Unlock the secrets of luxury watch photography with photographers and fellow RIT alumnus, Chris Coe and Adam Antalek of Coe Group.
We cover the demanding brand expectations of different brands, the balance of in-camera excellence versus post-production finesse, and the inventive techniques that ensure every shot conveys the luxury and craftsmanship distinctive to these miniature masterpieces.
Watches are more than mere timekeepers; they're mementos with stories to tell, linking generations and encapsulating emotions. We explore the practicalities too—navigating the costly realm of photography equipment, mastering lighting to mirror the sun's natural dance, and directing models to evoke that authentic bond with the watches they wear. It's not just about the gear or the glamour; it's about the human connection and the legacy we capture through each click of the shutter.
We also talk about our own personal watch collections, and share which watches are our "grails".
More about Coe Group:
coegroup.nyc
More about Chris:
https://www.instagram.com/chrisc0e/
https://www.chriscoephoto.com/
info@chriscoephoto.com
More about Adam:
https://www.instagram.com/aantalek/
https://www.adamantalek.com/
adam@adamantalek.com
Learn more about our sponsor NIVODA: https://nivoda.com/intheloupe
Send feedback or learn more about the podcast: punchmark.com/loupe
Learn about Punchmark's website platform: punchmark.com
Unlock the secrets of luxury watch photography with photographers and fellow RIT alumnus, Chris Coe and Adam Antalek of Coe Group.
We cover the demanding brand expectations of different brands, the balance of in-camera excellence versus post-production finesse, and the inventive techniques that ensure every shot conveys the luxury and craftsmanship distinctive to these miniature masterpieces.
Watches are more than mere timekeepers; they're mementos with stories to tell, linking generations and encapsulating emotions. We explore the practicalities too—navigating the costly realm of photography equipment, mastering lighting to mirror the sun's natural dance, and directing models to evoke that authentic bond with the watches they wear. It's not just about the gear or the glamour; it's about the human connection and the legacy we capture through each click of the shutter.
We also talk about our own personal watch collections, and share which watches are our "grails".
More about Coe Group:
coegroup.nyc
More about Chris:
https://www.instagram.com/chrisc0e/
https://www.chriscoephoto.com/
info@chriscoephoto.com
More about Adam:
https://www.instagram.com/aantalek/
https://www.adamantalek.com/
adam@adamantalek.com
Learn more about our sponsor NIVODA: https://nivoda.com/intheloupe
Send feedback or learn more about the podcast: punchmark.com/loupe
Learn about Punchmark's website platform: punchmark.com
Welcome back everybody to In the Loop. What is up everybody? My name is Michael Burpo. Thanks again for listening to In the Loop.
Speaker 1:This week, we're joined by two of my former classmates from RIT, chris Coe and Adam Antelek, and they are members of CoGroup and they photograph a lot in the watch and luxury industries and we're talking all about, first of all, how they made their break into the space and also what goes into luxury watch photography. So we talk about some of the tricks of the trade and how they style their watches to make sure that they look beautiful, some of the style guide specifics that they're required to jump through in order to be able to work with some of these incredible brands, and then, towards the end, we actually talk about our favorite watches and we get pretty deep and we talk about what our dream watches are, as well as which ones we already have. It's so fun getting a chance to speak with them.
Speaker 1:I knew from pretty early on that these guys were going to be destined for some really incredible work, and knowing that they work together is really cool, because at the time I only knew them just a little bit in college and had a chance to work with them on a few different projects and even then I just knew man, these guys are so talented. No matter what they do, they're going to be absolutely incredible. So it's cool to get a chance to reconnect with them after all these years and also hear about what they've been up to and what they plan next. It's a really fun talk. I hope you enjoy it. If this is your first time listening to In the Loop, which I'm assuming a lot of you are going to be, feel free to drop a subscription. We do episodes every Tuesday all about the jewelry industry, and I hope you enjoy my conversation with these two.
Speaker 2:Thanks, this episode is brought to you by Punchmark, the jewelry industry's favorite website platform and digital growth agency. Our mission reaches way beyond technology. With decades of experience and long-lasting industry relationships, punchmark enables jewelry businesses to flourish in any marketplace. We consider our clients our friends, as many of them have been friends way before becoming clients. Punchmark's own success comes from the fact that we have a much deeper need and obligation to help our friends succeed. Whether you're looking for better e-commerce performance, business growth or campaigns that drive traffic and sales, punchmark's website and marketing services were made just for you. It's never too late to transform your business and stitch together your digital and physical worlds in a way that achieves tremendous growth and results. Schedule a guided demo today at punchmarkcom. Slash go.
Speaker 1:And now back to the show. Welcome back everybody. I'm so excited to be speaking with Adam Antolek and Chris Ko, two of my former like I guess classmates. We went to RIT together. How are you guys doing today?
Speaker 3:Doing good. Doing good man. Things are great, man. Thanks for having us on the show.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, like I said, I went to the RIT school design and you guys were photography students and we actually collaborated a couple of times on a few different projects, one of which was this magazine called Ellipse. It won a whole bunch of awards for the school. Chris was the director of photography at the time and I think that Adam was working with me on copy. That's right, pretty crazy to see where we are now, and that's wild.
Speaker 3:That's a tremendous thing. You know, ellipse was a lot of fun. I remember working with Garrett Chase too on the art direction there, and I still have it proudly on my bookshelf back here. It was a fantastic collaborative project and I think that was a lot of the opportunities we had at RIT. Adam and I both worked together in the advertising photography program on the Ad Project, which was this big opportunity to find a couple of classmates and put together a mock advertising photography campaign, and I think that's where Adam and I really started our friendship and our collaboration together. And then it wasn't until maybe four years after graduating that we circled the wagons and said wait a second, we worked really well together. How's your business going, how's my business going? And we worked from there.
Speaker 1:Man, that's so cool. And Adam, so I guess are you based out of New York City as well, because, chris, I think that you're in the city.
Speaker 4:Chris is in Brooklyn. I'm still in Rochester, that's right.
