How to Protect Your Brand with Intellectual Property Expert Steven Weigler
Jan 30, 2024Season 1Episode 214
Firing The Man
Embark on a journey with Steven Weigler, the genius behind Emerge Counsel, as we uncover the pivotal role of intellectual property in the entrepreneurial landscape. Steven recounts his own leap from the rigid world of corporate law to the exhilarating freedom of entrepreneurship. His story is a treasure trove for anyone considering the bold move to 'fire the man' and pursue their own business dreams, loaded with advice on the resilience and inventiveness this path demands.
Our discussion takes a deep look into the realm of e-commerce, highlighting how trademarks, trade dress, and distinct sounds can anchor a brand's identity and set it apart in a crowded digital marketplace. Steven sheds light on the nuances of Amazon's Brand Registry and offers strategic counsel for securing trademarks and patents that could be the difference between blending in and standing out. For those ready to protect the heartbeat of their brand and carve out a competitive edge online, this conversation is an invaluable guidepost.
Closing out our chat, Steven emphasizes the often-overlooked importance of choosing the right legal structure for your entrepreneurial venture. From aligning your business for future growth to preparing for a potential exit, he underscores the risks of ignoring legal planning. We also get a glimpse into Steven's world outside the office, from his current read to his passion for fitness and mixed martial arts. And for those looking to reach out to Steven or learn more about Emerge Counsel, all the details await in our show notes, ready to help you take that next step forward.
Embark on a journey with Steven Weigler, the genius behind Emerge Counsel, as we uncover the pivotal role of intellectual property in the entrepreneurial landscape. Steven recounts his own leap from the rigid world of corporate law to the exhilarating freedom of entrepreneurship. His story is a treasure trove for anyone considering the bold move to 'fire the man' and pursue their own business dreams, loaded with advice on the resilience and inventiveness this path demands.
Our discussion takes a deep look into the realm of e-commerce, highlighting how trademarks, trade dress, and distinct sounds can anchor a brand's identity and set it apart in a crowded digital marketplace. Steven sheds light on the nuances of Amazon's Brand Registry and offers strategic counsel for securing trademarks and patents that could be the difference between blending in and standing out. For those ready to protect the heartbeat of their brand and carve out a competitive edge online, this conversation is an invaluable guidepost.
Closing out our chat, Steven emphasizes the often-overlooked importance of choosing the right legal structure for your entrepreneurial venture. From aligning your business for future growth to preparing for a potential exit, he underscores the risks of ignoring legal planning. We also get a glimpse into Steven's world outside the office, from his current read to his passion for fitness and mixed martial arts. And for those looking to reach out to Steven or learn more about Emerge Counsel, all the details await in our show notes, ready to help you take that next step forward.
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast, a show for anyone who wants to be their own boss. If you sit in a cubicle every day and know you are capable of more, then join us. This show will help you build a business and grow your passive income streams in just a few short hours per day. And now your host serial entrepreneurs David Shomer and Ken Wilson.
Speaker 2:
Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast. On today's episode, we have the privilege to interview Steven Weigler. Steven specializes in the protection of brand, ip and other business assets. His entrepreneurial perspective building a startup, balanced by his role as senior counsel for a Fortune 50 technology company has allowed him to develop the skills required to be empathetic legal counsel. Steven started Emerge Counsel in 2015 with the mission to provide early to mid-stage businesses sophisticated counsel at a lower price point than large law firms. Total TM is his proprietary flat fee trademark prosecution system. He also likes to kickbox, ski and listen to live music. Welcome to the show, steven. Good to see you guys. To kick off the show, can you share with our listeners a little bit about your background and your path into becoming an IP attorney?
