Talking With Your Doctor: Simple Ways to Get Better Care with Guest Pam Zelasko, MD.

Have you ever left a doctor's appointment wishing you'd remembered to ask one more question? You're not alone. In this episode, Dr. Pam Zelasko joins us to share simple, practical tips for preparing for healthcare appointments, communicating with confidence, and building a stronger partnership with your healthcare team. It's a conversation filled with ideas that can help you feel more informed, empowered, and heard. 

Download our Guide to Getting the Most From Your Healthcare Visit HERE.

Popular symptom trackers: 

https://bearable.app/

https://www.curablehealth.com/

https://managemypainapp.com/

http://www.mypaindiary.com/

https://flaredown.com/

https://careclinic.io/

Chronic Illness Tracker: 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=chronic.illness.tracker&hl=en_US

https://medisafeapp.com/

https://sleepcycle.com/

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Transcript

Deb Timmerman 0:05

Welcome to the Less Stress in Life podcast. I'm Deb Timberman, founder of Less Stress in Life, registered nurse, and board certified reflexologist. I help people navigate the stressors of chronic illness and understand how stress can feed ongoing pain cycles and impact overall health.

Lindsay Vertalka 0:24

And I'm Lindsay Vertalka, a master's level licensed physical therapist. I help people move through injuries, disabilities, and chronic conditions using a holistic approach that blends movement with the mental and emotional side of living with pain. Between the two of us, we've worked with and experienced chronic illness, both professionally and personally.

Deb Timmerman 0:44

This season, we're focusing on what it really looks like to live well with chronic illness. We're here to bring you practical tools, research-backed insights, guests who are walking this path, and fresh approaches you may not have tried, so you could feel more hopeful, more informed, and more supported along the way. Good morning, Lindsay. Good to see you again.

Lindsay Vertalka 1:09

Good morning, Deb. I'm excited about our new guest.

Deb Timmerman 1:12

I am too. So our healthcare system can be extremely overwhelming. We know appointments are short, medical information is really complex, and so many of you have told us you leave the office wishing you'd have asked that one more question. Well, today we're going to talk about how to become a more confident partner in your own health care. We're delighted to welcome Dr. Pam Zelasko. Dr. Zelasko is a board-certified family physician with more than 30 years experience of caring for patients. In addition to practicing family medicine, she serves as a physician leader and medical director for Answer Health, where she helps to improve the quality of care and support physicians across West Michigan. What we think makes Dr. Zelasco such a wonderful guest for today's conversation is that she understands health care from both sides. She sees patients in the exam room, and she helps shape the systems that support their care. She has a unique perspective on what it takes to communicate with your provider. And we are so glad to welcome her today. Dr. Zelasko, good morning.

Pam Zelasko, MD 2:19

Good morning. And thank you so much for having me. This is very exciting. And we don't we don't get out of the exam room and in front of a camera or podcast situation very often. And I'm not a huge fan of podcasts to begin with. We're happier here.

Deb Timmerman 2:33

Let's start with a question that probably everybody can relate to. Many people feel rushed and maybe even intimidated when they go to see their doctor. From your perspective, what can patients do to have a more productive conversation with their healthcare provider?

Pam Zelasko, MD 2:49

Probably first and foremost, I would encourage them to think about their goals coming into the visit. You know, a lot of times because of the structure of healthcare and the cost and access and all that, they they feel very um inclined to bring up in laundry list on every everything that they've thought of for the last six months, you know, and sometimes that can be a little bit of a burden for both because you can't always get through all of that stuff. So I encourage them to think about their goals for the visit and to prioritize if they have three or four things that are really top of mind, to kind of think of what questions they have about that. A lot of patients now consult with Dr. Google or with AI and they come in, which I'm not opposed to it, but there's nothing better than a relationship when it comes to talking about what really matters in a person's health. So I would encourage them to think about what they want out of the visit and to be prepared. You know, bring a few questions. I have patients that use the portal and they'll actually send me their notes or their questions ahead of time. And I find that extremely helpful because I kind of know then what they are wanting from the visit and what we really need to tackle.

