You're an attorney, fresh out of law school or a seasoned veteran. Do you love your job? If not, you should consider elder law. Today, you'll hear the raw, real, and riveting stories of other attorneys, just like you, who have found a unique passion in this field. That's exactly what this episode offers, as we open the floor to attorneys from across the nation, sharing their personal journey in elder law.
Ever wondered how elder law can have generational effects? Or how attorneys can become a part of the family? This episode brims with eye-opening discussions on these topics along with our guests' personal anecdotes. Veteran practitioners share their experiences in the field, discussing the holistic approach to elder law, the complexities of public benefits and Medicaid rules, and the satisfaction of providing relief to clients.
Finally, we take you behind the scenes of the fulfilling career that is elder law. Each attorney shares why they find their work rewarding, what they find gratifying, and how they navigate the challenging aspects of their role. This episode serves as a testament to the impact and importance of elder law, and the profound satisfaction derived from helping others. So, if you're contemplating a career in elder law, or merely curious about the field, tune in for a wealth of inspiration, insights, and invaluable advice.
Check out our new website www.TheElderLawCoach.com.
You're an attorney, fresh out of law school or a seasoned veteran. Do you love your job? If not, you should consider elder law. Today, you'll hear the raw, real, and riveting stories of other attorneys, just like you, who have found a unique passion in this field. That's exactly what this episode offers, as we open the floor to attorneys from across the nation, sharing their personal journey in elder law.
Ever wondered how elder law can have generational effects? Or how attorneys can become a part of the family? This episode brims with eye-opening discussions on these topics along with our guests' personal anecdotes. Veteran practitioners share their experiences in the field, discussing the holistic approach to elder law, the complexities of public benefits and Medicaid rules, and the satisfaction of providing relief to clients.
Finally, we take you behind the scenes of the fulfilling career that is elder law. Each attorney shares why they find their work rewarding, what they find gratifying, and how they navigate the challenging aspects of their role. This episode serves as a testament to the impact and importance of elder law, and the profound satisfaction derived from helping others. So, if you're contemplating a career in elder law, or merely curious about the field, tune in for a wealth of inspiration, insights, and invaluable advice.
Check out our new website www.TheElderLawCoach.com.
This is the Elder Law Coach podcast with your host, Todd Whatley. Let's not waste time, let's get after it. Welcome back. Yes, I'm Todd Whatley, and Elder Law Coach podcast and I am super excited about today's show because I just got back from the National Elder Law Foundation meeting in Chicago earlier in September and I was able to sit down with some super cool people and talk to them about why they love elder law.
Speaker 1:And if you've listened to this podcast, to any of my previous episodes, you know that I absolutely left my job. I think it's the best job in the world and I do coaching because I want people to get into this and I want them to learn this and do it and learn of the experience. And you know, in some ways, I think you know that's unique to me. It's, you know, I love this. Maybe I'm the only one out there who just really loves my job, but I didn't think so. You know. I thought, you know maybe there's some other people out there.
Speaker 1:Without fail, every person that I interviewed sat down and had the same passion, the same feelings that I do about this line of work, and so we have those recordings today, and so I did the interviews with people from all over the country Washington, Houston to New Jersey, just everywhere, Georgia and I got some people who've been doing this for a lot of years and I got one guy who had been a certified elder law attorney for eight days.
Speaker 1:So you get all kinds of perspective, from the new person who's excited to the person who's been doing this for decades and still loves it. So join me. Today we're we're just going to go through it and I'm just going to let them talk. You won't hear me much. It's just their story of who they are and maybe where they practice and why they love this line of work. So if you're an attorney thinking about doing elder law, please stick with me and hear what these people have to say. And if, if you know someone who really hates their job and wants to get out of their line of work, send this to them. Tell them about this podcast and just hear the passion and the heartfelt sentiment that these people have toward their job and what they do every single day. So here we go.
