Embark on a journey with me, Todd Whatley, as I sit down with the exceptional Samantha Shepherd, a beacon in the world of elder law and founder of Assured Trust. Our latest Elder Law Coach podcast episode promises to unveil the complexities of trust management through the lens of Samantha's admirable mission to provide fiduciary services rooted in compassion—a calling that came to fruition amid the unpredictability of a global pandemic. Her stories of navigating the creation of a trust company, especially for those with special needs, will not only enlighten but also inspire you to consider the profound impact of thoughtful estate planning.
As we converse with Samantha, she imparts her wisdom on the delicate art of choosing a trustee, revealing why partnering a family member with a trust company can safeguard the future and maintain harmony. The role of independent corporate trustees is given its due spotlight, emphasizing their importance in preventing financial missteps and preserving relationships with financial advisors. Beyond financial distributions, we dissect the trustee's pivotal role in enhancing the beneficiaries' quality of life, stressing the necessity of their deep involvement and specialized knowledge. This episode is an essential listen for anyone looking to secure their legacy with a touch of humanity and expertise.
Assured Trust Phone Number: (913) 521-9200 https://assuredtrustcompany.com/
Check out our new website www.TheElderLawCoach.com.
Embark on a journey with me, Todd Whatley, as I sit down with the exceptional Samantha Shepherd, a beacon in the world of elder law and founder of Assured Trust. Our latest Elder Law Coach podcast episode promises to unveil the complexities of trust management through the lens of Samantha's admirable mission to provide fiduciary services rooted in compassion—a calling that came to fruition amid the unpredictability of a global pandemic. Her stories of navigating the creation of a trust company, especially for those with special needs, will not only enlighten but also inspire you to consider the profound impact of thoughtful estate planning.
As we converse with Samantha, she imparts her wisdom on the delicate art of choosing a trustee, revealing why partnering a family member with a trust company can safeguard the future and maintain harmony. The role of independent corporate trustees is given its due spotlight, emphasizing their importance in preventing financial missteps and preserving relationships with financial advisors. Beyond financial distributions, we dissect the trustee's pivotal role in enhancing the beneficiaries' quality of life, stressing the necessity of their deep involvement and specialized knowledge. This episode is an essential listen for anyone looking to secure their legacy with a touch of humanity and expertise.
Assured Trust Phone Number: (913) 521-9200 https://assuredtrustcompany.com/
Check out our new website www.TheElderLawCoach.com.
You're tuning in to the Elder Law Coach podcast, the definitive resource for attorneys delving into the world of Elder Law, with your host, todd Watley, a certified Elder Law attorney, past president of the National Elder Law Foundation and renowned coach with a quarter-century of specialized experience. Whether you're an established attorney looking to refine your expertise or an emerging lawyer seeking a successful foray into elder law, this is your masterclass. Now let's get started with the luminary in the field. Here's Todd Watley.
Speaker 2:That's right. This is the Elder Law Coach podcast and I am so thankful that you are joining me. I appreciate everybody who downloads every single episode we get, and today I'm super excited. I'm not here by myself, thank goodness.
Speaker 3:Ooh, hello, hello.
Speaker 2:I have a guest and her name is Samantha Shepherd hey.
Speaker 3:Samantha. Hello, I'm very happy to be here. It's wonderful to be in Arkansas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is beautiful, and particularly today. We're recording this in late February and it's actually kind of warm here, so it is beautiful. If you don't know Samantha, and if you know anything about Elder Law, you've probably heard of Samantha Shepherd. She's a big wig in the country.
Speaker 3:Oh, not true, but thank you.
Speaker 2:She speaks a lot and she is a certified Elder Law attorney, just like me. But the reason she's here today primarily is because she has created a trust company and I am super excited about it. I'm so excited that I am working with her on that and trying to promote this, and so, yes, there is some promotion here today, but I am super excited that someone with the heart and knowledge of a certified Elder Law attorney has created a trust company. It just seems like a beautiful mix to me, Thank you.
