, what they call it, a delicacy. To me it was pretty terrifying. But it's a, it's a, a fish called fugu fish, which is the Japanese puffer fish. And, it's a highly toxic fish. So, as a chef in Japan, you need to train for a number of years just to be able to serve it in a restaurant because the poison in it is so.
Deadly that it can kill within seconds. So, you know, it's not treated lightly. And I just happened to be at a restaurant with friends one day and they said, oh, well we've got a special treat for you. We, we, we've bought you a plate of F fish. And so that's, that wasn't really my idea of a treat, but I thought, well, I can't really, I, I can't turn down the hospitality.
'cause it was, it was a really genuine. Offer of something special for me to try. So, as you know, CFOs can be pretty risk averse, so I never would've ordered it myself off the menu, but gave it, and thankfully, I'm still here to tell.
[00:07:58] Sumith Dissanayake: That's wonderful. Yeah, that's [00:08:00] true. So yeah, six discovers, you know, four by nature. but you know, there's a human behind the, the C four title as well, so you, there's a bit of an urge there as well.
[00:08:11] Luke Howes: I think that's right and I think for me particularly, and I think about it a lot now, just always trying to push myself outta my comfort zone. I mean, maybe nothing that extreme anymore, but, definitely trying to expose myself to, to new things or, or get over fears that I might have. So, so one of them more recently was, I've.
Been, afraid of giving blood. just for whatever reason. I know not everyone likes to thought of it. and so I resolved last year that I was.
And do it. and that was a big, big thing for me. But having done it, I've now become a, a regular donor and definitely, you know, recommend anyone who feels comfortable to do it is such a great service to provide. So you always trying to push myself to do new [00:09:00] things for camp.
[00:09:01] Sumith Dissanayake: Yeah, it is a great thing. Like it's first time is hardest, right? To do anything, like even this, you know, running a forecast like this or. It on a good podcast like this, it's hard for the first time, but if you've done, if you have done it once, then of course you can do it for the second time, with some business.
[00:09:17] Luke Howes: That's right. I guess a little bit easier I, I'm sure as well for you, but it's never, never at the point where it's something you, you're totally comfortable with and you're always learning.
[00:09:24] Sumith Dissanayake: That's so true. But it, the thing is you can, can manage it and you know the words that you can, you know, when you know the words that you can have, then you can get ready for it.
[00:09:34] Luke Howes: Yes.
[00:09:36] Sumith Dissanayake: Right, so that's interesting how you conquer your peers. I think it is a very important lessons for, for CFOs as well as for the, you know, the young CFOs or aspiring accountants.
So who wants to get to the next level? There's always an unknown there, so you have to cross that territory or the across the border to get to the other side.
[00:09:57] Luke Howes: Yeah, I think that's right. And, and I've heard it described from a learning [00:10:00] perspective that you can be in, in one of three zones. You can be in your comfort zone, which most of us want to be in our comfort zone at least most of the time, because you don't wanna constantly be pushing yourself out of it.
Then there's the learning zone, and then outside of that, it's the terror zone where, You are, you are often, well occasionally having to be in there as a CFO, let's say when you're fighting fires or dealing with a crisis. But most of the time you wanna be spending that time out of your comfort zone in that learning zone so that, you're gradually improving yourself.
you know, you've got that growth mindset and you. Constantly developing yourself. Otherwise, if you spend too much time in your comfort zone at whatever stage in your career you're at, you can end up plateauing. So, so personally, I'm always committed to being a lifelong learner, thinking, well, what's the thing I can learn next?
Whether that's professionally or personally, and absolutely for anyone starting out in the career or maybe they're different stages in their career. I would say the more you can be curious and the more you can think, okay, what's the next thing [00:11:00] I'm gonna try? Even if it. Is something that makes me feel uncomfortable, because most of the time people are kind of backing you and wanting you to do well in whatever you're trying to do.
[00:11:11] Sumith Dissanayake: That's so true that differentiate where you're going to be in the future. Like if you are always going to be in the comfort zone. Of course you can stay there as long as you like it, but you know you're not never going to get to the next level.
[00:11:23] Luke Howes: That's right. Yeah. And sometimes it, it takes that extra level of commitment because everyone gets busy. everyone has deadlines that they need to meet, but I think you, you have to somehow factor into your working week. where's that space that I'm gonna think about? Okay. How am I gonna improve over the next.
2, 3, 4, whatever it might be, or what are the things that I'm gonna try that I haven't tried before? and then that way, even though you have priorities that come up in the day to day, you still make sure you don't lose sight of what, what's that longer term goal and what's that longer term progression that I've got?
