Firing The Man

Legacy: Your Entrepreneurial Endgame with Angelina Carleton

• Firing The Man • Episode 274

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What will you leave behind when your entrepreneurial journey ends? It's a question few business owners ask themselves early enough—but one that can transform how you build, grow, and eventually transition your company.

In this profound conversation with legacy planner Angelina Carleton, we explore the crucial distinction between simply building wealth and creating a meaningful, enduring legacy. Angelina shares how her observations of successful real estate entrepreneurs who lacked long-term planning led her to pioneer a specialized coaching practice helping leaders craft legacies that reflect their values and vision.

The discussion delves into practical strategies entrepreneurs can implement today, regardless of where they are in their business journey. From adopting a "100-year plan" to identifying core values that guide decision-making, Angelina offers a roadmap for thinking beyond quarterly profits. She explains how legacy planning influences everything from business structure to succession planning, highlighting how legal instruments like trusts can protect what you've built while supporting your broader impact goals.

Perhaps most valuable are the mindset shifts Angelina describes—moving from success to significance, from control to stewardship, and from outcome-focused to principle-driven leadership. Through examples of successful multi-generational family businesses worldwide, she demonstrates that lasting impact isn't reserved for the ultra-wealthy but is accessible to entrepreneurs at any level who approach their work with intention.

Ready to start thinking about your legacy? Angelina concludes with three actionable steps anyone can take today: define your legacy vision (perhaps by writing your own obituary), document and live your values, and invest in your personal development. These foundational practices can transform not just your business's future but your understanding of entrepreneurial success itself.

How to connect with Angela?
Website: https://www.angelinacarleton.com/?fbclid=IwY2xjawJZrjhleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHb98js1oWtTnsDlMOWRSV0SlcJby_yAN3TYy2M9jYJPv0pv5DbJmhMW3dw_aem_cOxHCnNzPOBO6yM8Ep4tFQ

Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/design-your-legacy/id1562218846

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Your-Legacy

Facebook: facebook.com/DesignUrLegacy

Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/angelinacarleton

Twitter: twitter.com/DesignUrLegacy

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Speaker 1:

Welcome everyone to the Firing the man podcast, a show for anyone who wants to be their own boss. If you sit in a cubicle every day and know you are capable of more, then join us. This show will help you build a business and grow your passive income streams in just a few short hours per day. And now your hosts, serial entrepreneurs David Shomer and Ken Wilson.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Firing the man podcast, the podcast that gives you and your journey to entrepreneurship and financial freedom. Today we're honored to have with us Angelina Carlton, a distinguished legacy planner, coach and the visionary host of the Design your Legacy podcast. Angelina specializes in helping leaders craft and implement their personal legacies, ensuring their values and visions endure for generations. Her podcast ranked in the top 5% and features insightful conversations that inspire listeners to take control of their legacy planning. In this episode, we'll delve into the intersection of entrepreneurship and legacy building, exploring how to create a lasting impact while achieving personal and professional fulfillment. Angelina will share her expertise on designing a holistic legacy that aligns with your entrepreneurial journey, offering practical advice and strategies to help you leave a meaningful mark on the world.

Speaker 2:

So, whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur or a seasoned business owner looking to define your legacy, stay tuned for an enlightening conversation with Angelina Carlton. Let's dive in. Angelina, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me, david, Absolutely. So, to start things off, what inspired you to focus on legacy planning and how can business owners incorporate legacy thinking into their decision-making today?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, great question. So, for some context, I graduated from Penn State University in the year 2000 and I had worked in real estate before, in the capacity of a certified appraiser as well as a commercial real estate broker, and I was doing well in about the year 2011, 2012. And I had clients that were multimillionaires and they would have a portfolio of properties. But what I started to see was there was not a long term game plan for their life regarding what they would pass on and perhaps there was, I just didn't see it at that time. So I would have clients and it was all about what deal they could chase and they didn't want to leave anything on the table. And when that became the conversations, day in and day out, year after year, I took a step back and I asked myself the question again well, surely there's got to be somebody out there that can help an individual design a legacy, whether they are a self-made entrepreneur, whether they are second or third generation, and on and on, and I might've shared this with you on our iceberg conversation. I couldn't find it. I could find coaches that could help an individual stop smoking, lose weight and double their income, but I really couldn't find somebody on googlecom or any search engine that truly spoke to this need. And maybe I was just scratching my own itch, but I literally went into the marketplace and I said to myself I think that there is a need for this. I don't think I am the only one that needs to have this conversation. And again, perhaps there were conversations around the table of a CPA or an estate planning attorney or maybe other niched individuals. But again, I went to Googlecom and I put in a number of different key questions and nothing came up. So then I went back to school with a co-active training institute and long story short, or short story long here, and I did their executive education program, their six weeks fundamentals, their six month coaching program, and I was in the Ruth pod. Yeah, I just went back to school and I started over and then I started coaching individuals, whether they were across the pond, in Europe or the Middle East, and then I just hit the ground running and so that's the roots, and so I started officially in 2014.

Speaker 3:

And, like you had shared in your introduction, I have a podcast today. But it was because I felt that not enough people were talking about the subject of legacy and so I thought I'm going to find individuals that are willing to talk about it, that are courageous enough to talk about it, and I'm just going to jam with them and try and have a fun time. So that's the first part. Okay, the second part is you asked the question how can business owners incorporate legacy thinking into their decision-making?

Speaker 3:

Today and I know that you are an entrepreneur you left kind of the corporate world of a steady paycheck and you leapt off of the and I call it looking before you leap, and some people leap after. You know they look, or however the sequence is, and maybe they never look and they're just swimming in terms of dog paddling. But I wrote down four things. Number one it's adopting a hundred year plan, or even 250 to 350 years, and I know for many listeners that sounds like wow, I've never even thought about that. I just jumped into e-commerce Amazoncom is a great marketplace and now all of a sudden I'm making 10,000 or 100,000 a month or whatever that number is.