Speaker 3:Am I allowed to tell them the history? Yes, please, okay. Well, I was in a group of Elder Law attorneys in an embassy suites in Texas and they were banging around ideas about whether or not individual lawyers could serve as trustees and should serve as trustees. So the thought the seed was kind of planted with me. I went back home to my office, serendipitously in walks, a special needs gentleman who is not really popular with his sister, mom and dad have passed away. They've left him a million dollars. Wow, wouldn't that be nice? Yeah, but the sister really wants no part. So at that point I am thinking, gosh, how interesting it is that I had this group of nailer friends who were telling me all about individual attorneys serving as trustees. Maybe he'll be my guinea pig. And I literally had two others that were teed up at that same time that were one of them was a sole benefit trust, an individual lady in a nursing home. We were able to get her instant Medicaid eligibility because her daughter had a disability. We get her Medicaid by taking all the assets that she had, putting it in a sole benefit trust. And who was there? To serve no one. So Smith's Shepherd Fool.
Speaker 3:I really did feel a little bit like I was taking on something. So I took on those and it turned out I had about a dozen of them and my own let's say age, my own thoughts about the future. One of them was coming through a court, so it was a birth injury, it was over, it was close to $2 million. That was coming in to look after an individual who had been purportedly hurt during birth and well, so if I took that on, I couldn't stay there forever. So it just made me think about the future, not just me serving, but beyond my life. So I started researching the idea of what a corporate trust entity would look like, how one creates one and strap on your seatbelt. It's a lot of work, a lot of hoops and a lot of money, and some states really don't want you to do it, so they make it. So you can't open one without $10 million.
Speaker 2:That's ridiculous. Yeah, that's ridiculous so.
Speaker 3:Kansas was not that, but when they they required residency. So I was only able to start a short trust because I live in Kansas. But now I have, with this trust entity, authority to transact business in all 50 states, which is a great thing. So I have been learning on the fly by setting this entity up, it was approved. I got the green light in the middle of COVID Fantastic timing, Wow. So you'll love this. I have four sons Andrew, Adrian, Alexander, Ashley, all ACE, all born in June. Assured trust and A name purposely because of those boys with their A's, and it was approved in June. What do you think of that?
Speaker 2:Wow, hatch it straight. Did you plan that? No, not at all.
Speaker 3:Neither were their births planned to be in June. I mean, really not that kind.
Speaker 2:You're not that, I'm not quite like that. Okay, interesting.
Speaker 3:Lovely children, lovely trust company. So I got that approval to open assured and the Frank. Frankly, the first year we were in such, I would say all of us probably fairly in the world were traumatized by COVID. But we were in the law firm setting. I was paralyzed, thinking I couldn't pay people and how could I run my law firm. So my intentions were very divided. I had no interest really in doing anything with the short trust for that first year because I was just trying to doggy paddle as hard as I couldn't keep Shepherd law going. So Shepherd's doing its thing coasily and then this happens in an elder law practice. You see these sole benefit trusts. You see the D4A's, you know the first party special needs trust that come in without a corporate fiduciary or with a corporate fiduciary that will only step up if there's a million bucks or two million bucks, or 2.5.
Speaker 3:I was telling you this summer. A big player in Kansas City, commerce Bank, says their minimum fee is $27,000 a year. So that's basically a two and a half million dollar threshold.
Speaker 3:So for special needs, if it's a settlement, okay, you can see those. But what if it's just mom and dad trying to set up a third party trust? Leave their kid a little bit of term insurance and they think their $500,000 is a lot. Well, it's hard to find a corporate trustee. We had a chat earlier, you and I, about why a corporate trustee is better than a person. And have you, have you, bought into that?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I mean particularly. I mean we. We did the radio show this morning. I think all of my listeners know that I do. One in this sweet little lady called in, you know, saying I don't have much and I think my daughter's the trustee, but I'm not sure, and it it would just be so much easier if she had named you as the corporate trustee. You know exactly what to do when she dies. It's like, yeah, we get to work and we can do this. She was worried that her daughter no more and she was like who's gonna do it then? If it is my daughter, I'm not sure she actually knows what to do.
