What If Your E-Commerce Store Doesn’t Have a Traffic Problem? | DJ Sprague and Scott Brantley

You can pour money into ads all day and still feel broke. That’s the uncomfortable reality we dig into with Scott Branley and DJ Sprague, e-commerce veterans behind Shopper Approved and the new platform Cash Flow. They argue most stores don’t have a traffic problem, they have a profit leak problem, and those leaks can quietly cost tens or even hundreds of thousands per year while looking like “normal” operating expenses.

We walk through the leaky bucket idea: you turn on the traffic faucet, but hidden holes drain the value before it ever becomes net profit. Scott and DJ break down the major revenue leaks they see across e-commerce and Shopify brands, including payment processing fees, fraud, false declines, chargebacks, returns, shipping losses, cart abandonment, and site abandonment. Then we get practical about the order of operations that actually works: fix margin first, optimize conversion rate and average order value next, and only then scale paid and organic traffic so growth doesn’t multiply inefficiency.

From there we go deeper on conversion rate optimization using behavioral science and social proof. We talk store ratings, product reviews, video reviews, and why product Q&A is more than a widget. Done strategically, Q&A becomes an SEO and AI search optimization engine that brings in high-intent organic traffic and pre-sells shoppers before they land on your product page. We also cover Cash Flow Club, their weekly mastermind with live site teardowns focused on removing friction and improving the customer journey from homepage to checkout.

If you want more profit without gambling on higher ad spend, listen through to the end, grab the free resources, and run the calculator with your real numbers. Subscribe, share this with an e-commerce founder who’s stuck at thin margins, and leave a review with the biggest “leak” you want to fix first.

Ready to scale your Amazon business? Click here to book a strategy call.  https://calendly.com/firingtheman/amazon

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Setup

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Welcome everyone to the Firing the Man Podcast, a show for anyone who wants to be their own boss. If you sit in a cubicle every day and know you are capable of more, then join us. This show will help you build a business and grow your passive income streets in just a few short hours per day. And now your hosts, serial entrepreneurs David Shomer and Ken Wilson.

The Leaky Bucket Profit Model

SPEAKER_04 1:32

Welcome everyone to the Firing Demand Podcast. Today's episode is going to challenge the way you think about e-commerce profits. Most e-commerce stores are focused on getting more traffic, scaling ads, and increasing revenue. But what if the secret to unlocking transformational growth in your business has nothing to do with any of these things? Today we're diving into some are calling the hidden profit crisis in e-commerce a completely different way to think about scaling a business, one that doesn't start with traffic at all. And to break this down, we've got two of the leading minds and authors on e-commerce profitability and how to use real-world tools and behavioral design to maximize profits joining us today, Scott Branley and DJ Sprague. Scott and DJ are longtime veterans in the e-commerce world and are co-founders of an exciting new company called Cash Flow. They are also co-authors of the companion book, also called Cash Flow, in addition to another book that I highly recommend called Reputation King, both of which are available on Amazon. As CEO and CMO of one of the oldest and most trusted online review platforms in the world, Shopper Approved, they've helped thousands of e-commerce companies transform their brands online. But recently they discovered a serious problem that is causing virtually every e-commerce website to lose tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, often without them even realizing it. One of the things I love about their story is that they solve this problem in a way that has never been done before, which is what they're going to share with us today. I've known DJ and Scott for a while now. I've read both of their books, Reputation King and Cash Flow, and I can honestly say that what you're about to learn will completely change how you look at your e-commerce business. So I highly encourage you to stick around. Scott, DJ, welcome to the show. Thanks, David. Yeah, glad to be here. Absolutely. So so to start things off, why are so many e-commerce brands struggling to grow their profits even while their revenue is increasing?