Speaker 3:Hi, my name is Tye Cressman. I'm an elder law attorney practicing out of State College Pennsylvania. I graduated from law school in 2008. I keep in touch with a lot of the fellows I went, or a lot of the people I went to law school with, and so I can say that, almost without exception, the quality of life balance that I experienced in terms of time with family, but also just generally enjoying what I do on a day-to-day basis exceeds that of all of the people I've kept in touch with from law school. It exceeds that of the other I practice with non elder law attorneys as well.
Speaker 3:I have had a partner for years who was criminal law and I had one with family law People who actually loved that line of work. But I noticed over that period of time, not only was elder law and estate planning, I would say, much, much more lucrative, which doesn't necessarily need to be the most important thing but I had fewer deadlines, less pressure, at least in some pretty significant ways, and I spent a lot, many fewer of my weekends in the office. So I have three children a three-year-old, a six-year-old and a seven-year-old and, for context as to where they fall within my practice of law, I've been a practicing attorney for 15 years. So I've been a lawyer for 15 years and a father for seven years. For half of that I go home every single, and this helps living in a smaller community where my commute is relatively small, short, but I leave the office every single day at five o'clock. I get in the office every single day at about 8 or 8 30, and the great thing about our line of work is that a lot of it can be done remotely, it can be done from home.
Speaker 3:To do the best elder law work, I think you actually very much have to be face-to-face meeting with your clients, but you can take some of that work home and so, especially when my children were young, I wanted to be home at 4 30 or 5 o'clock and I would be home, be a father from 4 30 or 5 pm until 8 pm when the kids go to sleep, and then you know you have the ability to sort of do your drafting, do your document work at that point. So we're not controlled by a court calendar in ways that. One of the things I found very tough for some of my colleagues to tolerate was that the court gets to tell them where they're going to be and when, and there's a little bit of that in our line of work, especially if you do guardian ships or you do a lot of courtroom work and I've always done some but the court doesn't rule my schedule. I rule my schedule. I choose how many clients I take on in a week, those sorts of things.
Speaker 3:There is a fantastic book that I actually can't recommend enough for anyone contemplating this profession or in this profession.
Speaker 3:It's written back in 2015 by a New York Times author called Happiness is a Choice, where he followed around six people over the age of 85 and should be required reading for elder law attorneys.
Speaker 3:But one of the things he pointed out was and he was a non-elder law attorney, he was just a writer but was the tendency to be dismissive of the things that older people say.
Speaker 3:And sometimes I think we can all get busy and we get in this box and we say, all right, I'm gonna be surgeon-like with my dealing of this client. I'm gonna hear what's your problem, what are your assets, what are your situation, you know, get together the facts and fix it, but when you're able to slow down as a practitioner and really listen to the feast that is laid out in front of you more or less every hour, on the hour, all day long, every week of your career. You are brought in on a very intimate and important level to the lives of others who have lived experiences you can't even, can't even hope to imagine, but have also experienced things and done great things you can. You're borrowing the borrowing the lives of sometimes I'd say boring the lives of better people. But you're borrowing the lives of other people, hopefully to not only help them but to some extent maybe improve your own as well.
Speaker 4:Hello, my name is Beth McDaniel and I'm an in attorney in Washington State, Renton, which is in the, you know, greater Seattle, if you just say that. So I just think that is a privilege that I get to meet. You know so many people that I've haven't otherwise met. Early on in my practice, you know, dealing with a lot of World War II veterans, including at least one climate, who is a POW, self-published a book I felt so bad. I, after his passing I mentioned into the widow that I intended to read the book. She's like, oh yeah, a lot of people say that I was like, ah, stab me in the heart. But I read it and it was just amazing.
Speaker 4:He was captured by Germans, thankfully, versus the Japanese. And then you just blank, and all of a sudden you're dealing with Korean vets and then Vietnam vets. But also you know just families and stories you know, and it's often say you know, it's stranger than fiction, you just can't pick up some of the fact patterns. So that's, that's a pleasure, it's also just a lot of you know wonderful colleagues. Yeah, I learned to not trust my first impression, I think, of one client and I just did not like her. She was just snapped at me and was angry. Well then, come to find out she's going through breast cancer. Dealing with her mother's issues, going through a divorce, she ended up being one of my favorite people and she had the gift of organizing until she actually did some help with me, just from the nominal guardian for her mother. But yeah, because you're meeting people in crisis, sometimes at their worst. So it's taught me a lot.