Speaker 3:Of course, they don't know what to do. Most lawyers don't know how to do trust administrations and most elder attorneys don't. We help in crisis planning often. So the trust administration it's more paperwork and you're dealing with people less. You know. We love elder attorneys usually love interacting with people. Trust administration is more bookkeeping and tax work and is a certain skill set and assured pick set up. We just get to work over there, and when I say we, it's not me, that that is not my love. I love people and I love telling them that assured trust is their solution. But we have a team and in that group, assured trust, someone is going to hold their hand, make sure the taxes are done by, by the right deadlines and all the right eyes or dotted T's are crossed and the peace of mind. This poor little old woman you were right she has no idea if her bank account is titled in her name, in the name of the trust, or if it has a transfer on death, because that's normal.
Speaker 2:It's very common well and it came to, came later in that phone call that she's my client. She thought that was hilarious. She saw not me but one of my associates in the other firm and I have now agreed to start being more involved in funding for that very reason, because she's like I just don't know well, we need to make sure, and so I've taken that on in my office as being now. I will help clients do funding.
Speaker 3:I will charge for that.
Speaker 2:I haven't decided that yet.
Speaker 3:I think the answer should be yes, but perhaps that's a topic for another day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, but I mean I think I charge enough. I'm probably at the higher end of the market and I think I think we could probably absorb that. I mean, I want to make sure that it's funded Okay, and my thought right now is that'll just be part of the fee.
Speaker 3:I understand. I think that I have seen that model work effectively, but then the price has to be modified. It is work. You have to collect all of the financial data and walk it through banks, which means getting a limited power of attorney or some kind of yeah, and then be careful still. I would counsel others. Be careful that you ensure that you have something in writing that you're not assuming responsibility. You're not liable for the failure to adequately fund or the bonds or stock that they didn't tell you about, or the mineral interest, or the land somewhere upon the hill.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're still trying to figure that out exactly, but I mean, that's not the topic of today's today's corporate trustees, right and trustees, and when you need one and when you don't need one.
Speaker 2:So help us explain to clients when we bring up. You know they're not sure who to do it. I might appoint all three of my kids as trustees, or you know they're doing something that we know is a bad idea. Yeah, give us some talking points about what we can say to clients to get them to name a sure trust as their success or trustee.
Speaker 3:Well, first tell them how much is involved in terms of work, that it isn't an honor or a privilege to be a trustee, right, and the idea of naming three children to act as co trustees it's. You know, it's often difficult, if not impossible, to dissuade a family from that. So what we can do then is say how about we name the child as co trustee with the bank? In our case we're not a bank, so how about co trustee with the trust company? And that's more palatable, because mom has determined, foolishly or not, that her child would be hurt if she did not choose to name him as trustee. And so sometimes there are some trusts. So you might say, for example, how about you name a corporate entity with your child so that that corporate entity can do the work and your child can oversee or have the opportunity to terminate the trustee if they're not doing a good job? They like that. So that's a good way to get your point across. But sometimes they literally just ask I'm sure you get this who should I name?
Speaker 3:Now, if I am the drafting attorney, I personally have to say right, then pause. I have to explain to you that I wear two hats. This is a potential conflict of interest that I need to disclose and explain to you thoroughly before we go any further. I am your lawyer and I have a trust company that I started. Do I think it's a good option for you? Of course I do, but you might need independent counsel and this piece of paper I'm putting in front of you says you should have this looked at independently to make sure that a sure trust is the right option for you.
Speaker 3:So, telling a family number one, you need a trust because you have $100,000 in a house or you have multiple beneficiaries. One of them could have a death, disability or there's some complexity in your family dynamic. They've just swallowed something new. You need a trust and they won't understand, like your lady, how to get things titled in the name of the trust. Do I go to my bank? I only have historically handled LLCs. I do assignments and real estate. I do the deeds to get the house or other property.