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Well, I think that from DJ and my perspective, I think one of the big things that they're missing is revenue leaks. Um we've been in the e-commerce world, as you know, uh David, for a long time. And um, you know, what we've realized is that everyone really focuses on paid ads to get traffic. It's kind of like their primary source. I mean, do people do SEO and things, right? But they just they're addicted to that paying that money, getting that traffic. And but under the surface, there's actually 10 rev hidden revenue leaks that are killing their margins and destroying their profits. So the way that we kind of look at it, it's like a faucet, right? You turn that faucet on with that paid traffic, and then um you uh and then and then it's like catching that that water with a bucket that's full of holes, but then not even realizing that there's holes in the bucket and wondering where the water went, right? That's where that's what these these t 10 hidden revenue leaks are, right? And so if you don't know that the holes are in the bucket, how can you fix it? And so um what we've what we've done is we've we've created tools to help help people fix the bucket so that they can they can store that water. Um but one of the reasons why these 10 uh revenue leaks are hidden is because they don't show up on your on on your P ⁇ Ls, they don't show up in your analytics, and a lot of times they're written off as the cost of doing business, the the the leaks that people do know about. And so if you if you think that something is a cost of doing business, why would you try to fix it? Right? You just think that you just write it off. And what we've found, we've done a ton of research on these 10 revenue leaks. And um, I mean we've done count we've looked at countless studies from top companies like Visa, Beimard Institute. Um there's there's about 60 studies that we've we've looked into, and it's it works out to about 37.9% of your potential revenue and your existing revenue that are being lost to these leaks. Now, that differs differs based on the company, right? Um, but it can be substantial. And if you're focused on just growing sales, but all that profit is going out the back door because of these leaks, then you you're just in a bad position in e-commerce.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

Well, I I'm excited to dive more into those revenue leaks as as we work through the podcast. I as I recall reading your book, Cash Flow, I had a huge aha moment where I spend an exc, you know, I'm a retired CPA, right? So I spend an excruciating amount of time looking at my PL and going through QuickBooks. And one of the things I really liked about it was most of these revenue leaks are not showing up on the PL. And they're oftentimes things that people aren't even aware of. And so, yeah, looking forward to diving into those. Now, most e-commerce owners think they have a traffic problem, but you see it differently. Why is this?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Well, because traffic really isn't usually the problem, and it's very easy and efficient to buy once you get your margins and conversion optimized. Traffic and revenue can be seen as vanity metrics, but net profit is bankable. Resellers on Shopify typically generate 10 to 20% net margins, and after CAC, that may be 5%, and nobody questions it. So is that exciting? Is that why we went into business? Online stores are pouring tons of money into traffic, but they're not converting that traffic at a profitable uh rate. So the idea is to actually not start with traffic, but reverse the sequence. The optimal sequence is to first fix the profit leaks, second, increase conversion in AOV, and then scale profitable and high converting traffic. Otherwise, you're scaling inefficiently. And there's the old business saying that says small problems become big problems when you scale. So a small problem today becomes a bigger problem at scale. Cash flow is built around that exact sequence to stack everything in the right order so growth actually becomes profitable.

Turning Processing Fees Into Upside

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

Now, you guys say that that brands can eliminate processing fees uh and even get paid to process transactions. How is that possible?

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Yeah, so we don't actually eliminate the fees, right? I mean, visa they got it, they want their piece of the pie, right? But what we do is we offset those fees by helping e-commerce websites to recover those those profits from those link from those leaks, those revenue leaks on their site, right? So if you think about it, most e-commerce sites, well, at least from the research that we've done and and and what we do, we know that it's a lot more than that two and a half to three percent that they're getting for um that the merchant is charging them. They're losing way more than that in these leaks. And so on average, we can help e-commerce sites to recapture 15% or more of that revenue. And so at that point, the math just becomes really simple. If we can help you recapture 15% or more of your revenue that you're losing to these leaks, you just sub- and you subtract that 2.5% to 3% merchant fee from that, you're ahead 12%. And so not only are you covering those merchant fees, essentially creating a 0% effective rate, right? But then you're actually gaining 12% in additional revenue. So it's like getting paid to process transactions because you didn't have that money before. And the reason why this is tied to the rate is because what we figured out how to do was actually we we built a merchant processing company. And so all people do is just switch from their current payment provider over to cash flow, and then instead of your existing payment provider taking all the profit, putting it in their pocket, what we do is we invest a portion of those proceeds back into your company, right? And so that actually turns your merchant fees from a loss, right, from a leak, from one of these leaks, your merchant fees are one of the 10 leaks, right? So we take that leak and we turn it into an asset for your company, right? Because as you know, David, that that 3% is just gone, right? Your transaction gets processed, you got a hundred bucks from that order, right? Three dollars is gone. You never see it, right? That's a leak. But if but people just write it off as the cost of doing business, right? But if you could leverage that money, if you could take it and you could leverage it to as an and and take and invest, think of it as an investment in your business, where we take a portion of that revenue and we put it back. And then what we do is we give you tools to stop the other revenue leaks. So then that money gets also put back in your pocket. That's why we can help businesses increase the revenue by 15% or more, which then offsets the rev the merchant fees and puts them in a positive state. And it doesn't cost them anything more than they're already paying, because they're already paying the merchant fees. So that's how it works.