Speaker 5:Patrick Curley at Curley Law Firm in Wakefield, Massachusetts. I like working with clients who look to me as someone who has knowledge that they don't have to help them figure out a solution to a challenge that's likely causing them stress, anxiety, emotional challenge, whether it's pre-planning or crisis planning. So I like being part of the solution team. So I'm not helping clients who are fighting each other, I'm not doing litigation and I'm not hired as a bulldog attorney. I'm hired as an attorney who brings expertise and it's nice to feel that level of respect from my clients and it's nice to feel like we are achieving a solution for them, and it's great to get their feedback when they post a Google review or send a card or simply give you a high five or a hug. I have a 10 and a 13 year old, and being an elder law attorney and running my own practice gives a certain element of control over my calendar and that has paid off tremendous dividends for us.
Speaker 5:Now, obviously, in any profession, even in elder law, you can, if you wish, work more hours than there are in the week or you can tailor it back, but at least you do have some element of control. I have relaxed some of my ambitions to achieve more of my time with my family. For me, that's something I value tremendously. But being an elder law attorney and not being a litigator we're not in court typically waiting for a judge hours and hours a day. Every day of the week I'll have court hearings.
Speaker 5:I've got one Monday in a guardianship type case and we're doing it virtually and we'll be in a virtual waiting room for the judge to appear and sometimes that might be two hours. But since it's virtual, I can work at my computer the whole time. So it gives me control. Here I am at a national NELF conference and I have the control to make my calendar work for that. Two weeks ago I was in South Korea for 11 days with my family and it gives me that control and I wouldn't give that up for anything. I came from an environment I first passed the bar in 97 and I worked for a corporate law firm in Los Angeles and they didn't have that respect for that time and I didn't see any of the shareholders who were living a lifestyle that offered the balance I was looking for.
Speaker 6:Teresa Bowman and I practice in Sarasota, Florida. The clients, that's the favorite, that's my favorite part of the day. If I could just talk to clients all day long and I didn't have to do anything else, I would be happy, because most of them come in looking for some sort of solution, some sort of answers. I don't always have those, but I can give them a path and assurances that, yeah, I can help you with this. And so it's nice when they always get up and say, I feel so much better. That's the best part of my day. They always say to me, what do I do now? And I say nothing, you don't have to do anything right now because I'm going to give you the next steps. So just relax, and so that they walk out feeling like a burden has been lifted.
Speaker 1:And this is Michael Delaney. He's the current president of the National Elder Law Foundation, and for some reason he did not state his name, so here's why he loves Outlaw.
Speaker 7:From the smattering of family law that I did before, I dove in, you know, feet first into elder law.
Speaker 7:I can absolutely understand why someone who's practicing family law might really dislike the practice and now might like leave you feeling exhausted and just unfulfilled at the end of the day. But if you help, I will tell you this. We have a state planning high net worth of state planning clients. I enjoy their company and I know that the type of thing that you do to help someone in that situation to minimize their tax exposure is intellectually challenging. And when you have done a good job for them, they thank you and appreciate your abilities and your guidance through that process. But as nice as that is, it does not compare to when you help a family that is poised to lose every last penny that they have that was looking forward to being able to have their grandchildren be the first ones to go to college. When you help that family in a way that they think or thought was impossible and yet you make it happen anyway. There are no more grateful clients than that.
