The Athletes Podcast
The Athletes Podcast is a leading source of information, inspiration, and education for anyone interested in optimizing physical performance, maintaining good health, and living an active lifestyle. Join David Stark as he interviews some of the world's biggest athletes and fitness professionals, The Athletes Podcast provides practical advice, expert insights, and real-world strategies to help listeners achieve their health and fitness goals.The goal is to entertain, educate & inspire the next generation of athletes!
The Athletes Podcast
Nick Bowins & Dan Marrazza: The Role of Social Media in Sports - Episode #251
This episode focuses on the critical role of social media for athletes in building their brands and connecting with fans. Nick Bowins and Dan Marrazza discuss strategies, share insights on the evolving digital landscape, and emphasize the necessity of authenticity and intelligent engagement for aspiring athletes.
• The significance of social media in an athlete's career
• Successful case studies and examples of athlete branding
• Challenges traditional sports culture presents to athlete engagement
• Strategies for young athletes looking to build an online presence
• The potential of social media for charity and community engagement
• Future trends in athlete representation and content creation on social media
• The difference in social media acceptance between various sports leagues
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Each athlete's story is unique, and so are their pathways to success. By embracing social media with authenticity, athletes can harness their personal brand potential and engage with their audience in fresh, meaningful ways.
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I was told in I'm going to say like 2017 or 2018, I was doing a couple different internships again in hockey and I was told like don't waste your time taking pictures of individual guys. Take pictures of them with their teammates, take pictures of them celebrating as a group after they score, because that's all the guys are going to post.
Speaker 2:What's going on, guys? Producer Ryan, here I'm filling in for Dave on this intro. Today we've got the 251st episode of the Athletes Podcast. Can you believe that? That's pretty insane. We've got an awesome couple guests on the podcast today. We have Nick Bowens and Dan Marazza. Nick works for Working in Hockey. It's a subsidiary under Hockey Collective and they help aspiring professionals work in hockey. It's a uh subsidiary under hockey collective and they help aspiring professionals work in hockey. He posts jobs, has newsletters. He'll get into more of it in the actual episode. And then we have dan marazza, who has worked for a bunch of different nhl teams, ahl teams. You'll see he's got a couple ahL jerseys in the back of his video as well. These two guys are fantastic.
Speaker 2:Coming from me, I'm a person who has spent a lot of time trying to work in sports Graduated, took a bunch of time applying every day to hockey jobs, to sports jobs and what Nick is doing, what Dan talks about on this episode. It's incredible stuff. It's so useful for someone like me to have had this when I was going through this. It would have been a super great resource. So it's going to be an awesome thing for you guys to check out. I can't wait for you guys to be able to watch this episode and learn a bunch of stuff there. Before we get into the episode, I'd like to just give a quick shout out to Perfect Sports, one of our sponsors. I'm actually in the process of getting some Perfect Sports supplements. I ran out, so need some new ones. Use code AP20 at checkout. It's going to save you 20%. This stuff's awesome. You're going to love it. Anyways, without further ado, let's hop into this episode. Enjoy episode 251 of the Athletes Podcast.
Speaker 3:You're the most decorated racquetball player in US history, world's strongest man, from childhood passion to professional athlete, eight-time Ironman champion. So what was it like making your debut in the NHL? What is your biggest piece of advice for the next generation of athletes, from underdogs to national champions? This is the Athletes Podcast, where high-performance individuals share their triumphs, defeats and life lessons to educate, entertain and inspire the next generation of athletes. Here we go.
Speaker 3:This is going to be the Athletes Podcast, episode 250-something featuring Nick Bowens and Dan Marazza, specifically talking about social media, sports, working in social media in sports. Maybe that's what we'll title it. Gents, thanks for coming on the show Excited to chat. Sure, a slightly more unique aspect of the world of athletics, specifically when it comes to social media. Everyone knows who's consuming content on a daily basis, that it is the world that we live in. You two are experts in the field, working with the NHL, their own personal brands, business brands. Gents, I am honored to have you both here today, excited to chop it up. Nick, why don't we start with you? Give us a little backstory on who you are, why we got you on the show today and where you will be in 10 years? Because, dude, you're a legend in the sport already.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that, david, happy to be here with you both, and I feel a little left out of the Jersey game. We got the Checkers, the Phantoms, we got a beautiful Team Canada over there. I feel like I should have done a little bit more of a setup here. No, I'm happy to chat here. Big fan of social media, big fan of hockey combine the two. That's kind of been my passion projects over the last number of years. Here I tread loosely with the expert term, but I appreciate you dropping that one on me.
Speaker 1:I am the co-owner of Hockey Collective. We're one of the biggest hockey media outlets online today. We've got about 415,000 followers on Instagram as our main platform. I run that with my buddy, patrick Sheba. I recently started a brand called Working in Hockey, where I share hockey jobs online through a newsletter, through social media, really just trying to showcase and educate people on roles and stuff that they may not find elsewhere. I've worked for OHL teams. I've worked for hockey product companies that we all know and love. I've done a lot of different little side projects and gigs along the way, but, like you say, love social media, love hockey.
Speaker 3:Perfect fit for the show. Expert is the term we're going to go, with Dan Marazza also an expert in the field.
Speaker 4:I don't know if I'm the expert either, but I'll do my best. I'm Dan Marazza. I was most recently the lead digital strategist for the Arizona Coyotes prior to the team's departure, where I joined the club in February. I hold the interesting distinction I was the final hire in the history of the Arizona Coyotes Back in 2016,. I was the first hire in the history of the Vegas Golden Knights as the director of digital and social. So I bookended a couple of franchises in addition to a couple of hockey teams in the desert there.
Speaker 4:I've been on the journalism and the social side where, either as an intern or a grad assistant, a couple of my former employers on the wall behind me in the Phantoms and the Checkers and the AHL and also the Tampa Bay Lightning. In that capacity as a journalist, I freelance for Sports Illustrated and ESPN and the New York Times and the Hockey News at one point as well, and kind of wore those hats. And as the industry has grown because back when I started, social media wasn't even a thing yet it just became the thing that when I graduated college Ithaca College in 2009, it was right as teams and companies started to get on social. So as the industry has evolved in that way, I've kind of evolved in that way too, from being a communications guru to, as David would say, a social media expert, but the jury is still out on that one.