Speaker 3:
Sure, so I have a pretty extensive business background focused on things that really were barely complicated. I started out just getting my advocacy skills as being I wanted to be a big city prosecutor, and so I actually was a prosecutor in Miami, florida, where I learned just mental toughness and how screwed up the world can be. After having been, I went to school in Colorado, at the University of Colorado, and so we moved back here and I was lucky enough to get a. At the time telecom was a huge. I was able to get a job in telecom working for AT&T Corporation, and so at that point, if you notice, in my career I was really like focused on big entities. I thought you know a working inside the system, even that before that I worked for US Congress. So it's like everything was inside the system working and I realized like, hey, inside the system you have, you're in a lane and if you get out of your lane it's not necessarily prosperous for you. In the organization they're like it's not that different than Army or something. If you're an inventory, they don't want you checking out well, how's the aircraft carriage? So on. You know it's really. I found it kind of exciting that I learned so much about a large corporation's handle, especially technology issues, found it also a little bit frustrating always having to be in my life. Anyway, long story short, at&t got bought by SBC. It's still the same brand, so that's a good study and trademark, because the company's not the same, just the name of the company. I got an exit package. I took it. I started a predictive analytics company, did that for eight years and started it from seed all the way to. You know, we had some bumps in the road, no doubt, but seed to successful sale, built up, explaining technology, protecting technology, focusing on running a business, had to raise a lot of money, so I know a lot about investor relations. Anyway, when I upseted that and again it was a good, bad and the thing and the ugly I took my wife told me like he can't sit in the basement forever, take what you know, write it down in a piece of paper emerge consoles a combination of business and IP services focused on the early stage to mid stage, small to medium size business, entrepreneur providing, I think, really empathetic, if anything, services because I have a lot of business experience and IP experience at a lower price point than large comprehensive law, and so that's who we are.
Speaker 4:
So, steve, I think it's fair to say that you fired the man. You were working in a large organization and then you bet on yourself and started your own business. Do I have that right? Absolutely twice. We have to pause here and talk a little bit about that. It is the firing in the end podcast. So can you walk us through what was going through your mind, like going into am I really going to do this? Am I going to fire the man and go out on my own? What were you thinking? What would be some advice that you would give to that younger self?
Speaker 3:
It's kind of what I talk about in my introductory call, which is always complimentary to my potential clients because I need to get to know them. Like, do they have really the grit, the ability to pull something? That's pretty hard to take that leap. And so I just knew that I get really frustrated when I can't truly problem sell. A corporation doesn't generally hire you, especially at a C. I wasn't C level but I was high enough level, mid-level intellectual management, high level attorney. There they're hiring you to solve a problem, but there's so many guardrails to solve that problem that it's really and there's so many politics involved that it really doesn't come become about solving. And this is nothing against ATT, it's just it's the way a large corporation is an enterprise. You know they don't need you or they at least they don't think they need you to reinvent the like, it's really like all right. Well, we have this issue in this place. And so I think if you have a sense of frustration that you really want to problem sell and really build something especially you know entrepreneurs don't only problem sell, they build that and so if you really have that kind of drive fire in your belly that you think you could do it better and really, if the guardrails were taken off and you got the creative space to really get from point A to point B. Being an entrepreneur is an amazing thing for you, but there's things that come along with it uncertainty, sometimes, self doubt, a lot of times. You know building up, then you have to be open to building up the other skills that it takes to make your company successful. I would say, because I speak to a number of entrepreneurs, especially in the e-commerce space, at least two, three times a day, and if they're, if they're kind of closed minded like, if they're like no, this is what I'm going to do. You know, have this self figured out. I worked at tires plus or something and I know what tires are all about Then then then you know that's really like a question that if that's the right type of entrepreneur that can really get from point A to point B. Because ultimately, all we want for our clients and all we want, I think, an entrepreneur wants, is to grow a company. Either for it could be a cash cow, like you know, they grow it. They are living off the proceeds of their, their hard work, or they get to the point that they sell it. It doesn't really matter from a. This is a well operating company, a well oil machine, a well, a well executed business plan, and so if you get to that point that you're looking for that, you want to get there as fast as possible or as efficiently as possible, without the volicles of hair that have fallen out of my eye, you know. So the point is is that it's really that's what we're looking for, not that I I'm just a service provider, but that's what I'm kind of see in entrepreneurs that are successful in the, especially in the e-commerce space. They're a little open minded, they're willing to take study about things that they don't know, they're willing to take advice from people that have been around the block many times, or even instructors of it. So, again, a good entrepreneur has to be fairly open minded but fairly, almost stubborn, that they have viable business plan and that they have the drive and the secrets to get from 0.8 to 1.8.
Speaker 4:
Okay, no, I could not let that opportunity pass by without asking you about that, asking you about the firing demand day and talking about those entrepreneurs. Most of our listeners are entrepreneurs and they either have businesses or are thinking about starting businesses. Can you speak to the importance of intellectual property? What value does that bring to a company? Also, could you comment on like types of intellectual property and what people should care about?