Speaker 1:In Rochester. Oh my gosh, that's so cool. I guess you guys came together and formed CoGroup.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, that's right. So CoGroup is a lightweight video production company out of New York City and Rochester. Secretly, that's our little behind the scenes man behind the curtain, and that came from just many years of working together with Adam and I. You know I have had full time positions in New York before. I've also been maintaining a healthy balance of freelance clients. Throughout that entire time, and whenever I had an opportunity to work on a video project, I would call Adam, and Adam and I, I think, have a great way of communicating together. He has a great way of understanding my brain as I do his, and it was about a year, maybe a year and two months ago now, that we really joined forces and started pouring gas onto the fire for video production, whether that's for our clients within the watch and jewelry industry or more documentary-style interviews for non-profits, it runs the gamut, but we go wherever they need us. We try to be a bit of a Swiss Army knife.
Speaker 4:And I think not to downplay it at all, but I think the code group kind of formed out of necessity because the watch industry is so niche and Chrisco is such a nice guy that everyone loves him. And they're like we like your work too. How about you make a bunch of stuff for us? And then it's like I can't do this all on my own. There's too many things.
Speaker 3:It's really well said. I'm very fortunate to have the clients behind me and behind Adam and I that we do. It did get to a point about a year and a half ago where I said if even one more person calls this number, if one more person sends an email, we're going to have an opportunity to scale. That's where Adam and I started working together, and Adam manages all of the post-production for CoGroup and beyond that too, when we have larger production shoots, we're able to get together as recently as an on-location shoot in Mexico, and those are the real fun ones, because, though we log on to Slack at nine in the morning and we have our little catch-up and see our marching orders for the day when we can actually rock it, Adam can come in and DP and I can direct you know, a real commercial, and we can do that together. It's never a bad thing.
Speaker 1:Nice. So what kind of people are hiring you guys or bringing you on? Is it typically like smaller businesses and trying to punch above their weight class? Is it typically like smaller businesses and trying to punch above their weight class, or is it typically like larger groups and corporations that are trying to yeah, like you know, bring something larger to market, like an entire you know campaign?
Speaker 3:So the majority of our clients are within the luxury sector, as that relates to, you know, consumer goods, watches, jewelry and things like this and it's typically you's typically individuals within our networks who are now working at companies who bring us into the fold.
Speaker 3:Sometimes that's a referral from one creative director to a next. Maybe it's someone from a public relations firm who's since moved up a rung at Richemont to work and represent another historic and prestige Swiss watch manufacturer, and in those opportunities I think they look through their Rolodex of who do we know in New York who is dependable and able to put together a suite of both photography and video assets that check all the boxes that we need here, because, as Adam said, it's an incredibly niche industry and I think, more than anything than the skill set that we've developed within the verticals that we work in, we also have a great passion in the work that we do. Adam and I are both watch collectors. We're both enthusiasts in the jewelry space too, and when it comes to design and architecture consumer goods, I'm the guy that walks into a fancy apartment and freaks out over the kind of shelves that they're installing there, you know. So I think that itself leads to conversations at, you know, networking events and opportunities. That just starts to bring work into that funnel for us.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think a lot of it is just the networking and fostering, you know, relationships and keeping up on those two, and that's not necessarily just staying within the watch industry itself. It's like you go to these social events that that you'd be going to anyways, and then all the other people from the watch community are there and then turns out this guy that you just had you know 15 cocktails with I mean I won't speak for you, chris, but he's, you know, he runs another publication and you mentioned you do photo video, and he's like, oh, you know, we've been meaning to do that for two years. We just haven't had the. And it's just like it's more of the, the personal relationships that I feel like foster or turn into work, than it is. You know, people just kind of cold calling us because they need content.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 1:That's the number one thing I've seen about, especially the jewelry industry, but just luxury in general, because I think when you're dealing with these products that are a little bit more expensive and are kind of require a certain amount of understanding and respect, I find that people actually enjoy working with people that they enjoy talking with, and I always laugh whenever we go to these shows.
Speaker 1:People are okay with talking about business over cocktails, and so you lead in, you start talking about whatever the location, it doesn't matter, and then when you start talking about business, people are so much more willing to kind of connect on that basis because they realize, oh, this person is a nice person or this person understands the kind of the game and what's going on. And being able to connect with people that have that passion, like you said, having that passion for the space, is definitely something we look for. When it comes to who we work with, who we hire, it's all about. If we had the choice, I would definitely go with someone who has a fondness or an understanding for luxury goods, as opposed to someone who's indifferent.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think there's two sides to that as well, and I think there's two sides to that as well is is the first side being just the knowledge of the industry, specifically to watches. There's cause I'm somewhat new into watch collecting. I think I kind of came to watch collecting, definitely via Chris, but via work, and I've been a huge collector of guitars, toys, other stuff for years, so it was, you know, just natural to fall in.
Speaker 4:But the learning curve of the terminology, the amount of different um manufacturers, different movements, different materials, and it takes a long time to learn yeah, it takes a long time to learn and also also being able to process not only what those mean, but why they're important.
Speaker 3:And something that I'll add there Adam too is.
Speaker 3:Mike was talking about it.
Speaker 3:It's important to be able to be comfortable with someone that you're going to grab a couple of drinks with or something like that.
Speaker 3:But whether it's a glass of wine or a cup of coffee in the morning, I think the truth of the matter is that the industry is large enough that you don't need to work with jerks, and especially when we're working on commercial jobs, if we're working on a four or five day shoot, folks are going to be staying at the same hotel, we're grabbing company breakfast together, we're spending time together, so an interest in understanding the space is always helpful. But I think too, for our production company, it's about making sure that we have an environment that people feel safe and open in but also can enjoy and have a good time, Because we're fortunate enough to know that we can get the job done and we can work efficiently at that. But it's also understanding that there's no such thing as a watch emergency, so we can still make sure that we enjoy the work that we do and relish in the fact that we get to do what we do.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting. No such thing as a watch emergency. I'm going to steal that for sure. I guess that kind of ties into what I wanted to discuss a little bit more in depth. We have some listeners that are going to be tuning in, that are very deep into the watch game, just being retail jewelers and, again, not 100% sure how aware you guys are of a lot of like the retailer kind of aspects of things. But Rolex is very picky about who gets to carry their jewelry. You have to be certified, you have to hit a whole bunch of these very specific specs. I'm sure working with you guys in like a physical capacity is probably just as stringent of a process. Can you guys talk me through maybe, chris, you can just leave me off because you seem to be the person who came to watches first what are some of like the process and details of actually photographing and working in the world of luxury watches?