Lindsay Vertalka 3:57

That's so I'm gonna pipe in um Dr. Zelasko. So first want to share with my listeners the reason we have you here today is Dr. Zelasko delivered both of my babies who are now in their 20s. And Pam's a special doctor. She is a private practice. We didn't really mention that in a family medicine practice. And somehow you find the time to have a little bit more time with patients to listen. And I can see as a provider myself, I get 40 minutes with my patients as a physical therapist. And I've often thought, oh my gosh, family providers or physicians have five to 10 minutes. So I love that you're saying, you know, there's a we know there's a lot you want to talk about, but in the reality is we're not going to be able to talk about everything. So prioritize. And I like the idea of using the portal. That's a great idea.

Pam Zelasko, MD 4:48

And I do think it, I mean, one of my goals has always been, and like my philosophy, when I first started in practice 30 years ago, I would always say to my patients, I'm I'm kind of your consultant. I can't do my job unless you talk to me. You have to be comfortable coming in and telling me. You know, because it's it's it's like being in a private investigator or an analyzer where you can't put the pieces of the puzzle together when someone has something going on unless they give you the information. So you the the setup has to be right out of the gate when you meet a new, like when I meet a new patient, they have to realize that they're like the key player in the interaction, shared decision making all the way. I'm there to listen and to provide recommendations, and ultimately the patient's the one who has to make decisions about what direction they want to go on with their health.

Deb Timmerman 5:35

So, Dr. Zelasko, this is probably a little bit off-subject, but maybe important for our listeners to understand. Lindsay said that you are in private practice, and I think what she means is that you're in an independent practice as opposed to working for a healthcare system.

Pam Zelasko, MD 5:52

Correct. Yeah.

Deb Timmerman 5:53

How does that differ?

Pam Zelasko, MD 5:55

Well, the beauty of it, and Lindsay touched on a little bit, you know, my practice style, I have control over my schedule and how patients are put into the schedule because I know, you know, certain appointments need more time than others. And when I know my patients really well, I can put a 40-minute block in. If I were employed by one of the systems in town, I'm they they have metrics that you have to meet. You get seven minutes or whatever, you know, and you're measured on it, and you're, you know, so so it's very um nice to have that autonomy. Um, and and if we have something that comes up that one of our medical assistants or a care manager says, you know, this really worked well for this patient. We we should try to implement this, you know, a protocol. One example that comes to mind is, you know, women get yeast infections after antibiotics. And and before, you know, it used to be like hoops they'd have to jump through. Now we have a protocol. If they if their symptoms match, we can send in a prescription without it being a big hassle for the patient. And I don't think you can do that on a system. So Dr. Polka and I own the practice, and we have you know a small staff that, you know, team-based, very team-based. The communication is almost in real time when something comes up. I and I don't think you have that when you're in a big system where there's layers of administration and you have to get approval. And so, I mean, I feel very blessed. And I always say I'm I'm my dad's daughter. My dad was a very independent, fiercely independent man. Um, he never wanted to work for anybody. So, you know, I'm I'm my own boss, and sometimes I'm a tough boss, but you know, I think it works. And in the other piece of it that you mentioned at the beginning is that I'm a medical director for Answer Health. Answer Health, um, one of the reasons I was drawn to the organization and I love serving the organization is because my peers, there's over 300 PCPs in the network spanning from Three Rivers all the way up to Potoski. We work together collectively to improve quality of care for our patients, to reduce costs for our patients, um, to negotiate contracts with Priority Health and Blue Cross to make things better for our patients. And I think if you're employed by a system, you don't have that voice. You know, I mean, it's hard work. I mean, when you and Lindsay can speak to this, and so can you, Deb, like when you have your own practice, there are extra hours that you know you have to invest. But I think it at the end it's always best for the patient.

Deb Timmerman 8:04

I often say I feel like I'm more of a nurse now than I was when I worked in organized healthcare because for the same reason that you mentioned, I get to spend how much time I want to spend. Or sometimes they just need a little extra something, something because they've had a tough week. You can't do that when you schedule on top of each other.

Lindsay Vertalka 8:23

Right. One of the things I guess I want to say to our listeners is I'm as I've been thinking about today's topic, and we want to help our listeners be better advocates for themselves or tips for developing that relationship with your provider. Patients have choice to an extent. I mean, sometimes there are limitations when it comes to insurance between, you know, is it in network, is it provider in network, out of network? But, you know, there's no reason you can't look for other providers if you're not happy with the one you're going with. Because there's benefits and, you know, positives and negatives to different kinds of providers. So I've been with Doctor Zelasko, I think what, 25 years? So, she's been a good fit for me. And that's what I'm going to encourage people is try to find somebody who's a good fit for you.