Speaker 3:
I picked the field to especially focus on intellectual property because it's abstract and keeps me stimulated, and also I have a tech background in the most videos, intellectual property. So the point in intellectual property if I were an entrepreneur, or I ask an entrepreneur, do you have the cure for cancer? And if they say yeah, I have a cure for cancer, they're probably not a right client for me, because they need a biotech team, they need millions of dollars, they need to get a partnership with a distribution channel. The point is, most of our clients in e-commerce don't have the cure. What is it? What is the essence of what's going to make them? So the point is, if you have the cure for cancer, well, let's have a different podcast to talk about that, but it's really, it's not my field and most people don't have it and it doesn't care. No one cares what it's called. You get the patent, you're going to be really successful because that's going to solve a world problem, but most of us don't. And so what is a distinguisher? Why would a someone buy something of yours in e-cars more than you would buy something of someone else? And that has to be some elements of intellectual property that make that true. The elements of intellectual property usually that are the most important are brand, brand carry. When you go to the grocery store and you look for cookies, you could buy a knockoff of an Oreo cookie. Now, most of us don't why. Because we know it's not like Oreos. I mean, they're very tasty but it's not like because we immediately see them in the store, we know what they are, we know that if I close my eyes and we all close our eyes and we say Oreo, we know that we're talking about two delicious black cookies. They have a spin-off, but the main cookie is a black, dark chocolatey cookie and some frosting in the middle, some funky design on it. That's an Oreo cookie and we can close our eyes. All know, even though we haven't met, we're not in the same city, whatever we all know what an Oreo cookie is. That's great, brand right. But Oreo has to protect every element of that intellectual property through trademark processes or something called trade dress, to make sure that they are the only ones that can distinguish their brand through that. So if you're starting a brand, if you're starting a yeah, you would be starting a brand on Amazon. It's either going to be, it's going to be, a product that has a niche. Usually is what I know about most of my Amazon's or e-commerce, ebay or Shopify, it doesn't matter, you're not out there trying to compete with Macy's and out of a million skews. You have a niche and you have a identified audience that you want to identify with your product. And so that's trademark to protect brands. And so distilling elements of that brand now because, like, look, oreo didn't start out with double stuff and now it's on. What was it? That's not in the store, candy cane flavored. That's how they built off their brand. They started with Oreo. And so you know what is? What's your minimum viable products? What products do you think are going to sell? And Amazon itself, if you saw on, amazon requires you to get something. You have to get on the brand registry. And you have to get on the brand registry by registering a trademark otherwise, and there's substantial benefits that come along with that. So the first thing we always kind of look at is what's your brand? What? Who's your viable? What's your minimum viable product? What's your? Or, if you're an experienced seller, what's selling? What are the elements of that product that need to be protected? It's usually going to be a name, sometimes it's a logo. Sometimes, if you're doing creative work, it could be sound like think about on HBO, you know, before any HBO's program starts they have that like. It's almost like, sounds like static, and then it goes into a little tune. That's trademark and it can be what's called trade dress and trade dresses. For example, look at the Louis Vuitton bag. Why do people buy? There's plenty of good bags on Amazon, but people love Louis Vuitton and the pay prime dollar has nothing to do with the functionality. The Louis Vuitton bag there's better bags on Amazon, most likely for quality. It's all about the look and feel, the non-functional element to wrap. So when we close our eyes again we say Louis Vuitton, I can picture these brown. You know I'll be all over. The bag looks like a little alligator. That's trade dress and so that is protected. So trust me, louis Vuitton doesn't rely on their name or rely even on their ink tags as much as they rely on what that trade dress is. So everyone and depending on what your category is meaning, what you're selling. So if it's cosmetics, if it's handbags, if it's, we've done tools, we've done things for I mean, we've done so many. But everyone has like a niche and so we kind of know an good idea. Attorney knows the formula kind of for that niche, that industry, when we're coming at a trademark on play, that's an important piece of IP. I'll just whip through the other can continue on. Patent is a really. We talked about the cure for cancer. If you have the cure for cancer, patent would be a really good idea. Patent protects either inventions, substantial improvements on the invention. The problem with patent is you're not protecting the actual product, you're protecting the invention that's contained inside the product and that gets really complicated and very expensive. There's something called the design patent which protects, like for example, the Apple iPad, how those are designed. It's not that they you can, they invented how you can hear on your headphones, it's the design of the headphones. The point on that and the same with the point on trademark. You need a strategy, like you just don't. So I get a lot of calls live file that provisional path, that and radio. I'm not sure what will work better in the bathroom, provisional patent or the toilet paper. No strategy, no, no game. The third is copyright. Copyright protects original works of art. You can copyright code. So some of your clients have a code element. It's a really good copy. I think it's a good, cheap strategy. I mean you can copyright your product packaging. I would love you there's. It really is a strategy