[00:11:56] Sumith Dissanayake: Yeah, that's right. And but the look from my understanding, like, you know, [00:12:00] only a portion of people are self-disciplined enough to sort of, you know, do things on their own and sometimes important for you to have a mentor or mentors around you so that they can push you out of your comfort zone. So, I know that you had a CFO in your early career, so who was sort of influencing your career?
So tell us about that story.
[00:12:20] Luke Howes: Yes, that's right. So, that was my, CFO when I first moved out of practice. So, it is the role I had as financial controller within a, political and educational publishing group. and, yeah, he was the first C-C-F-O-I worked for, but without doubt. Someone I, I constantly look back to and think about not just how he helped me, with my career, but just the type of leader he was.
So, he was, good at, at working on the short term balancing priorities, but, but he certainly took an interest in my career and was always thinking, okay, well what else can I, either. Bring Luke along to, so that he can see something a bit different and [00:13:00] experience and learn from that. Or how can I push him out of his comfort zone?
he was, yeah, just a really empathetic leader. And, and some of the stuff that I took from him that I still value highly today and I still think about all the time, is just the fact that everyone, no matter what their role is in a business, is there to do a particular job. and it doesn't matter what that.
Job is, ev everyone should be valued equally for if you know what they're contributing. just that philosophy that, e even if you are doing what you're supposed to do, you know you're doing what's part of your day-to-day job description. Showing gratitude for someone who's done that, I think is, is really important and resonates a lot to my values.
And I remember once in one of my previous roles, thanking someone for completing the accounts payable payment run. And they said to me, this is part of my job. That's what I'm supposed to do. but I think it, it's important for CFOs or leaders to, to recognize and thank people even if it is doing the job that they're supposed to do, [00:14:00] because everyone's there to contribute.
Like the roles wanna be there if they want an important part of what, what makes the business run. And, and I think while someone might be doing something that they're expected to do, it's still important to show. I appreciate you put that into that. It, it was, accurate, whatever it might have been, and thank you for spending the time to get it right.
[00:14:21] Sumith Dissanayake: That's so true. Like in most cases, people only follow you if you're, they only follow you for the authority. They only follow you for the authority. Only when you're within that kind of, setup, it's moment, they're good out of that setup. So there won't be any respect. There won't be anything. So you basically lose them.
So, but if you want to compound your relationship with other people, so you have to sort of like what you said, treat them with respect and of course, be more accommodative and supportive, then using your power authority to manipulate their behavior.
[00:14:52] Luke Howes: Yeah, I, I think that's right. It is definitely about that respect piece. And then the other thing that I often reflect back on, is yeah, thinking [00:15:00] about that particular CFO and, how much I respect and value how he helped me on my career. I, I always think about, I. What's the legacy that I leave with people who are in my team?
So I, I think absolutely, I should be doing the best I can to develop people, grow them within the business, but I don't think the work stops there. Like I've, I've worked with people in the past who, have got to the point where they've developed as much as they can and, and we've had a conversation to say, well, actually I think if you're looking at your career.
there could be some great opportunities now for you to accelerate your career looking elsewhere. And, and while there's a bit of short term pain there for me, because I'll lose a valuable member of my team, I know that I've, I've helped to shape someone else's career for the longer term. and for me that, that's really important.
And then I still keep in touch with some of those people Will, will have mentoring style catch up or, or they'll bounce ideas off me. Sometimes I'll bounce ideas off them.[00:16:00]
You know, when I get to the end of my career, the thing I I will most wanna look back on will be how have I helped shape other people's careers so that they've gone on to be the best person they, they possibly can be. I, I, I think that's, that's so important. and definitely one of the values that I, you know, really strongly feel about.
[00:16:21] Sumith Dissanayake: Love what you said and it's a great analogy. Like, you know, you've got a short term pain when you lose your best, staff member, but. The benefit you get is like when you see them going somewhere and instead of course getting to the next level. And of course progress in work at some point, you know, at least the fulfillment you have.
It's your team member that you, for a period of time now they are on their own and then progress in work.
[00:16:45] Luke Howes: That's right. And then they might, who knows, they might end up coming back to work for you again in the future because they've, they feel like they've, had an experience where, you know, it's, it's left them with a lot of learnings themselves and they've developed and, yeah, they want to keep progressing by coming [00:17:00] back to work with you.
[00:17:01] Sumith Dissanayake: Yeah, that's true. So I know we got main two challenges in CFO's role. One is like managing your team or making sure that they're happy, and then of course doing what they got to do and then have a supportive environment. Second thing is the, you know, the modernization we call it, or the digitization. So we got a huge challenge because of the technologies changing or advancing.