Pam Zelasko, MD 9:09

Yeah. When patients leave the practice, like if they move, and they'll often ask me, Oh, do you know anybody in, you know, Detroit? Or and and I always tell them to talk to other people who like their doctors, you know, because I I think that getting information from other people rather than calling the physician hotline or or, you know, their recommendation line from the hospital or whatever, is a much better way to do it. Because I mean, that's how you kind of get the inside scoop on how and it's not only the doctor, it's also the team. It's who answers the phone and can you get in? And are your prescriptions filled in a timely manner? Do you get an answer to your questions? You know, all of that. That is equally important to what goes on when you interact with your doctor.

Deb Timmerman 9:49

Let's talk a little bit about the role of the primary care provider. What do you see as your job within the healthcare system?

Pam Zelasko, MD 9:58

Well, you know, as a primary care physician, I think my first and foremost is, you know, just all the preventative stuff. You know, like, I mean, I'm I'm a big advocate of people coming in for an annual physical, um, especially as we age, you should have your blood pressure checked, you should have labs done, you should have screening. Um, you know, if you're 40 and up, you get your mammogram, if you're 45 and up, get your colonoscopy. I mean, there are a lot of things that we can do from a preventative standpoint. If we see your blood sugar creeping up, we can have those conversations about lifestyle changes. So that is my primary role. My secondary role, and you mentioned this at the beginning too, Deb, is you know, healthcare is very complex, um, especially when we start talking about patients who have chronic conditions or chronic pain. You know, they have multiple specialists, they have insurance, prior authorization issues, they have medications that they might be having side effects. Like there, it becomes this big complicated project. And I think as a primary care physician, my job is to kind of be a quarterback and you know, to have the conversation. I need to prepare before a patient comes in, I need to look through the specialist notes, I have to see, you know, like and I always ask them, have you been anywhere since I saw you last? And you know, and if and I'll say, How'd that go? And sometimes it went well, other times they're super frustrated because they had a test but they didn't get any results or they didn't have follow-up or whatever. So I think my secondary role is to be, you know, kind of guiding. It's complicated.

Deb Timmerman 11:23

I think that sometimes that's the most important role of a PCP. What I hear from my clients a lot is I go from specialist to specialist, and I don't feel like there's any continuity. I have to tell my story 10 times and nobody has heard me say what my issues are. We're running people through a mill to try to satisfy something and we can't wrap our arms around it. What's the best way to navigate that when that happens to you?

Pam Zelasko, MD 11:56

Well, I mean, I I think you know, the patient making an appointment with their primary care physician, if if they have that type of relationship and be very clear when they make the appointment, I'd like to discuss my specialist and and what the next steps are, you know, because you know, like I've been in the community long enough and and I know my specialist. I mean, there are some specialists I don't refer to anymore if the experience isn't good or for whatever reason. But the ones that I do know that I've worked with for a long time, I have no problem either texting them or calling them and saying, I saw so-and-so, and you know, they kind of feel stuck or, you know, like they're still having this or that. Like, what's the next step? Because I think that that is my job too as a primary care physician, is to be um an advocate to make sure that things are moving forward. Because no one, no one should, I mean, sometimes people do suffer with chronic pain, and that's kind of your realm where you're helping with that on the other side. But in terms of like getting tests and results, I think that's part of my job as well.

Lindsay Vertalka 12:53

Yeah, I often have patients and clients, Deb, to piggyback on what you said, who are frustrated. I mean, our you know, our healthcare system is a beast, it's complex, like you've been hearing. Um, and folks get frustrated that things take a long time. They have to wait. And it's not like there's a ton of pediatric cardiologists. It's so there's a lot of awaiting game. So I think people need to remember use your primary care physician to help be your case coordinator a little bit. Um, I even think about I've helped my grandparents, I've helped other family members, and I'm a healthcare provider and I've seen I've had my own frustrations navigating the system, and I kind of know how to navigate the system. And you know, most people don't have that background. So, you know, utilize your primary care provider when you can.

Deb Timmerman 13:42

Well, the first system to get through is the office phone tree. Always to go through the tree and you might get to a human. Yeah.

Lindsay Vertalka 13:52

Yeah, no, I Pam, I heard you say you've still got real people answering the phone, and that's you know, another reason I like your office. But more and more places are going, I think, because there's staffing issues, it's hard to find people, keep people, and cost-cutting systems are going to more AI and technology. And I know it's frustrating for some folks.