that kind of fits very well into your branding strategy, really taking a look at the copyright. And the fourth is called trade secret. So trade secret is, I think, hard underutilized and it really focuses on, like the Coca Cola of no one didn't do any pat that I know of. They did some on bottles and stuff. But the point is this formula, coca-cola, which is their secret sauce. They just kept very secret. So each blender doesn't know, like, if you're selling cinnamon, which I think is in Coke. They don't know that vanilla is. They're not the vanilla vatterns, they do. Things are very secret to make sure that the secret sauce of the product doesn't leak out. So you take those four things together and you integrate it into what we call an intellectual property plan. A lot of times in e-commerce it's not bad and trademark really carries we see some copyright and we identify some pieces of copyright and trade secret. You know it when you got it. It's something that I'll identify, but it's not for every, it's most people. It's not a secret, it's a brand play really, and so you have to add. Those are the questions I would suggest that your listeners ask and so that they can do on a free call with us and you know we can set them in the right direction. Over the last, on those four things, over the last years, we talked a little bit about total TM and what I did is there's really, in my opinion, there's one right way to file and protect and register a trademark. There's shortcuts. You can go on legal Zoom, there's filing services and there's attorneys that say it'll do it for $95. But you need to do a full search to see what's. It's called an algorithmic search and humans can't even really think this this clearly to see, to slice and dice what you're thinking your brand is. So mine is total TM. Say someone has that might at the at the patent and trademark office that might hit violating their trademark by filing this other trademark. I mean, that doesn't sound like something that you would think about as a human. That's something that an algorithmic search would help you lead towards and maybe they never even filed a trademark. But you could be setting yourself up for a big piece of litigation and the bad part about it is not that you might not win it, it's that you might not find out for two, three years, sometimes five, and so you're like busy, like growing your brand, everything. You did this full search. You didn't do the process right. You think all's good because you have this trademark and the next thing you know you're facing a cancellation, proceeding in a possible court case because they have prior rights and your march is confusing. So I can encourage you, so what we did and I can encourage your listeners enough is really like we all kind of, if you're to leak legit, we all kind of do it the right way. And that includes thorough placement, thorough search, really understanding what your brand is, really understanding the description, what you're using it for, using a lot of software to do some predictive analytics, which includes AI, and then using software to monitor to make sure that we get it through as quickly as possible and read and keep the registration going, etc. So that's our total TM product and we priced it, you know, to be liberally fair to the entrepreneur, like I found that was losing money. So the idea is. But the idea is it's really, it's a really good. I kind of productize the process to do a really thorough trademark prosecution.
Speaker 2:
So two follow up questions. So, stephen, can you share the price on the podcast or do the audience members need to set up a call?
Speaker 3:
Well, it differs depending on the complexity of the application and what I say it. Why I say that is there's something called it. If you're actually using the mark, it runs about close to $2,000 on all in if you including the USPTO piece, if you, if you don't, if it's called an intent to use, well, then you have to prove use later on and that is like a multiple other steps. So it had about three to five on average, but it can. It just depends like if you're like well, no, I'm going to do this in two and a half years and we have to file five extension explain each time why we're extending. You know it's like a lot of client communication that you know price goes up a little bit.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, fair enough. So around 2000 to hire if it's not in use and there's more time for your for your team.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, the big piece. When your client listeners are doing apples to apples, they might go on the internet and say, well, that's ridiculous. So this person you know it's doing, for 500 bucks, the full algorithmic surge. Most firms cost charge $1800 for that because it's like it's number one, it takes a ton at a ton and number two it's it's not. The software itself is expensive and so they're not doing that. Yeah, I mean we can, we can validate by for you in 15 minutes. We're just not going to end as a philosophy. We're just not going to do that because, although we make a lot of money when it's litigation, I don't mind that.
Speaker 2:
It's very interesting, it's actually it's not good for the world, totally agree, and David and I have both in our personal businesses, have had issues in the past with IP, and you know skimping on this is for. This is advice for health listeners. Skimping out on a few hundred dollars to to to wiggle around something is not worth it for IP because years later you're here going to pay 10 times or 20 times that or not be able to use the IP at all, and so I would definitely encourage the listeners to not skim by on on IP and and make sure they they do everything they need to do on that and on the on the front side of it. So another follow up question is you, you've covered kind of like the four, the four main branches, if you will on on IP protection and can you describe to the listeners like, say they're, you know they're e-commerce sellers. They're just starting out. Maybe they got a few products on Amazon and they don't have a trademark. What does the roadmap look like for them and what would be the, the steps one, two and three to kind of start protecting their brand? What, what, what, your steps, what would you advise?