Speaker 3:Okay, so then I do schedule a three year automatic follow up. I will see you in three years. Now I simply send a notice, which a good 50% of them disregard because they know they're going to have to go in see the lawyer pay a fee, and at the time that they do come in, the other 50% the focus is on show me what money you have now, show me that you have funded it properly and have there been any significant changes in your life. Now we've had the Secure Act, so we've had major legal reasons to change most documents that so many of our clients have IRAs, 401ks, that inevitably that's enough of an impetus to do a restatement or an amendment. So if you're going to look at your watch, that tells me I'm talking too much, you tell me if I'm going too far.
Speaker 2:I just got notified of something.
Speaker 3:So no, you're fine. Okay, he's a multitasker. So now you've got the families convinced that they need a vehicle to avoid probing. So most of my people are not doing tax planning, they're just doing life simplicity. Life simplicity means get a trust. It's going to go in equal shares and it'll flush right out to those three kids unless and the unless is really important Unless there's a divorce, unless there's a disability, unless there's a death. And now the money's going to the children of your children and they are minors. So then you need that trust to step in and pick them up at those very stages, and that's work. So I had a young woman come in. Unfortunately she passed of cancer very young. She had no children. She had no spouse, no children and a sister she wanted to leave the money to and she said my sister's married to a loser. I'm just being blunt this is what she said.
Speaker 3:I don't like him, I don't care for him. He manipulates her, so I can't give her this money outright. Besides, she'll mingle it with him and then they'll divorce. So she wanted it to be held in a trust for a long time and she wanted someone else to be in charge of doling out this money.
Speaker 3:So the sister couldn't yeah somebody else to say yes or no. She didn't think her own sister should be pressured by having to say yes or no and there's pressure. So if your sister in this scenario gets the husband saying honey, we need, we need three cars, we need a new XYZ Boat.
Speaker 2:We need a boat.
Speaker 3:We need a boat, so you want to cause marital friction? No, an independent corporate trustee, I've learned. Independent means several things. Corporate trustee usually means non-human. Some states have these professional trustees, which I find are interesting because often they are lawyers, but we are like a bank, but we don't bank. I've also found that most banks have trust companies, almost all of them in Kansas. So there's a handful in my state where there's a trust company that operates on its own and those, historically, were formed because they were managing money. Here's the fun part about assured we let people keep the money wherever they want.
Speaker 2:So here's a practice tip for you guys If you're working with a financial advisor who has had that experience where his client named the local bank as the trustee at that person's death, that advisor lost the money. The money went to the bank to be in their investment accounts for the bank's investment accounts, so that the bank could be the trustee.
Speaker 3:Pause, if I may. I'm less worried about the death for that advisor than what we deal with every day the incapacity Sure. Okay, yeah, that's true. So here's grandma, who's worked with local financial advisor for 40 years. She gets to mention the trust names Arvest Bank and Bye Bye Financial Advisor when we need decision making about does she need to sell the house? Does she need independent assisted? They don't know the difference between memory care and long-term care, so assured trust has made that its business. We focus on often the special needs population and then those who need a helping hand, which are typically these seniors in the crisis time.
Speaker 2:So your marketing plan you attorneys that they're listening to this can be hey, financial advisor. If you send clients to me, I'm going to recommend assured trust, and assured trust will still use you as the financial advisor.
Speaker 3:That's exactly right, and it's a limited number of options that financial advisors have. Almost all, almost all trust companies manage money. Also, they don't tell you that. We don't understand that as consumers or lawyers. So if you just name so, for example, who would know that about Arvest Bank? You don't look at a bank and think, ooh, they manage money. If we name them as a trustee, they'll be in charge of the taxes and the distribution schedule and oh. So if the money's invested in the local wonderful broker I've used forever, it's gone. It's gone to Arvest or whomever Right.
Speaker 2:And I know a lot of investment companies the household names named companies that invest money. They have a trust department.
Speaker 1:And so.