The 10 Silent Profit Killers

SPEAKER_04 12:15

Very nice. I can tell you, as a as a business owner, being able to uncover 15% of hidden margin is huge. I mean, that that would dramatically change a business. And and you're absolutely right on the the merchant processing fees, you know, I never feel like I'm getting anything. I when I'm thinking of a product that's selling for$100, I know that$97 is going to go into my pocket to cover my cost of goods sold. And so being able to get something in return for for those fees uh is exciting. Uh because there's there's nothing else like this. So I mentioned a little bit earlier in the episode uh that there are some of these silent profit killers, and I think it's it's time to reveal them. Um so so what are these profit killers that that most brands are overlooking?

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Yeah, great question. Before we get into that, I just wanted to expand on the previous question and frame it so that people can understand it. And that is cash flow partners with our clients. We truly partner. What that means is as a partner, we're taking part of our profits, as Scott said, and reinvesting it back into your business by paying for the 15 different tools that drive uh traffic, revenue, uh, decrease um expenses. So we're literally reinvesting in your brand. And I think that's an important thing to keep in mind because it really does create a truly symbiotic relationship where everybody wins. So, to your question, uh what are those uh additional revenue leaks? Well, the big ones are processing fees, which we just talked about, fraud, false declines, chargebacks, fraud management, shipping losses, product returns, security issues, card abandonment, and site abandonment. All those things are working together, unfortunately, uh to erode your margin, erode your uh gross and net profits. And like Scott said, most brands either don't track these or they accept them as a normal cost of doing business. But once you actually measure them, you realize they're destroying your margins. That's why we put together these 10 tools specifically to fix each one. So you're not guessing, you're systematically recovering profits from these 10 different revenue leaks, or going back to his original analogy of a leaky bucket. If we can plug each one of those 10 leaks in the bucket, you're keeping obviously more profit. And it's that profit margin, as you know, David, that's critical because otherwise you're just you're just churning cash, right?$10 in,$9 back, and then you keep$2. Not very exciting. So you've got to make sure that you're uh recovering that lost revenue. When you add these solutions together, they compound in a positive way. And we call that cash flow stacking. And we talk a lot about that in the book. We're stacking cash flow, we're stacking uh fixes, and we're stacking additional revenue growth.

The Right Order To Scale

SPEAKER_04 16:41

Very nice, very nice. And now, too, as you guys know and as the listeners know, I'm a I'm a recovering CPA, and and I always like to apply real-world numbers to a particular scenario. And so uh say I'm an e-commerce website doing somewhere between a million and and ten million dollars a year. Um what's gonna be the impact of this on my business and and what's the fastest way to increase profits without more traffic?

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Yeah, so like DJ mentioned at the beginning, you have to reverse the order in how you build your brand. You can't start with traffic. I mean, you can, but you'll lose a ton of money in the process, right? So the first step has to be to recognize these these revenue leaks and fix the revenue leaks because they directly impact your profit margin. Your profit margin. That that's the end number that everything counts on, right? If your profit margin is thin, you have skinny kids, right? If if it's fat, you're going to to Fiji, right? And you're taking your friends with you. So you've got to fix the leaks and in and increase that profit margin. That's priority number one. Um, and when you do that, then you you stop wasting your money. And you do that by by by implementing these 10 tools that we have in cash flow, and that sets you up for success. That's the first thing.

SPEAKER_04 18:29

Okay, and and once those leaks are fixed, what's the next step?