Speaker 3:
I think it's important to have a call with intellectual property attorney to identify their brand. Usually that's not that hard to do I realize that it's like the name of my sweaters are kidding, okay, kidding slickers, but really and then make sure that we're not going to see any carnage when we're we're working with the process. Amazon, I picked Sellerator and the brand registry now off. As soon as we can get this, the trademark file, you get a serial number and you can get on the brand registry. So there's no real competitive advantage. We do compete on price compared to on Amazon. Brand accelerator we're, and I think we're. I mean, that's just my personal view, but the combination is so we can do the same thing. We can get the trademark serial number within days of engaging. That search takes about two to three days and identifying the brand takes next to no time and getting a search opinion takes you we're talking about a week and we all be on the brand registry. For you know and I look at it like you have to look at your trademarks as phase one, phase two, phase three. Phase one is just the plan. What is your master brand? What are you going to call it? Like Adidas, that's the master brand. Now Adidas might have 50 brand, 100,000 brand shoes. You know, the first one is you got to get the major brand and so you and maybe that's. And I also think that the logo I'm a kind of a anti-trademarking logo at the if it's an early stage entrepreneur, because I think you know this comes to marketing, but brand experience has changed so you have to test the marketplace a little bit. I don't. You know, we see logos change and you're filing a trademark for what it is. You can't be like oh, you know, I changed it a little, but they're like well, that's the USPT is like well, too bad, so said, that means you're not using the first one that you filed, that's canceled, and the second one filing a new application. We want to talk about that a little bit and put it in our back pocket, but we're really looking. You know, tier one branding on this if it's an initial console, so just identifying it, getting mark on the brand registry, and then we have lots of experience on the brand registry, on how to explain it to the Amazon folks. Even organized, the entrepreneur is not spending all the time corresponding with the brand registry. Don't get wrong.
Speaker 4:
I agree with you on the benefits of brand registry. It used to be something that you would do to set apart, set yourself apart, and now, if you're a serious seller on Amazon, it's just about mandatory and to be competitive, and so I definitely agree with you there. Continuing our conversation about e-com what are some violations that you're seeing right now in the intellectual property based within e-commerce and what can sellers do to avoid those?
Speaker 3:
Well, we're seeing the biggest seller we're seeing, and that's a really big one is is knockoffs, counterfeiting from China. That takes up about half my day every day dealing with the issues. Now there's two ways to look at that. It's their URI product is getting knocked off or, as bad Amazon thinks, groups you into a group of products that they say are counterfeiting, because there's some really big companies out there that will that are relatively ruthless, just putting down every federal competitor you know, going to the courts and then taking you down. It goes back. My experience and my thoughts are it goes back to the very beginning Identify some distinguishing you could be selling. There's got to be some distinguishing element of your clipboard which you can identify, which makes your product unique. Talking, speaking with experience console like me, I can tell you what the potential out of something like that would be knocked off and what you can do to brand your product, like maybe, heat seal the logo or create a creative logo, heat seal it into the product and then, if we hit it to, to distinguish the product, and so that's that comes. Part of it just becomes at the IP plan, because a lot of these the one I'm working on right now the products were relatively generic. And the next thing you know there's a seizure of all these products because some big company said everyone maybe seven, more than that, 750 infringers infringed on this product and they just put together a list but they won't show anyone the list. So you just have to figure out that your because Amazon took you down. But if you can't distinguish what's what's unique aspects of your product, you can't get off that list because it looks like Amazon has a product and, I'm sorry, the person saying that you counterfeit it has a product and you have a product and they look an awful lot of light. So really distinguishing your product from the very beginning is crucial to both bending off the infringers and not being on the infringer list yourself. The second thing is you know this is not when you get into this. This area of a lot like what are the issues in intellectual property is not. I mean, you might say, dude, you know, I get it. Thank you, I really appreciate. It Sounds like you're a good intellectual property attorney. I think I could do this myself. You know, when it's like, it's just I saw clipboards and it's clipboard under Smith. So you know, go for it. You know, so they're like, do it yourself. This is once you get into this area of like ambulance that I infringe or I see infringers. This is not amateur. This is like as complicated international law as it yet you know maybe the war in Gaza or something. But the point is this is not amateur hour in international law because you know usually the infringers in a foreign country. If you're on that infringer list, they're accusing you usually of operating out of foreign country or supplying in a foreign country, which theoretically allowed my clients to don you know, meaning they order the products from China and so really, if you have a strategy at the beginning, it's going to be much easier to work that out, because this is kind