Deb Timmerman 14:14

I guess I'm just going make a little plug too for knowing the system that you're working with. So my daughter-in-law works for a local physician, and she is a team member of one of the larger systems and she's a very savvy nurse who is now not able to be a savvy nurse because she has to take all the questions before she can even address anything and send it off-site out of the area to a nurse practitioner to have that nurse practitioner assess which algorithm she needs to follow. And then so there's a delay in the way those systems are built. And a lot of times people don't recognize all the layers that are in there, and that you really aren't dealing with somebody that's local and knows your care. So if that's happening to you, ask questions, be an advocate for yourself.

Pam Zelasko, MD 15:12

And I think that goes speaks to one of the questions that you you sent me before the podcast, you know, like patients sometimes feel like they're being difficult because they're speaking up. And like, I mean, it's all in the the tone, it's all in the relationship. Like, I am a huge fan of someone calling and saying, you know, I'm I'm a little frustrated or I'm upset that my appointment with the specialist didn't go well, or the last time I was here, I feel like I didn't get my time with you. Bring them back in, sit down and have the conversation. And and sometimes they're hard conversations because the patient's upset and rightly so, or um, you know, it there's something that happened that that a step was missed or whatever. I mean, we're all human. Um, but but I think the most important thing is that the patient, I mean, that it's healthcare is their right. It's their privilege to have healthcare in this country. And I mean, it's unfortunate that it's gotten to the point where it's so complicated and there's so many layers, like you said, where like I mean, we're humans, we shouldn't be plugged into an algorithm, you know.

Deb Timmerman 16:10

And it's not to say that we're bashing everybody because everybody brings something to the table. But if you don't understand the system that you're navigating, then you get really frustrated because you don't understand why it's taking so long, or you know, perhaps there's a different fit for you out there. What would you say a prepared patient should come with? You already talked about sending a note via the portal to let your provider know what you want to address. What else should they come to the appointment with?

Pam Zelasko, MD 16:49

I think you know, a clear understanding of, you know, like or just being very descriptive. Like, I mean, it's very hard to figure out, you know, sometimes when patients come in and they're vague, and that they need to kind of be tracking their symptoms and the credicity, um, what helps, what doesn't help, um, because that's all very super useful information. And sometimes they don't provide that information and then they're frustrated because they leave and they then they think of it, and you know, the opportunity is kind of passed. So I think just being really thorough and complete about, you know, and and again, like we all have things that bother us physically, and and it's to to the extent that it's impacting your life. I mean, like to me, like I think that that's the most important thing is even my role is to say, you know, how is it impacting your life? And I mean, like, are you doing less things because your back hurts or whatever? And then, you know, getting into it from from that approach. So I I think it's just really important that you come in having thought it through, not just coming in and complaining that your back hurts all the time. I mean, it's I understand it, but it's not always helpful. And I'm sure Lindsay, with your background in PT, you you probably heard that a lot.

Lindsay Vertalka 17:58

I think you're spot on. We don't want to just know that you got five out of ten pain because I kind of hate that pain scale personally. Um, because that means nothing to me. I want to know, you know, are you having trouble standing at work? Um, you know, are you not sleeping well? So, yes, be specific. And I like hearing, I was curious what you would say is that are symptom trackers that are they helpful or not? It sounds like they are helpful.

Pam Zelasko, MD 18:21

Very helpful.

Deb Timmerman 18:23

I don't think that people realize what happens to them before they have a symptom. And I'll I'll give you an example. I had a client ask for a consult, and the consult was would reflexology help with diarrhea? So here's the rest of the story. She was on a GLP1 and she took her medicine and then had two days of diarrhea after. But she didn't track her symptoms to know that. So I gave her that job uh before she came to see me for reflexology. I said, just notice when you take your meds and what the symptoms are, what you eat, whatnot. She all by herself figured out that the medicine was not the right dose for her, wrong medicine, whatever, because she did that symptom tracking before. And so before she even came to see me, she was advocating for herself and calling her doctor's office and saying, I noticed when I do this, I have this two days after. Can my dose be adjusted or should I be on something different? So I know that Lindsay put together this wonderful one-page questionnaire to sort of prepare you to go see the doctor. But maybe Lindsay adding a symptom tracker for folks would be helpful that they could download. So we'll put those uh links to those two helpful pieces in our podcast notes, and you can just go and print them. So if you don't know what that looks like, it'll give you an example. And you don't have to use ours, but it'll at least give you an idea of how to be ready to go to your appointment.