Speaker 3:You guys are way too humble. This is part of my job. As I come on, I pump the tires during the podcast because, frankly, this is something that everyone should be talking about in some way shape or form. Before we started recording, we were talking about the fact that hockey players, specifically, are not taking advantage of this, whether that's societal norms, whether that's general managers or management, maybe not letting guys do their thing as much as possible.
Speaker 3:We're seeing it in the PWHL more than ever. We see it in other leagues and other sports. Can we get a sense from the two of you as to how social media should be used as an athlete, given that we're on the Athletes Podcast here and we're here to educate, entertain and inspire the next generation, we need to know how these athletes can also potentially build a brand for themselves, make some additional capital, spread awareness about philanthropic efforts that they're doing, maybe charitable societies that they're close to their heart. Where do you two see this social media world being for sports, for athletes? Maybe, specifically, we'll talk hockey, because that's both your backgrounds, because they're the ones that have the biggest opportunity, probably, right yeah, no, very well said.
Speaker 1:I think there's endless opportunity on social media for athletes, in particular, from when we were all two, three, four years old watching our favorite teams and favorite players, to you know, now in our 20s and 30s, watching games. Like everybody is fascinated by athletes. Everybody wants to know what they're doing, how they're thinking, how they're feeling, what their exercises are. They want to know everything about these athletes. It doesn't matter what sport they are in, and I think that that's such an opportunity that so many other creators or avenues would kill for they would kill to have that much kind of outside interest and appetite for their content. You look at a Twitch streamer or something like they would kill to have the desirable eyeballs and everything that an athlete has today. So I think there's so much opportunity for athletes to be creating more on social media. I think the biggest thing it's a buzzword, but it's real. It's got to be organic, it's got to be authentic.
Speaker 1:You have all seen athletes that don't authentically promote stuff on their social media and everybody can see through it. In 2024, almost 2025 here, we all know it now. It was a different landscape in 2015, 2016, when guys were first getting brand deals and doing stuff and you know, I think there's just been a big shift to more organic, more authentic approaches and players. They're able to do that today. They can showcase their lives. They can showcase what it's like when they fly into a different city to play a road game. They can showcase their workouts or their health routines or whatever it may be. There's such an appetite for these athletes to showcase what they are doing off the ice or off the field, and I think that we're really just getting to the start of it, dan.
Speaker 4:I think, following off that, I think one of the things that's interesting is that every athlete always probably hears their whole lives, that careers can be short sometimes, that you have a long life after hockey, and I think one of the things this clicked to me the other night where I'm watching TNT and you have Paul Bissonette, wayne Gretzky and Henrik Lundqvist no disrespect to Biz, but I'm like where's the misfit of this trio? He would probably be the first one to say that himself, top whatever amount of flyers is that? Yet he's on the stage with two of the iconic figures, including the most iconic figure in the history of the league. And all of that brand building started when he was building his social media presence back when he played, and that took off to the point where he has a very lucrative post, probably a more lucrative post-career earnings than he did during his career, which I found interesting. And I find it interesting because there's so many ways that social media provides an infinite platform. In the old days it was TV and there were a couple networks and if you didn't get one of the brand deals for one of the couple commercials you were kind of locked out of the sponsor game. But now there's kind of unlimited platforms and there's so many ways you could go about it, where I think sometimes in hockey, which certainly has a more conservative culture than the NFL or the NBA, that you use the Bissonette example and you see a bunch of people kind of tighten up a little bit saying, well, we can't go and do that.
Speaker 4:But you could look at somebody like Kevin Weeks also, who's made a name for himself not only on breaking news which is not the first one to break news but doing his unique videos from the locations that he does it on, and I think I remember watching during the free agent frenzy, I think last year, it might've been the year before the years kind of blend sometimes is that he actually was drawing more video views on his social platforms than TSN was drawing on TV to watch it, and I think that is something that's really interesting. That shows what the power of that is and where that could be and whether that's showcasing your personality. I think we've seen that being genuine is important but that could be like biz, that you go a little more of the checklist route. You can go the Kevin Weeks route of being a little bit more breaking news and providing value in that way, or it could be something else that somebody hasn't even thought of that we've seen that, as many athletes try to figure out what they're going to do after their playing careers, the brands that they can build when they have the platform in their playing careers can lead to such opportunities and not to ramble on all the pitches for these guys. But it's even you see, a lot of pro wrestlers have their own podcasts.
Speaker 4:I feel like almost every former pro wrestler, whether it's the Undertaker or Stone Cold, steve Austin or Mick Foley, have their podcasts is that it opens the door for even things like that of telling stories and things like that. So it really opens a lot of opportunities, not only to generate fans, but also to generate an income. To generate an income post-playing career that, rather than going back to school and finding a new profession, that you could stick her into hockey if you want. You don't need to wait for an ESPN or a TSN to call you that you could become an analyst that monetizes in your own right. So I think seeing that and understanding that, but also for many people in the sport to understand that you don't have to be biz to do this, that there's other ways to do this, that you can be a nice, safe version of authentic, but you can still drive a lot of value. I think that's one of the things that I find so interesting about where social media can still grow in hockey.
Speaker 3:I love that point. Biz Lundqvist and G gretzky maybe not three ideal people that you'd think of to be running a panel, but to your point it's because biz did do that for a decade prior and he's built that and there's a demand and I bet you he'd pull more than tnt would if he was live streaming right and uh, shout out to kevin weeks fellow tend attendee Love that. Good on him. I think about people like Jared McCain right now in the NBA, who is absolutely dominating not only the sport before he got injured, but also on social media With TikTok. He's been doing that for years and he's crushing Like hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of followers.
Speaker 3:At this point, a rookie doesn't give a damn that his nails are painting. He's still going to drop 30 on you and he's still going to do a tic-tac dance afterwards to celebrate. Why is it that the nba has allowed this to occur? Yet the nhl is behind in this, for instance, is there discrepancy between each league based on management? Who's involved, ownership? I'm curious to get your guys' thoughts and why Jared, for instance, is seeing such success. Even a Max Homa in golf world right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think, at the end of the day, what they're doing is different than what anybody else has done. Max Homa with his roasting golf swings online. We hadn't seen that before. That's somebody going out of his comfort zone but, knowing what he's good at comfortable with, he's good at cracking those jokes he's doing something that he would do with his buddies. So it's organic, it's authentic, it's genuine. When he's doing it online, people eat it up because it's the first time they've ever seen that.