Speaker 3:

And I think a lot of times, like I mentioned before, individuals didn't have conversations around their dining room table, their kitchen table or even holiday meals, because their parents were in survival mode and and you could say, oh, that's great for the Rothschild family, but even them, I don't think that they necessarily I mean they were self-made successes in terms of the history that's shared on the internet. I've never spoken directly to a member of the Rothschild family. I know individuals who have, so that would be like two degrees of separation, but that would be the number one is to consider adopting or writing down a hundred year plan, like even if it's just so outrageous and it sounds like it's beyond your capacity, you might not know where your e-commerce business goes and, like I also shared with you in our preamble, I had a grandfather a hundred years ago and he was a successful insurance broker, herbert Carlton, in New England, in Massachusetts, with multiple homes and Cadillacs etc. And he didn't write anything down and a part of that is like I shared with you. He might not have thought that somebody would want to have read it 100 years forward. You know we dealt with, like you know, the whole COVID thing. I think they had the Spanish flu, so, but again, okay. So that's number one.

Speaker 3:

Number two is identify core values and then actually use them, and a lot of times people can say, well, my core values are discipline and a work ethic, and then great, well, how are you incorporating that every week? And that's a very confrontational question. But I do think entrepreneurs can handle confrontation. If they can handle the grit of going into the marketplace week after week and handling the rejection and distilling the insights. They can handle some accountability around their core values. So number one is adopt that 100-year plan. Number two is know your core values and then actually use them.

Speaker 3:

Number three is invest in your personal development and then to that, then also invest in other people. They call that human capital. Like, there's different forms of capital. There's emotional capital, social capital, financial capital. There's you know, I'm holding up my hand, I know this is an audio version but there are different forms of capital and a lot of the times when we think about wealth. But there are different forms of capital and a lot of the times when we think about wealth. Sometimes we think about oh well, we need to teach the next generation financial literacy, and that's true, but you also need to give them sea legs around every other topic. That's going to make up names like Timmy and Sally. Well, let's say, timmy and Sally come home and they say well, the other children don't like me because they're jealous. Well, how do you handle that? So that's why I say invest in your personal development, because there's so many topics that are going to come up that become attached to money.

Speaker 3:

There's a great book before I move on to the fourth key point and I can't think of the psychologist's name right now. He's out of New Hampshire and I think the book title is something like Strangers in a Strange Land, and he wrote Wealth 3.0, which is also an excellent book. But what he said about Strangers in a Strange Land is when people come into wealth, no matter their age, it's like moving to a foreign country, and not only do you have to learn the culture and the customs, but you also get new language, because the way that the affluent speak is very different than somebody in the working class, and that's not putting any of those socioeconomic classes up or down, that one is better than the other, it's just different language. And then when someone gets into the country called wealth, then they have to make sure that they don't get deported. So that's why I say invest in your personal development, because there's so many conversations that need to be had that again didn't might not have happened with your parents because they might not have dreamed as big, or they might not have had the thick skin to take the hard times and the rejection and the rollercoaster ride that comes with entrepreneurialism. Ok, I know I'm being long winded. Ok, so here's the fourth point the hard times and the rejection and the rollercoaster ride that comes with entrepreneurialism. Okay, I know I'm being long-winded. Okay, so here's the fourth point Design your exit with intention, because one of the things we might've talked about also in our preamble or iceberg conversation is when an entrepreneur sells, and whether they sell their business for 3 million or 30 million or whatever that number is. I compare it to the metaphor of all of a sudden and we're having this conversation in the United States.

Speaker 3:

So any listeners, that is, outside of the United States, this might be a reference that they get or they might not get, or it's just a starting point, but it's like asking them to move to the great plains and they look all around and it's just miles of flat land and they go. I don't know this place and now you're expecting me to adapt, and so if they are a individual that has a growth mindset, they'll be great, but sometimes they get to that point and there's no accountability. They might not have that coach or a circle of friends. God bless their heart that holds them accountable. You know, I always hope that individuals that have money have got a good set of friends around them, but the reality is sometimes they just don't. Yeah, that hard, that hard.

Speaker 3:

So they get to the middle of Kansas, and I think that if they can design it today and part of designing it is is that it doesn't have to be perfect. It's a question that they can fill in the answers week by week, of okay, well, one day, if I do sell and I build a business that I and e-commerce, you know, perhaps you can sell your business or pass it down to your children. I don't know what the business model looks like exactly, even though this is a growing niche, but it is a question of like, okay, well, one day maybe I will sell and then I'm going to travel the world and do that next thing I want to do as a part of my legacy, to finally, like, visit 58 countries or whatever that thing is. And so I just think it's a question that deserves an answer, and I think the starting place is curiosity.

Speaker 2:

I like it. I like it and there are so many good points in that response the four items that you highlighted and there's a couple areas here I want to dig into a little bit further. So you were talking about working with the real estate entrepreneurs and they were very much focused on immediate growth and scaling, and I think that's something that entrepreneurs struggle with. How can they balance, like the short term success and then building a lasting legacy?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the things I think about is well, first of all, I have to say from a coach's perspective, the brain is either in growth mode or it's in fear mode. So if they're in fear mode, then you have to kind of shake it off, like that Taylor Swift song, and get to that place in your brain of, okay, I definitely want to scale, and that is one piece of the conversation. But then it's making space, like I call it the space of the Grand Canyon, where they can incorporate a new question or a new conversation. So, like you had said, many individuals can chase revenue and profit and real estate is a very different niche, especially commercial real estate, because that's more of a long-term niche. But I think in e-commerce, when people are like click, click, click and they're buying every day and every week, you know you get to check online to see what those numbers look like, whereas in commercial real estate it's more so like oh well, you know, did the tenant pay this month or did they renew their three year or five year or 10 year lease or whatever that you know the contract is. But I think real success in terms of thinking about the long term is asking yourself questions around impact, reputation and resilience. And again, that's a whole other conversation that somebody has to. Number one, they have to want to have that conversation.

Speaker 3:

One of the things my dad would say to me growing up is if you want success, there's got to be two elements. That's there. Number one, you have to want it, and that has to do with hunger. Nobody can give you hunger. And then, number two, you have to be ready for it. So, for instance I'm just going to put you on the spot, david, for a moment If you were to say to me you know, I would like to have this long-term vision, but I'm dealing with the short-term, day-to-day of mastering my business, I'm going to say great, are you ready to have that other conversation about even drawing up a hundred-year plan? And you could be like yes, I'm ready, I got space in my mind, I can handle it, I can juggle another ball. Or you could say to me I don't know, I just need to know that there's proof social proof, economic proof that I can make $10,000 a month or whatever that number is.