Lindsay Vertalka 20:04

Yeah, no, and I also I've kind of put together this handout. I'm gonna add use your patient portal. I I know more and more people are, and it's good to know, Pam, that using that in advance is is helpful to you to save time.

Pam Zelasko, MD 20:17

And it cuts out the middleman, like because it's like you know, when they call and they talk to someone who answers the phone and then they get put through to the nurse triage person, and then it gets to me like sometimes the story changes, you know, in this way I can ask very direct questions back, and we have a you know a conversation going you know through the portal, and then I'm you know, sometimes we'll even order labs ahead of time or something will be helpful prior to the visit.

Lindsay Vertalka 20:42

So, Pam, I'm curious, is there one question that you really wish people would ask you when they come in for a visit?

Pam Zelasko, MD 20:51

I mean, I think probably the most important question that they can they ask it is, you know, like what is your philosophy in treating? Because you mean doctors just like any other healthcare providers can look really good on paper, or your neighbor might think they're fantastic, but they have a different approach. But if it's not a good fit for you, you know, like I like it when patients say, you know, what is your practice style? Or like, and I always say my philosophy is I'm your consultant. Um, it's important that we have a good communication-based relationship and that you feel comfortable talking to me. Because if you don't, then I can't do my job. So, you know, I think it's really important that someone asks, you know, that and too, like, do you have time? I think that's important because if if they're running on a very tight schedule or they're behind, it's important that the patient understands, well, today I only have 15 minutes, but we can get you back in and address anything else. I think it's that's a right as a patient. You should know that.

Lindsay Vertalka 21:46

It makes me think of an orthopedic surgeon years ago that I knew she would run two hours behind because she would spend so much time with patients and it drove people crazy. But folks would say, but she's willing to wait. So they kind of knew up front. Like right. I spend time with my patients. I don't know that she still would have time these days to spend two hours, but

Deb Timmerman 22:08

So if there's one takeaway you want our listeners to get from this podcast, what would it be, Dr. Pam?

Pam Zelasko, MD 22:16

I think it would be to do your homework and do your like, especially if you're dissatisfied with where you're at now, if you feel like you're stuck or you're not getting solutions to your problems and you're not feeling well, is you know, do your homework, talk to other people, see who they like. But go in prepared and you know, make sure it's a good fit because health is your greatest asset. I mean, like if you're not healthy, that bleeds into everything else in your life. And if you're frustrated and angry at the system or angry at your doctor's office, I mean, that is just not a good way to come in. I mean, it should be very collaborative. It should be like, I mean, it makes me feel it warms my heart. I have patients that say, Well, I was really looking forward to this appointment. I'm like, oh, you know, so I mean, it it should be that type of relationship, especially after 30 years. I mean, Lindsay, I mean, you're case in point. Like, I mean, a lot of times we have to kind of cut our chit-chat short and get to the business because you know, we we know each other well, we know each other's families. And so I just think that like at the end of the day, we're all humans and relationships are like the most important thing. But I don't think it's inappropriate to have a good relationship with your healthcare provider. I think that's how you get the best care.  

Deb Timmerman 23:24

Yeah. One thing we also need to touch on is that Lindsay, I know you serve a lot of people who are in that sandwich generation and have friends who are caring for aging parents. So, how do you navigate the system if you are the support person? Can you just give us a couple of tidbits on how to do that? We're cheering on mom or dad or responsible for Aunt Sally. How would we navigate differently than if we were the patient ourselves?

Pam Zelasko, MD 23:53

This is like your timing couldn't be better. My my mom's gonna be 87 on August 2nd, and she's declining. She's got end stage COPD. She was diagnosed with heart failure right before Christmas. I live four hours away. She lives in Northeast Michigan where healthcare is, you know, it's not like it is in West Michigan, just to put it that way. Thankfully, my sister is up there and is pretty much her caregiver. But we have tried to, I mean, I think the most important thing is again communication and then enlisting anybody that you can to help kind of surround your parent with support, whether it be other family members that are in the community, like my mom's neighbors, like we just recently put a lockbox on her back door, and we're gonna get a life alert because she had a fall. Um, so the neighbors are EMTs and they they they know her, they plow her driveway, all of that. So they are are willing to be, you know, the first call if that goes off, um, which is amazing. And then, too, like palliative care, just anything that you can do. And then the other big thing is supporting the caregiver. Like my sister, she calls me and she'll event the burnout for caregivers of um parents that are struggling, it's really tough. So you need respite from that. Um, and my sister and I had that conversation yesterday because she was feeling a bit overwhelmed after a doctor's appointment. And, you know, so I think it takes a village, then it takes a tribe to take care of a parent as they age. If you're blessed enough to have that in place, but you at the end of the end of it too, you have to make sure that the caregiver gets care.