Speaker 1:Right To your point, of the different leagues, they're all different. I mean, every sport is different, from hockey to football, to wrestling, to swimming. Everything is different in just the way that you're coached, the way the mentality is. That's the unfortunate reality of it.
Speaker 1:I was told in I'm going to say like 2017 or 2018, I was doing a couple different internships again in hockey and I was told like, don't waste your time taking pictures of individual guys. Take pictures of them with their teammates, take pictures of them celebrating as a group after they score, because that's all the guys are going to post. And I think that still rings true today in hockey, where players want to celebrate their teammates. They don't want to seem bigger than the logo on the front of the jersey, right, all those things.
Speaker 1:And I look at the Leafs player, the game belt, all those things. And I look at the Leafs player, the game belt this year maybe late last year, but this year their post game photos that they post after every single game has three or four guys sitting there with the belt and they're hugging each other, their arms around each other. It's not just Matthews who won the player of the game belt because he never posted those on his socials once, but now they got Matthews with Tavares' arm around him and Riley sitting beside him and all three of the guys will share that right. Because hockey is just so kind of ingrained to be team first, team friendly, put your teammates ahead of yourself, and I think teams are starting to find ways to play into that with that example of the player of the game belt where those three guys will go share that, because now it's just your buddies or you know, somebody gets their 50th goal, the teammate will share it, or the assist, right. So that's kind of how I look at it, dan, what do you think?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think one of the things that's interesting and I'm a history buff so I have to use the historical reference of how I genuinely believe any change that happens comes from the top. You're not going to be. Biz is a one-off in terms of a guy who's a fourth liner who was able to build his presence. Generally speaking, it's the top guys that change things, where if McDavid does it or Ovechkin does it, they have a lot more authority to be able to do things and potentially not get questioned just because they've built up such equity in the sport and amongst their teammates for what they do that they have more room. So the historical one was back in the 1950s, gordie Howe, when he played for the Red Wings. The culture was back then that players did not talk about how much money they made. So what would happen would be is that they would go into the contract negotiations and even if Gordie had second team all-star great year, the general manager would say to him you know, last year you scored 40 goals. This year you scored only 38. You're slipping, but we believe in you. We still want you to come. We still want you on the team next year. How much money do you think you should get, and he would write the same amount of money as he did the previous season $12,000, $13,000 a year. Because the way the narrative of the conversation went, he was just so grateful and wanted to play that he just wanted to be safe and playing for the Red Wings. That being said, then when other players go into the negotiations and if they want more money, how do you say you want more money than Gordie Howe? How can you do that? So you kind of fall in line too.
Speaker 4:So eventually, as we saw in the 50s, the 60s and the 70s, a lot more of that information started to be disclosed. And when information started to be disclosed from the top guys whether it's Bobby Hall going to the WHA or other moves of that nature you saw rising tide, lifted all ships because Bobby Hall was going to be able to play where he wanted to play and Gordie Howe was going to be able to play where he wanted to play. I think with social, this is similar 40, 50, 60 years later, in that it's going to be really hard to have the third liner be the one who launches their own thing, or, if you're talking about a championship belt for the Leafs, to have a third liner hold up the belt like he's the champion of the world is that it's probably not going to do that, but if Matthews or Ovechkin or Crosby or whoever did that, it would become more accepted. I think what would happen once it becomes more, once it would become more accepted, is that all of a sudden people would realize okay, this doesn't necessarily have to disrupt team dynamics.
Speaker 4:I know hockey likes to pride itself on, we're a team game, but basketball is a team game too. I mean, the NFL is a team game. I would never-.
Speaker 3:Soccer.
Speaker 4:I've worked in football also, I've worked in the NFL. These guys are all about their teammates and they would probably resent the fact that if hockey were to suggest to them that they were not a team-oriented sport the same way. But I think hockey prides itself that they are the team-oriented sport, not necessarily seeing that sometimes some people that other sports face the same dynamics. They've ventured through this wall to that next stage and the world hasn't burned down, things haven't gone on fire and everything's okay. I think it'll take a couple of really top guys to do this in ways that are not necessarily outspoken. I think, if anything, as I referred to earlier, somebody having a presence that's based on authenticity, that's not necessarily snarky or that way, I think would really deliver the message throughout the league that you can have a presence that is not biz or isn't chiclets, that you could do it in a way that is still fitting the culture of the sport but still showing more of your personality. And once that happens similar as salaries rose in the 50s, 60s and 70s when the top guys started to rise I think when the top guys would start to rise on social, it would bring rising tide, would lift all shifts. That's a very deeply ingrained cultural thing. That's going to be hard to happen. But, that being said, there's only a couple top guys. It only takes a couple of those top guys to do that for things to start to change.
Speaker 4:So, especially as we now go into the next generation of players that grew up with social, even more so I think you're going to see that. Or you see younger general managers, like the Kyle Dubases, who grew up with social a little bit more and maybe are a little bit more open to that potentially, I think, as you see the success of those, because hockey is a copycat league. Back when teams played the neutral zone trap, everybody the like the cup champions. One that played the neutral zone trap, so did everybody. When the flyers mixed it up in the 70s, everybody mixed it up and started brawling. Is that, I think, when you start seeing a couple people having success making money on social, I think it's going to be a light bulb moment for a lot of people saying I need to be doing that too, and I think that's how it. I think that's what would have to happen for it to eventually grow yeah, and I think even leagues like the chl.
Speaker 3:I go watch whl hockey here with the vancouver giants my cousin playing um, and they do a good job on social and I see that potentially showcasing to the nhl what's capable of occurring at a slightly lower level, where there's maybe not as many implications, not as many brand partnerships, deals etc. Sometimes it just happens organically too, and to your point, when that next gen comes through, an Angel Reese who gets a perfect partnership for a podcast Reese's Pieces, sometimes they just fit perfectly together, right, and then you can have someone doing an organic podcast bringing people on, highlighting them, but maybe it doesn't impact their day-to-day on-court schedule or their season for that matter, because they can do it during the off-season. That was kind of my next question. To play devil's advocate, if I'm Lou Lamorello, who notoriously does not like people doing any other social engagements, speaking engagements etc.