Reviews And Behavioral Conversion Tools

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yes, the next step is optimizing for conversion. So we've got the revenue leaks addressed, identified, resolved, or mitigated. Now we start to drive the conversion rate. So in addition to the 10 revenue recovery tools, cash flow also includes five revenue growth tools. Conversion has been our core business for 15 years. We wrote the book Reputation King, which I think you've read. Um, and within Reputation King, we talk about these five revenue growth tools that are all about conversion, behavioral science, and driving high quality, low funnel, high purchase intent, organic traffic through QA, which is search optimized, and ratings and reviews, also search optimized and displayed through Google and Bing. So that's a huge part of the next step. Uh and then once, of course, they get to the site, then they see the social proof. They see uh a well-designed, well-laid out uh website designed for conversion and getting people from the home page to the category page to the product page to the checkout and the thank you page. Ultimately, the thank you page is obviously the money page. Um these tools include store ratings, product reviews, video reviews, QA, and a comprehensive automated reputation management system that distributes reviews across the web as needed to make sure you've got enough reviews and uh high-quality reviews across the web on multiple review platforms. This creates a trifecta where when people are looking at the uh organic search results and or the AI search results, they're seeing positive reviews on multiple review platforms, not just on one or just on your website. And these aren't just trust signals, they're really conversion multipliers. When you stack them correctly using behavioral science and increase your conversion rate and AOV and LTV, now you're cooking with gas. So now every visitor is worth more and your margins expand even further without adding any cost. Because as you know, if you can drive your conversion rate up, then obviously uh you can afford to buy more traffic.

SPEAKER_04 20:52

Absolutely. And so once we have conversion dialed in, traffic is the last step. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Exactly, right? Because now you've you've up maximized your your revenue margin, your profit margin, you maximized your conversion rate, right? That it even makes you more money, and that then you can maximize your traffic because now you can afford to pay for it. So that's on the paid side. But but one of the other cool things that cash flow does, and this is coming from our our years and years of experience in the trenches as a reputation company, um, we actually help our clients to play in two different worlds at the same time. So not only does the social proof that we collect help them on the conversion rate side on your website, right? Conversion rate optimization, but then we get to leverage it again in search. And because we have relationships and partnerships with Google and Bing and Facebook and YouTube and Walmart and right, like we've got we've been in this business for 15 years, well, 16 years actually. And so we know how to collect social proof and how to leverage it in search. And so in addition to the paid traffic, we can help you leverage organic traffic and not just organic traffic, but high quality organic traffic that is optimized and pre-sold on buying your products before they even get to your site, right? Because when you see listings in search that have star ratings next to them, right? That that sets you up for success before they even get there. And then they see your ratings again on your site and they're like, oh yeah, those match. This is I'm in the right place. This is the right product. Hundreds or thousands of people have already proven it out. I'm I'm gonna buy it, right?

unknown 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

And then you can do the same thing with QA. One of the one of the big misses that I would say most e-commerce sites have is they totally miss the value of strategic QA. They think that QA is just a simple widget that you put on a product page to answer random questions that customers have. But what it is, it's actually a very powerful engine that when you actually answer questions strategically with certain keywords and and uh done in a specific way, you can leverage that in search. And what is what is search? It's just a big question and answer engine. Right? Same thing with AI. All they want is they want the most relevant answer to the questions that customers are asking. So if you just answer the question, take a little bit longer to answer questions strategically on your site, we help to leverage those in search and in AI. So now you get this organic traffic coming into your site, and then they're getting there, and then they're seeing all this all these questions and answers answered in a really professional and informative way. And guess what? They're gonna buy more stuff. So so not only Only do you benefit from the traffic side on the organic traffic, but then you can also leverage your your ratings and reviews in your paid traffic, which increases your paid ads and your paid click through. So now you're getting more bang for your buck buck on paid traffic. You're getting free organic traffic that's high quality. Then they're getting to your their site, and and that social proof and those QA's are increasing conversion rate, and we fix the leaks to maximize your revenue.

SPEAKER_04 24:47

I r I really like that. And I really like how it's addressing both the organic and the paid traffic side of things. It's really a holistic way to give shoppers a better shopping experience. And at the end of the day, that's what we're after here in e-commerce. And so uh I really, really like that. Now, you guys also mentioned something about Cash Flow Club. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and how does it help?