Speaker 2:

Is it something that I've really ever thought about? I would say the longest that I think forward and is probably five to 10 years, and that was until I had this conversation with you, where I do think that that thinking much longer term is is critical.

Speaker 3:

And.

Speaker 2:

I'm a huge fan of the Vanderanderbilt family uh and talk about lost it all.

Speaker 3:

Yes and yeah, but there's. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but there's more to the story. There's also you got the front side of the hand, then you got the back side of the hand. A lot of times people don't know about the darkness of that family, and so that's the. There's even a book. It's about an oil tycoon out of la and it was called like the dark Side of. It's on my bookshelf, but it's it's when wealth goes right, and then it's also when wealth goes wrong. But yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 2:

I've read up a lot on that family there are very few aspects of my life where, when I thought more long-term, whatever it may be, something bad happened. You know what I mean. I do think it's generally.

Speaker 3:

You're getting tested. You think you're getting tested, okay, but I want to add five other quick little tips on that. I think the first thing is redefining success. Is success making that $10,000 or $100,000 a month? Or can success be redefined to include your legacy?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It definitely deserves a seat at the table.

Speaker 3:

And then the second tip I wanted to bring up is legacy as a strategic asset. So you might have your investment account with Fidelity and that's an asset. So you might have your investment account with Fidelity and that's an asset If you're diversifying financially, if you're at that place and your listeners are at that place. But also its legacy as a strategic asset, and it's more than just the name on the side of a building or the chance to buy a sports team. Again, it's thinking about 100 years down the road or even just the next generation.

Speaker 3:

Like if you say a hundred years is too much and you don't, you're not ready yet to research other families, and I shared with you before we pressed the record button that I I've got nine pages of notes here of other families that have that are known and some not so known around the world that can serve as positive role models for some due diligence and research. The third tip that I wanted to bring up is, you know, short-term wins but also long-term vision. So like yes, like in terms of accountability, if your listeners are saying like yeah, I got that short-term win and they're going to celebrate, however it is that they celebrate, you know, maybe they go to the ball game, or they toast at a nice restaurant, or whatever that thing is. But also, you know, allow those short-term wins then to fuel the long-term vision.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, absolutely Well. We've established that it definitely deserves thought. It definitely deserves a seat at the table. One of the things I'd be interested in asking you are what are some common mistakes that you see business owners making when they're trying to create long term impact, and how can they avoid them?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely yeah, so I just wanted to. Can I just give the other two tips before?

Speaker 2:

I jump into the next question.

Speaker 3:

Please do yes please do the other thing that, in terms of if you have a listener and they're thinking about, I've got to handle the short term, so how can I even make space for the long term? The fourth tip I'd give is consider systems for legacy. So, whether that's, you know, creating a framework, early standard operating procedures I mean, this is like underneath the hat of business coaching, but you know leadership principles and pipelines. There's a whole bunch of structures in place that they can consider leadership principles and pipelines. There's a whole bunch of structures in place that they can consider, you know again, when they're ready for that conversation. And then the fifth tip is it has to do with your exit strategy being your legacy strategy also. And again, if somebody's building, they might not even be thinking about their legacy strategy.

Speaker 3:

Okay, so common mistakes confusing legacy with ego. And it was interesting about a decade ago when I started this in 2014,. Even my own father said to me well, be careful, some people might just think about legacy through the lens of their ego. Well, fantastic, it gets even better than that, as I might have shared with you in our prample, david. A lot of people just think about legacy in terms of death and money, but it's so much more than that. Much more than that, I think it's. It asks me more than just I want my name on everything. It's more so. I want to be remembered and how can I do good with what has been gifted to me? And again, not everyone's got to create a library system like Andrew Carnegie, but there's a lot of families in the background that are doing amazing things for their community, because either the government and their country can't step up or they're just being a really strong family unit as a role model in their community.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, absolutely. That's something that I'm glad that you pointed out, because I think when I first hear legacy I often think of like the Carnegie's of the world, but I also think about when I graduated from high school. I got a thousand dollar scholarship from a family that it was a middle-class family. They had a son that passed away and they made a scholarship in his name. It wasn't a huge scholarship, but it made a meaningful difference in my life and that scholarship is still active and has been funded, so it can go on into perpetuity and talk about. You know that is a legacy, that you know that it wasn't a Carnegie type family, it was a working, a working family that that did prioritize legacy and and made that happen. And I think that's something that, as we're discussing this, that legacy isn't only for billionaires, it's it's something for everybody. And so, yeah, what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, well, I'm sorry to interrupt you again. I'm just excited and passionate about the topic that was. One of the things I think we also talked about in our preamble is that it used to be about two-thirds of today's affluent are am I saying this right? Are self-made. Two-thirds of today's? Yeah, and actually it's inching up to 90%. So, again, what we're talking about is psychographics of individuals that are hungry and they're willing to put in the hard work, and then those that are given it, whether they're second generation, third generation, that pool of individuals is shrinking. So, yeah, I want to bring up another mistake. It's waiting too long to think long-term, and I know a part of it is the procrastination for some individuals. But again, there's some individuals that are just going to be like I'm on a winning streak and I'm going to kick the soccer ball forward, and so then I think one of the good choices they can make is embedding legacy into their business model.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. One thing that you had mentioned was the first generation of people that are creating massive amounts of wealth. One thing that I've learned from this podcast. You know we've interviewed over 250 entrepreneurs. There seems to be a common thread amongst immigrants entrepreneurs. There seems to be a common thread amongst immigrants, and if you were to say you have a group of a hundred immigrants and you have a group of a hundred people that inherited wealth, they're going to do something, and it can be whatever, I would put my money on that group of immigrants and I I they oftentimes are first. You know, they're the first generations. That's creating wealth and there's something that happens in that process that helps them. And I'm still like trying to place my finger on that, but I, yeah, it's something that I've definitely picked out or picked up on.