Speaker 3:How do I as an athlete or how do I as a general manager, potentially play and be like hey man, like yeah? I understand, I hear you. You want to build your social media, but you know what I own you from September until March, april and then, but during the offseason you can do whatever you want. Is there a world where athletes could still potentially build their brands during the offseason, when they aren't required to be doing all this? Like I know, it takes away from the travel experience, the potential to collaborate with others, but maybe there's a world where we can still see both without the nhl holding on to their strings. Does that make sense? Am I in la la land?
Speaker 1:no, I think that definitely makes sense and honestly I think I've been down that path a little bit in the past. Uh, one of my first gigs in hockey was with uh gentleman jt barnett, who I'm sure both of you know on social media friend of the show he's been on out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, I don't doubt it. But uh, one of the best guys out there to follow with social media tips and, uh, you know, played some pro hockey, played in uh Junior. His dad's been heavily involved with the game for forever. We started a brand together in COVID called Triple Deke and we were doing behind-the-scenes, day-in-the-life type videos of the upcoming prospects guys who were 15, 16, 17 at the time to try to get that wave of players show them how they were living, how they were training during COVID. So, to your point of doing it in the off season we had Bedard, we had Matty Beneers, we had Matthew Nyes, we had the Hutsons, we had everybody. When they were 15, 16, they were comfortable getting on camera working with JT and I filming their workout routines during COVID at home. To your point of doing it with teammates and stuff you might be with more buddies in the summer than you are during the season, right. So these guys were. You know there were six or eight of them skating together during covid restrictions and you know they'd go work out together, they'd go to the lake after. Together they'd film their whole day and send it to us. We were posting that stuff in like 2020. So I think the appetite is there for these young guys.
Speaker 1:Again, you both touched on the, the age group who grew up with social media and understanding social media. I think these guys in every sport, guys and girls are going to be able to eat that up and, you know, kind of lean into that a little bit more. When I talk to companies or businesses, I always kind of say that there's two ways that you can post on social media you can entertain or you can educate. Those are the only two ways that you're going to get people's interest. These days Athletes, kind of like influencers or actors or musicians, are in this kind of third category where they can combine both of those to showcase. So there's entertain, educate and showcase.
Speaker 1:Athletes are able to showcase what they do Again, day-to-day, whether it's the workout routine, the smoothie they make, what shoes Austin Matthews is wearing to the game. You know, bedard, what he's doing on an off day in San Jose when he goes down to play, celebrating, like whatever it is. Athletes can showcase in their off time and I think we're going to see a lot more of that because there's not many people that can showcase their day to day lives and people care about it. If I follow myself around with a camera here at home today working my day job, doing this on lunch, making dinner tonight. Not many people are going to care If Bedard does it. It's a little bit different.
Speaker 3:It's crazy to me that you say that, though, nick, because there is an appetite for even someone like yourself there is. I know Connor Bedard is probably going to get more views than you, but social media has a world for everyone to live in, whether it's the fourth line grinder, whether it's the first line center. Dan, you've probably seen that from the inside results. Stats Can you speak to, like, for instance. You know, when you see a Clayton Keller come through or when you see high profile athletes, they might get an uptick. But you're also going to see results from a biz or from a Conor Ingram or from insert any other athlete, because there's fans of those individuals as well. Maybe they're not the superstar, but they still have people interested in who they are.
Speaker 4:Sure, I think for me the biggest example of that was when I was at the Vegas Golden Knights, because at the very beginning we were getting players from every other roster in the league.
Speaker 4:And I know certainly, as we would be going through our analytics, you would see big uptake in Western Pennsylvania and wonder why maybe we got a goalie from that once played there or something of that sort that wanted to, that people wanted to continue to follow along with. But I think the thing that I've learned and I've seen from the inside of things is that I think we all are in agreement that hockey players that are in hockey teams that our first priority is winning and right now they look at social. Can it be done? Not at the expense of team and winning, not maybe looking at it? Can it be something that helps create winning and gives us a competitive advantage?
Speaker 4:What I mean by that is is that I know with the Vegas Golden Knights, when we launched our social, we came out firing, we were leading the league in engagement before we played a game. And if you take the follower growth we have, if you take the social value of the posts we have, meaning that you could use analytic platforms to provide well, what does one follower mean for a team in terms of dollars and cents? I know for us in the first two years that I was there meaning the buildup and then, during the first season the value of that was $35 to $40 million, as I know that when it came to the social value of the posts meaning engagement and eyeballs and things like that it was well over $100 million value of follower growth plus the value of that. Plus that contributes to also bringing in sponsors which bring actual money in and not what some teams would call theoretical money.
Speaker 4:It brings actual dollars in, and that doesn't even necessarily include how it got people into the building in a brand new market. Is that? I think we would all agree that one of the things that's allowed the Vegas Golden Knights to be successful on the ice is that they have one of the loudest, most raucous environments in the league, and certainly the team's on ice success has been a leading cause of that. But that being said, we also came out of the gates with a lot of that stuff as, too. So the thing is, if you look at a player that you're trying to sign and you're trying to tell them why they should come there, you sell them on the atmosphere. You could play in this atmosphere every game, and when we have success, this is what it looks like and this is what you can do.
Speaker 4:All of a sudden, now you are becoming a destination based on the quality of your content. The same way, we see a lot of collegiate teams, especially in football and basketball in the US, that their content teams are very heavily under-recruiting. You also have the impact of more money in the pockets of the team equals more money that can hypothetically be spent on players. So, just from an X's and O's standpoint is that it's always been cable deals in the past, but obviously cable's kind of going by the wayside now with streaming and things like that. But what are those pieces of the pie that make up a team's finances? And I strongly believe a lot of it is through content not only content and digital and social, but also streaming, things of that nature that if you're able to say to an older general manager that I know you don't love social, but it's going to allow you to sign one more defenseman if we do this All, of a sudden
Speaker 4:you're now saying, okay, maybe not so bad. It's like the meme of the girl turning her face, and it's like, oh, it changes a little bit. I think one of the things, though, that the perception that needs to go into this is and this is on us who work in social. It's not on them to learn, it's on us to educate them on what this is, not just that this got 100 retweets and this is why this is good for this team, but this delivered $100 million in value, or 25, or whatever number it is. You can now use this to invest. They now start saying well, what do you need from us? How can we compromise on this? How do we not compromise the integrity of the team dynamic and still do this to get that advantage?