So how do you cope up with the technological advancement or what sort of, strategies that you use to keep up with?
[00:17:30] Luke Howes: Yeah. so if I reflect on the, five years that I've been with Six Degrees, we've suddenly been through a lot of change during that time. we've, updated all our technology that's both the hardware, but also moving, completely into the cloud. We, we've spent a lot of time thinking about cybersecurity, which, I think keeps most CFOs awake at night.
That's certainly one of, one of the main risks that I think about. but it's also above and beyond [00:18:00] that. a lot of my team's time has been spent, working on data and analytics. So, If I, if I go back to when I started five years ago, it probably know similar to a lot of businesses, you know, we run a lot of their forecasting out Excel spreadsheets.
If anyone wanted to request a report from finance, it might take a few days to, to get that ready for them. So moving from that to, you know, where we've now got a lot, our systems, pointing to a SQL database where we can generate, reporting that's live, you know, real time reporting in Power bi, which we use a lot so that, we can see a forecast.
This, we call it the dynamic forecast because it's constantly changing. And while it's, as with any forecast, not a hundred percent accurate, it's definitely a, a much better guide than we've had before. but there's also things like, you know, recruitment, it's really important to, be able to see activity, get insights around, you know, which clients we, Worked with most recently, who are the [00:19:00] clients that we actually need to open up conversations with again? 'cause we haven't been in touch for a while. so we've spent a lot of time making sure that self-serve and everyone in our business has access to that. So a lot of transparency about the data, but also it means what you can do with it is really, really powerful.
But then I guess the next stage, you talk about keeping an eye on how do you. Stay agile when things are changing so much. we know that, you only get as much out of the data as you put in. So we're gonna go through, a big strategic exercise to, make sure we're getting our data as accurate as it can possibly be.
because with, as with any growing business or any business, you get, you can get the, the database, deteriorate. Its quality over time unless you're staying on top of it. you know, throughout all the things that you're doing. So, we're definitely looking at multiple angles where we can improve the data that's in there.
And then ultimately that delivers better insights for us, which will help maintain our competitive [00:20:00] advantage.
[00:20:00] Sumith Dissanayake: Yeah, that's,
[00:20:01] Luke Howes: then that, and then that feeds quite naturally into things like ai where, you know, I, I firmly believe that you need to get your data right before you, do any large scale AI projects because otherwise you're gonna be basing it on incorrect information.
and absolutely we're kind of playing around the edges with smaller scale elements of AI and how we can make sure that our recruiters are equipped with tools that are gonna make their day to day lives more efficient. But. That focus on making sure information is accurate. before then we're looking at transformational AI projects, which might come, you know, one or two years down the line, whenever that might be.
[00:20:43] Sumith Dissanayake: That's, so it's really why, I mean, the. Of course there's a temptation for you to go there fast, but you should not do that, and you as a CFO, like a strategic CFO to make sure that you stage it. So like first thing, like what you said, the data quality is more important. Like if you don't fit the right data into the ai, what [00:21:00] speaks out is not the right thing anyway.
So yeah.
[00:21:03] Luke Howes: that's right. And I think that, I think you, you hit the nail on the head when you talk about approach strategically. 'cause equally we, we've seen stories where, businesses have just said, have a go at AI and there's been no central control over it. which I guess in the short term can deliver benefits, but, my concern about that type of approach is, well, what's the impact on the customer? Because, you know, the customer should be right at the front of our minds. And so if, if our customers are getting different experiences based on who they're dealing with in the business and some of those. Experiences might not be the same quality, then that's, you know, that doesn't reflect well on us and that's not the type of business that we strive to be.
So I think, you have to have a strategy behind ai. You have to make sure that you're going into it knowingly. And most importantly, you gotta make sure you know what problem it is that you're trying to solve. And so, not just starting on AI for AI's sake, 'cause everyone's talking about it, but saying, well, there's [00:22:00] actually a big problem I've got here in my business.
Let's look at. How I can automate around that to solve that particular problem and deliver the outcome that I want. And I think if you, if you're approaching it, that mindset, then you're gonna be a lot more successful in any AI implementation.
[00:22:16] Sumith Dissanayake: That's so true. And the other element is sometimes, you know, people go into the AI projects or to the automation projects to replace the, the human, element or the human interaction. But I think what needs to be, what needs to happen is more beyond, you know, replacing them, sort of, you know, repositioning them somewhere they can add more value.