Speaker 3:

Well, I think a part of it is that their country might not have something called like welfare or section eight or food stamps or social security. It's more like you either pull yourself up by your bootstraps or you die, and I think their work ethic leans into this idea, where they take nothing for granted and they work really hard, and that humility is like they're going to be at their shop at late hours Now. Are there pros and cons to that? Sure, absolutely. But they're going to be at their shop at late hours Now. Are there pros and cons to that? Sure, absolutely. But they're going to work really, really hard.

Speaker 3:

I have a mother, so like I think I shared with you. On my father's side he's a 10th generation American out of Massachusetts, but on my mother's side, she immigrated here from South Korea and her perspective to my sister and I is never waste an opportunity. Somebody brings you an opportunity, you show up and you give it 100%, like she was just hardcore because she marvels at some things in the United States, including that some individuals take for granted what they're given.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I've. I've seen that firsthand, and she did go hungry when she was growing up. There's that type of struggle. I don't know, I don't have a background in this, but there's something that happens when you experience struggle like that, especially early on in life, that that for years it shapes you and, and oftentimes for the better. For years, uh-huh, it shapes you, and oftentimes for the better, and so it's. Yeah, it's really interesting, interesting topic, and so I do want to.

Speaker 3:

Well, I want to say something to that point for a moment before we go on to the next question. You know I'm going to bring up the Rothschild family again, and I'm not even saying that I'm a fan of theirs. All I'm saying is that I look at what works for different families. Now, is it true that they grew up in poverty in Germany, perhaps but I also think that they got a lot of help along the way his as a trader and as a banker from for him coming up, finding the right clients and so forth. But I think that he got to a point where it was beneficial for him to win and they even say that about Donald Trump love him or hate him.

Speaker 3:

He got to a point where the banks in the United States said, ok, you're going to file bankruptcy, we can't let you sink. We're all in this together. So I think that I think that's part of it. So I think that sometimes people get to a place where that work ethic and that level of discipline helps them. But I also think they get to a place where they get so good at relationships, which is another skill set when it comes to investing in one's personal development, because some people are good at it and other people aren't good at it, but they have to become refined along the way, absolutely, I fully agree with that have to become refined along the way.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, I fully agree with that, fully agree with that. So, bringing our conversation back to legacy planning, there have been AI and automation has come on the scene and it's here to stay. And so how?

Speaker 3:

do you see technology shaping the future of legacy planning for entrepreneurs? Yeah, I think this is a great question. I have good feelings about ChatGBT. I know some people don't like it and I'm just going to start there, because there's a lot of other tools. I think the brilliance with technology today is that we can build off of it. So like, for instance, if I go to ChatGBT, I look at it and I see it as the foundation, and then I've got to build my knowledge and add my knowledge onto that. So it's like wow, I missed that. Ok, well, that added some things that were in my blind spot.

Speaker 3:

But then we have to bring our own mental muscle power to it. It's kind of like multiplication. We might not take a piece of paper out anymore, but it's good for our brains. At least we can remember how to do it. So I say don't delegate completely, but have that as a tool. So there's things like mind mapping and there's other websites that can analyze personal values, business data, impact goals, et cetera.

Speaker 3:

But I also think there's something to be said about a live human being across from you that can help you on this journey of legacy planning. Like one of the things I shared with you is I listened to your episode with Matt Stafford last night and you guys chatted about coaching at the very end, and there's going to be life experiences that he can utilize and lean into then to help guide yourself or listeners or other individuals, because he's done the sweat equity and I think that's what AI cannot do, and so I think it's a blend of humans tapping into that, and so I think it's a blend of humans tapping into that. So, like with financial planning, they can do modeling and that's great. And there was even a professor on my podcast. He's an Israeli professor out of Northern California and he talked about financial advisors. They have to be well-being advisors in the future, because that's what AI can't do. So I think, again, ai is marvelous. It can do automated knowledge transfers.

Speaker 3:

You can put things in a cloud, and I even use a cloud. It's called Mediafirecom because I've had so many MacBooks crash and iPhones crash and once you lose the data, you're like you want to just kick the wall, so you kind of learn the hard way. Okay, great, it's in that cloud, and so I think that's one thing. And so, yeah, there's so many websites that are secure and that are fantastic to lean into and so like, for instance, in your business, david, maybe you can put in you know how, to you know again, standard operating procedures or governance documents or the whatever it is you need, so like, if you have to pass the baton one day whether that's succession or letting go of control and bringing in a president or some executive, so you can go to those 58 countries as a part of your legacy plan, then technology then can step in, because then you've got something whether it's a Google Drive or some database that that data is there and you're not going to lose it.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, absolutely. I fully agree with you in terms of AI not replacing the entrepreneur, and you had said something very early on in the podcast on you're either in growth mode or you're in being scared mode. Yeah, it's interesting when I talk to people I can. When I talk to them about AI, I can generally tell whether they're in growth mode or are in scared mode based on how they feel about it. You know, my opinion on it is it puts a jet pack on the entrepreneur's back and allows them to work much faster and much more efficiently. However, it's not to a spot where it can replace them, and so I'm a huge fan of it. I've incorporated it into my daily practices and I like to think I am in growth mode currently.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I wanted to add one other thing to that legacy. I wrote this down, for our conversation today is evolving from financial to philosophical and emotional permanence, and I think that's when technology can then be an asset regarding, like time capsules or immortality projects. You know it's photos, not just in this hardcover coffee table book. I'm a big proponent of having a hardcover coffee table book. I mean, I will bring it up and I'll ask individuals like what images and stories and best lessons are in there? Because, again, if you have a coffee table and it's got some architect, that's fantastic, but if it's got what you're about or what your family's about, that's 10 times better. And someone might be bashful about it and a lot of times people are, and it's a part of the legacy. Planning conversation actually involves self-worth, because somebody actually has to believe that what they have to say and share is worthy enough. What's that? Look on your face.