Speaker 4:I think, once people start to understand that and that social is not necessarily just a kid's play bunch of kids playing on the phone which I know, growing up in the industry is definitely the perception that some hockey people have of social that it's not necessarily as respected as being a broadcaster or being a journalist is that. However, I would argue that social has the ability to drive a lot more revenue than an individual broadcaster does or a journalist does, and I think it's on us to establish that and prove that to, whether it's teams, if you're on the team side, or players, if you're on the athlete marketing side or agency side, of really proving it that way, to really advocate and show that this is a competitive advantage on the ice, not just something done for vanity off the ice. I think that would be a really big step that would play into the values that hockey already does have and kind of speak their language a little bit more.
Speaker 3:So I'm just going to clip that, send it to 120 GMs of the big four and then I think you myself, nick, will all be employed shortly afterwards. I think the combination of the Vegas flu as well as the social media probably was a good combo for the hometown team there. I know that that was definitely something that those first couple of years teams had to get adjusted to, but it's so true, dan, couple years teams had to get adjusted to, but it's so true, dan, like those numbers there are mind-boggling for anyone who has no reference to what social media can bring in from a brand perspective, to your organization and to your point. Being able to sign a defenseman might lead to your team making the playoffs, which means hundreds of thousands, if not millions, more dollars money and it just keeps perpetuating it and it's so.
Speaker 3:It's a crazy cycle that if you'd let it run and go its course, it's probably going to lead to crazy results. Uh, I was going through before we started recording and something like four, five, six of the top 10 athletes are in soccer specifically. Again, team sport, maybe a bit more individualized, but this world that we live in now, brands should be taking athletes and saying, hey, this is what we can do with you. Example here with the athletes podcast, for instance. Even working with MLSC last year, we sold 50-ish tickets from one podcast to a Toronto Argos game Toronto Argos 30% discount, nothing crazy. But you get a Toronto Argonaut on the show. You highlight what they're doing within the community and then that leads to, hey, maybe I want to go watch that athlete play next week.
Speaker 3:And, crazy, it didn't cost MLSC a cent to have Benoit on the show, but it led to 50 plus tickets being sold. Why can't we replicate that across every organization within North America and, frankly, across the world for that matter? Why aren't organizations open to this? Dan, you've seen it from the inside. Do brands need to be bringing these opportunities to them? What's the best way for this to occur? And then, nick, I'll go to you after, because I know you've got it from the brand side.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, I think that one question could be a podcast almost in itself.
Speaker 4:I think one of the things that happens, though and this is not unique to working in hockey or working in sports or working in anything is that every business that I've ever either consulted for or when I do that too they always want to say well, we're doing things this way because this is how they've always been done, or we can't keep just doing it because this is the way things have been done, and what you'll see with that is that and it becomes that cycle where everything's connected is, without more revenue coming in, you're not having an investment in more people on your team on the social side, on the content side. Without people that are there, you're not able to pay higher salaries for people like that, meaning you're not attracting the same talent. Is that when you get higher talent and you get bigger teams, that's when you have the ability to turn this into weight, things that are showing that hard money and showing what that is where I think a lot of people and this is not a shot at anybody are just doing the best they can with the tools that they have, and sometimes that just means you're paddling just to stay afloat rather than really making progress. I think that is one of the dynamics that can be challenging, but until you it's almost like it's the chicken and the egg. But until you start driving the revenue, you don't necessarily have the impetus from the clubs to say we're going to invest in this, because they don't necessarily see the degree of what the value is, and it just comes round and round and round.
Speaker 4:I think the thing that would have to happen for that to happen in general and this is the same as a hockey team gets better when they get better talent on their team and more talent on their team I think the higher price talent that you could attract on the business side, I think and not even higher price, but just high impact people I think that will be the people that will help elevate things, because I firmly look at it, that it's on the content teams and the communications teams and the marketing teams to explain this. It's not on the general manager's job to necessarily or the owner's job to necessarily understand it automatically. I think it's really on that. I think that what we've seen with soccer is that there is an appetite for this worldwide. Obviously, hockey is global, not as global as soccer is, but it's still a very global sport.
Speaker 4:But I think the thing that we've seen is in general and this is like a fun little factoid that I always find interesting is, if you go on YouTube and you have YouTubers that do movie reaction channels, that they will use bits and pieces so they don't violate copyrights and they will watch and react to Braveheart or Gladiator or whatever it is, and you watch the reactions and they're like, oh my God, or whatever it is. It's so authentic that these get a lot of views. And no disrespect to any of these folks. These are nobodies. These are not people that would otherwise be known if it wasn't for their YouTubes.
Speaker 4:And nobodies might be a strong word, but they're not of a platform, of a pro athlete.
Speaker 4:Is that? There's no reason that you can't have three hockey players sitting on a sofa after a game and reacting to watching Mighty Ducks. Maybe have one of the European guys who's never seen Mighty Ducks watch it for the first time, or have an American and a Russian watch Miracle together or something like that and see what the reactions would be. There's no reason that you can't have things like that, that, even if they're not household names. It could prove the appetite where this is interesting, even if people are not inherently fans of the sport. So I think the long way of saying that is that it all ties back to money again, as things tend to do. But I think that it's the chicken and the egg that once a company starts investing, or seeing the need to invest, and they start getting proof on it and proof of the concept, you'll start seeing more success, which is going to branch out to more things, which is going to branch out in more ways, and that's going to lead to more clubs copying them, and it's going to be a cycle that way.
Speaker 3:So, based on what you just said there, the numbers you had said 10 minutes prior 40 million, a hundred million generated for the Vegas golden Knights. Nick, you're you've built working in hockey right now. You see the salaries in working in sport. You're not making hundreds of thousands of dollars, typically as a social media manager or one of the coordinators, but so what's stopping a team from hiring three, four, five, six social media coordinators and crushing every other NHL team, for instance, because, nick, you know there's availability out there? Do you think it would work?
