The Elder Law Coach

Ep. 37 Trends in Elder Law - What is Coming?

• Todd Whatley

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Discover the evolving world of estate planning and financial advising in our latest episode, featuring insightful contributions from Todd Whatley, the Elder Law Coach, and certified financial planner Ian Weiner. You won't want to miss Todd's candid apology for the delay in new episodes as he commits to more frequent and valuable content. Ian takes us through the types of financial advisors, emphasizing the fee-only model and the industry's shift towards comprehensive financial planning. Gain from Ian's extensive experience as he underscores the necessity for transparency and client-focused advice, steering away from mere asset management. This episode sets the stage for a two-part series, starting with emerging issues in estate planning and financial advising.

In the second part of our discussion, we tackle the critical topic of effective sales strategies in professional services. Ian and Todd highlight the importance of being assertive and ethical when offering services, likening it to saving a drowning person with a life raft. Todd shares his journey from hesitating to push financial services to realizing the positive impact of a proactive approach. Together, they delve into the ethical duty to provide clients with the best possible service and avoid the pitfalls of subpar assistance. Learn about the significance of profitability for a sustainable business and the role of effective salesmanship in client success. This conversation is a must-listen for anyone in professional services, emphasizing the moral obligation to guide clients towards beneficial decisions assertively.

Check out our new website www.TheElderLawCoach.com.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. Specialized experience, Whether you're an established attorney looking to refine your expertise or an emerging lawyer seeking a successful foray into elder law, this is your masterclass. Now let's get started with the luminary in the field. Here's Todd Whatley.

Speaker 2:

That's right. This is the Elder Law Coach and thank you so much for joining us, and I guess I should start out with a huge apology for being a little slow in getting these out. It has been crazy. Just this first half of 2024 has just been a crazy year. Got a lot of things going on and we're going to talk about some of those today, but just I apologize for being so slow, but please subscribe so that when one does go up you'll be notified, and my hope is to do this more because mainly Tricia, my marketing person, is on my case to do these more. So today I am here with a guest I think you've heard from, ian Weiner before. He is the certified financial planner that works in my office with my clients and we're going to talk today. Well, first, hey, william, hey, ian William.

Speaker 3:

I've been called worse. Hey, Ian, how are you doing? I'm good. Todd, this is fun. Look, it has been crazy, but you know what? There's a lot of good reasons for that and there's a lot of good stuff that are coming to the folks that listen to your podcast. So there's good reasons for this, so stay tuned.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there is. So, yes, thank you so much for joining us. I think you've probably heard him before, but today I want to jump right into the issue of kind of we've put out the crystal ball and our crystal ball is based on what we're seeing Not in a crystal ball, obviously, but just seeing some trends and some things that are coming that, if you're doing just estate planning, planning, I think you particularly need to listen to this and realize there are some forces out there that you may be aware of. But we're going to make you very aware of it today, and this will be a two-part series. Today we're going to talk about the problem, what's coming up, what we're seeing as an issue, and then the next episode will be on how to solve it.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so, ian, you've done some meetings with me. I mean, you're here with me, very available, and a lot of times clients ask you to be in the meeting with us to deal with the financial things and what are some common things that you're seeing in my office, but also as a financial advisor, you're getting notifications about a new line of work and new thing that y'all could do, and it's kind of scary.

Speaker 3:

It is scary. So I am kind of an interesting advisor because I don't fit in any really traditional box anywhere. I have some folks that I would consider peers, but it's not like your Jones or your Merrill or your Schwab's or you know. There's really, in my view, there's like kind of three different types of advisors. There's the broker-dealer advisor, there's the you know, xyz mutual insurance advisor, and then there's this kind of hybrid which is in my space, is the RIA space, and typically these guys are fee-only and so their thing is they only get paid by billing the client directly to manage assets or do planning.

Speaker 2:

Fine, I'm a little bit in all of those worlds and when you say do planning, do you mean that, or do you mean selling products?

Speaker 3:

Well, the fee-only guys will say that they don't sell products, but really what they do is they aggregate assets. The product is the investment management typically Right.

Speaker 2:

They get paid by how much in assets they have under their management AIM.

Speaker 3:

They get paid by how much in assets they have under their management, aim. You know I get a little frustrated with it and I have. The reason I'm telling this is to say that I have friends and colleagues in each of these worlds and so I have interesting insight into what they're doing, and I'm in peer groups where we talk about this stuff, the things that they're doing, how folks are innovating in their practice and doing some of this stuff. The fee-only guys bug me a little bit because they pretend that they are better than everybody else. They're the knight in shining armor. They only get paid by their clients, but behind closed doors. What they're talking about is how do we get more revenue from our clients? How do we do stuff to increase our fees and it's fine. But just transparency is good all the way around, right?