Cash Flow Club Mastermind Teardowns

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Yeah, I'd love to talk about that. But once again, before going into that, I just wanted to talk a little bit more about QA. So if you remember or read the Google's decoding decisions, first came out in 2020, then they updated it in 2024. And it was really uh very deep global research around how people shop and research online. What it comes down to is what they call search modifiers, questions they have at the top of the funnel, mid-funnel, and bottom funnel when they're looking to buy a product. It's all about questions and answers. Uh a great book by Marcus Sheridan, they ask you answer. It's an entire book about answering questions people have online. He built an entire empire around simply answering the right questions on your website. And then this book came out recently about AEO, uh AI search, and it's also talking about answering the questions people have online. And if you do that, you've got that bottom funnel high purchase intent traffic coming to your site and showing up in the regular Google organic listings and the AI search results. So I just wanted to emphasize how important that is. So back to your question on the cash flow club. This may be our favorite part about the whole thing. Uh this is where Scott and I host a mastermind every Wednesday for 90 minutes, and we bring our clients together on a Zoom meeting and we talk about fine-tuning their website. We actually do uh live site teardowns. We analyze the site, we look for opportunities to further enhance the application of behavioral science or persuasion science. We look for ways to improve the navigation, uh, improve the category pages, the homepage, the product pages, the checkout page, uh, social proof, trust signals. Um we look at ways to reduce but also improve the amount of copy, because as we know, people don't read a lot of copy. Uh so we look for ways uh to remove all the superfluous copy that's gonna slow people down. We look at friction points, anything that's gonna cause friction, uh too many form fields, uh navigation that isn't going to the profitable pages in the site, uh too many products on a category page, for example. We know that three to five products on a category page is really the optimal. Unfortunately, a lot of category pages have page after page after page of products. Well, that's analysis paralysis, and so that slows down conversion. And anything that slows people down causes bounce rates. So we look at the site, we tear it down, we look at every page, uh, we talk about fine-tuning um optimization on the tools. We talk about how to drive traffic paid and organic. We talk about SEO, CRO, uh, everything that we can bring to bear to improve their business. And we bring on experts like you, David, uh to be what we call subject matter experts, to share their knowledge, their wealth of information, and talk about their solutions, their companies, their products, and how they can add more value to the community because it's all about creating that flywheel. And we want to continuously improve our clients' outcomes through the core products within Cashflow. But then we also have a host of what we call the Cashflow Collective, which is companies and products and services like Build Growth Scale that can help amplify their site and take them to another level. Uh you guys, for example, do coding and development. We don't. So there's an opportunity to bring in an expert like you to actually uh implement the ideas on their site. And this is this is really where the rubber meets the road. In fact, uh one of our clients just two weeks ago said, you know, two things I want to point out. He said, number one, the best thing I did this year was meet you and Scott. And two, uh, this is my favorite part about cash flow, because I get so much value out of this meeting. I get so much information on how to grow my business beyond just the tools. So you're not just improving your site with the tools, but every single week you're sharpening the saw. It's an ongoing flywheel effect that turns good businesses into great businesses.

Why Brands Do Not Fix Leaks

SPEAKER_04 29:53

Absolutely. And I'll second that. It, especially in e-commerce, it it can be kind of a lonely and isolated industry if you make it that way. But connecting to other entrepreneurs, seeing what's working in their businesses, seeing what's not working in their businesses is incredibly valuable. Uh the industry is changing at a remarkable pace right now, and and being able to talk to other people who are going through these fast changes as well just makes navigating things that much easier. And so, yeah, you guys have been in the industry for a long, long time and are very well connected. And and the Cashflow Club alone, I think, is makes this program worth it. So one of the things that I wanted to ask is a lot of these things seem very practical. Uh, why are brands not just fixing them on their own?

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Good question. How do you fix something if you don't know that that there's something wrong to fix? Right? Yeah. Um, I mean, you read the book. Uh even you, you were surprised at some of the some of the things that we pointed out in there. Right? That you're like, I didn't know this, and I've been doing this forever. Right? Yeah, and and even some of the things that you did know about, you probably didn't know there was a solution to fix it, like cost of doing business. Right?