Speaker 3:It's a complicated one. It's a game of reflections more than anything. A lot of the times we're working with very high polished surfaces or cases that have a lot of different angles, movements that have different interior angles, and beyond that too, we're working with small machines that are on a wrist. You take something from Patek Philippe or Lange Söhne and we might be looking at a 36 or a 39 millimeter watch that has a movement on the backside of the case that feels like you're plunging into another world, and to be able to capture that definitely presents a lot of challenges. So working with constant light whenever we can really really helps us out in terms of just the nuts and bolts of production, so that we can actually light in real time and get an idea of what we're working on. I think for our work, what's important is making sure that we also bring in shadow when we need to, because shadow creates shape and contrast.
Speaker 3:Without it, I think a lot of current day watch photography and sort of catalog imagery can look like just that very idealized and glamorous almost rendered images, and there's a space for that.
Speaker 3:It's important to have those images as they exist online, in catalogs and in printed collateral, even for retail jewelers and things like that. You think when you walk into a Rolex store, if you see an ad on the side of the building, it's going to be a perfect watch, there's not going to be a speck of dust, there's not going to be a single reflection out of place, and it is going to be checking all of the boxes of the brand guidelines of Rolex SA. But when it comes to artwork too, a lot of our opportunities are to tell stories for our clients, for these watches, and so that's bringing in more realistic approaches to lighting, so we have an understanding of how these watches really look in real life. What is it like when the protagonist takes one of these watches out on a motorcycle in the middle of a desert, something like that? Right, so in those spaces they might not be perfectly controlled, but we certainly bend that to our advantage, using shape and shadow to highlight what's really important about the story we're trying to tell.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, adam, I guess that kind of brings it in. Is so Chris mentions not a single speck of dust when it comes to post-production. Can't you just clone, stamp that bad boy out, or can't you just, you know, brush it out, or whatever term you want to call it? I guess I'm always curious about how much of the perfection of these shoots is actually happening in camera versus in post, because I guess it doesn't really matter to the end consumer, but I'm sure it matters a lot to these companies.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know it depends on a few things. The job budget determines our time, and two is the watch we have new? It's not always new, you know. You can't always get every speck of dust out of the inside of the case. You can't always get rid of all the scratches, Cause a lot, a lot of our clients are.
Speaker 4:They run blogs, they're doing social content as well, and when they're doing watch reviews it's either something that they own or something that a company sent them. So they're rarely going to be perfect and in stills we're able to retouch dust out really easy. It's like click, click, click, boom, boom, boom, you're good, Stuff's shiny again, but in video. But in video you can, but it takes significantly longer. So that's where it kind of goes down to what's the job. So if it's something that's going to social, we clean it up as much as we can. Get a nice microfiber on there Hopefully you don't sneeze near it and it'll be clean enough. It'll be just fine for what it is. But if it's like an advertisement or something, then there's definitely going to be more time and care taken to making sure the watch is nice and pretty and perfect in camera and generally we'll have a better looking watch to start with.
Speaker 3:Exactly. We just had the opportunity to work with our friends at Worn and Wound on a commercial for Bulova with their Accutron electrostatic watch, and this thing is fantastic. It's like a science project on the wrist that only a handful of people in the world can even assemble and for that that's a proper ad. We had a great budget to work with. We had a great team together to work on it and those watch shots are at an angle with a shallow depth of field, with four lights set up on a turntable, and those are opportunities where, if I can control the environment there as best I can to get the dust and scratches and reflections off and exactly where we would like them. That saves a world of hurt for my friend Adam here.
Speaker 3:Because, like you said, retouching four pieces of dust out of a single photo. That's not too bad. I can jump in. I can take care of that myself. But if we're working at 60 frames in a second, we're starting to work a little bit later into the evenings to get that done.
Speaker 4:And the light's changing on stuff and the angle's changing so that gets harder and the angle's changing, so that gets harder and that's a good point too, Chris is the environment you're working in, because we're working with such small items that a little bit of dust floating in the air, like. If you look around any of our rooms, you'll probably see a dust particle floating somewhere, and just being conscious of that, making sure you're not putting fans towards your products and stuff, it can make a huge difference. I never really realized that making sure you're not putting fans towards your products and stuff can make a huge difference.
Speaker 3:I never really realized that. Yeah, you know, adam, I'm reminded of the commercial that we put together at the end of last summer out in California in the desert, which was quite literally, you know, okay, well, how are we going to photograph this watch on a motorcycle at 60 miles an hour and make that look reasonably good? That was a great challenge. Yeah, talk about dust.
Speaker 4:That's a good point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we all took an extra shower that day.
Speaker 1:Awesome guys. Hey, we're going to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor. Stay with us. This episode is brought to you in part by Novota. Strong margins and sales are key to running a successful jewelry business, but with cash tied up in stock and high diamond prices from limited suppliers, it can be difficult to gain an advantage over your competition. Over 1.6 million natural and lab-grown diamonds, melee and gemstones at the best prices. Novota's online marketplace levels the playing field, allowing smaller or growing jewelers to compete with the giants. And with Novota's team of experts handling everything from QC to invoicing and shipping, you'll have more time to focus on your customers and growing your business. But Novota doesn't only provide a place to source diamonds they help you sell them too. And whether you operate online or run a brick and mortar store, with Novota's powerful retail tools you can showcase hundreds of thousands of diamonds to your customers via feeds on your website or the Novota showroom customer facing platform to present them with the perfect diamond at their very first consultation. You'll never have to turn a customer away again when you always have exactly what they're looking for. If today is the day you decide to take your jewelry business to the next level, then book a demo at nivodacom.
Speaker 1:Slash in the loop, that's N-I-V-O-D-A dot com. Slash I-N-T-H-E, l-o-u-p-e. Thanks, and now back to the show. And we're back. So when you guys are shooting these things, um, I've seen a big fan of mkbhd. I'm sure you guys have heard of him. Um, he does a tech, I guess tech videos breaking down technology, so unboxings and things like that. And one thing that he uses are these kind of like robotic dolly arms that allow the same sweeping style shots and sweeping movements and things like that. Could you maybe pull back, I guess? Pull back the curtain a little bit on, for example, what cameras you guys are shooting on any outside, maybe tricks that you guys use, like those robotic arms, what goes into an actual kind?