Then, so go with the mindset that I can replace, these people, and then of course, maybe do some, what do you call, saving or some kind of an efficiency.
[00:22:44] Luke Howes: I, I think that's definitely right and I think for us in particular, so we, we I guess try and position our services at, at a premium end in terms of the quality that, that we deliver in, in our consultative offering, and people are always gonna be a part of that. So [00:23:00] absolutely there are areas that you can automate to.
Help make you more efficient, but ultimately we need that critical thinking. We need the ability to communicate well be a great listener, all of those things, which, I, I think they can be complimented by ai, but, you can't just replace them with ai.
[00:23:20] Sumith Dissanayake: That's exactly right. So that, the other thing is, when we are trying to communicate with our stakeholders around this automation and, ai, sometimes there's a lot of misconceptions. And how, how do you. How's your strategy to sort of communicate well and of course give them enough information but not overwhelm them, you know, with a lot of information.
I think that's another problem we have. So how do you maintain that point balance.
[00:23:47] Luke Howes: Yeah, so, so I think with anything that we're implementing, so, so we've had various software rollouts that we've done. and for me it, it's important to get to the why. So why are we doing this? Rather than, [00:24:00] you know, you can't be tempted to start with the detail, this is how it works, this is what we're doing.
I think ultimately you're not gonna get that buy-in unless. Why you're doing it. And even the same for touching on what I, data quality. If you talk about data quality, no one gets excited by the, the sound of that. particularly, you know, if you, if you're customer facing, very sales driven, what you need to talk about instead is, what's this allow us going to, what, what is this going to allow us to do?
So how are you gonna have much better and more insightful conversations with. Customers, whether they're clients or candidates, as a result of information you can access at your fingertips and knowing that that information is really accurate. so as with anything, I think really getting that message across of why are we doing this?
Why is it powerful? How does it impact our customer? How does it provide a better experience?
[00:24:55] Sumith Dissanayake: Perfect. And look like, you know, if you give a, one [00:25:00] piece of advice to aspiring finance leaders or CFOs, what would it be? and what do you think the. Role of A CFO will looks like in the next 10 years.
[00:25:11] Luke Howes: Yeah. Well, two great questions. so I think in, in terms of advice, for me it would be having that growth mindset. So, always thinking about, what am I gonna learn next? What am I gonna apply myself to? And, I, I know it's just the case that life can get in the way. You can get busy and, and you can't necessarily commit specifically to, I'm gonna have done this in the next three or six months, but I think as long as you, you've got time.
Set aside to, to think about that, even if you need to move it, that's really important. So I know when, when I've planned my calendar over the, you know, any, phase of my career over the last 10, 15 years, I've always blocked out time to say, oh, this is where I'm gonna think about strategy. Whether it's my personal growth strategy or whether it's, let me, let me step [00:26:00] away from the call.
It like being on the dance floor, being on the, the balcony. Busyness that's going on and take that balcony perspective of, okay, what's, what's really important here? is there anything I could be doing differently? How can I leverage other people in the business to, to get a good outcome? So, my one recommendation in terms of something practical would be to make sure once a week you're blocking out time just to, to take that balcony or helicopter view.
Yeah, that. Absolutely. And then your second question about, how the role of the CFO is going to change over the next 10 years. I mean, it's, it's been so much change already in the, the role of the CFO recently. but every CFO, if they're not already, is gonna need to be data literate. They're gonna need to know about ai, but they're going to need to apply that.
Traditional skillset that the CFO, is expected to have of the risk averse, perspective. So like we spoke about [00:27:00] for ai, not rushing into the first thing that you see, but thinking about, okay, what are the options out there? Is this the best way doing things or can we do something differently? and I think as the noise gets more and more about AI all the time.
Absolutely critical to make sure you're not just jumping at, but you're actually implementing a strategy that's right for you business.
[00:27:22] Sumith Dissanayake: That's wonderful. It's great advice. Maya, thank you very much for joining me today and a lot of, inspiring thoughts about the industry and how things move in your direction. I mean, in the business. And, once again, if our listeners want to get in touch with you, so what would be the best way for them to do at school?
So,
[00:27:41] Luke Howes: Yeah. Well thank you as well for, having me and as part of the conversation, it's great conversation and, yeah, if anyone wants to reach out to me, I'd, I'd love to hear from them. the best way is to connect with me on LinkedIn, so yeah, absolutely encourage people to contact me that way. It'd be great to hear from everyone.
[00:27:57] Sumith Dissanayake: thanks, Luke.
[00:27:59] Luke Howes: [00:28:00] Thanks.
