Sober Vibes Podcast
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Sober Vibes Podcast
How Non-Alcoholic Beverages Are Changing Drinking Culture w/ Betsy Frost
Episode 196: How Non-Alcoholic Beverages Are Changing Drinking Culture w/ Betsy Frost
In episode 196 of the Sober Vibes podcast, Courtney Andersen welcomes Betsy Frost to the show. They discuss the Non-alcoholic beverages and how they are changing the drinking culture.
Betsy Frost is the CEO of Hoplark, a non-alcoholic beverage brand brewing hop teas and waters like craft beer to make health-conscious people’s wellness journeys more flavorful and exciting.
What you will learn in this episode:
- The rise of Non Alcoholic drinks
- Hoplarks mission
- Trends in the Non ALcoholic space
- Betsy's expertise in the Non Alcoholic space
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Hey, welcome to the Sober Vibes podcast. I'm your host, courtney Anderson. You are listening to episode 196. Thank you so much for pressing play on the Sober Fives podcast today. I hope, wherever you are, you are having a kick-ass day, got a great interview today.
Speaker 2:My guest is Betsy Frost and she is the CEO of Hoplark. If you haven't heard of Hoplark, it's a non-alcoholic beverage brand brewing, hop, teas and waters. It's great. She breaks everything down. She shares the mission of Hoplark.
Speaker 2:I have been a fan from Hoplark for a long time, so it was great to be able to interview Betsy, and even, too, for her experience. She's been in the non-alcohol space for quite some time and she also had worked over at General Mills, so she knows a lot of shit and I enjoyed this conversation. So she also, too, gives her knowledge about industry trends, how to get started in the space, and even to where she sees the NA space going in the future. So let me know what you think of this podcast episode. Always feel free to slide into my DMs or send me an email over at Sober Vibes or SoberVibes at gmailcom. Also, too, betsy was kind enough to give the listeners of the Sober Vibes podcast a 35% discount on Hoplark, so just use code Sober Vibes. I will include the link to order and to the code again in the show notes below. All right, enjoy the show.
Speaker 2:Hey, betsy, welcome to the Sober Vibes podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited that you are here and I'm excited to talk about definitely about Hoplark. I just want to I've said that correctly, right, you never know nowadays and which I do love Hoplark. I don't know, I was like maybe like early when they came out that I tried it. That chamomile one I really like because I can't do the green tea, the green tea one because there's caffeine in that. Something about tea, caffeine hits me way different than like coffee, so I have to stay away from the tea like coffee, so I have to stay away from the teeth. But I'm excited to talk about definitely the, about Hoplark and about the whole kind of NA industry, because this is something that's taken off and what year would you say that really had its boom? Would you say that post 2020 times?
Speaker 1:Yeah, in the US, the rise of what they call sober curiosity really started in 2018. It started to hit that mainstream-ish tipping point as people were trying on sober lifestyles as part of a health and wellness routine. The concept of gray drinking was hitting the US. It all started in UK and Europe before that UK and Europe before that but coming out of the pandemic had just been a hockey stick of growth in both the number of brands and options that are in the market, but also mainstream America just drinking less, and that's across all generations, all walks of life. Whether it's for my physical health or part of my health and wellness routine or people's mental health routine as well, I believe just seeing people, if they're not going totally sober, they're replacing occasions or drinking less in a session and opting for more sophisticated NI options.
Speaker 2:I love it. I got sober in 2012. So my options were O'Doul's God bless, though you know what, though, Because I've knocked O'Doul's a couple of times on this podcast but God bless O'Doul's for being the OG in the space of providing that option, but right, but that's all that there was. So, and then in there there was a couple of different beers too, but not not the hop waters, which I love too, and not mocktails in the cans, and then not to going into more of the more of the beers becoming NA options. So I really appreciate it and again, I'm just going to add this in there for anybody who is listening, because I always do when it comes to this topic If NA beers or mocktails or NA wines trigger you, you don't have to drink them. Coca-cola is fine. A regular iced tea, sparkling water, a Perrier coffee, slam a couple cups, that is all good. So where or I'm sorry, what does what's Hoplark's mission? Explain to us how Hoplark started?