Speaker 3:

No, I fully agree with you, and I'm just thinking of the lack of coffee table book at my house. Well, so I think that's a part of it, but then the other part of it is the immortality piece of putting it, you know, in a digital database of your photos, that it's in a downloadable PDF, if need be, or, these days, video, some people might say. You know, I'd really like to interview David for 10 hours and see what he has to share, and you might talk about everything regarding your life, your business and, again, that's captured and that's like downloadable, whether it's 10 years from now or whenever it is.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think we're getting to kind of the digital transformation here where we are moving from where things can be stored in the cloud and can be passed on from generation to generation, if you handle that stuff responsibly. I would love if my grandpa had a podcast. I would pay a lot of money to tune into that. Of course it doesn't exist, but there is a chance, if I handle conversations like this well, that my grandchildren could tune into this very podcast that we're listening to. And so, yeah, any thoughts on that, like just the very podcast that we're listening to. And so, yeah, any thoughts on that, like just the digital transformation that we're in and how that may be making this easier.

Speaker 3:

Yes, and I want to share one other great thing about technology and I'm not an attorney, so I just want to provide that disclaimer up front but when people are talking about blockchain and smart contracts, it also makes a difference regarding estate planning and even impact investing, for instance, because it's now we talk about things like IP, intellectual property equity. But great, there's intellectual property, that's there. There might be a logo, there might be, you know, brand rights. I mean, you could get to a place and you might say, well, I'm not like you know, richard Branson, but maybe one day, because of this podcast, there's some brand equity around your name.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now that's something that I have not thought about, but I absolutely think that's something to be thinking about.

Speaker 3:

So one other quick thing and then I know you have to go on to the next question. Smart contracts allow for automating donations, even mission based payouts. But I know that's again. I'm kicking the soccer ball down the field because your listeners might just be saying I'd like to grow my business, you know, to this wildly successful place. I'm not even thinking about, you know, nonprofit work or philanthropy. I'm just saying that automation in terms of your legacy planning. There's a lot there that can be a strategic tool.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I really like that perspective and one of the things that I may not be a direct consequence, but an indirect consequences of this is if legacy planning, if you're in the mode of I just am trying to build the company for the next year, but you do, you do stop and think about legacy planning. It kind of forces you to build something that's worth passing down, and not building something just to make a quick buck, and that's a totally different mindset. Building something just to make a quick buck, and that's a totally different mindset. Like when you're setting up procedures and and, um, you're not thinking these procedures need to function for the next year, that you're thinking these need to function for the next hundred years. That's a totally different mindset and, and I think, a mindset that has benefits while you're in growth mode, while you're in building mode. So I do want to touch on you know.

Speaker 3:

It also. I just want to add this part also. It gives somebody something to look forward to in addition to the money.

Speaker 2:

Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Money is exciting, but there's something to be said about okay, I've got all the profits coming in. I mean, I've seen individuals and they're over in Dubai with their sports cars and they're like living it up, and that's fantastic. And then there's the new problem of like oh, I've arrived, now what? And I think that's a part of the conversation we're having today that again, if you've got a great circle of friends, that's awesome. But sometimes somebody arrives there and they go, oh, okay, now what do I do?

Speaker 3:

Which is why I think this conversation is important.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, absolutely. So. For the entrepreneurs that are thinking, you know listening to this, or are already thinking about legacy planning from a structuring your business standpoint, you know, like legal entities, operational systems, what are some tips you have to protect and sustain their legacy when setting these up?

Speaker 3:

OK, so I love this question and, of course, I have to provide a disclaimer up front, because I'm not an attorney and this can step on some toes regarding attorneys. So, of course, get proper legal advice from a variety of sources, at least three. Ok, I said that piece up front. Perfect. I am a big fan of trust. In 2013, I set up for foreign trust and that was quite a learning curve.

Speaker 3:

There is a book out there. It's a little bit controversial and the company got sued by the USDOJ, but I think it's because law schools in the United States don't teach as much about trust as they could, and hopefully I'm not going to put my foot in hot water by saying that. But there are things like dynastic trusts out there. There's so many different trusts. There's a book called Passing Bucks, I think. There's even a website. I've had Howard Hinman on my podcast twice and he's a dear friend. But I learned about foreign trusts in 2013 from a British lady and she's now passed on. But in the United States, south Dakota is one of the best states for domestic trust.

Speaker 3:

If you are going to go overseas, luxembourg is the number one location for privacy and protection. Number two is Panama, yeah, so I think trusts are amazing. Are they always airtight? It depends on how they're structured, but I think, in terms of one layer of protection and, again, privacy, oh, they can help. I think they're so amazing. And, again, it involves teamwork. So if you can find an individual that you can trust as a trustee, fantastic. If you can find two trustees, even better trustee.

Speaker 2:

Fantastic. If you can find two trustees, even better, okay. Okay, for people that are not familiar with trust at all, uh, what would be a good starting place for educating themselves on what they are, the different types, maybe some benefits and pros and cons of each one, any anything that would be helpful there?

Speaker 3:

yeah, so again, I'm probably going to get in trouble for saying this, but the passing bucks books are amazing. I think the first book is like $400. And then I think the next book is like 1200.

Speaker 2:

Interesting.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so it's about the price of if like so for the first book, it's it's a kind of a cursory overview, um, but it's like so for $400, that's like a one hour in an attorney's office. But now you're putting the knowledge in your court in terms of control, because once you buy the book, it's always there on your bookshelf and then the other book gets into sample documents and the nitty gritty and it's like super duper long and thorough and, yeah, you can't necessarily sit down in one weekend. So if I set up my trust in 2013, you know, it's been a decade and I'm still learning, but I yeah, but I yeah, but I've got the house in the trust, I've got the car in the trust, I got the bank account in the trust, et cetera, and it's not. It's not like you know, life is still going to happen, but I'm so glad that that has been there.

Speaker 2:

That's helpful, that's helpful. And there's something intriguing about the price point of those books that they're obviously delivering value if, if they can justify you know charging that price and so OK, that's really a lot.

Speaker 3:

A lot of the conversations when it comes to trust are kept in either very expensive law offices and with attorneys in New York, toronto, dc, boston, and if you're not in that clique, you don't really get access to the conversations at those tables.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that's that is. I have often heard that there's a type of and these are let me just point out, these are my words, not Angelina's words but there's tax planning reserved for the rich, there's tax planning that only certain people have access to, and oftentimes you hear of trust and irrevocable trust as a system or as a mechanism that you can use for either avoiding taxes or avoiding death taxes or whatever that may be, or avoiding death taxes or whatever that may be, and it kind of. You know, I've been involved in business for quite some time, but the knowledge of what trusts are and how to use them. It hasn't necessarily made its way across my desk and I think, in terms of having a good good, just business hygiene, learning about those types of vehicles is vehicles would be valuable, and so there was a gentleman also on my podcast, les Winston.