Speaker 2:

Right and they get paid the more money they have. And we did our Facebook live show this morning and part of that was talking about as a true advisor, as a true person for the client. If they want to spend money on something, we're all for it. The AUM guy is like wait, hang on a second, you want to take this money and put it into.

Speaker 3:

Just defer Take your Social Security early. Just defer taking money out for RMDs, because as the account balance grows, so does their compensation.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Look, there are some clients that I serve this way because the model works for them, and that's fine, but what I see behind closed doors that other people don't see is they. In some cases, they flat out lie about being fee only when they're not. There's one very prominent guy who, due to some relationships I have in the insurance world, he's insurance licensed and sells insurance and says that he doesn't, and so that's one that's like ridiculous. But as one of the things that we're starting to see here is this big focus towards planning, and I think planning is really important and that's what we provide for our clients, and when I I want to frame it in the sense of you know, we really try to solve the big problems for clients. You know, saving 200 bucks a year on, you know, this auto insurance versus that auto insurance really isn't moving the needle for our clients. My clients don't get excited about that. I review that stuff for them to make sure we don't have gaps in coverage, but that's not a huge thing.

Speaker 3:

Now, if we can save a couple million dollars in estate taxes, that's an issue worth solving and that's an issue worth paying for, right. And so what a lot of advisors have begun to figure out is estate planning is a pretty important part of the lifecycle of a person, but also is part of the asset gathering and management journey, right, and so what I'm seeing is this is a long answer to a short question, but I think it's important to see these pieces come together. Question but I think it's important to see these pieces come together. We're seeing these tech-driven solutions to either simplify or automate template-based estate planning, and it is being pitched to advisors as an additional revenue stream for them and advisors that I know that are colleagues in some of these worlds. This is how they're doing it and personally it makes me uncomfortable.

Speaker 2:

They are creating trust in powers of attorney. Estate planning documents.

Speaker 3:

The way that they would say it is. The client is filling out the forms and a template is being created that always works out perfectly.

Speaker 2:

There's no problems with that, right. I want three trustees at the same time.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, no big deal, but it's cheaper, right? Yeah, it's cheaper, and so this is where this is kind of the rub, right. And so, on one hand, there's always going to be that client who is going to find the absolute cheapest option and doesn't care about the consequences. We don't work for those clients.

Speaker 2:

No, we don't, that's fine. Just practice tip real quick. If someone calls your secretary number one, don't let your secretary give out prices. That's a huge issue. And if someone demands to know the price before they come see, you, send them down the road. It's okay. You don't want to work with them. If you're demanding to know what the price is, I don't know what the price is because it depends on what you need. The price is going to be quoted once we know what you need. And if a client is demanding a price, send them down the road.

Speaker 3:

They're not worth it. A good language pattern, I mean some people, you know they're, they're trying to shop around and I and I and I appreciate that a good language pattern for that is look, if we don't, if we give a prescription without diagnosis, that's malpractice. You wouldn't want your doctor to do that. We're not going to do that either, and so we have. This is why there's the process and so it's. There's always going to be that segment of the market, right, the bottom 25%, the people that are going to scrimp and save every penny. What we say on the radio show is save a buck, lose a fortune.

Speaker 3:

Those people I called a client, one of Todd's clients who I sat in on the meeting. They were doing beneficiary designations, powers of attorney. It was a pretty straightforward plan for them. We started talking. I said, hey, what's the plan to pay for long-term care if that's an issue? What's the plan to pay for this, that and the other? And come to find out the gentleman. He self-manages about $5 million, and the number is not the most important part. The fact that he spends $60,000 a year and expects to for the rest of his life creates an interesting challenge. And so we talked through his plan and his strategy a little bit. He's a DIY guy, you know, and his wife was rolling her eyes the whole time, you know. This is a guy who's self-important and thinks he knows stuff, and I was.

Speaker 3:

I was asking him some questions that he should have known the answer to. Didn't know the answer to, sure, because I wanted him to be thoughtful about it and we ended up not working together in any bigger capacity. But he called into the office and was asking questions about a will and so I said I got this, I'll take this one. So I called him and I said look, and I'm going to call him Jim. I said Jim, and I answered some of his basic questions and the plan that Todd's team put together made sense generally enough for them. He wasn't going to pay for a trust. He probably should have one, but he wasn't going to pay for one. So fine.

Speaker 3:

And I said, jim, I need you to understand and I need you to hear this clearly If you don't hire someone to help you, it's going to cost you millions of dollars. You are going to make the mistakes that this is a basic issue that you haven't figured out, the complex issues that I try to talk to you about that. You have no clue A what they are and B how they work is going to cost you millions of dollars. What was his response? He stuttered a little bit and he didn't like it, you know.