Speaker 1:Totally so. We were founded in 2018 by Dean Eberhardt, our founder. He had taken a month off of drinking, he was doing Whole30, kick-starting his kind of health and wellness routine and he was a home craft brewer, a tinkerer at heart. He was sitting at a brewery with his best friend, andrew, like sniffing the beer, and he's sitting there and he didn't really miss beer or the alcohol, but he missed the complexity of what you get in a drinking experience through beer or alcohol. And we're sitting there being like why isn't there anything in the NA space that gives you this complexity from real ingredients, without any of the baggage? And went home and was like, well, it doesn't exist, I'm going to create it. And started tinkering with it like home brewing kit and made some pretty terrible stuff at the beginning.
Speaker 1:And really rethought the thousands of years of brewing which is the same process and created a process that really extracts the complexity and delicacy out of the hot to bring that flavor to life without any malt or sugar in the middle, and so started to create these zero calorie, zero sugar, zero alcohol, gluten-free beverages. The initial concept was he was using tea instead of malt and sugar in the middle, so our product never goes through fermentation. We brew tea like you would brew tea at home, and then we hop it and what the hops? What he started to realize was he could recreate beer-like flavors, or beer styles, as we call it. But the hops also started to become this miracle ingredient where it brings out complexity and flavor in other botanicals and so you can get full flavor drinks without sugar, calories, sweeteners, flavors, extracts, so a clean ingredient experience by using the hop to bring out flavors in other things.
Speaker 1:So what started as this complexity in beer and today we are bringing the joy of hops to people through new occasions and categories. We're in three different categories. We have a hop tea line which, as you mentioned, are caffeinated and uncaffeinated. We have a sparkling water line that has like lemongrass and hop and vanilla bean and hop, which is really about bringing more flavor and a premium experience to sparkling water. And then we have our Hoplark 0.0 line, which is our deer style line, where we replicate like an IPA citrus style and a West Coast IPA style and a hop sour style, and we're coming out with a hazy style as well, and that's all through brewing hops forward. Some of them have teas in them, some of them have other botanicals, but that's about creating beer styles that sit into your health and wellness routine, with zero calories, zero sugar and zero alcohol.
Speaker 2:So you guys were really the first ones to go more of the, let's say, health conscious of a beverage and more of dietary. I'm just going to say dietary restrictions because of the gluten-free option.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it happened that way and I think part of it was like it wasn't just about recreating or creating a social beverage. So a lot of the NA, or adult NA, space is about alcohol replacement and that was, for sure, a little bit of the impetus. But Dean was on this diet that didn't allow sugar and he didn't want to drink his calories even if it provided a flavor experience, and what we have found is, yep, a lot of people feel that way. I want something that's special, that gives me something that I can add to my day, that I enjoy doing, but it's good for me and I can have multiple ones. It doesn't. It doesn't it fits into anyone's kind of dietary routine that they're doing and it really creates the emotional benefit of getting to say yes to something that's fun and adventurous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because the whole 30 label is on that can. So that is approved. In that I don't want to say program, but in that way I guess it is a program.
Speaker 1:The eating program of it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, on that can too, it's approved, so that's good to have. Well, and that's. This is the thing, though, too, of with you do want something more, especially, too, if you're doing like that, something like that, or even if you're trying to lose weight or just being more of I don't want to drink sugary drinks anymore, so this is a great alternative to that to be able to have something where it's okay. Yes, as you said, I don't have to drink my calories and whatnot, so I love it. But so the tea was the first one that he made, yeah, okay, and then the water, and then was the beer next, or did the water and the beer come out the same time? The water was a little bit the water came first.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, yeah the water.
Speaker 1:Oh sorry, we started to realize, like the tea, when the tea was launched it was doing all things for all people where it was like a beer style, but it was also an untweetened flavor forward tea.