Speaker 2:I've gotten paperwork from like Edward Jones to say, hey, here's the language, our trust department. You wanna talk about an impersonal? I have no idea who's going to be my trustee type person.
Speaker 3:Let's specifically talk about Ed Jones. Ed Jones I didn't know that they had a very active presence here, but they do have an active presence in Missouri and Kansas Trust company. Ed Jones Trust company is physically located in St Louis. That is where its trust offices are and that is the only venue where the trust officers reside. They will not handle any trust that is under a million and I believe their threshold for special needs trust is 2 million. I could be incorrect on that, but that's trusts that are under a million. I have Ed Jones advisors who are telling me help because this is only a $300,000 trust but it's very important to this beneficiary. It's not uneconomical, as the terms of the trust say, but no one's willing to step up for these smaller amounts.
Speaker 2:True. So just to practice it, talk to your financial advisors who refer folks to you and say hey, if you'll send me your trust business, I can make sure that you'll be the financial advisor for the rest of this person's life, and possibly even to the kids it's business continuation for them. Business continuation yeah.
Speaker 3:So sometimes these financial advisors are trying very hard to get the kids in and in front of them so that they can have a relationship, but they are not aware that getting the kids in and getting their relationship is not going to help. If there's another entity named as trustee, it's too late.
Speaker 2:It's too late. Too late. So telling people I wasn't surprised by this, but I am pretty close with you and I know what y'all do. But on the radio show this morning you mentioned a typical day for one of your advisors. So let our listeners know what your advisors do specifically and how intricately involved they are with your customers.
Speaker 3:Okay, I think very few of us understand this. We set up the trust and we're done, and we don't have any knowledge because we've never worked as trust officers, because most trust officers are not attorneys or if they are, they're not practicing law. So a typical trust officer that's the ubiquitous term we call us trust and care officers. But trust officer is this ubiquitous term across the trust industry, and they are typically given a what is called a book, and your book is based on, typically, dollars, and so you might be given, let's say, a hundred million, or you might be given 150 relationships, and so you're in charge of 150 people. So if just think what your life is like, typically you're reactive 150 people. You're going to get 10 phone calls a day. You're going to get 15 phone calls a day If there's a calamity in the market. You're going to get 50 emails so they're not wired, programmed or directed to get on the phone and say hey, todd, how are you doing today? I'm a little worried about you. We're gonna send out a nurse to just check on you because it's been a while, or there's no one from. We have a care team. It's this wonderful concept that we have some volunteers and we have some sort of people working that are happy to go and sit at the movies and eat popcorn with some of our special needs beneficiaries. Quite literally, that's cool.
Speaker 3:So yeah, if you live in a group home and you are happy in your life, your distant sister, who's the trustee living out of state, thinks well, you know, she lives in the group home, she doesn't need anything, she's wrong. If mom were in town, what would mom be doing? So mom would be taken out to the movies, mom would be running it through Wally World and picking up a video. That isn't mandatory but it makes life better, excuse me. So a trustee's job should be more than reactive. It should be more than I'm going to send you income distributions every quarter. It should be how can I make your life good? And sometimes that means a trip to Branson, right, and then I got to pay a caregiver because you're all kinds of needy walking around Branson. Sure, but that's why I left that money.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, and so your people are actively involved. They pick up the phone and call.
Speaker 3:They pick up the phone and call. They've not heard from them.
Speaker 2:They show up, they arrange transportation. They're to me. That's what a trustee should be doing, is they're being paid to care for this. Not care for them, but to be observant of this person and provide what this person needs.
Speaker 3:In a special needs context. It's not happening. It's absolutely not happening. What we as lawyers are often finding I'm sure that all listening to this podcast will agree is you're getting phone calls from friends, colleagues or other trust officers in your town saying, hey, I've got a guy who's getting social security and I want to know if I'm allowed to give, if I'm allowed to give him cash. And the hair on the back of my neck is sticking up and first I say, well, what kind of benefits? Well, I don't know. It's social security, is it SSI or is it SSDI? How will, how will I know? Now, this is the trust officer whose job it is to manage the distributions we call these distribution, to basically decide what we are spending money on. And they don't have a special needs expertise. That's okay, because we've been helping them. But this unrest that was growing in me, todd, that it wasn't right. I had a well, it was formerly Bank of America trust company wrote a $25,000 check to a woman who lived in HUD and got Medicaid.