Speaker 1:I think it would definitely help. I think it would go a long way. But I'll go back to what Dan said a little bit ago on it's educating the people at the top and the right people of this. It's educating the people at the top and the right people of this. I've worked with junior teams who have been absolutely gung-ho done everything right, done great partnerships together. Like you said with the Ergonauts example, something so easy and seems brain-dead simple got them 50 extra ticket sales and it's such an easy partnership. On the flip side, I've worked with teams who overvalue where they're at and they say, well, you have to pay us for us to work with you. Why would we work with you? Or the team You're just a platform that has 40 times the size of us following Like, why would we work with you? Or on the flip side, I've done it with teams who don't understand the value of the partnership and you know they mess things up and you know kind of just misguided in how they approach those partnerships and if you don't go full fledged at something, it's not going to work. So I think there's a lot of teams have tried different things here. Example again with the Argos. A lot of teams have tried stuff with that, but not always with the right person, not always the right approach, not always the right way. I think we need to educate more on the success stories and the examples, like both of you have given so far, to showcase what can be done, how it should be done and, overall, just better educate on the power of social media, the influence of social media, etc. There For my example, I'll use with working in hockey.
Speaker 1:I shared a job post a couple weeks ago that you know got a little bit lucky. It went a little bit viral. We got call it 275,000 views on Instagram. I got 5,500 followers directly from that post. I won't mention the team, but one of the teams who had a job posting in that reached out. They weren't happy that they got so many applicants for their jobs and it's like okay, well, you had what 36 applicants like through your posting I amplified it. It hit 275,000 people who you got to assume most of them are the right people. They're following a hockey page. They saw this hockey page got 5,500 new followers for it, so they're aligning with the page. They're seeing this. It's the right audience and your concern is that now you have too many applicants to sift through for your HR team Like. I think it's the education and understanding of the power of social media and how it can get you to the right people. That's what some of these teams are missing.
Speaker 3:Heaven forbid you drive too much attention to someone's job posting.
Speaker 1:Hey, Like oh my gosh, no, no, the recruiter's gonna have to read resumes today. How weird is that?
Speaker 3:like that's. That is, on its own, probably one of the best stories I've heard. Just you know, sorry for doing my job exceptionally well. Yeah, yeah, like yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:It's crazy, but that's just kind of the mindset of a lot of these teams. Right, they, like dan, said they, they know what they like and they've done it for 100 years and you know that's how they operate and they don't like change. They don't like things out of their control, which I can understand. But, to quote the great Jeff Merrick, tradition is just peer pressure from dead people. So tradition, sometimes we can adapt, sometimes we can evolve, and this is an area that I definitely think we should.
Speaker 4:And just to follow up on that too is that I think sometimes hockey people will see the NBA as an example and they'll say we don't want to be the NBA and they'll just kind of recoil in that regard. I think it's understanding from the other side of it that, yes, we want to advocate for this, but that we need to do this in a measured capacity. We're not going to be the NBA, we don't have to be the NBA, that if the NBA is here and the NHL is here, we don't need to be there. Maybe we could be there, maybe we could be there, and that's still more than where we were at. And I think, along with that, I think what happens is is I think there could be a tendency sometimes and it can be very easy to do this is to look at other hockey teams. So you'll see a hockey team that will look at its metrics and compare it to other hockey teams. But if you have an original six team, they're probably going to have more followers and impressions than a team in a small to mid-market in the Midwest. They're probably going to and they'll say we're going great because, look it, we're number five in the league in followers. They're not necessarily comparing themselves to the other teams in their markets and other sports. They're comparing apples to oranges sometimes. I think what happens with that is that it's not necessarily always realizing what the potential is, because you think that we're doing fine already, but it becomes an eco-chamber. It can become an eco-chamber where you're only looking at each other and you don't see how things could be.
Speaker 4:I know for me in my career where I was with the Vegas Golden Knights but before I came back to the Coyotes, I was with the Draft Kings and the Perth Football Hall of Fame, which were in sports but were football sports betting completely different. And I know for me it completely changed the way I looked at analytics, completely changed the way I looked at strategy, just because not because we had done anything wrong in hockey. If anything, there would probably be a lot of things that folks at DraftKings or the Perfable Hall of Fame can learn from hockey. But it exposed me to thinking that I had never seen before. It exposed me to thinking I mean our analytic people at MIT. They could run circles around me. They were all at DraftKings, they were all from MIT. It was like Goodwill Hunting's down the hall, Just like dribbling. They were the Harlem Globetrotters on analytics just dribbling the ball around me like crazy.
Speaker 4:But even if I picked up a small kernel of that which I think I picked up at least a small kernel of that it kind of showed that there could be that way.
Speaker 4:So I think are important but at the same time doing it in a way that isn't just saying okay, we're going to take somebody from this brand who knows nothing about hockey at all and bring them into this and they're going to ask the general manager to do X, y and Z with players that the general manager is never going to agree to ever. It's people that have the understanding of the culture of the sport but also have been exposed to the outside enough to be able to bring in a lot of those new ideas and really show people I said it's all about safety and being measured that you don't need to be the NBA. You could be here and you could still be better. It's not about you beating the NBA, it's about you being the best version of yourself, and I think if that was a value that could really be drilled in the league just be the best you can be. I think that would allow people to look at things and say we don't need a grand slam but a bunch of singles is still pretty good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and on the point of being the best that you can be, this social media that we've now all been exposed to allows guys like coach chippy to have the arguably one of the biggest followings in the hockey world, where I believe his name's nags the hockey goalie and I like. There's those social media content creators that I think might be what GMs are afraid of guys doing, but it's proof in the pudding that there's an appetite for hockey content out there. You know, a guy like Curtis Gabriel, who isn't even playing right now, is still driving a ton of attention with Brock McGillis, who's going to be coming on the show in a couple weeks, but there's a huge desire for this there. The two of you have proved this out over the past 40 minutes for sure.
Speaker 3:I'd love to use these last 5-10 to have each of you highlight maybe your favorite creators within the social media world where you see this space going, if you see or have any suggestions, recommendations. And then, finally, we typically wrap up on the Athletes Podcast by asking our guests their biggest piece of advice for the next generation of athletes. Maybe we can add a little asterisk here to make it social media specific, so that they can take advantage of, if they are a 15 year old, if they are an 18, 12 year old right now, building their brand, so that when they are the number one player in the NHL, they can look back to this conversation and be like, hey, I am the authority figure, I am number one. I'm going to do this and you guys are going to have to listen to me because I am the best and you're not going to cut me.