Speaker 8:Marilyn Miller and I practice in Dripping Springs, Texas. I think the best part of doing elder law is being able to and this sounds so trite having that holistic practice where you get to deal with the individuals. You deal with their whole. It is not just a state planning, it is dealing with their lives, with their families, with helping them just plan for their future. A lot of times we will focus on crisis planning, primarily because the laws change so fast and so often in this area. We will get them set up but tell them not to do anything until they come back in. They will come in and say I want to avoid taxes. I will say which taxes? They look at me like huh. I will say we have property taxes, we have gift taxes, we have generation skipping taxes, we have estate taxes. And then I get the blank stare and say let us put taxes out of the equation right now because you probably won't have a lot of major tax consequences if you are planning for Medicaid.
Speaker 9:Shannon Lehman Pecoraro. I work at Park Ziegler in Virginia Beach, Virginia, so I do the full gamut of elder law. So that includes the estate planning, estate and trust administration, special needs planning and the long term care planning, guardianship stuff. So I think what I enjoy most is whenever you have a very complicated potential Medicaid plan and you can kind of put the puzzle pieces together and that visual relief that you actually see in a client. I mean, during COVID it was really hard for me because of the lack of hugs and everything else.
Speaker 9:So I think that warm and fuzzy and I'm not a warm and fuzzy person normally, but I think that just being able to have a real solution to a major problem for a family is what I see the benefit of elder law practices. Well, I think too, you have a generational thing that happens too. So you might be working with the kids to work on a plan for their parents, or maybe you're working on the parents' plan and the kids somehow get involved and so you kind of see that circular impact then, and once they've inherited the money or they've seen that their parents have had to go through something, then they start doing their planning. So you kind of become this unintended additional family member, and so I often tell them I was like you're paralegal becomes like your new best friend. You never knew you needed.
Speaker 10:Keith Miles. I practice in Atlanta Metro area, particularly Gwinnett County. Well, the particular reason that I got is I started with traditional state planning where you focus on end of debt, you know, under life planning, and then you start to see there's a hole in that. Okay, if I don't handle these expenses that might come at the end of someone's life, the documents I'm doing are just paper. There's no actually assets left. So that's really the reason why I want to. I want to make sure I can address everything and I'm by background a tax lawyer, kind of business oriented. So my thought is okay, if I can use those skills is kind of that ounce of prevention with a pound of cure. If I can do the planning enough, then I actually can handle the elder law if it comes. I do a micrometcate after protection trust so we can do the trust form, handle my elder law planning and then kind of pull everything together.
Speaker 10:But I think you have to have that extra angle of looking at things or else you're missing something. I didn't want to feel I was missing something. That was a gap in my plan. I try to focus on what we would call middle class, which is, course, very broad, but basically the way I look at it is if you some people who are so broke that they automatically qualify, they're not my client, right, they don't need me. Other people who have so much money that they will always private pays if they don't need. So I kind of for myself, have to find that to be more of a four million and under, because the taxable estate, the way we think about it, might have some illiquid things. So you might have the house and you know something that you can't sell, or building to sit in there.
Speaker 10:But for me, I'm looking at clients who are in a position where, either because I do special needs either they aren't worried about their own planning, but someone else's. So they might say, okay, I want to have this set up for someone else's essential elder planning, their disability planning, or they're looking at their own. And then we're trying to kind of focus on those kind of either two layers that I'm looking at at the same time. But for people who come to me for themselves, usually fifties, when I want to start talking to them about that, because if you talk to them before 50, a lot of times they just don't believe that it's urgent enough If you get some people who come of course at 70, 80, then you're worried are they is the health going to last through that period? So for me the sweet spot is 50 to 70. But I'll take anyone who's interested in having the discussion.
Speaker 11:My name is Bob Fectman and I'm an attorney in Indianapolis, indiana. My dad was a doctor and I thought I was going to be a doctor too, and when I got into law school I thought I was going to be an international law, whatever that means. I guess I pictured myself traveling around the country or traveling around the world and living other places and that sort of thing. But they started an elder law clinic in my third year in law school and I was drawn to elder law immediately, I think partly because it seems almost like a fusion of law and medicine, because you're working with elderly or disabled persons and they have a lot of legal issues that are quasi-medical. So for me it was the perfect marriage and I think that's also why I've really gravitated toward the special needs portion of elder law and I've always been more of a special needs attorney than I have been an elder law attorney. I work with a lot of families to do estate planning because they have children who have disabilities. So I do a lot of third party special needs trusts and all the other documents that go along with that.