Speaker 1:And once we started to experiment in waters we really started to unlock new flavors in a totally different direction and so to give an anchor to a lot of third of people who come us, come to us looking for a beer replacement. And so, as we started to experiment and move into botanicals and we did we have a monthly limited release program where we do all kinds of compactions and fun stuff. We've experimented with over three dozen hop varietals and 150 different brews that we were making unsweetened soda beverages, so like a root beer style, and a cream soda style. So we wanted to make sure that we were really coming back and delivering against people who love hops in a beer execution as well, and that's what brought about Hoplark 0.0. So in that line, as I mentioned, we have a Citra IPA, a West Coast IPA, a Hop Sour, and then we bring some other limited releases. We just did a Mexican lager for example where we brew corn silk.
Speaker 1:So when you shuck a corn, that that hair, that's in there. We like brew that like a tea, a botanical tea, and then we hopped it to get a gluten-free lager type experience. So doing a lot of experiments to to come up with some really fun flavors, yeah how was that root beer one?
Speaker 1:oh, it's delicious, it was probably. Well, it was one of our top rated brews that we ever did. It was the most polarizing, though you either gave it like five stars or zero stars, and it depends on what you were coming in with your frame, even though we called it unsweetened. If I was expecting an A and W, you're like, wait a minute, if you were that, if you like didn't know what you were expecting, the richness of the root beer flavors, that's really like they're so cool, right, and I'm a, I'm a soda drinker, so I'm a sweet person. And yet, like I love Hoplark, because it does make my palate get smarter and find new things the more that I drink Hoplark, which I love. But that root beer like flew out of my house as soon as it came in. We couldn't keep it in the refrigerator.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, root beer I could crush all day long. Root beer is my favorite, and do you ever. Are you going to bring that back anytime soon? Yeah, we probably will.
Speaker 1:It's not on the schedule for this year, but we'll probably look at it again next summer, gotcha.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that one sounds delicious. Does the founder still? Is he still actively involved in the business and making new brews and all of that yeah?
Speaker 1:I took over as CEO in 2023 and, being moved into more of a traditional kind of founder, will go speak on behalf of the brand. Most of what he's doing, though, is creating, so he wanted more time to invent, so we spun him off into an R&D company, but it's the backbone of kind of what we do.
Speaker 2:I love it. And how did you find yourself in the CEO position of Hoplark?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I spent 15 years at General Mills in kind of brand marketing executive management and during that time, had started working with smaller companies, helping them find their strategy and growth strategy, innovation work and eventually left to do that full time. I love the entrepreneurial world, the idea of creating something, the freedom that you get to be a little bit bolder and experimenting and doing different stuff, and so as part of that, I ended up at a company called Dry Soda out of Seattle. That I ended up at a company called Dry Soda out of Seattle. I had met Sherelle, the founder. Like eight years prior, we met at a women's leadership conference and she had started Dry, actually in 2005. As an NA alternative, she had stopped drinking through multiple pregnancies, but with a huge booty and felt like when she went out to dinner there was Coke or water and there was nothing that played with a pairing or worked that way. And, as a forward trend in 2015, I think it was Michelin star restaurants were required to be able to even apply for a Michelin star to have an NA pairing menu that went with their meals and their flight. So she ended up like at the French Laundry at the very beginning of what she was doing, but I joined her in 2018 to figure out how BizDry, as one of the OGs, stand out now in a marketplace that's exploding with 40, 50, 60 new brands a year, which is what started to happen in 2018.
Speaker 1:And so I found my way into the space, really through Shirelle and a brand that I love. And what I love about the industry is it reminds me a lot about, like, the organic space and what's driven food in the last 20, 30 years. It's real ingredients, but it is this community of people who are like let's rise all boats, let's work together to create something better in the world. And that's what's really happened in this NA space as well. Like it's super destructive to the category there. For the most part, except for NA beer, there weren't really places for it to go in store, so it's taken five years to actually get distribution.
Speaker 1:So you saw this like growth of bottle shops and online marketplaces and a whole bunch of people who are like I see that need too. You see that need, but it's everyone creating something to create, I think, something bigger and better within our community and our world healthier options, and people work together in that space. So it appealed to me as someone who believes in collaboration, holistically but and purpose-driven companies. And then, when I left dry, hoplark found me and and I had known about them obviously being in the space, and what really appealed to me was like in this world of where food has all been driven by clean ingredients and knowing what's going into your food beverage for the most part, it's still like flavors and extracts and sweeteners and sugars and here dina created a process that's about cleaning ingredient flavor, which really doesn't exist outside alcohol, to be honest, and so that was super intriguing and appealing and coming in and helping to build a brand and, you know, share with people the incredible liquid and help them scale with a pretty awesome opportunity.