Lindsay Vertalka 25:23

Yeah, thank you for saying that. I watched my parents go through elder care with all four of my grandparents, and it's a hard job. The thing I want to ask you when it has to do with um being a, I guess, the caregiver role or having your village, how do you feel as a physician with having patients bring a second person to the visit? Do you think that's helpful? Is it too many people to answer questions from?

Pam Zelasko, MD 25:47

No, I I think it's extremely helpful because you know, we don't see what happens outside the four walls of our office. And we all know, being human and having family dynamics, that there's a lot of stuff that can happen. Um, and patients, especially elderly, my mom is famous for it. She's stoic and she's not gonna tell the doctor that, you know, she's having burning with urination or that she fell. She's she's just she's proud. She's not gonna, but like so, having a voice to say, yes, this is our concern. Um, she's not eating as much or she's having trouble with her bowels or whatever is very useful, helpful information. The other thing that is super helpful is, you know, especially when I know my patients really well and I see them declining, having family members present to be able to start the conversation about goals of care toward the end of life and having conversations about palliative care. My mom's in palliative care, it's been really good for her because they can have some of those more delicate conversations and especially being a physician and being a daughter. Like, I don't, I mean, I we had the conversation about what my mom wants and doesn't want and durable power of attorney and all that, but for medical, but I don't want to be her doctor. I want to be her daughter as she makes her transition, you know. So I think it's and my sister goes to all of her appointments and like we talk before the appointment. I'd say, ask him this, this, and this, or I use the doctor's portal and I'll message him before her appointment. Again, that way they know concerns. And I think it's really important.

Lindsay Vertalka 27:11

Yeah, I would agree. I always tell my patients like it always helps to have a second set of ears too. People hear things different. Well, after you know, you do that debrief after the doctor visit and say, now what did she say about this? So I'm a big advocate of of that as well.

Deb Timmerman 27:27

And if your spouse is hearing impaired, always go to the appointment with them. Yes. I might have a little experience with that.

Lindsay Vertalka 27:36

Yeah. I have one last question I want to ask related to you know, somebody to be in the village. How do you feel about patients asking, or do you have patients ask if they can record the visit on their phone? Does that happen?

Pam Zelasko, MD 27:50

It has happened a couple of times, but not a whole lot. Um you know, I'm I'm okay with that. I mean, I think that there should be nothing that is discussed that isn't there right as a patient. I mean, it and and there are a lot of physicians who are now and APPs that are, you know, PAs and nurse practitioners that are using AI and they are recording the the entire visit because it helps them with their documentation and charting. So I'm not to that point yet. I think I'm too old school, but I mean it's here. AI is here. So yeah. Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to chat with us today. It has been very enlightening. I think we got a great nugget. Use your portal. I'm going to do that before my next appointment. Um we'll put our connections to Dr. Zelasko and to Lindsay in our show notes. Um, I know that Dr. Zelasko hangs out on LinkedIn, if I remember that correctly, for social media. So you can reach out to her through there. As always, ask questions, let us know what you want us to talk about. Thank you so much again for joining us today, Lindsay. Always great to work with you.

Lindsay Vertalka 29:06

Same. And Dr. Zelasko, I really appreciate you helping me on this journey of doing this podcast. And we're having fun just finding more and more people who are like-minded. And I love that about you, and I love that you shared your wisdom with us today.

Pam Zelasko, MD 29:20

Well, thank you so much for having me. And I wish both of you continued success. I mean, this is this is what it takes. This is you know, like there, like you said, there's a whole pocket of people out there that are um thinking about healthcare approaches in a whole different way, and and this is how it gets done. So thank you. Awesome. Have a good day, ladies.

Deb Timmerman 29:37

Thank you. The Last Stress in Life podcast is for informational and educational purposes only, and it's not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Listening does not establish a provider-patient relationship. Always consult your physician or qualified health care provider with questions about your health or before making changes to your care. Do not delay seeking medical advice because of something you heard here. If you are experiencing a medical emergency, seek immediate care or call at 911.