Speaker 3:

He's out of Miami, florida, and he talked about the section in the IRC code. So for anyone in the United States, irc is the Internal Revenue Code. I can't think of the exact IRC code right now, but I can send you the link afterwards. But he talked about that. There is a section in the code where if you give to your favorite charity or nonprofit, it's a write-off. Okay, so it? I mean it was put in the tax code. I don't know if it was in the seventies or when it was. So there are some amazing things that can be done, that one can be smart about their money and it is a win-win because then you're helping elevate a section of society that needs some funding and at the same time you don't feel like you're just giving money, you know, to the tax man.

Speaker 2:

That makes sense. That makes sense. Any other financial strategies that you think would be helpful to touch on when we're discussing securing wealth and ensuring that a business thrives for generations?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. Second point would be create a succession plan. So if something never happens to David, your wife's not going to wonder because you're going to have the number two person there, the number three person there, Because, again, sometimes when a business gets started it's all about the founder. And when somebody can get to a point where they say, okay, well, if something happens and I'm in Aspen and I'm skiing and life happens sometimes like I don't want to be morbid, but then it helps your wife not have to worry.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and also then that she doesn't necessarily have to step in and fill your shoes, because one of the things that's also happening right now and we might've talked about this in our preamble is there's like a 22.7 or $27 trillion wealth transfer that's going to happen, and a lot of that's going to be resting or being put onto the shoulders of women, whether it's daughters or wives or widows or whoever and they don't have the training. So that's why it's the greatest succession plan, like yesterday.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I like it, I like it.

Speaker 3:

So the third thing would be embed values into your operating systems.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I like it I like it.

Speaker 3:

So the third thing would be embed values into your operating systems. Okay, yeah, implement governance structures. On my website, I've got a free governance document because a lot of times people will say to me well, our family doesn't have a family constitution. What do you mean? A governance document Fantastic, I got a sample for free on my website.

Speaker 2:

Okay, very good, very good, and we'll link to that in the show notes free on my website. Okay, very good, very good, and we'll link to that in the show notes. Okay, let's talk a little bit about mindset. So how does an entrepreneur's mindset influence their ability to create lasting legacy, and what key shifts should they make early on?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think mindset is really, really important because, again, it's like you could go in with ego and control, and I think a part of control is you know what made that entrepreneur successful in the first place. But then to create a legacy, again, you have to be willing to expand the capacity of what's possible. Like a part of it and you probably know this from success there's the doing piece and then there's the being piece. Yeah, so I think that the the being piece, um, it's thinking about like, like there's a concept called legacy, well, and so it's like yes, it's like a smart structure plus intentional stewardship, plus generational wisdom. So it's not just like I'm going to get like five sports cars.

Speaker 2:

Mm, hmm.

Speaker 3:

And there's a lot of very successful people that are in their 20s and 30s and like, yeah, go get the sports cars. And then it's going to be like, OK, but now what?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

So so I might say I wrote down five examples for today's conversation. So it's going from success to significance. So so one mindset could say I want to make money and be known. The legacy mindset could be I want to make meaning and be remembered for something deeper.

Speaker 2:

Okay, that's number one Number two.

Speaker 3:

like you had talked about going from short-term wins to long-term wisdom. One mindset could be well, how fast can I scale? That's great. The legacy mindset could be how well can I build something that outlasts me?

Speaker 2:

something that outlasts me. I like it All right, very good.

Speaker 3:

Number three again I mentioned control is a trait that can help an entrepreneur become successful, because it could be that control freak that thinks about everything and again the buck stock stops with them. So that's great. But then to go to this idea of stewardship, or even from ownership to stewardship, OK, so one mindset could be you know, this is my company, Right? The legacy mind shift could be I'm a caretaker of something bigger than me.

Speaker 2:

I like that one. I like that one.

Speaker 3:

So I've got two more from you or two more for you. Ok, one, you know it's going from that scarcity mindset of fear to multiplication. So you know, one way of thinking could be I need to protect what's mine and that's also a big thing, for, like first generation, like I built this before I passed the baton to the second generation, they're going to spend it all, or or whatever you know the thoughts might be. The legacy mindset could be like how can I multiply my impact through others? And a part of that could be incorporating your children to work in the business, or looking at their strengths compared to where their weaknesses are.

Speaker 3:

I'm going to bring up that book, wealth 3.0, for another minute and plug it, because I think one of the things that's happening today is, with the next generations coming into wealth, the focus is really now on their strengths. It's not about changing them. It's like okay, well, what are you interested in? What are you good at? And then how can we weave that in so it's a win-win, like no longer like, oh it's. You know this expression called like teacups to teacups, and then it's a presumption that the children are going to fail, or the adult offspring.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3:

Okay, I've got one more and I know we got to wrap soon, but it's from outcome focused to principle driven, and so, like one mindset could be like what's the ROI or the return on investment, and the legacy mindset would be what's the ripple effect? You know over time and throughout, you know the community.

Speaker 2:

I really like those five tips that you laid out From a leadership standpoint. What are some leadership traits that can distinguish those who have a meaningful legacy from those who fade away?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely, and I just want to circle back on that last question for a moment that legacy. Entrepreneurs make decisions based on values, not just vanity metrics.

Speaker 2:

That's important. That's really important and probably something that not a ton of entrepreneurs are doing currently, and so that's a really really good point.

Speaker 3:

So anything else on that before we go on to leadership traits Well, I know that, like I shared with you and I don't know if there'll be the opportunity to speak about all the families around the world that have done really well, that are like 250 to 350 year long families that have made amazing decisions and they almost work like a sports team. So we might not cover that today, but I just would like to say to any of the listeners that there are those that have come before you. So, number one, don't feel like you have to do it all like in a New York minute, but rather that you can pace yourself and realize that when your success is materializing, that there's so much amazing that you can do with that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I think it'd be helpful to maybe get into some of those successful families. Sometimes it's helpful to know what this looks like and maybe we can touch on some of the leadership qualities or some of the things that you think help some of these families create a lasting legacy. So who are some on that list that you think really stand out?