Speaker 3:of shot. So recently we've been working within the Sony camera systems and that's been working well. When we're working with crews that might only be four to eight people, we still want to have a lightweight footprint. Working with something like an FX6 or an FX9 gives us a great quality image and an opportunity for really nice glass, without being a sort of overwhelming package and then making sure that we've got proper macro lenses there too. You know, for run and gun editorial photography or you know, quick shoots where we need to. Just maybe it's a press appointment, we've got 12 minutes with Grand Seiko and we need to get the shots that we need, and then we're out of there for another month. No way.
Speaker 1:Really it has happened.
Speaker 2:It has happened.
Speaker 3:For those opportunities. A Sigma 105 macro lens and a good number of cards and flags really work well for us in those situations. But when we're more in a studio environment, we're typically working with constant lights, apertures and forzas, working with different turntable systems like one offered by Manfrotto In terms of robotic arms and things like that. We haven't brought that into our production at this point. I think the folks over at the Garage in Brooklyn run by Steve Giral and his great people over there they've got a fantastic handle. I feel like they're the pioneers on that sort of motion tracking technology like you talked about with MKBHD, although I will tell you, if we find the budget to bring in one of those and then an operator with an Xbox controller, we'll be the first company to say yes, that's kind of what I was going to ask about, and we'll get to video in just a moment.
Speaker 1:I don't think that I don't even have an understanding of it, but I definitely don't think a lot of our listeners will understand just what the investment that goes into photography actually is. Because one thing I learned about one of the best parts about where we went to school, RIT one of the best parts about the photo system there was actually what did you guys call it? The cage.
Speaker 2:Was that one also called the garage, the cage?
Speaker 1:The cage. That's right. And the cage has millions and millions and millions of dollars worth of photography equipment there and studio systems and all sorts of goodies that are essentially free to be checked out and used. And what a lot of people don't realize is actually a lot of your capabilities on what you can photograph and what you can capture is going to be limited by a $30,000 lens. That it's like am I going to invest in this just for this one shot? It's like, well, it's an investment. That's like what I don't think a lot of people are really going to understand from this, where like, oh, yeah, start a, start a photo thing, and like you know, you can just have a camera and a couple lenses and it's like, yeah, but think about the upfront cost, and I'm sure that there's a ton that goes into it that there is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I can, I can touch on that. Um, yeah, so that that all just depends again, depends on the project, like we're able to scale. So there's a lot of upfront costs. Like we, you know, we have to manage our computer systems, we have to run our server, we have to have, you know, the cameras that we own and the glass that we own so we can run out and shoot those press appointments, for example. But then also, when we have larger scale ads, we will scale our cameras and our lenses and our production equipment, which could be director's monitors or drones or building a whole video village to that job.
Speaker 4:So Chris and I both own a decent amount of Sony glass lenses that are our go-to. They're pretty great, they're bulletproof, we love them. But sometimes we get the opportunity to scale up that production value and go to cine lenses, which we've been using the Canon CNEs, which are absolutely gorgeous cine lenses. Yeah, somewhat affordable, but we don't buy those, we rent them when we need. Because it's just finding that balance of okay, if I buy this cine lens say it's $5,000, I'm going to need six others to cover my whole focal spectrum and that just isn't necessarily fiscally responsible for most responsible for most production companies our size, so we're able to rent them out, and there's tons of companies that can rent them out. You can go local in New York. That list is ages long. We'll rent from Lenz Rentals a lot, who are phenomenal, and yeah, so you don't have to own everything, but with that said, there is quite a large overhead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that there is, especially too, in just keeping up with the Joneses here.
Speaker 3:We are lucky enough that we don't need to buy every camera system that comes out, but as new releases come around from the manufacturers that we follow, we do take a moment, as we do with new watch releases too, where Adam and I talk to each other and we say do we need this thing?
Speaker 3:And then from there it's really just a cost-benefit analysis. We're fortunate enough that here in New York we have a couple of camera systems built out, so even if we have to be running two sets simultaneously or a shoot that's in two locations, I can provide a kit to another camera operator for our team while I take, maybe, our A kit to another space. So we have that built out, but that's been the product of year over year continuous investment and routine maintenance in this Especially too, because these items do get wear and tear on them. It was the end of last year that I was sending in a couple of my macro lenses to be repaired, and it was also last year that we got our server up and running too to make sure that when we put together a shoot, that's two terabytes of data that we have a way of getting it to someone, as opposed to just handing it over to the Pony Express and waiting for them to get upstate.
Speaker 1:Wow, interesting. I didn't even think about that. I guess that's the kind of stuff I find to be, for lack of a better word, magical is I find the magic that goes into these shoots and it's pretty cool. Getting a chance to speak with Adam was actually the first full photography shot system that I was able to be a part of. Do you remember what it was, adam?
Speaker 4:Oh really, Was it the cookbook, Not the cookbook? No, that too. Or was it? It was cryotherapy.
Speaker 1:Oh really Was it the cookbook, not the cookbook. No, that too, or was it? It was cryotherapy oh yeah, and we photographed an entire thing, and what I never realized is, first of all, tons of equipment, but second of all, there's a lot of these little I don't want to call them tricks, because that kind of cheapens them.
Speaker 5:No tricks is fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, these tricks, though, that photographers all seem to have in their, their wheelhouse or their kit, and I'm always interested in hearing a little bit more about them, and that's the kind of stuff, like you guys can tell me the names of every camera you have, and I will sit there and I will nod along but these tricks are really cool, Like I've always wondered, for example, like here's one is when people photograph beverages.
Speaker 1:A lot of the times the beverage is actually not the beverage that you think it is Like, for example, if you're, if it's iced tea, a lot of the times it's, for example, motor oil, because it just gives a much more glossy look. I mean, the people aren't drinking it, they're usually pushing their lips together or you know something similar. Are there any of those kind of I don't want to call them tricks, any of those touches that you guys are able to employ when it comes to shooting, for example, watches? Like the one that jumps to my mind is like have you ever photographed, when you're shooting, the movement of a watch? Do you ever take the glass that I think they call it the crystal, the crystal out of a watch so that you don't get any reflection, or is that?
Speaker 3:overkill.
Speaker 3:So we always make sure that we've got a watch repair and watch maintenance kit with us in case we need to make those adjustments.
