Studio Chat
This is where conversations about self care and life happens, to help you to become an expert in your own life when it comes to self love and self care. To trust your gut and have your own back and to strengthen your mind/body connection."To fall in love with yourself is the first secret to happiness".
Studio Chat
Navigating Dating with Phoebe Rogers
Imagine navigating the dating landscape with a roadmap that guides you away from the pitfalls of swipe culture and towards genuine connections. In this episode I chat with Phoebe Rogers, a clinical psychologist, couples counsellor, and women's dating and relationship coach, to unravel the complexities of today’s dating scene. Phoebe shares her expert insights on the importance of vulnerability and authenticity in online profiles, offering creative alternatives for those weary of dating apps.
Ever wondered how to make online dating an enriching part of your life rather than a draining task? Phoebe provides practical advice on matching energy levels in conversations, creating genuine profiles, and setting realistic expectations. The discussion also touches on the significance of self-awareness in fostering healthy relationships and the potential red flags to look out for, especially in the context of dating apps. Listeners will gain valuable insights into recognizing and breaking unhealthy patterns to establish more fulfilling romantic connections.
Tune in to hear Phoebe's expert tips on making the most of casual first dates and the benefits of pre-meeting phone calls or FaceTimes, all while learning how to keep relationships engaging and fun.
@therelationshipspace
Welcome to the Studio Chat podcast, the podcast designed to be your companion in the journey of self-discovery. I'm Barbara Thompson, your host and a dedicated therapist. I'm the founder and owner of Self Care Studio, a private counseling practice With my clients and courses that I create. On this podcast, I'm committed to ensuring that you have the support that you need. I created this podcast as a space for you to feel a sense of connection and a reminder that you're not alone in this thing that we call life, this adventure. This podcast is your weekly reminder to trust yourself, live life authentically and embrace the path that is uniquely yours. Together, we'll explore ways to break free from people pleasing, overthinking, allowing you to claim your time. You'll be joined by myself as I take you through some episodes or, during the year, I'll have some special self-care experts as guests on my podcast. So, if you're ready to step into a life that's truly for you, join me on this journey. Let's navigate the twists and turns of life together and, more importantly, live your life for you. Join me on this journey. Let's navigate the twists and turns of life together and, more importantly, live your life for you. So thank you so much for choosing to spend some time with me today. Let the studio chat begin.
Speaker 2:Hi, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the studio chat podcast. It's so nice to have you here and today. I'm just up around the corner, really in Sydney, and I'm speaking to Phoebe Rogers. She's my guest today. She's the founder of the Relationship Space. She's a clinical psychologist, a couples counselor and women's dating and relationship coach. So I'm really looking forward to this because not only am I the host of this podcast, but I think you know I might actually be a bit selfish here and get some tips and tricks, and I think for anyone out there who is dating or out in there and anyone who's in a relationship, we're always learning things. So welcome, phoebe, to the Studio Chat podcast.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you for having me, barbara.
Speaker 2:That's such a cool introduction and, yeah, we're going to share lots, I'm sure and, uh, back in the day it used to be, you'd meet someone, um, out or through friends, of friends, or at work, and now it just feels like again, from my personal perspective, being a single female, that, um, and of a certain age, that where are those good ones? Or like everyone's kind of attached or taken, and then the ones that you kind of go, oh no, thanks, really the lack, the lack. As a therapist, too, what I see from clients is the lack of um, what's the word I want to say here? Um, effort, yes.
Speaker 2:So also, the bars are really high, as now we're educating ourselves and me too, have been through this process of what do you want in a relationship? What are you actually looking for exactly? And then the effort of people putting into that is people put in minimal effort and then people give themselves over like, oh cool, he asked me to to. I mean, back in the day it used to be like Netflix and chill, and now I'm noticing with the younger clients, I see it's people are going to be interested to hear this let's go for a drive. And I'm like, oh okay, oh wow, we're going back to the 19th century, let's go for a drive. So anyway, you know anyone that's tired of dating apps and putting yourself out there. What are some things that you can share with us that are a single and looking to meet somebody so what I have noticed.
Speaker 1:Um, you said so many helpful things there, but this is a really interesting period in in time and I think apps have created this swipe culture and so people can put in minimal effort.
Speaker 1:That doesn't mean you should, um, and so what I often end up finding with a lot of my clients they've been swiping and they've been exhausted and they've been trying and they get over it, so they stop putting in effort.
Speaker 1:Um, and often how that looks is they're really scared to put themselves out there and be very vulnerable and very open about who they are, what their values are, to really say this is what I'm looking for, this is my life, this is what or who would fit in my life, and so people play it really safe. And so often you know, I'll look at people's profiles and I find they're quite generic, so there might be a photo. I'll look at people's profiles and I find they're quite generic, so there might be a photo. There'll be a little statement, but it's not really sharing who. You are, right, and so then that's one barrier to get to know you, and then you know the other barriers are engaging in these conversations, and I think people get put off on the apps when the conversations are very transactional, they're very short, and so how do you build that connection and that vulnerability? And that's really the key how do we build vulnerability with people and let them in?