of a mid-stage problem. If you don't, you know we're looking for elements of your intellectual property that could distinguish your brand and really be able to explain to a court or Amazon, which many times acts as a court, why those other products should be taken down. We also work with partners from search companies that will can identify the extent of the problem, meaning they can run searches and none of us can run that aren't even hasten, related and really tell who your infringers are and initiate much more than me writing, sitting and writing. You know 18 under letters, write takedown notices and monitor counter notices. So it's kind of like that's something you should call an attorney immediately. It's kind of like if you're hard taking it in the mouth and your heart starts murmuring, well, you don't go to WebMD, you call it a doctor. You know, really, there's not a lot of time. You could get a lot worse, a lot quicker. It could be nothing, but it could get you know a lot worse, a lot quicker. And when you're sitting, you know, in the stretcher with the art attack, that's not the best time to say I should have called that doctor. So it's not that different Meaning. It's like this product you start seeing like an infringer on Amazon or anywhere. You're probably looking at the tip of the ice like there's something going on and, yeah, it sucks. We can hold virtual hands and commiserate happened to a lot of my clients but it's not the time to shy away and hope that you know, put your head in your hands and hope that it doesn't, that this is just an anomaly. It might be, but usually not.
Speaker 2:
So that's interesting. You said about half of your time is spent on that type of stuff and so, yeah, I suspect that won't go away as Amazon is growing and more sellers are coming on and competition is more fierce kind of have to battle for your real estate, you know, and then everybody is copying everybody. And so interesting I'd like to pivot into. It seems like in the last year or so, every podcast episode we talk a bit about AI. It's just it's hitting pretty much every area, and so I'd like to pivot a little bit into AI. We've got some projects going on in our company and I know a lot of it. I would say most e-commerce sellers are actively using AI now, and so I'd like to cover a couple of topics with AI and I suspect it's probably a newer-ish face for IP law. Maybe AI is not, maybe it's been around for a little while, but in terms of images, like in video. So those are the two main things that we're using. We're using it a little bit on code, but mostly on images and video and also copy. And so let's say, for example, we generate. We have an active project in our company right now. We're generating AI images for a project. Can those AI images be copyright?
Speaker 3:
So it's a really good question that the course haven't fully fleshed out, most recent guidance from and I'm just trying to think what circuit it was. So the United States is separated into various circuits and so St Louis is a different circuit than Denver. So each circuit has their own say on this. But if it's completely generated by a computer, the answer is no, because it's not an original work of art, because it wasn't created by a person. Is the general guidance that I've been seeing out of court. So now if you modify it or you put inputs in like I want a purple dress, berry to red horns, you know, if you start putting some creative human element into it, the verdicts out. I think that would be considered protectable. It's a really challenging area of law right now, not so much so. Then you got to look at it like this way and I certainly do is wow, what, what an amazing like I just I get so many of the same trade. I'll just tell my person I get so many of the same trademark questions. And then so I loved my whole practices based on building real, legitimate, meaningful relationship. If you can't build a meaningful relationship with an attorney, you probably have a probably not a great experience and you probably, like God, that's the last person I, you know someone like me. I want to help someone get from point A to point B and be there when they're at point B, and so on and so forth, and that requires a tremendous amount of building relationship. But still I get the same questions all the time and it's like you know I could tell I could do them in my search. So I'm using AI now to answer the questions and then I'm going to take them and put my own custom spin on the questions based on the information I'm getting from from AI. And I think that's how you really have to look at it. And I know you know when you get into hardcore legal, there's attorneys here in Colorado. There's to happen in New York. They they write their briefs on AI, the sites that are generated. A site means like where, where would it exactly say this so a court could check out if you're not bullshitting them? Well, they did, that sites are being made up and that attorneys are getting disbar. So I don't think courts are particularly favorable on AI, I think you know, and ultimately they really, I guess, do matter, because it's like you're talking about intellectual property. Who's going to decide. I think there's kind of sour on AI. So I think you you know everything with like a little random sell. It's an amazing tool. It's going to give you ideas. I look at it like the encyclopedia on steroids. It's going to give you amazing ideas. It's going to give you amazing thoughts and you take those and you customize them and you make them your own and that's otherwise. The market's probably going to kill you anyway because anyone else can go and get that description. But I know I've been cranking away on these questions. It's been great. Otherwise I have to sit down and think about well, here's what this case says about it, or here's what the legal ones, like the media, said how do I explain that to a consumer where it gets on much easier with AI? I think it's tremendous. Just take the next step. Put your own personal spin on.