Speaker 3:

Okay, so I could go through the names, but if I go through what made them successful, that might be like a whole other podcast, but I'd like to at least read some of the names for your listeners so they have a reference point.

Speaker 2:

Perfect, that sounds great.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, because it's not just like the Rockefellers or the Gates family I know they get a lot of press or even Elon Musk's family, yeah. So there's Walt Disney that was an individual. The Ford family in the United States. In Japan, the Toyota dynasty. A lot of times we don't have these reference points, especially if one came up in the public school system in the United States. A lot of times these you know international families weren't covered in the Middle East.

Speaker 3:

My pronunciation might be not so great on some of these names, but the Olajan families yeah, they got into the business of exclusive rights in the United Arab Emirates, whether it was like Toyota, lexus, honda, etc. Ok, the Hermes family Hermes I'm probably not as refined for this French name, h-e-r-m-e-s, so a lot of times people think about the Rothschilds with Europe. But Hermes, hermes, ok, again, I'm butchering the name. But the Walton family Walmart, and they actually received their success later in life, which is also very interesting. The number of individuals that struggled for years and years and years and then it was like they got to like their fifties and all of that life experience and business experience then became exponential and then it was like the door opened yeah, I like that, yeah, in canada and again my pronunciation is not going to be amazing, even though I studied french for six years the des mares family, d-e-s-m-a-r-a-i-s um.

Speaker 3:

There. They were in banking, insurance, media, etc. In south america. The safra family in Brazil, global banking and philanthropy. The Luck family out of Chile, l-u-k-s-i-c. The Santo Domingo family out of Colombia. They were in alcohol, beer as well as media. The Lutzik family out of Chile. They were in mining and infrastructure. The Carlos Slim family out of Mexico, even though originally he is, I think, from Lebanon. But you talk about that immigrant mindset, that they're willing to work hard, and I'm not saying that all of these entrepreneurs made, you know, perfect decisions. But again, you know, it's kind of like there's this expression called last man standing, also maybe last woman standing these days with the inheritance transfer. The Poma family out of El Salvador.

Speaker 3:

In Russia, the Potanin family. They were in metals as well as banking. The Abramovich family out of Russia oil, steel and football. You know, sports is also one of those things that a lot of times they don't teach individuals about, like buying a sports team or all of that. Yeah, ok, there's the Harris family, the Morris family, the Haints family, h-a-i-n-t-z and the Buxton family feel alone right now. Who else is out there? Or I don't wanna do it how the Rockefellers did it, or the Rothschilds Great. There's so many other families out there that operate like a sports team and they're very strategic. They have a team of advisors. They also work with a personal coach, where that personal development is something that they invest in.

Speaker 2:

I like it. I like it, and that's really helpful to get an understanding. There was a lot out there, or a lot that you mentioned, who I was very familiar with. However, I was familiar with the brand, not necessarily the family behind it and the legacy behind it, and so Toyota is one an example of that, and so that's really neat that you laid those out, and I think everybody who's listening is familiar with, at least you know, a couple of those on the list. And so what do you think in terms of, like, leadership traits? What do you think and maybe with those families, it may be people that you've worked with but what are some leadership traits that you think help someone have a meaningful legacy?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I have seven today Vision beyond themselves, which again is hard because there's a positive side to an ego just as there's a negative side. So it's learning how to lean into the positive sides of ego that are more so competence related. You know, building success long after one is gone and also building success for others. That's number one vision beyond oneself. Number two being consistent with values. Like, are you the same in front of somebody that can do nothing for you? You know, it's not just the waiter at the restaurant. I know people always utilize that metaphor, but it's how kind are you in terms of your values when no one is looking, or you think no one is looking, in that consistency.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Number three empowerment. And what I mean by empowerment is not being the loudest voice in the room, and I know a lot of times in like a patriarchal culture, people respect the loudest voice in the room. Oh, that's a lot of certainty coming from that individual. But I think it's really the ability to delegate to people that have earned your trust and also the ability to build other people up and to create that space for other people to grow.

Speaker 2:

I like it.

Speaker 3:

I like it other people to grow. I like it, I like it. Number four would be that growth mindset, Again being a lifelong learner. The humility around that. I think there's a certain bravado to success, like yeah, I've made it and you feel good about yourself. And there's a certain amount of confidence of like yeah, I've done this life right, you know, and that's great. But the humility to know that if the tsunami comes, like okay, I can rebuild it. And being that lifelong learner because, again, a lot of the families that the names I read off, they're diversified. So if an industry changes, great, they're going to start from the bottom up and learn about something else, Because markets change, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah yeah, fly, okay, yeah, yeah. I think that in terms of resilience with grace, there's a steady courage about that. One of the things that you and I had talked about in our preamble was you were like oh, I'm so glad that when you first started out, angelina, you know you didn't just automatically get invited through the door, you just kept at it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Number six is communicate, communicate, communicate. Other people can't read your mind. I think sometimes, like in families of wealth, when there is going to be a succession, there's a lot of expectations of like onto that next gen or rising gen, like don't F this up, Don't make the family look bad. But they can't read minds, and so I think a part of it is just like over communicate.

Speaker 3:

There was a story of a gentleman who took his granddaughter to the toy store. Instead of like swiping with plastic, he brought out the bills and again it was like the Lego store, but it was explicit communication of like these are the five dollar bills, these are the one dollar bills. So even if at the end of the purchase it was like $110 or whatever the amount was, it was like that grandchild could see the dollar bills getting put on the counter and I know somebody could say well, that one store I went to it's cashless. Now Okay. But my point of this is the same regarding the principal it's over-communicating something because somebody might not know what. What went into that yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I agree with that one. And what about number seven?

Speaker 3:

okay, um, it's intentional succession. So even like, like in the e-commerce business. If there is a way to pass that forward, okay, yeah, because at one once the day will come where maybe david doesn't want to do this anymore, or david can't do this anymore in, in being intentional about it's going to make everything easier.