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Speaker 1:Well, I think there's a few things. One is we talk about the proliferation of what's going on. So in NA beer, basically every major manufacturer, large manufacturer besides the smaller craft guy, could now come out with an NA option. Think it's great because they have the money to normalize this in a way that some of the craft manufacturers can't. So Formula One's completely sponsored by Heineken Zero Zero and that kind of normalization of Heineken Zero Zero everywhere I think is great for the industry. I was just over in Ireland and the Guinness zero zero was everywhere in Ireland and I was.
Speaker 1:I was pretty surprised by how accessible it was. So that is one thing that I think is is great. I think we're starting to see restaurants, venues, places where you're out and about and socializing, having more options. Um yeah, it's a hard channel to penetrate, it's expensive, it's sold like store by store, restaurant by restaurant. So what really starts to, I think, drive accessibility is when people who are running bars, restaurants, venues understand that. No, I should have this.
Speaker 1:And I think we're seeing a lot more of it. Like a few years ago it was a lot of convincing and it feels like there's a lot less convincing. Like a few years ago it was a lot of convincing and it feels like there's a lot less convincing, like people are just like yeah, we need it.
Speaker 1:And then, from a kind of development standpoint, you see kind of growth of two things. One is beverages that mimic their alcohol counterpart, so an NA vodka or NA tequila or mocktails that try to mimic whole spritzes or Negronis or things like that, and NA beer obviously fits in there. And then there's this growth of kind of things that are their own thing, experiences and flavor experiences that may not be complete analog, but drive complexity and premium interest across the other side. So it's interesting, I think, that that second group of creating new experiences it's probably where the market goes over time, that actions don't have to just be not alcohol. They're actually premium drinking experiences in and of their own right and I love seeing that evolve, that it doesn't become an alcohol, not alcohol conversation. It becomes hey, I've got these really cool options to drink, would you like one? I've got these really cool options to drink, would you like one. And it becomes less about the not having it versus. Oh, this is pretty cool to add into my routine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will say that I love. We were at Costco over the summer and I saw and it made me just so happy because I saw Heineken, the NA in there. I was like a case of 18. And I was like this is wonderful, the NA in there. It was like a case of 18. And I was like this is wonderful. And it was in front of the alcohol, in front of the beer, right, so it was the main focal points of people seeing that. I didn't think that was to try to sell more or whatnot, but I really appreciated that it was out in the center and it was just cool to see it. That Heineken NA is very good. Same thing for that Guinness. When I found out Guinness I saw last year, found out last year that they had that NA option and I was like this is good. So I like to hear that that it's all over Ireland too. But yeah, that this, this is definitely a space that's becoming more inclusive.
Speaker 2:And and I bartended for many years in my sobriety journey and when they started coming out, I told my owner I was like you got to start bringing in a couple of these other than just O'Doul's, and he did, and there was one specifically that me, because he had a lot of employees who did not drink alcohol anymore and even one of the bar owners became sober too, like so and he that particular one, all of his employees and the other partner drank. But I'm like, dude, they're selling, even if it's just to your employees after having one after work, and your partner, who comes in here from time to time and has a couple like, but they're selling. So I I do agree with you on that and restaurants becoming way more friendly with that and a option, and actually a lot of bartenders too, getting into the art of not just making alcohol drinks Like, they're getting into the being excited to about the mocktail options and and understanding that and getting the education. Cause a lot of those companies too, like the NA liquors, will send in people of that company to do like little mocktail classes, which is wonderful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I love it, I love it, I love it. So is that the thing that surprises you then? That has surprised you the most in the space is seeing the NA option splattered all over Ireland. Is there something else that has surprised you in this?
Speaker 1:I think the speed to adoption has been fast, but from seeing it really hit the radar in 2019 or 2018 in the US.