Speaker 2:
So just to follow up or finish up on this piece, an AI generated image or video or whatever, as long as you're crafting it like inputs and you're kind of guiding it into what you want it to create. You think that is depending on which area you live in, in which district or whatever circuit, it'll probably be able to get copyrighted.
Speaker 3:
I think the argument is no different than Adobe Illustrator or WN Design. But the question is the other question is well, and this is some brain scratching question is look how much how AI was developed. It was developed by dumping a ton of data into Adobe programs and then it's pulling from the data that was. So the question is well, what's the data that was put in there? Was that copyrighted? And that answer we don't know. You have to do some real good investigation on them, and so part of it is we'll submit it to the copyright office and see, but part of it is those are the types of cases that are coming up when our artist is like well, this was copyrighted, I see it in chat, gbgt, and then the next thing you know it's like somebody used it. Add up chat, and then the next thing you know they're getting scared. So you just have to be very careful. You know it's like this, just like why can price it? Where I price? It's like we use really sophisticated software to, but we don't cook corn. That's the bandwidth. So if you're going to, you know this is your logo, for maybe a little more combination, do diligence and we can do logo searches easily, customizing it and using AI as an idea. But that's, I think, the issues.
Speaker 4:
Well, I know we've talked about Emerge Council at different points throughout the episode, but at what stage of entrepreneurship should people be getting in touch with you? What type of clients do you work with, and if there's any services that you offer that you haven't commented on, could you chat about those?
Speaker 3:
Actually I have to finish it, but I'm running an ebook about. The ebook is about everyone that starts a business has a goal, and it's really what's your. Encourage entrepreneurs to look at what's your end goal for this business, is it? You know? Do you want to make a million dollars a year? Do you want to exit? What's your end goal? And really work from the back to the beginning is like all right. So the first stage is always to organize properly. So, for example, a lot of people are like, well, I just need to form an LLC. Okay, well, that might be true or might not be, but your organizational structure there's a lot of variables and really it's something to talk out. But you talk about kind of having an idea of what you're at the end and so, if it's, you need to raise money. Well, don't, don't do my initial advice without doing more. Don't do an LLC Like that's going to be a nightmare and then converting the LLC to a corporation. So really there's various stages and various points where you need specific legal advice on certain things, because that's the time you should be thinking of. If you're going to, if you think you do have the care for cancer and play, then we should be done up very early because you can release the product If you think you're going to be selling internationally. Really, talking about the international brand protection strategy early on is an important piece. If you're talking about the, you know we talked about tiered branding. If you're talking about tier one branding, well, you would think about that at a certain time. I'm tier two branding at a certain time, tier three branding at a certain time. So, anyway, I'll find all these kind of steps for the business and the IP steps and when I, if I were an entrepreneur which I guess I kind of am when I would think about that. And then the carnage that happens if you don't think about it at that particular time. But I think you know organizational structure is hugely overlooked at the beginning of the business. Everyone's like well, I'll see the state I live in. Okay, well, why do people? I would look at the question is well, why do people do it other ways? And they do it other ways because there's tax benefits, there's. It's going to be hard to undo that if you're bringing out a partner. So just kind of thinking about that, what you think about business. Is it a solo? A newer thing Is it? Are you going to need to raise money? Are you going to have partners? Is there debt? Is it convertible debt? You know, all these things that we have to think about had various stages. Now there's also a moderate we'll just get started and I agree with that one too. You know meaning. You can sit around and what is it? You know cognitive freeze where you're like, well, that's a lot to think about. So that's the point is like even talking to an attorney or really even reading the CBOB when it comes out. You don't have to do this all at once. It's just kind of thinking about strategically what the issues that we see in growing a business so we can avoid. It's much cheaper to have prophylactic work and avoid the issues. Kind of, let's just go for it and we'll worry about all this later having to fix it, and sometimes it's not fixable or it's fixable but it's like threats of lawsuits and things that make it fixable. So the idea is really to get to look back, find out what kind of entrepreneur you want to be and then move towards it with legal planner. When I talk about legal planner, ultimately most of my clients want to exit at some point, and so I do some M&A and we are always thinking about what the due diligence is going to look like at the M&A. You would be one in a million if you didn't have due diligence coming after. They give you this kind of term sheet offer letter that the valuations have been looking good. But the M&A can be really taught. What it starts out at is, well, gosh, it's a $15 million valuation or whatever. Then that's when you know it's like oh, you didn't add this partner or the operating agreement and you didn't do the distributions right. Well, we can't test something we can do. $2 million off. Wow, you didn't protect the tier two branding. Most companies would do that $3 million off. So it starts going down quickly. And so really we want to start at the beginning, and I find that the most rewarding thing about my practice is when I can work with an entrepreneur to get from point A to point B, point B usually being the exit without carnage, and so that's really my practice and strategy. And then we package a lot of it so it's lat-feed, so you don't get. The entrepreneur is not worried about prices going through the roof.