Speaker 11:But I'm also a professional fiduciary.
Speaker 11:I'm a trustee of somewhere about 150 trusts and I've been doing that now for nearly 20 years, and it's a big portion of my revenue and the time spent in my office.
Speaker 11:I have six full-time employees altogether and two of them are just related to those fiduciary services that I offer, and I don't know what portion of my time I take on the special needs, but it's probably 60 or 70% at least, and then elder law. The rest of the time I do really enjoy it and I think that elder law attorneys are uniquely positioned to be trustees of special needs trusts, especially because we know the public benefits rules, and that's a big selling point when you're offering your fiduciary services, to say, I'm not going to have to go hire another lawyer to help me figure out the Medicaid rules or the SSI rules. I know those rules already and I think of it as a bonus too. When I'm the trustee I can help when problems come up with Medicaid and SSI also and I do have a fair amount of that when they have eligibility problems, much of which doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they have a trust or that I'm the trustee, but I'm still available to help.
Speaker 2:John McNair, Dallas, Texas. So I was a traditional I into state planning attorney state planning and probate for many years. I got a master's in tax law at SMU. That's how I ended up in Dallas. But in the mid-2000s I decided to transition not necessarily give up the state planning probate, but have more elder law in my practice. I dabbled in it and I didn't like the way I dabbled. I felt like I really needed to commit if I was going to do it. So I went to a lot of training. So now, for a while there it was traditional state planning, probate, va and Medicaid cases. I did a lot of VA cases and then, of course, the VA and its infinite wisdom in 2018 decided to more or less shut that practice down. So it's now mostly Medicaid and a state planning associated with that Medicaid planning and traditional state planning and traditional probate. So there's two things about it and I went to a Texas.
Speaker 2:NAELA has a conference in the summer every year and one of the prominent attorneys in Texas, Clyde Farrell, was talking about the first time he ever went to an unprogram and he brought his wife with him and she's a social worker and after listening to them for about a day or so, she said you know, you do realize, y'all are not attorneys anymore, y'all are social workers. And I said and I thought he was exactly right, that's why I love it so much, because in a state tax planning we're just helping wealthy people stay wealthy and they're perhaps deserving and perhaps undeserving heirs stay wealthy. Because in elder law we're truly helping middle class people in potentially desperate economic straits. So that's very rewarding. Also, when the estate tax practice kind of went away too, there's no middle class estate tax planning anymore, which was the bread and butter of my practice for so many years.
Speaker 2:I was kid when people asked me transitioning from that to elder law and I said, well, it's still an intellectual puzzle that I'm solving and I love that. And what do estate tax attorneys and elder law attorneys have in common? They make assets magically disappear. That's what we do and I really enjoy that intellectual knowing. You know this is a technique or a strategy that works here. This is a different one that works there and it's just the same type of planning applied to a different topic.
Speaker 12:So my name is Angela Odinsky and I practice in Houston, Texas. I also am licensed to practice in Washington as well, so I got my certified elder law attorney certificate last year. So I've been a sealer for about a year and an elder law attorney for about seven years almost eight now. So my practice is mostly transactional. I do estate planning, I do generally crisis Medicaid planning, some long-term care planning, some pre-planning. When I can, I also do uncontested probate and uncontested guardianships.
Speaker 12:I don't do anything contested in my office and I kind of keep it simple. Our system is complex and it's complicated. It's not because anyone's fighting. It's because they don't know how to navigate it and so they pay me to help walk them through a very complex situation. I don't do fighting. I'm not there for that. Like some people really, they live for the fight. I don't live for the fight. I want to prevent issues before they happen and, like the most I'm going to fight is with Texas Health and Human Services. When we're dealing with a Medicaid application. I have no problem sending a nasty gram to the case workers when they asked me for information that I've already sent them. Right, but that's about as contested as I get, but it doesn't mean that the matters aren't complex. It doesn't mean it's not fun. It doesn't mean there's not a lot of analysis and a lot of like legal strategy that has to go into managing the matters. It just means that there's no opposing counsel makes life much better.