Speaker 1:If you look at England and the UK of where it's going, it's skyrocketed in its size of the market and wherever you go there's options across the board and I think the speed of which, like alcohol brands have come over is a little bit surprising, because it really started as small craft companies trying to create something that didn't exist in the world, and then the I think if the social and cultural adaption like there is everywhere I go, there's someone in my circle who is not drinking for a while or is cutting back, or it's just like literally everyone, and I feel like it went from a niche conversation till no, if you care about your health and wellness, you are drinking less, if not not at all, and it's across every generation.
Speaker 1:It's like not a Gen Z thing. It's happening as much in boomers as it is in millennials. People are just changing their lifestyles and that felt like it really happened, like from 22 to 23, like where it was. Everybody was in the conversation. So I don't know if it's surprising that it hit that way, because it felt like more than just a trend Like this is a true shift in how the world is seeing alcohol as part of their lives, but the speed of which it's been adapted has been quite remarkable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just from being in that space. I are in the space for a while and I have to, it was not a good time for a lot of people, but 2020 was definitely, I believe, an awakening for a lot of people and people who then developed more of a problem during that time. Because we can't get this twisted Alcohol is a very addictive substance. It doesn't matter who you are. Alcohol is a very addictive substance at the end of the day, and so when you start drinking more of it, it then becomes habitual and then takes over.
Speaker 2:But then what you're seeing of what you said in that 2022, 23 period, then people were starting to awaken after the pandemic, and that's when 2022, it all of a sudden was like oh no, we're good, take off the mask, we're all set. It wasn't that bad Like it was like weird looking back of it. And then people had to wake up and be like, oh, there's a problem now. And then I feel like then the demand of people waking up and wanting to be on a healthier journey, because those two years for a lot of people were not healthy. So and just the enlightenment that we've all had since that period of time. So I'm very excited about where the space and being able to see the evolution of the space Is getting into the NA space a difficult process.
Speaker 1:Yes and no. So launching a brand is a week hard, regardless of where and what it is, so I don't want to belittle that. But although direct-to-consumer has slowed down from where it was in its height of 2021, it does provide an easy in to be able to find an audience. And this NA space still has a large direct-to-consumer base, because people are we call it like spearfishing they're looking for a solution and while it's definitely growing within retail, you're not walking in and finding a organized six foot run of options.
Speaker 1:There's some leading retailers who are doing that, so it's been a little bit difficult, I would say outside of any beer that had its own set at the beginning and in a category where craft beer has been very slow, and so you had retailers being really willing to bring in new options and riding the coattails of athletic and the growth that they brought to the set. So that has had a lot of momentum. The challenge there is that now it's getting oversaturated and so in any new category that grows you have this kind of rush in of like new people trying to create a category, get in there and there will be some contraction. That happens here in the short term and then it will. You'll see innovation come back in a few years and so it's a tough part because there are so many people coming in of trying to find like literal shelf space and then for some of the ready to drinks and and liquors, like people are still trying to figure out where it goes. Liquors like people are still trying to figure out where it goes, and so finding a space in store or where are people willing to make shelf space for it will continue to.
Speaker 1:That's true in any new category, which this, which this is. So it makes it makes it hard, it's hard to sell into retailers and be you know, get one one time a year where you get to sell in and they reset their shelves once a year and so if you don't get in that kind of in that period into a retailer, then you're really where can I scrap it together and build a footprint in a regional area and bootstrap it? But I think because of that, if you start geographically, you're finding a lot of brands pop up that way, because then they can get into bars and restaurants because they missed a retail cycle and they're out there working to build a footprint in a community and that seems to really work for this category in particular.
Speaker 2:Okay, where do you see the space going in, like the next five years? Where do you see it? Is this already a billion dollar industry or will it be a billion dollar industry? Where are we going?
Speaker 1:of drinks go from, just as we said, like mimics, to creating something new as well, and we'll see more consistent shelf space. The question is whether it ends up being an NA category altogether, where you have, like spirit-like, ready-to-drink beer, wine, or does it sit within its categories and you have an NA beer set and then NA wine set and then the NA liquor set. So I think that it's still a little TVD on how the sets evolve, but the accessibility is going to continue and you know what people have demonstrated is, once they come in, it becomes a routine for them and a positive routine. And even for people who are drinking, they're drinking. I think it's something like 80% of people who are drinking NAs are drinking them in the same session as alcohol and they're just cutting back their alcohol. And once you start to do that, that pattern definitely has legs for routine and it becomes more mainstream and accessible across the board.