Speaker 3:We're not typically taking off the case back of a movement unless we potentially have a dead stock movement that's not going to be functioning, provided for an ad if we've got very specific shots, maybe a disassembly or something that we need to film.
Speaker 3:But when it comes to little tips and tricks, sometimes for me it's the really mundane arts and craft store supply pieces that aren't even part of something you'd find at a camera store, Even in just a small example here is we always keep a bit of sticky tack, like that rubber eraser that's a little bit stretchy and pliable, just to be able to get watches exactly where they need to be for our photos. A lot of the times if we're, you know, photographing a watch that has a bracelet here, if you're just to take that on a flat surface, it's going to feel you know a little bit less than it's not going to have the sort of wrap around the bracelet around the hand that you'd see maybe in an advertisement and just making sure that we've got the right sort of grip and prop and art supplies to round out that bracelet so it actually looks nice and full and catches the light in the way that we'd like to, and that's $4 to $8 at the Arts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what about you, adam? You got any tricks up your sleeve.
Speaker 4:I mean, I think post-production is a whole different story but I think on set like nothing really crazy magical, it's just how are you lighting stuff and just considering where you know what, what the motivation for your light is? Like, a lot of the times we're faking sun. Yeah, that's probably the biggest thing. Like you get a really really powerful, really point source light and just crank it, sometimes you'll, you'll move the light you know through the frame. So you get kind of like, if you're shooting through blinds, you get those blinds that are kind of moving over the watch or something, and just faking real-life light with artificial light is probably the biggest trick on set. But if we dive a little into post-production you can change almost anything you want. Your light's not going to change. What's on camera isn't necessarily going to change too much, but your entire story. You can make five different stories out of one interview, yeah.
Speaker 3:And something that I'll add there, adam too, is I was just going to bring up that approach to lighting. Kind of faking realism just brings me back to an adage from our professor at RIT, clay Packer McBride, who let us know that in a lot of instances one hard light very far away looks great, and that's been true for years. It's been a great look 40 years ago and it'll be a great look 40 years from now. And you wonder where that comes from. But look at the space we have. We have the sun, one hard light very far away and we can see some of the most beautiful qualities of light just from that. You know, with clouds coming in to change shape and shadow. And that's what we try to emulate with again, one hard source that we really crank to absolute maximum and then using flags and go bows and other opportunities to build some shape into that.
Speaker 1:You know I've always laughed every time I have ever been on a on a shoot. I'm always surprised by a couple of things, like the amount of duct tape that's in a shot that are behind to like prop up lights and things like that. Or maybe this is just because they were smaller scale shots, but the fact that if you look just on the outside of where the camera's pointing, it kind of looks very regular, for example, like if you have a seamless backdrop, it's going to just it just goes onto the ground and then like right on the outside of where you'd be pointing the camera, there's like foot marks and you know like shoes have stepped on it and stuff like that, and it's like, oh yeah, that's not where the magic happens.
Speaker 3:And you know that brings up an interesting opportunity too as we set up our interviews. Say, we're working on a story for a nonprofit organization. We had the opportunity to film an installation by Suchi Reddy last summer at the National Building Museum in Washington DC and that was a fantastic opportunity for us as a team. Adam and I had to put together with the folks around us I believe it was four on-location interviews in one day and each of those interviews was three cameras and the third camera.
Speaker 3:There is why I bring this up, because one of the sort of stylistic choices we can make, depending on the production, is to set up one of our interview cameras for our subject behind set. So it's not that perfectly composed 85 millimeter frame of their face that's just perfectly lit, with not, you know, any hair out of place. But it gives the viewer that sort of step back for a moment to remind you that it's not this necessarily perfect and idealized space, that you are working with a person within that physical environment. And I think that was really important for that work because it was installation-based, it was about the space, it was about interior architecture and that experience. So being able to start with that third interview angle that shows you that we've got all these lights and cords running everywhere, you've got a camera operator on the left and then walk the viewer into that medium and tight shot for the interview. I think helped build a lot of trust with the audience for that video and it really worked out in our benefit, ah I love that.
Speaker 1:That's a good example, and another one I always wonder about is so you guys are saying how you can control anything pretty much, and that's usually very true.
Speaker 1:When it comes to these watches, though, I guess one thing that's a constant is going to be the time, and a lot of the times, like you've already mentioned, a lot of these watches are pretty darn real. I mean, or they are real, and I guess I'm always curious, is that one thing that it takes for a composite image is going to be everything being controlled except for the thing that really matters, that you can composite in. When it comes to, uh, the time, do you guys have like a specific time you shoot watches at? Uh, are there like, for example I know that, I think, is it apple always shoots everything at? I think it's like 9 21 or they? They make the hands be 9 21 because it shows the, the watch in like a very splayed out way and it shows like a variety of the length of the arms. Do you guys have something that's kind of like that, like a signature, or does it not really matter?
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know it's crazy Cause we got like Chris will pick it up here, but there's one time that we really like having on watches and if the watch isn't set to that time, we got to wait like 12 hours. It's crazy.
Speaker 3:No, adam, luckily we can pull out the crown and we can make adjustments there according to what we need to. But sometimes I have had opportunities on set where folks say, well, if it's not that time, do we need to wait? And luckily, luckily, we have the technology, we can change it. Do you typically change it? There are some industry standards A lot of folks know. 1010 makes a lot of sense where you've got both the hour and the minute hand pointing up. It's a very traditional sort of hand format. 1010, 1008 has been in advertising for a long time and, interesting enough, working directly with brands and manufacturers, some brands do have specific requirements for where times need to be shown. I'm thinking of Omega which, if I recall, is 10.07 and 37 seconds, which again in a still photo. Mike, like you said, we can unscrew the crown, we can get that to where it needs to be and even if we needed to change the light, we can composite another photograph in.
Speaker 3:But when it comes to video, one of the challenging aspects of macro filmmaking is building that incredible set that you see. That's almost like an obstacle course to get to the subject, having that five-second window where it looks really great. You can see the brand, you can see the logo, you can see the time you'd like, and then after that you need to figure out how to weasel your way in there and reset it and get the watch right on that shallow depth, know shallow depth of field. You know that plane where it really works for the image that we're creating. I love it. So it's certainly a great challenge.