Speaker 2:
Fair enough, I've got a ton of more questions, but to be respectful of everyone's time, we're going to have to have you back on the show, stephen, and talk about due diligence and exiting and in many and all that fun stuff. Every show we run our guests with the ringer. It's called the fire round. Are you ready? It's a series of short questions, quick answers. What is your favorite book, right?
Speaker 3:
now, ah, I don't know. Let me know in Gil and it's I like sapiens, because it's like why it's just an anthropological book about the history of humans and why sometimes we get in disputes, why, um, why we're programmed the way we are. And it's been really interesting to me because a lot of times you're like we can attorneys especially can spin wheels and it's, it's really, but you have to understand how humans are conditioned in a way. So it goes all the way from prehistory to now. It's a pretty easy read. I found it so profound why there's religion. I mean just huge questions.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I love it. Oh, do you want to add that one to my list? I haven't heard of that one. What are your hobbies?
Speaker 3:
I love to work out, which is mostly. I started kickboxing but it's now kind of a I'm working out with mixed martial art trainers and so just doing weights and stuff. I mean, I'm never going to be a mixed martial art I did, but I'm just, you know, working with really intense people and faith pounding way on weights. I love to ski and I love hanging out with my family and I love listening to music and I love the Denver Nuggets.
Speaker 2:
Awesome. What is one thing that you do not miss about working for the man?
Speaker 3:
Don't miss the worst part about my job. It was if they said, like at the time, at a young family. And if they said, though, like there's a meeting in Minnesota tomorrow morning, and not in a clock, there was no debate, you were just going to drop while you're doing and get on a plane. You're really like you're not captain of your own ship. Many of the times, of course, I found it a very congenial nice people. I'm still friends with a lot of them, but as far as like your life being your own, it just wasn't. That was really. It got really trying to the point where they thought it in Minnesota, they thought I live, I mean, I'm from the Midwest, but I'm not moving to Minnesota to go there. Fair enough.
Speaker 2:
So, yeah, controlling your own time. That that is. Yeah, controlling your own time and your own destiny. Last one what do you think sets apart successful e-commerce entrepreneurs from those who give up, fail or never get started? I've thought about this question a lot.
Speaker 3:
It has to be focused. A focused entrepreneur usually can get from point A to point B. What does that mean? That means they create their own systems. It doesn't have to be someone else's system, but own ways of keeping to the task at hand, overcoming issues. So it's really a tenacity slash focus that I see in these types of entrepreneurs. Sometimes they can be the more mellow ones, like they can let things brush off them, but they are focused on the goal. They're not running off and saying, hey, you know, this is going pretty well. I'm thinking I'm going to film a movie in Ecuador. You know, they're really super focused on the task at hand. They have long-term goals, they have short-term goals, they're focused.
Speaker 4:
Stephen, I want to thank you for being a guest on the Firing Command podcast. If people are interested in getting in touch with you or Emerge Council, what would be the best way.
Speaker 3:
Sure, so again, we offer consults because we want to get to know people and their business plans and see if we can help them. It's wwwemergemergeconsolecom and my email is SWEIGLER at Emerge Console and then either I'll send you a link or on the website, you can set up a console.
Speaker 4:
Well, very nice, and we will post links to that in the show notes. Stephen, thank you so much for your time today and looking forward to staying in touch. A pleasure, you guys. Happy holidays.