Speaker 1:I think we'll see more of it. So it's exciting. I think it's a very exciting category to be in and it's really we've seen so much growth and so much news about it in the last five years, but it's really at its inf end. It will be a multi-billion dollar category here in the next five to ten years.
Speaker 2:So where is Hoplark going? What is the direction that Hoplark's going in?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we are doing some exciting stuff. We have these three categories and we've always focused on the liquid first, which I think is the right thing to do, so it's got to be delicious. But we are now working to bring the brand more holistically together so you can recognize Poplar in any of the categories that you go to and find. Right now it looks like three different brands, so building some more consistency behind that, bringing to life some of our fun brand elements. We have this mascot, Larky. He's a running bird with very long quirky legs and we brought him more into the story to bring our community into the brand more as well.
Speaker 1:So next year we're doing a number of activations based on some of our community members' passions. We have a woman, Kim, who's a Larky. We like to call her a super fan. She's been battling corn cancer and she wrote in in. Her passion is sharing information about early screening, and so we're building a whole month of campaigning to give Kim a platform to share her passion and where she loves to bring in Hoplar to her chemo sessions. And people will be like, are you drinking a craft beer? And she's like no, this is the best thing I could be drinking. It becomes like a fun thing that she does in her routine, and so we're really capping into that super fan of Larky to help us drive more impact within the community.
Speaker 1:We're also bringing in some fun innovation. The hazy style is going to launch in October, and that that is us bringing even bolder flavors. We're bringing pressed fruit into that ingredient deck, so it'll have a few more calories like 15 calories but like big, bold, juicy flavors and a fun lineup of lemonade releases that we'll be using to figure out what we're going to bring into market next. We just launched a smoky one which has black thing tea, which is black tea that is dried over a Pinewood fire, and so it literally is like drinking a campfire, which may not sound delicious unless you were like a whiskey or a bourbon type person, but I never had the experience of that flavor, and so we've been doing a lot of mocktail experimentations too, Like this stuff is perfect to drink on its own, but it's definitely a really fun mixer too, because it adds flavor without being overly sugary and provides a really nice balance, and so we've been doing some fun experiments and publishing some recipes on that as well. It's awesome.
Speaker 2:I love it and I love what you're doing with the community too. That's amazing to include them in on that and build more around that yeah, it's exciting.
Speaker 1:We are a brand and a company that's like you do, you, and let us all support each other and celebrate that, and so it's one of our core values and to be able to activate and live on it. It's just. It's so fun for us internally, but it's also so fun for the larger community as well. Exactly Exactly.
Speaker 2:Well, I love it. I've enjoyed seeing, over the years, the evolution of Hoplark and cause. I remember, like I told you, I remember when it first came out and you guys had sent me some. I believe it was for one of the National Sober Days. One year you guys had sent me some Hoplark and that was either in 2020 or 2019, maybe 2020-ish, but yeah, so I've enjoyed watching you through through the years and the evolution of it and it's a great product.
Speaker 2:Because I have to say this, and not everything, not everything out there is everybody's cup of tea. Right, like, you're not gonna like all the na beverages and I've gotten sent any beverages and some of them I'm like yuck, but that's my taste buds and that's the reality of life. Right, you don't like everything Every PR package you get. You're not going to like it all, but your guys' is a great product and I highly recommend for this, good people of the world that's what I call the listeners of the Silver Vibes podcast to check out Hoplark, and Betsy is actually going to give us a discount code, but you will have the discount code. It will be at the top of the episode in the intro, okay, or it will be in the show notes below. So check that out and then I'll just do the direct line for them to order for some Hoplark. So I appreciate it. Thank you so much for being here and sharing the for some Hoplark, so I appreciate it. Thank you so much for being here and sharing the mission of Hoplark and sharing your story.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been a blast, thank you.