Speaker 12:When I first got into this, one of the one of the more highly respected elder law attorneys in my jurisdiction said that she always called this happy law, because what we are doing we are. We are taking clients at their most vulnerable, when they're like the world is crashing, and we are giving them a way to take the next step and to move forward. And we are giving them solutions to a problem that they didn't know that they were going to have to deal with and they certainly had no idea what the next steps might look like. And so we are. We are taking people by the hand and we are walking them through a very difficult time in their lives, and when we're done, there's so much just gratitude and it's so fulfilling and it's so meaningful. And so, from my perspective, if you want to get into this area, you have to really like working with families and you have to really want to help people navigate these issues. It is. It is a full heart and soul area of law, but it is satisfying in ways that I couldn't imagine being in another area of law could possibly be.
Speaker 12:My clients hug me all the time and sometimes that they're hugging me when they're crying and they're hugging me when they're happy. And you know I mean as an elder law attorney. We lose our clients and when you know when, when I've worked with a client to get their Medicaid application done, and it's everything set up, everything's done, and the spouse is living their life and then the spouse one spouse passes away, the other spouse comes in and we deal with all the rest of it and it's. You know, there's a box of Kleenex sitting on my table for a reason that it's part of it. This is, this is a, it is, it is. It is sad, but it is fulfilling and it is meaningful.
Speaker 1:OK, there we go. That, I thought, was a great group of people who obviously you, hopefully you could tell by the sound in their voice that they absolutely love their job, love what they do, and I had the best time compiling that, listening to those over and over again and just hearing the passion. And I'm sorry that you could not sit down across from these people. And you know, just see the look in their eye, their body language. They were not faking this. They, you know, this is absolutely something that each of those people love, what they do every day, and they love the work that they're doing, the help that they're providing the people that they are helping. You could just tell that this is something that they absolutely love to do. And this was just a handful.
Speaker 1:At this convention I think there were 75 certified law attorneys and I think I could have sat down with anyone in that room and got very similar stories, very similar emotions. And just encourage you if you are sick and tired of what you're doing right now as an attorney, I highly encourage you, think about it. It's fun, it's helpful, it's, it's rewarding. And if you need help, the first place I would recommend is turn to your state elder law bar there. I think every state has a an elder law section. Call them, join, go to the meetings, meet with the people. You will find most elder law attorneys tend to be very open and sharing and will help you. And you know they're going to be a little cagey because you know this is their living. But if you want to do full on knowing nothing up to being a pretty good elder law attorney, think about coaching. Think about the elder law coach, coaching and I would be glad to talk to you. Go to my website, the elder law coachcom, or email me at Todd@TheElderLawCoach. com. I would love to answer your questions, talk to you and no pressure whatsoever. Let's just talk and see what I can do for you and you can also.
Speaker 1:I would encourage you also to get familiar the National Elder Law Foundation that is NELF. org. Go to their website. There's a ton of information there. Call the office. You'll probably talk with Meg. She's super sweet and she will give you a ton of information, help you get started on this journey of first doing elder law and then, once you do it all, I would highly encourage you go through the process, get the experience, do the study and become a certified elder law attorney and that will be my next podcast, because I sit down with these same people and ask them why become certified. But your first step right now is just decide if you're tired of doing what you're doing right now. Think about elder law and listen to these people and do a work that is just extremely fulfilling and helpful and just it's the best job in the world.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you so much for listening. Please join us. There's past episodes, there will be future episodes and I look forward to talking to you through the podcast in the future. And again, if you need me, give me a call. Thanks, you've been listening to the Outer Law Coach podcast. For more information, go to our website, the order law coachcom. Thanks, and we'll see you next time.