Speaker 4:The biggest way I see the industry going, and which I'll lead into advice as well, is the combining of streaming and content. I think that for a generation, cable was the primary way that people consumed information about their teams and this is the first time in 40 years that's changed, I think without another history lesson for me but I do believe that history does repeat itself is that every time things just before cable TV, the last time it changed was radio, when radio became a thing that completely changed things, that you always have somebody who adopts this early and does it the right way, that back in the 30s, when radio came out, the St Louis Cardinals had a frequency from Colorado to Florida and there were no teams in the South, so they became the team of Texas and Arkansas and Oklahoma because they were available. When cable TV became a thing, the Atlanta Braves were on TVS and Superstation. So growing up in New Jersey, I could watch the Mets, the Yankees or the Braves, or somebody in Boston could watch the Red Sox or the Braves.
Speaker 4:Now we have that change again to streaming and when streaming is a thing, yes, it's on TV, but it's also so much more mixed to being online and related to content and not only watching a game for two and a half hours but getting snippets and getting little pieces and getting clips that are broken down. I think the biggest thing I see is the balance of importance or the balance of power in terms of importance shifting more to the content teams as cable becomes less of a thing, as cable becomes less of a thing, and I think what it will allow is teams to really solidify themselves more, and kind of piggybacking on that idea of driving revenue has the ability to improve your team Once you start including what used to be your cable TV deal now being a streaming deal, whether with your own platform or with a Netflix or Disney plus or an Amazon or whoever. You're not talking big league money, you're talking now.
Speaker 4:And I think that is one of the biggest things I'm going to that I think we're going to see over the next 10 years. I think, looking back, that will be the story of the 2020s that when we look back on the 2020s, I think my advice for the, for the 15-year-olds, is that you've probably been told to be careful, and it's true, but what I would say is be intentional with what you do. That doesn't mean that you can't go on social and make a comment about a TV show or whatever the case may be. It doesn't necessarily mean you need to hire a social team to create content for you, but starting to understand, as you understand what you are as a person which is part of growing up at the age that you're at, you're understanding your values and what they are and what you want to represent, and really learning that that's what you want to represent online, and it doesn't necessarily have to be every thought that comes to your mind has to go on social. It's fine to keep things in a text message, conversation with friends, and not only in terms of not wanting to step in hot water or something of that nature, but also just in terms of intentionally building your presence so people know what you stand for, as opposed to just a bunch of disjointed thoughts, is that I think knowing that you can keep some things online and some things offline, and understanding who you are as a person, being self-aware, I think will allow you to find that voice that you want to be.
Speaker 4:And it doesn't have to be the biz, it doesn't have to be the Lundquist, it doesn't have to be the Brad Martian. It could be whoever you are. And I think the same way I think back of being that age. That's when I was learning what my values were. That age that's when I was learning what my values were. As you learn, your values is try to have that reflect in your social uh, if you are on social, because that's how people will get to know you and when people get to know you, that's what will attract the right sponsors, the right fan base, the right nature and that genuine nature. So I would say be intentional in that regard, but also have fun while doing it bang on.
Speaker 3:I love, I love it, dude. Thank you First off for being so detailed in your answers too. I love the history lessons. Those are legit, nick.
Speaker 4:Oh, I'm such a history nerd. It's, it's. I worked for the Perfable Hall of Fame, you know. I could basically be a tour guide there. I history is kind of my thing.
Speaker 3:Dude it's. We need that. We need that we're in such a consume at all costs world and everyone's just doom scrolling there's legs to being able to listen to what's happening in the past, the most random historical hockey note possible let's do it oh, I love this.
Speaker 4:so sydney crosby, when he when they won the cup in 2009, the announcement is he's the youngest captain ever to win the stanley. It's actually not true. The captain of the 1896 Montreal Victorias was a couple months younger. His name was Mike Grant. He was a blacksmith on the side and he had a mustache like a steamboat salesman, like a steamboat sailor. So the fun trivia, though, to relate that to more modern times, is so Mike Grant who's in the Hockey Hall of Fame fame, by the way, as that was the youngest captain to win the stanley hub in 1896. He was born only the 1870s is that his son was a baseball executive and actually won the world series in 1969 with the miracle mets and putting the team together. So fun little trivia is that by being a nerdy history guy, I learned that, uh, believe it or not, a blacksmith Talk about hockey players coming from all walks of life the youngest captain to ever win the Stanley Cup was a blacksmith in the offseason.
Speaker 3:Here he was, nick. I was like man, vancouver Millionaires, victoria Cougars. I'm like holy dino. We're pulling out the archives here. I love it.
Speaker 4:This is what I grew up on.
Speaker 3:I love it. I love it. This is so hype. Uh yo nick, what do you got, man? I know you've got some knowledge here that you're going to drop here yeah, I don't have any, uh, I don't have any cool blacksmith stories.
Speaker 1:But uh, to answer on uh kind of just creators, like you said, I think there's a lot of different ways that you can create content today and I think they all again kind of funnel back to entertain or educate. You mentioned Coach Chippy or Negs or those guys. Those guys do a phenomenal job of entertaining and I think there's a large appetite for people to consume that and do that today. I think of people like Kevin Weeks, who we mentioned, or my buddy, johnny Lazarus, who they cover the game a little bit more. So it's more on the educator and form side of things, but they still have fun with it, right, they still entertain, they still keep it loose.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of different ways to make content today. There's no one right or wrong way to do it. I think that would be a good message to people. You don't have to follow somebody else's blueprint. But, with that being said, we all consume content. I always say that you have to analyze content to be able to create content. If you want to start a newsletter, you better damn well be reading other newsletters for three to six months before that to know what other people are doing, to pick up on what they're doing well, what they're doing wrong.
Speaker 1:If you're starting a job with the Pro Football Hall of Fame, check out the Hockey Hall of Fame, check out the Baseball Hall of Fame, like, check out what other people are doing. What other content is in that space? We all consume content. We all think we know what good content is. Or you know, oh, I want to be like that guy. I want to post on LinkedIn, like Dan does. I want to start a podcast, like David does. We all see that stuff. We consume it, but you have to really analyze it to understand it before you start creating it, to understand it before you start creating it. Otherwise, you can look like just a talking head, and that's what athletes don't want to become right. That's what the teams don't want their guys or girls to become today. So if you consume content, analyze it before creating it.
Speaker 3:Love that, yo. I think of even a third person that's breaking down, educating at the same time, who I wouldn't have guessed 10 years ago would start doing. That is Sean Avery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly, and it's kind of in that middle again of entertaining and educating, right Like he's having fun with it. People like listening to him. He's maybe a bit of a hothead, temperamental, which makes it a little entertaining. You know, he went from yelling at people in the bike lane to breaking down game film. So there's a million and one ways to make content.