Speaker 3:

I I'm, I like it, I like it even if it's just carving out an hour a week to say like, okay, I'm going to sit down and learn what I can about how to structure a succession and then talk to someone when I'm ready, because, again, we never know when we get sideswiped in life.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, my final question, for myself and for the listeners, is if someone wants to start working on their legacy today, what are three actionable steps that they should take?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, number one is and even though they ask individuals to do this in business school, it's still a little like kind of how do I say it? It's kind of a deep breath moment. It's writing your obituary, it's defining your legacy vision. It's saying okay, on the final year or day of my life. What does that look like?

Speaker 2:

Interesting. I've never heard that, but that would be powerful.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, a lot of business schools do it, especially these days, mba programs and so forth. And again, if somebody says, well, I don't know where to start, great, there's videos on YouTube, there's a lot of free resources to get the inspiration going, but it's in every area, like I know that. And like when Matt Stafford, for instance, he talked about four areas of his life like fitness, number one, number two, relationship with God, number three, relationship with others, and then for business, even if you started your, your legacy vision of that final day of you know, and you just put it into those four categories and just to get really clear, and the next step could be the backwards planning, but just step one is just to write it out, even if it's on the back of a napkin.

Speaker 2:

Very nice. Yeah, I think that's really good advice and something that we all could do and all have the resources to do today.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, because it's also not just about financial success. It's about your impact, your values, the mark you want to leave behind, and articulating it today.

Speaker 2:

Okay, okay, I like it. I like it. All right. What about number two?

Speaker 3:

Okay, that's great and in there. If you want to add a legacy statement, kind of like a vision statement, like if you have a vision statement for your e-commerce in there. If you want to add a legacy statement, kind of like a vision statement, like if you have a vision statement for your e-commerce, shopify, amazon, business, it's also a statement that you could put in there for your legacy.

Speaker 2:

Okay, yeah, okay.

Speaker 3:

All right. Number two is know what your values are Like, even if it's just your three or four core or aspirational values. Document them and then consider for extra credit in terms of, like a Google spreadsheet, like when do you live into them during your week? When do you give yourself permission to live into them?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay, I like that one.

Speaker 3:

And number three is invest in yourself regarding human capital, personal development and how you're going to transfer your knowledge. So if that sounded like a lot, then just start with. How are you going to invest in your own personal development?

Speaker 2:

Very nice, very nice. I like it. I like it. Now, angelina, for all of the people that are tuning in right now who may want to work with somebody on this, you run an agency to design your legacy where you work with people on this. Who's your ideal client and what's the best way to get in touch with you?

Speaker 3:

Yes, so I do have a coaching and advisory practice.

Speaker 3:

It's based out of Beverly Hills, california in the United States, and somebody can book online. I do keep a paper calendar on my desk, so what's online is not going to match what's actual reality, but that's just because I like to still have something like when we talked about AI. I think AI is brilliant. They can book something on my Wix website, but then I have to also verify it with my paper calendar and so there can be an introductory session just to carve out what is it that somebody wants? Because a lot of times, people don't know where to start and then, second, it comes down to who can I talk to about this that believes in what it is that I am trying to create for the long term vision, because, again, come across individuals that can help you double your income, build your Shopify store, stop smoking and lose weight this whole other conversation. When one is ready to build out that legacy, I think it's somebody that needs to take it as serious as you do for your money and for your time.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I like it. I like it All. Right, before we wrap up the episode, we have something called the fire round. It's four questions. We ask everybody at the end of the show Are you ready?

Speaker 3:

I am ready. All right, what is your favorite book? Okay, so we joked about this beforehand and so I think this is a book from like my teenage girl years and it's a book called, I think, like the Changeling or the Changeling Sea by Patricia McKillop, and it's just like I don't know. It's a book that's based off of a young girl who's like a maid who works at this inn. I think it's off the coast of England or somewhere and, yeah, it has sea monsters in it. I just thought it was fantastic. And the lead protagonist her name was Perry and if I ever have a child, I'm going to name the child Perry. Very nice, very nice, all right.

Speaker 2:

Second question what are your hobbies?

Speaker 3:

Oh, this is a very interesting uh question, because I think a lot of times, like entrepreneurs can be kind of like workaholics. But when I do have time, um, I think it's um working in the yard. I've got like I don't know 25 fruit trees and I think, just getting my hands dirty and cleaning things up. I think that's definitely a hobby that brings happiness. If I can carve out the time sailing my parents provided sailing lessons growing up and to get out there and be all starboard and on the open waters is cool.

Speaker 2:

That's awesome. That's awesome. Third question what is one thing you do not miss about working for the man?

Speaker 3:

Abuses of power. That can happen. Sometimes there are some amazing leaders out there. But actually when I was first in LA, before I became an appraiser, I had two jobs. I was a waitress at the Beverly Hills Country Club but I was also a temp. I think I got fired from 10 temp jobs because I couldn't sit in my chair. I just like some people are like sit and I just I wanted to move around, I wanted to talk to people and they were like oh no. Yeah, she's not going to work.

Speaker 2:

That's funny.

Speaker 3:

And even to this day, I'm not good at sitting in my chair.

Speaker 2:

That's funny. Yeah, I share that with you, and that was one of the things working in corporate America that I struggled with as well. So all right and final question what do you think sets apart successful entrepreneurs from those who give up, fail or never get started?

Speaker 3:

or last woman standing. Sometimes you just have to stand and stand and stand and there are going to be the seasons in life where you might just fail and look really bad. I've been through seasons in my life where I looked really bad and it's like all right, and you just keep going. I mean, I remember when I was growing up my dad had a quote that he would say to me once a week when I was provided my allowance, and the quote was success begins when you quit caring about what everybody else thinks, and that can be harder sometimes than one thinks when it happens in reality.

Speaker 2:

I like it. Yeah, I fully agree with that. Well, angelina, this has been a great podcast and, to all of our listeners, we're going to post links to how to get in touch with Angelina at Design your Legacy, and looking forward to staying in touch.

Speaker 3:

It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me as a guest today.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

People on this episode

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David Schomer

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Ken Wilson

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