Speaker 2:Oh God.
Speaker 3:What happened she lost. She was excited to get that money. She had never seen anything like that in her life. She celebrated all the way until the end of the month. Now, at the end of the month, that 25,000 was gone and she was no longer HUD eligible and she had lost her SSI. So thank you, bank of America, and I'm very glad you're not in the trust business anymore. Wow, interesting. So that's one of the reasons that assured trust came into being, because we would see these special needs trust that were in just grave danger and often did result in Medicaid ineligibility. I have a local bank that was giving cash willy-nilly as the beneficiary asked for it. You can't do that. We all elder attorneys know no cash.
Speaker 2:No cash. No cash, no cash. Wow, okay, all right. So I try to keep these under 30 minutes and we're at 25, basically. So anything else you think our listeners need to know?
Speaker 3:Okay, Five minutes is all you're giving me to tell them Everything they might want to know about a corporate trustee. How about this? At minimum, when the family is reticent to name a corporate trustee, name them as a contingent or the successor so that if the person named as the trustee feels overwhelmed because it's a job, that there is a named corporate entity as a backup, If you name assured trust as a backup, you don't have to pay a penny. But they do go on some lists and those educational material and some reach out happens from assured trust. Know that we are open to educating the lawyers about so that you go back to your client and can feel well versed about what's an acceptable distribution. So we're here to help.
Speaker 2:Okay, I've done this twice and it's worked both times. Well, not, it worked. I said, if you have questions, here's the number call, assured trust. They've called and I think both of them spoke to Evie I spoke to one as well.
Speaker 3:Was that a third? Okay, yes, that's right, that's a third one.
Speaker 2:And every one of them has said absolutely, let's use assured trust. And so if they have questions, if they, if, as you said, if they are reticent, give them the number, have them call and talk to y'all. You'll answer the phone, not you, but someone will answer the phone, someone will talk and everyone that I have seen has said oh yeah, they're good people, I like them, let's use them, and so I have found great success with that and I would encourage all of y'all. If you have someone that is thinking about it and once a corporate trustee, I would definitely recommend assured trust.
Speaker 3:Well, I thank you for having me. I appreciate it, you're welcome.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to ask you the phone number.
Speaker 3:So you think I gave away the mints?
Speaker 2:The phone number will be in the notes, the show notes.
Speaker 3:I will give you a link, but it is assured trust company A-S-S-U-R-E-D, trustcompanycom, and you can type all that one word in once.
Speaker 2:So it's not CO, it's C-O-M-P-A-Y.
Speaker 2:It's the whole thing Okay type the whole thing easy website, but I will put those notes. I will put that information in the show notes so you can just click on that. But I like it. I like what she's doing. She is a very good elder law attorney and she's taken that passion and passed it on to a trust company and everyone there carries her desire, her love for this and they do a fantastic job. So I would recommend it. If y'all have questions, you can always call me and, as always, if you would like to do elder law and do it well, I would love to be your coach and you can just call the office 479-601-4119. Ask for Trisha and she will give you some information and then set you up with a phone call with me. I would love to speak with you and say if you wanted to do coaching and I think I can make you a pretty good elder law attorney If you give me a year give me a year and I'll make you a pretty good elder law attorney. Okay, all right, thanks, samantha.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining this episode of the Elder Law Coach podcast. For those eager to take their elder law practice to new heights and are interested in Todd's acclaimed coaching program, visit wwwtheelderlawcoachcom. With Todd Watley by your side, the journey to becoming an elder law authority has never been more achievable. Until next time, keep learning, keep growing and stay passionate about elder law.