Speaker 3:

But this is that kind of client. We can't help them, but we have to tell them clearly that they need to get help. And so you're not going to get all of those right, but there are clients who are good, honest, hardworking people that want help and want advice. Those are the kind of people that that you want to help, and right now they're being, they're being offered solutions to their problems that feel like a good fit, that feel like that's going to save them a little bit of money, feel like it's more efficient. And so you know, as attorneys, you've got to face not only just explaining why what you do is important, but why the other solution is not going to work. And so, from a marketing perspective, we need to get the word out about this a little bit.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think a lot of attorneys don't see themselves as salesmen.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

They're professionals, so I'm a professional. I have to, just but you do. And there's a great book by Daniel Pink, Um uh to sell is to to live or something I mean. It's. It's about selling. Everyone is a salesperson Parents trying to get their kids to eat their vegetables. They're salesmen. Okay, trying to get your kid to go take a nap. You're selling the idea of taking a nap Somebody's going to win. We are all salesmen.

Speaker 3:

Best idea wins and we communicate it the best.

Speaker 2:

And Ian, you know, as he's a friend, he's financial advisor but he's kind of like my, my office consultant and he. He pulled me aside one time. He said, todd, you're not selling hard enough. And I was like, wait a second, I don't. He said these people need what you're offering and your approach to that is very well OK, whatever. He said no, if you know someone's drowning, it's well okay, whatever. He said no, if you know someone's drowning, it's like here, take this life raft. Okay, take this ring and save your life. You're going to be very forceful if they're like oh no, I don't think I need it. Yes, you do need this, you're dying.

Speaker 2:

You're going to make every effort to get them to take the life raft. And so you need to start thinking, like I have to say look, I know these people need this and I've got to be a little more forceful, a little more. And I always precede this with I know this sounds self-serving, but you need to hire me to do this for you because there are so many issues here, me to do this for you because there are so many issues here and I've really started pushing more to say you know, yes, you want to save money, yes, you can get this cheaper elsewhere, but I'm telling you this is what you need to do. And I was real nervous about bringing in the financial component, because I knew these people needed help. And I was real nervous because of the ethics rules about dual business and things like that.

Speaker 2:

But pretty much without fail, when I said, look, your finances are a mess, can I bring Ian in and help you? And yes, I'm going to make some money from you hiring him as a financial advisor, but I think he can help you. And they're like absolutely, bring him in. I would love to talk to him because we're bringing to their attention what is lacking. And for those people that are like you've got to be more forceful, and I think the topic of this show today is there's a lot of do-it-yourself things out there.

Speaker 1:

There's.

Speaker 2:

Google, there's ChatGPT, there are Dave Ramsey, there's Susie Orman, and people are inundated with hey, do your trust? Do it now, where they fill out the stuff and they make horrible decisions. And I think people do that with a lot of trepidation and they would love to hear from you as a professional to say, hey, let me explain this to you. And as they're there and you see a problem, you've got to sell it. You've got to be more aggressive.

Speaker 3:

Well, this is so good and we didn't think that we were going down this road, but I think it's important that we talk about it. You know, and for a long time I have been wrongly trying to not sell as well. You know, like I am a good salesperson transparently I am. And you know, through working together more, I've really started to push both of us and go look to me. It's actually an ethical issue and hang with me here, this is really challenging, you know, but at least in our area, I fully believe that if someone goes to another attorney, odds are they're not going to get treated the right way in our area. I mean, statistically, I think that's the case and you know, even if it's another certified elder law attorney may or may not get the level of service that we're providing. Thanks, but I really want to frame it in that way. And in my world for financial planning, I know one good financial planner in this area and he doesn't work with clients locally and they're on every corner, yeah, I mean, there are advisors everywhere up here.

Speaker 3:

It's something where I'm going to say this very strongly, but I'm going to challenge you to try to let this resonate with you, if you're not careful and you don't help those folks, someone else will try to and they may end up getting screwed.

Speaker 3:

That's really the concern. That's what I said to Todd. I was like Todd if they go somewhere else, they're going to get screwed, most likely. And we can't help everyone. We can't fix every problem, but if we don't do our best to educate them and help the ones that we can, that's harder on me. And look, you got to run your practice. You got to be profitable. There's nothing wrong with being profitable. That's not unethical. In fact, if you are profitable and you run a good business, you can help more people.

Speaker 2:

So if you're not profitable, you go out of business and you're helping no one, so you've got to make a profit. I don't think anyone disagrees with that and it's okay, right, yeah, it's okay.

Speaker 3:

But I really want you know and part of it is I do believe, that what Daniel Pink says is true that everything is sales all the time, whether you realize it or not. Daniel Pink says is true that everything is sales all the time, whether you realize it or not. And you have to come to the, and that's intense. But I think it's a good thing if you think about it the right way, because that gives you an opportunity to frame it in your mind the right way. I mean, if you're right, it's your obligation to gently convince the client that you're right and it's in their best interest to do that.