SPEAKER_04 31:17

Absolutely, absolutely. A pra very practical example from the book would be abandoned carts. If you owned a brick and mortar store and somebody came in and uh stood in line and then got right up to the cash register and then said, Something's wrong, I'm out of here, you would definitely notice it. However, in in e-commerce, you don't get to see that. Uh, they just leave. And and it's not obvious and it doesn't show up on a PL. It's the revenues not there, the expenses of getting them to your website, but you just don't know why. Why did they leave? Uh, if you owned a brick and mortar store, you could chase them out into the parking lot and say, hey, why did you leave? Why did you abandon your cart? Uh and and but in e-commerce you don't have that ability. And and so um the the point you made about most brands don't know about this, I fully agree with that. I've been doing e-commerce for 15 years and and I had several aha moments reading through the book. And so um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

Now what what would you say to people who say this sounds too good to be true?

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Well, I'd say you need to uh be skeptical and do your homework. So again, Scott and I have been running ShopperPoov for over 15 years, 16 now. Uh we've made the Inc. 500 two times in a row, the Inc. 500, not the Inc. 5000. Uh we are uh multiple uh certificate holders in behavioral science, e-commerce marketing, uh, e-commerce optimization, CRO, SEO, et cetera, et cetera. Uh we've we've really done our homework, we've done a lot of research. Uh, we've been at this for well over a decade. Uh, and we we know our stuff. Uh our whole entire business model for Shopper Approved was built on trust and total transparency. And we run cash flow the exact same way. It's all about trust and transparency. Uh so when it comes to you know being skeptical, do your homework. Uh look into uh the book Cashflow, read it. Uh it's it's on Amazon. You can also get it for free at uh cashflowpay.com. And we've also built an online calculator. So when you go to cashflowpay.com, you can uh put in your contact information and you'll get access to the calculator where you can put in your own numbers. And the calculator will automatically tell you how much money is leaking out the back door and how much more money you can make. So you'll see that differential between I'm losing, let's say, 18% based on your calculations. Okay, and through the growth tools, I can improve my top line revenue by another 30%. So we can actually show you through the calculator very simply, very quickly, within a minute or two, what you're losing and what you're leaving on the table in terms of what your growth opportunity is. And of course, the book walks through everything. We've done all the research. We've spent over a year researching and writing this book. Uh we have all the citations, uh, we've we've cited everything from Visa to Equifax, MasterCard, um, like Beymart Institute, uh, et cetera, et cetera. And we've really, really um sharpened the saw to understand what's happening in the e-commerce environment, where the money is going, why it's going there, how to identify it, how to fix it, and then we talk about the tools. Every tool is is identified and broken down, every strategy is identified and broken down, and every leak is identified and broken down with tables, charts, graphs, et cetera. We really wanted to make this comprehensive and very clear so that any e-commerce owner or executive could quickly and easily uh start to identify, measure, quantify, and fix these revenue leaks while also adding a new revenue layer on top to grow their business through high quality organic traffic and of course increasing the conversion rate, AOV and LTV.

Where To Learn More And Close

SPEAKER_04 35:31

Absolutely. And I will I will second that. Go out and get the book. I will leave a link to it in the show notes. But absolutely great, great read. And if you're running an e-commerce business, there's information in that book that you absolutely need to know. So now, gentlemen, this has been very informative, and you guys have obviously cracked the growth code here. What can listeners do to learn more about cash flow and everything we've talked about today?

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Well, David, first of all, I want to thank you for having us on your show. It's been a lot of fun to share our story, our journey, our book, our product, and our solutions. Uh the best thing they can do is go to cashflowpay.com. That's without the W. So it's C-A-S-H-F-L-O pay.com. They can get the free digital and audiobook. They'll also get uh a link to the calculator and a bunch of other resources. They'll get links to all of the uh product demo videos, uh QA, etc. Uh then they can put in their own numbers and see exactly again what they're uh losing, what they're leaving on the table, and then that uh Delta, how they can improve their business and put money in their pocket so they don't have skinny kids.

SPEAKER_04 36:47

Well, very nice, very nice. Well, Scott, DJ, thank you so much for your time and uh thanks for coming on the show. We'll talk to you later.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Thanks, Avan.