Speaker 3:And then, beyond that too, you know date windows are something that we often have to set If we've got chronographs. You know watches that are also able to time. We love having those running so we can see a little bit of extra action there. But we take it on a case-by-case basis. I think, overarching what we look for in the filmmaking and the still photography that we put together, we look for making sure that hands aren't overlapping in an unattractive way. It's the same way that we would set up any still life if we were photographing a dining room table or an interior space, making sure that everything has breathing room, that the lines make sense. Given all those years of art history classes that the three of us took, hopefully something sank in. Hopefully.
Speaker 1:Man, that's so cool.
Speaker 3:Maybe it's a little pee-pee.
Speaker 4:I love CSD, yeah right.
Speaker 1:I was terrible at art history man, but it's one of those classes. I wish I would have paid attention to it more, because now every time I go to a more famous museum and I see something, I'm like I know that that was famous, but I can't remember why, but I am sure it was famous at some point.
Speaker 4:I remember, like Hieronymus Bosch, that's like it.
Speaker 3:Hieronymus Bosch. My goodness, what a deep cut.
Speaker 4:It's some of the weirdest things you'll ever see. That's why.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is when you need to let your listeners know that we're going to stray into deep cut. You know? 17th century. Dutch painters and masters, only jewelry fanatics. Sorry to say. That's just not what it's about anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 1:RIT was big on the history classes, but just maybe one or two more about watches. And then I kind of want to hear about your guys' dream watches, or maybe even just watches that you have. I guess some of the things that I was curious about is when it comes to working with models, so you guys are always very particular about making sure that watches are going to stay in pristine condition. When it comes to handling, though, part of the shot is going to be a living, real human, it can sometimes complicate things.
Speaker 1:I remember working again on that cryotherapy shoot and we had a bodybuilder as our subject and what was really interesting is do you remember, right before we started shooting, he went and just smashed these pancakes. Like he's like, okay, when are we going to start shooting? Oh, in 10 minutes. Hammers like 10 pancakes in a row because he wanted to like be bulked up as much as possible. And there's these things that, like you have to kind of coordinate with someone that is kind of part of the crew but also part of the subject. What goes into having to shoot watches on a subject that's got to be its own kind of ball of wax.
Speaker 3:I was going to say that, strangely enough, Adam also eats a stack of pancakes before every shoot.
Speaker 2:That's in the rider, that's in the contract, that's agreed upon.
Speaker 3:Working with models, especially in the watch industry, can be interesting because sometimes we're lucky enough to have a parts model, someone like you think about Zoolander, who has the absolute perfect hands. And those folks, they know all of their poses, they know how to make their fingers look relaxed, they've got a perfect manicure, they've got $6 million of insurance on those bad boys. But for us, a lot of the times we'll be working with lifestyle models, because a lot of the stories that we're telling are more environmentally set. And years ago, when we were just starting this, it was interesting to find how many poses gets the watch close to the face, because those are often two of the points that we really want to focus on.
Speaker 3:And you think about any ad where you see someone holding a perfume bottle or a watch or something.
Speaker 3:As you're flipping through the pages of a magazine at the dentist's office, it's pretty remarkable to see how uncomfortable people look when they place the watch right next to their face and their sight line. So you know, in working with models we also have small tips and tricks to make sure that the watch is appropriately sized for them, that it's going to be comfortable. But more often than not I find that we work in just directing the model themselves to really loosen them up, to give them the opportunity to fill that space and fill the role that they're going to be playing towards and let them feel comfortable in that space. That's where it's always going to look the most natural. Even something as easy as telling someone to take their hands, put them up to their side and just shake them out a little bit and then get people to really engage in just a more natural posture and things like that, because there's nothing worse than putting a watch on someone, putting an $80,000 camera on them and saying all right, act natural. That's just not a comfortable space to be in.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I usually default to being the one to make a fool of myself, and that tends to loosen up the models a little bit, take the focus off them a little bit, and I'll just be like shake it out, shake it out, Come on, shake it out.
Speaker 1:It's kind of funny. It's like a doctor's bedside manner and a lot of the times what people don't talk about is it's something that some photographers actually, um, they have to practice and work on and they, they, uh, I've been on, I've been fortunate enough to been on some shoots and with while I was a student, and seeing people practicing or that might not have had it, and it does actually change kind of the environment of the shoots. And this is the last one I wanted to ask about is, when it comes to a shoot, what is your preferred environment? Because some studios that I've been on, if they are in studio, it's closer to a coffee shop. It's good vibes, you know.
Speaker 1:There's music going on in the background, people are just hanging out. Especially if this is just for photography work, it's just going to be kind of hanging out listening to tunes. It's usually a spread of food. People are drinking tons of coffee just to stay awake and because these things can sometimes stretch on for, you know, 12, 16 plus hours. But some photographers I've worked with are, I don't know, just every type of style imaginable. Some people like it more like a rock concert. They're kind of yelling and it's exciting and there's a lot of energy, but it can be hard to maintain that for the hours that are required. Adam, what's your preferred studio environment?
Speaker 4:Oh boy, I mean you got to keep the stress levels down with the long days is really what it is. The environment is going to change per client. You kind of adjust based on the vibe of who the client is and especially how many of the client side is on set. If they're cool and it stills and we're not rolling audio or something like crank some tunes, keep it chill, you know. And just like I think the biggest thing, less than the environment, is just constantly checking in with everyone during the day, making sure, like like Chris will force me to drink water constantly because we'll just forget that we're working and get dehydrated and grumpy, and like sometimes if you just need to take a break, like chris said, there's no watch emergencies, so it's just making sure everyone's really comfortable and able to think properly without, like getting into that stress bubble, you know yeah, and it's.
Speaker 3:It's a lot of small things too.
Speaker 3:Like adam said, we will tailor the location based on the client.
Speaker 3:We love working on location in spaces that are furnished or maybe sets that we can construct that have a lived-in feel, just because that has been lending itself to a lot of the stories that we've been creating.
Speaker 3:But we're no strangers to white Sykes and studio environments as well. But it's the small choices that go a long way, I think, in building an environment on a set, something as simple as setting up a C-Stance as a coat rack for clients as they walk in, because at the end of the day we're going to be able to put together a remarkable image and product for our clients and deliver that on time. That's what we pride ourselves on. But I ultimately believe that what our clients will walk away with is how was the experience? And I think if they have a favorable experience, that just sets us both up with confidence like a firm handshake as we head into post-production and delivery. So when the client is unwrapping those deliverables two weeks later, it's a fondness that they have as they look back and you know the shoot was going well, we had the right music, or, oh, they had the coffee that I like. It's those small choices that really go a long way.