Speaker 4:There's no right or wrong way to do it, but you've got to understand how and why others are doing it before you can just hop on and be successful at it. One of the things, even echoing Sean Avery, I find interesting. So 10 years ago I actually interviewed him for ESPNcom. I actually ended up on his living room sofa and we discussed a variety of topics. And one of the things that I was struck by discuss a variety of topics and one of the things that I was struck by he's a really smart guy. As he's a really smart guy and he's a very thoughtful guy. In a lot of what he does, I think there's obviously the element that when he played, he was an agitator and that was his job and he would do some of these things, I think, sometimes for effect, and that certainly that bluntness is going to always be part of his brand. It's going to follow him forever.
Speaker 4:But in terms of just being a thoughtful person, the story he told me that impacted him and it's like you always ask people what developed you and what impacted you. So the story he told was in training camp in 2001 with the Red Wings, is the morning of 9-11. He was on the ice and he knew something had happened because he saw people scurrying around, but he didn't really know what it was. So he looked at this as an opportunity to. He didn't know what was going on, but he knew that people were rattled and that might be an opportunity for him to establish himself. So he dropped the gloves with Darren McCarty and picked a fight with him, not realizing that Darren McCarty's one of Darren McCarty's friends was a New York firefighter as this was happening.
Speaker 4:And he said afterwards, when he found out, he felt like you know, not right away, but then when he moved to new york, he felt horrible about it because he started to understand the impact of 9-11 and some of those things and he kind of understood that other perspective and he said that that was something that he always kept in mind in terms of not knowing what other people were going through, that he was on the ice, didn't even know that 9-11 happened. Apparently Darren McCarty did. He could have never imagined, never imagined that the guy who might be struggling on the other side had a friend that was a firefighter in the middle of 9-11, what 9-11 could even be. That he could never even imagine that. So just the fact that he was able to reflect on that, I think showed a lot of thoughtfulness. I think the potential is there for him to grow, but, that being said, he needs to maybe avoid some of the missteps that he had on the microphone, maybe during his career.
Speaker 1:A phenomenal book, if you guys get time to check it out offside. I think it's called by Sean Avery Great book Love it, love it.
Speaker 3:Boys, this has been fun. I knew this was going to be different than conversations we'd had in the past, over the past five years, but so much value in these 52 minutes so far. Can't thank each of you enough for coming on. The Nick hundreds of thousands of impressions on every social platform. You seem to touch no big deal. Dan's LinkedIn influencer basically bookending every organization in the hockey world, seems like. Nowadays, where can we find you guys on socials?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no. Thanks again for having me on, david. This is a blast and great to chat more Dan here as well. Like I say, hockey Collective Instagram's our biggest platform, tiktok, twitter, all that fun jazz as well. Uh, working in hockey. I started about eight months ago. Continue to grow that. So if you're interested in working in the sport of hockey, be sure to check it out. We've got a podcast like this. We've got uh socials with you know about 16, 17 000 on instagram, 7 or 8 000 on linkedin here, and the newsletter is my Every week for free, on Mondays I send every open job in the hockey industry. So if you guys are interested in working in the hockey industry, check out that newsletter. It's totally free and saves you hours of doom scrolling looking for jobs on Indeed, linkedin or otherwise.
Speaker 4:I would say for me, I'm on most social platforms and I'm pretty responsive. I think, career-wise, linkedin would be the place to go that you guys mentioned, where I share a lot of anecdotes from my career and, I hope, some semi-entertaining stories. Sometimes, you know, you don't hit on all of them, as I would say LinkedIn. I would say I'm also on Twitter that I try to keep industry-related. You can get me on Instagram too, but you're not going to get much hockey on there. Instagram too, but you're not going to get much hockey on there. You're going to mostly get one of my hobbies is we mentioned the history stuff. I like to go to historical locations and where movies were filmed and you're going to get most of that on Instagram. If you're into that too, you could get me there. We can talk hockey if you want on Instagram, but that's where you get me, but for the hockey part, twitter and LinkedIn are the places to go.
Speaker 3:Hey, it's proof that there's a demand for everything in this world, whether it's history, he never would have thought that I went actually with the Golden Knights.
Speaker 4:we did a caravan through Utah in 2016. Of course you did, and the Sandlot was shown there and most people didn't know that. So we get out of our hotel at like 8 o'clock in the morning, I get an Uber at like 6.30 to take me over to the Sandlot and I take, you know, and I pay the guy a little extra money don't leave and I get out and I play the soundtrack of the sandlot as I walk around. A little lot like going through somebody's backyard to get there. Get right back.
Speaker 4:Oh it comes, bites you ball is honestly the fact that you had to go through a backyard to get on there. It was the most on-brand thing for the sandlot like that you could possibly get, and then I went back so I would share some of those things Years later in business settings. I found that people don't remember me for my work stuff.
Speaker 4:They're like oh yeah, you were the guy that went to the Sandlot, or you're the guy who went to I don't know, like the lighthouse where Forrest Gump ran across the country or something like that. In Maine Is that people remember you for some of the darndest things. So I would agree, even if it's not hockey-related. It's all about. We were talking about building who you are is. I don't know. I'm a nerd, so I've built who I am there, so it helps me build that.
Speaker 3:Hey, people follow people. That's what we all can agree with. Thank you, boys both, for your time. Appreciate it this has been the pod. That's the pod. Appreciate it. This has been the pod. That's the pod. Thanks, boys All right guys.
Speaker 2:That was the 251st episode of the Athletes Podcast. Hope you guys enjoyed. Thank you again for tuning in. I hope you liked what Dan and Nick had to say. Again, can't thank them enough. They had so much great stuff to say. Working in sports, everything like that it's going to help so many people, I think, and what they're doing is fantastic. As Dave always says, this is not free. You do have to subscribe. We do have the athletes agreement, so hit that subscribe button helps us so much, helps us keep doing what we're doing, bringing so much content to you guys and and taking this to the next level. We enjoy it so much. So again, if you can like, subscribe, it helps a ton. If you got anything to say to in the comments, let us know. We're always looking for suggestions on what to do next, uh, so leave some feedback, leave some comments. It's it's gonna be great. Again. Thank you guys so much. Talk to you next week.