Speaker 2:

So a phrase that I use and this sounds so arrogant, but clients like it, you know it turns a few off, that's fine, go, go, do your stuff. But the phrase that I use when they're like well, you know, I just don't know if this is a fair price or whatever. I'm like you can find it cheaper. Okay, I charge more than most people because I do more than most people. And then that requires you to, number one, be better. Okay, get software that does this very well, be good at the software. Make sure that the statement you say, when you say you're going to pay more with me because you get better stuff, that needs to be the truth and it forces you to continue your education, to maybe do coaching, to get your skill level up to a point where you can charge more.

Speaker 2:

I tell people all the time you can find it cheaper. The guy down the street who does divorces and criminal, he'll do a trust for you, I'm pretty sure. And it'll be cheap. Okay, it'll be probably a third of my price, but it's terrible. Okay, it's based on a form that he did back in the early 2000s or 90s or God forbid, the 80s, the late 20th century, yeah, and it's not up to date, it doesn't have the powers. He doesn't understand how to protect the assets for the heirs. I mean, there's a lot of things there and that forces you to understand your documents and to understand and to be better than the guy down the street. And that's what some people are looking for. And I do charge a premium and very few people tell me no.

Speaker 3:

You know people by and large, this is hard. Someone's going to email me. By and large, people need to be told what to do, absolutely, and they want to be told what to do. I mean, really that's what they want, you know, and a lot of that does come down to confidence. Now, don't practice in an area where you're not competent, and so that's another conversation, right? But, um, you know, if you don't believe that you provide the best services in your area for the client, my encouragement to you is change that and provide those you know.

Speaker 2:

I can help you with that, yeah.

Speaker 3:

And and that's. That's kind of the. But then, when you are having that conversation with someone, another little language pattern that I like is if someone goes boy, this, this is really expensive. This, this person down the road will do it cheaper, this. It's going to sound kind of tough, but I'm going to tell you, try it, Say, and why do you think that is? And just be quiet and let them sweat a little bit, and nine times out of ten what they're going to say is well, it's probably this or that, and just shut up, Don't talk.

Speaker 2:

Let them process that, yep.

Speaker 3:

Because if you really are providing better service, you're leading them along the path to figure that out, and that's how you do it. I mean, they're challenging you. It's fair to challenge them back, but that one works quite a bit. And let them tell the story. Why do you think that is? That's a good question.

Speaker 3:

And if you are an attorney, they're going to work their way out. They're going to work that out. If you are an attorney, they're going to work their way out, they're going to work that out. And so you know, we got to talking a little bit about some of this stuff, about, you know, these DIY options and these sort of advisor led options. But I don't want to kind of finish on that, because this is going to be an area where the gap is going to continue to close. This is going to be an area where the gap is going to continue to close. I think you know the group of people that are willing to accept templates and DIY stuff, and you know AI generated stuff is going to grow larger and larger and larger it is, and so that can be an opportunity to differentiate or that could crush you, and you've got to decide which one it's going to be really.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so join us next time where we're going to talk about some of the things we've done in my practice, that is, getting those people. I mean, I have drastically increased over the last six months. I have drastically increased my number of wealthy clients and the number of trusts that I have done and you know I don't sell trust. I actually discourage people from getting trust because a lot of people don't need them. But those who do need it and can pay for it and if you charge appropriately you can make substantial money I've had in the last six months. I've had three or four of my best months ever and it's because I've started seeing these folks charging more and the things I've done in my office, I think, appeal to people and are getting them in and they're happy and they're sticking with us and doing more and more work.

Speaker 3:

Well, you're also and I think this is fair to say you're also solving bigger problems for them. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's probably even stuff that we've missed just in the shuffle here, because Todd's process is built to be extremely efficient and we're working to add some other lanes here and make it more of a even better of a concierge process. But you know, we're really solving problems that people hadn't thought about and are going to be problems, and I think, if you can embrace that and go okay, if you believe that it's true that people that have the money to pay to solve problems will pay to solve those problems, and might as well be you, Might as well be you and figure out what the biggest ones are and how to solve them.

Speaker 2:

Okay, join us next time and we'll delve into that.

Speaker 1:

It's hard to answer that question.

Speaker 2:

All right, thank you all very much. Please like and subscribe and if you have questions, please email me, todd at the elderlawcoachcom, and also join us in August Okay, august of 2024. We will be doing a big, huge push and join us then email us. I'm Todd at the elder law coachcom. Thanks, bye.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for joining this episode of the elder law coach podcast. For those eager to take their elder law practice to new heights and are interested in Todd's acclaimed coaching program, visit wwwtheelderlawcoachcom. With Todd Whatley by your side, the journey to becoming an elder law authority has never been more achievable. Until next time, keep learning, keep growing and stay passionate about elder law.