Speaker 1:Awesome guys. Hey, we're going to take a quick break and we're going to come back, and then I want to hear about your guys' favorite watches, because I have one. All right, we'll be right back.
Speaker 5:Hey Jay, hey Mike, Are you going to be?
Speaker 1:at the client workshop? You know I will. Hey Jay, hey Mike, Are you going to be at the client workshop? You know I will. What is going to be going on? Give me an overview. I'm trying to decide if I'm going.
Speaker 5:Yeah. So I mean we're going to have a lot of great presentations from Punchmark employees. We're going to be talking about new site manager features, some marketing strategies, some website content strategies, also have time for our clients to work one-on-one with their account manager, and we're going to have a round table with other Punchmark users, so hopefully that'll be some great information. We also have some great partners that I'll be talking, like the Edge Jewelcraft, pickup Media, the Gem Lightbox guys and Simplex National Rarities, so it should be really informative.
Speaker 1:Nice and then usually we do dinner. Are we doing dinner this year?
Speaker 5:Of course. So after the first day, we're actually going to do a happy hour Monday night on the roof of Fahrenheit, which is always a great time, and then, yeah, dinner at Fin and Fino on Tuesday night and also a welcome reception on Sunday night. That would be April 28th, so the whole thing will take place April 28th to the 30th. I hope to see you there, my friend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if people are, you know, trying to get in last minute where should they sign up?
Speaker 5:They should sign up at punchmarkcom slash workshop.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a good time and we will see you there in Charlotte, north Carolina. And we're back All right guys still talking with Chris Coe and Adam Antolek. So I want to talk about watches and I think not that we haven't been just talking about watches for a bit, but I it's kind of a running theme, it's a joke on this uh, on this podcast that I really want to own a Rolex one day, and I've wanted to own a Rolex, uh, since I was like 10. And I have like a couple of these weird like grail items that, uh, now that I'm an adult, like theoretically not even theoretically I could actually go out and buy these things. Most of them, like I really want off-white air jordan, one chicago's, like I've wanted that forever, but it would be very uh irresponsible for me to go purchase them.
Speaker 1:The other one that is on my grail is um, I want southern air date. Just watch, uh, rolex so badly. Um, I want it with the? Uh the blue face and I want it with the? Uh the yellow gold band. Um, I've always wanted that I think, it's a great, great watch.
Speaker 4:Are those only newer ones with the yellow gold?
Speaker 1:um, I think that they are are newer, but they also have, like some of the classic ones. I, I mean, I'd go for the gold, the full gold band. You know, I'd go for that. Uh, chris, have you ever held one of those in your hands?
Speaker 3:I'm sure I have, I have. So I, I think you're in the, in the world of a, of a bluesy they're. They're vintage watches. They're beautiful. Yeah, um, bluesy might be the, the two-tone band which you would look great in, mike I, I will say, but but a full yellow gold rolex is always going to be a ridiculous watch. I mean, it was something that I feel like in the 1980s was very ostentatious, almost like Gordon Gecko. Is this business sort of stature, ridiculous watch? You'd never want to spend any time with someone. But now those vintage gold Rolex, they're kind of coming back. I think of those watches as a Tony Soprano cookout watch. Right, you're going to be flipping the burgers with a gold Rolex. They're kind of coming back. You know, I think of those watches as a Tony Soprano cookout watch. Right, you're going to be flipping the burgers with a gold Rolex on. At least, that's what I think of when I close my eyes and I imagine Mike Burpo with a full gold Rolex Submariner.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the thing, though, is because, when it comes to getting a watch, I cannot be the kind of guy that I would get a watch and I would just never wear it. Same thing with sneakers is like I believe that sneakers are made to be worn and I think that watches are made to be worn, so I, if I was to get this grail, I wouldn't be able to help myself. I would. I would want to wear it a lot, but that's, I guess, kind of part of it is like do you wear your fancy watches? Like, um, maybe what? What do you guys have under the hood, chris? What have you collected so far?
Speaker 3:I dare not say it all for my fiance. She'll be listening to this podcast as well and she'll say wait, when did we get that one?
Speaker 4:I think that's just kind of how the collector thing goes, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:Adam and I are big believers that watches are meant to be worn. These are not supposed to be safe queens. You don't buy these things and put them away. We don't see watches as investments. Watches are milestone markers at least for me, I agree and they are objects and tools that are meant to be worn every day. One of the first watches that I picked up in New York was a 41 millimeter Omega Aqua Terra. It was a black dial with a date wheel on it and a coaxial escapement, and I love that watch. And if you hand that watch to anyone, walk it near a window. I mean, this thing has been through war. There are chips and scratches. I dare not ever get it polished or even sell it one day, because it has such an attachment for me, such a memory for me of moving to New York and starting a business.
Speaker 1:It's built up the patina that it has.
Speaker 4:It's interesting too because, like now, there's all these. We can talk forever about vintage reissues, but they're coming out with all these like pre-patinaed watches out of the box and it's oh crazy. It's like the eternal struggle of do I beat this up and does it look cooler or does it look like garbage now, and there's no right answer. It's like the eternal struggle of do I beat this up and does it look cooler or does it look like garbage now, and there's no right answer.
Speaker 1:It's really, whatever you dig, you know, yeah, are they like the really worn out Air Force One white shoes it's like. Are they? Are those patina? I would argue that those just look like trash a little bit. You never know. But what about you, Adam? I remember you said that you're newer to the game. Have you dipped your toe in yet?
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, I've more than dipped my toe in. I don't know. I feel like I collect a little bit differently than Chris. I'm definitely not in the game at this point for an investment purpose by any means. I just kind of get stuff that looks cool to me and I feel like I'd actually wear or just want to try. So, like right now I've got on this 1975 Seiko Vader's helmet chronograph, which is so good and I found it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, it's got a Star Wars connection. That's why, and and like there's this watch, the Omega Flat Jedi, which I'm gonna have to buy at some point just because it has the Star Wars name mandatory. Yeah, yeah, mandaloratory bingo, yeah, so like stuff like that. That just like I mean I think you can pick up the gist that I'm a huge Star Wars fan and like vintage military, that I'm a huge Star Wars fan and like vintage military stuff I'm really into. Like do I care about getting the original watch? Not really, but like reissues do the same thing and they're probably going to work better for me. I won't have to service them as much, they're going to be cheaper. And like, yeah, every single watch I have, I wear Every single one. Like I feel bad if I wear the same watch two days in a row, but sometimes you just get like sucked into it especially when you pick up a new watch in the collection.
Speaker 3:I found it was that case when I got the watch that I'm wearing now, which is Benris Ultra Deep, which is a sort of vintage style reissue. It's based off of a vintage diver from Benris called a Devil Diver because it's got 666 feet of water resistance in a super compressor style case. Adam and I worked on the commercial with the folks over at Worn and Wound over the summer in Chicago where we got to shoot a dive trip in the middle of Lake Michigan as folks looked through an abandoned shipwreck. It was a blast and it was one of those watches that when it actually came to market, I picked up one for myself. I bought one for Adam as well because it's just one of those moments we really wanted to remember together Our first commercial together for CoGroup, something we are really proud of. And once we got this watch, I think both of us were sending pictures of it back and forth to each other maybe 10 days. Our text thread looked like two insane people, but I wasn't wearing anything else.
Speaker 3:The crystal has a little bit of scratch on it and I love that. The band is really worn in too, but they're meant to be worn and we love them better for it.
Speaker 1:That's one of those things that I think is what I keep on trying to get back to when it comes to jewelry, is that jewelry is, at its core, is, a luxury.
Speaker 1:Actually, watches is one of the few things I actually put on just as close to the fence as I possibly can when it comes to a utility, because it does tell the time, but jewelry as an entire thing we have to classify as a luxury, which, at its core, is a want and not a need, and what I think, though, is fascinating about it is that it does start to pull on your heartstrings a lot of the times, and, for example, the one that I have on my wrist right now is a tag uh, aqua racer, and it's like is it like the most expensive watch?
Speaker 1:It is the watch that I got when I graduated high school from my godmother and um and do. What's funny is, until this year, I actually was not a, I didn't really wear watches that often, just because, when I work out, I have to take them off, and I was just constantly misplacing things, and what I didn't realize is that, yes, I do see it as like a milestone, and it does, it did mark something for me, so I totally agree, and it's so cool to hear that, even though that you guys are working in this all the time, that you guys still have some type of you know fondness for the space and that you do have that kind of love for the game still.
Speaker 4:So that's very exciting, of course you could totally work out in that. Probably I work out the Ben Roos that Chris is wearing, I work out I run on the treadmill and that all the time because it's got the diver bezel, because I'll do interval training and I'll set the diver to be like okay, here's five minutes from now and I'm going to do my sprint, and then we're good, and then you're using your watch too.
Speaker 3:And you know Mike watches jewelry. They can bring us closer to memories or moments that we really want to treasure. I think of a pinky ring that I wear every day of my life. That was from my late grandfather on my mother's side, don, and when he passed away my mother gave that ring to me and you know she still tears up when I go home for Easter and she sees me wearing that ring. But it brings me closer to him and the great memories that we have together and I think that can happen with jewelry, that can happen with watches and it makes it important for us.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I forgot about one of my. The first mechanical watches I owned was my grandfather's gold Benruss. It's a vintage from 1953, I think Amazing and I basically I busted out for family events because it's like you know my grandfather's long past and it's like a little piece of the fam there with you, so cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and these pieces, these relics, they will outlive us too and, like you said, they're objects of desire. They can be superfluous, but they have a life of their own and they will have a life after us too. You know, I look forward to the day that I can give a gift of my watches, maybe to my son one day, or something like that, and continue to tell those stories. Absolutely, that's the goal.
Speaker 4:Might we say we just look after them for the next generation.
Speaker 1:Ah, I love it. I've heard that once before Very cool guys.
Speaker 1:Well, I know you guys got a million things to do. I can't thank you enough. I'm so excited to get a chance to speak with you. Perhaps, maybe we can do a follow-up in a year or a year and a bit, sure and I can hear about the exciting stuff that you guys have been working on, because it sounds like you have so much going on and it sounds so exciting For the people that are at home listening and they want to hear a little bit more or maybe even work with you in the future. Where can they learn more about the co-group?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so folks can find us on co-groupnyc. We've got a reel up there an overview of some of the projects that we're very proud of that we've had the opportunity to work on lately. We've got an Instagram handle by the same name as well, but it's more of a staging platform. Right now, All of our work you can find online.
Speaker 1:Very cool, and do you guys give out your individual Instagrams or is it just directed back to the main?
Speaker 3:work. Oh please, I'd be happy. Adam, where can people find you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm just at aantelec on Instagram. That's what I use more than anything. I don't have a ton of watch stuff up on there, but if you like woodworking and construction-y things, it's pretty fun.
Speaker 3:Cool yeah, and if you'd like to follow my personal account, it's at Chris Co and that O is a zero, so that's C-H-R-I-S-C-0-E. We'll link to it in the show notes below and it's going to be mostly watches. You'll find some celebrities. You'll find some celebrities. If anyone likes F1, I've got a great picture of Lewis Hamilton up there too, when we got to work together a couple of months ago for IWC. God, that is the humblest.
Speaker 1:There's like a little slide right in there. Oh my God, I am so impressed right now. That was so smooth.
Speaker 4:I've just been working with the second best F1 driver. You're so close.
Speaker 1:Exactly, Guys. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you all, Everybody. I hope that you go and follow these people. I mean, they've got incredible work behind them and in front of them. So thank you all so much for listening. We'll be back next week Tuesday with another episode. Cheers, Bye. All right, everybody. That's the end of the show. Thanks so much for listening. Man, what a cool talk. I'm so pleased to have got a chance to speak with them. If you are interested in learning more about my two guests, Chris Coe and Adam Antoleg and Coe Group, you can check their information in the show notes below. This episode was brought to you by Punchmark and produced and hosted by me, Michael Burpo. This episode was edited by Paul Suarez with music by Ross Cockrum. Don't forget to rate the podcast and subscribe on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Thanks so much for listening. Cheers, Thank you.