Speaker 2:Yeah, as a dating and relationship coach, specifically with women. How do you find that? Are the old days gone? Are the old days of meeting someone through connections, just going out there and actually making eye contact with someone? I know Bunnings have started this thing in Australia. I saw that I saw something about? Is it dating nights or is it more? What I missed it? It's something that you go to Bunnings on a particular day and then that means you're single or something.
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know, I didn't read but I was like, yes, can you meet people at Bunnings? Yes, you can meet people anywhere, but I think it's. I read a book years ago when I was single and it really helped me just about like being out in the world and seeing people as people Like actually most of us want to connect. And so how do we connect? We like soften our bodies, we make eye contact, we smile a little bit, we slow down, we say how's your day? And having that, that openness and that warmth, and then that in and right and seeing the goodness in people and trusting that there's goodness in people. So I think you have to start there. So, yeah, you can meet people anywhere and in real life. I don't think that should be over. So say yes to all the things and things that resonate with you and who you are.
Speaker 2:It's a healthy way, because you can actually see someone and like, obviously we read body language, we read people's body language, so it's nice, um, because anyone can be anyone on on the apps. You cannot even be their photo it can be a photo from so many years ago or um. It's so easy to portray someone's not, and especially if someone is very attracted to um narcissistic type behaviors and they have that magnetic connection of oh, this is exciting and this is normal. It's such a breeding ground for um those type of relationships as well, because it's it enables people that you know yeah, yeah, it really does.
Speaker 1:And so the other thing I often talk about is like really slowing down, like slowing down the whole process, because I think we meet someone and it feels really good and we idealize them and they look charming and this is it. It's like you just don't know someone for such a long time, actually, or not such a long time, let say that I think you can get to know someone pretty well, but you have to get to that depth and you really have to observe and watch their actions, not just their words, like really watch their actions and listen to your nervous system and how you feel when you're with a person.
Speaker 2:It's a really big one because, you know, I don't know if I would have really listened to it back in the day, but when I always used to get butterflies and go on my, I used to think that was a really good thing, me too.
Speaker 1:And then you know I meet clients and they really want that and I'm like, please don't want that no, and the whole quickness and the rush and the yes and and um.
Speaker 2:I have heard that when you meet someone, that's healthy for you, it, it, um, is very like I feel like I've known you forever and there's a calmness about it and there's, it's so easy and, as a female, you never need, you never question does he like me, does he want to see me again? And because that person is like, yep, hey, I'll drop you off, I'll see you on Thursday. They always make sure that you are never second guessing.
Speaker 1:You always know what's happening yeah, there are clues and there are signs and just these little kind of gradual and moving forward together yeah, yeah, so, okay.
Speaker 2:So if someone is wanting to put themselves on dating apps, you know, can it be successful.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I met my partner online. It can be successful and I've met you know, I've met many past partners online who weren't necessarily good for me either. So just treat them like the real world. Can they be successful? I, I do couples therapy with people with really happy relationships. Yes, and I I feel like I'm so lucky in some ways to be alive in this time, actually in this time, in this generation. Like I work in a very female dominated profession, I'm an introvert. You're probably not going to find me at the pub, right. Um, it kind of it takes a bit to get to know me, which is like a lot of us, and I think then online apps can be a really nice in for people actually, and they can work right if you're there with the right intentions curiosity, open, open heart, transparency okay, so what do we?
Speaker 2:obviously, the red flags are the ones that I don't know. I was speaking to an American friend and she was like oh my gosh, barbara, on our dating apps every photo is a guy holding whatever they've killed, like it's a hunting thing. That apparently is really big in the states, like they have no top on. Or it's a hunting thing, yeah, it's like. That apparently is really big in the states, like they have no top on, or it's a half nude shot, um, or they're holding something that they've just killed and they get like that?
Speaker 1:I think it's. Does that resonate for you? Is that who you are? Is that your values? Is that aligned? Because it's not enough enough to love each other necessarily, or to like each other, but are your lives going in the same direction? Do you have the same things.
Speaker 2:So if someone's single right now listening to this and they're like I really want to meet someone, what's a couple of tips that you could give?
Speaker 1:some point them in the right direction of you could give some point them in the right direction of what to do. Um, so much so, I think, always look back at your history and where you went wrong, because I think most of us I went wrong at some point. Right. And so who are you drawn to, what are your patterns, what do you attract, what are your biggest fears? Kind of know and understand your wounds and maybe we'll get into that even more because there's so much there. So really understanding history and where you went off track, and then it's a really good place to start right. If you're ready to date, if you're open, you can define what you want right now. If you're ready to date, if you're open, you can define what you want right now.
Speaker 1:Um, so I talk to him about, you know, defining your values. Um, what matters most to you in a relationship? What's your life direction? What qualities do you bring to a relationship? What would that ideal partner bring?
Speaker 1:You know, like really, really dream, because I think sometimes women play it safe and small, like we think we can't have it, and so start to visualise it and imagine it and write it down and really picture it and then use those values and those passions and things that are meaningful to you on the app and base your profile around that and have you know pictures that are very authentic and very true to who you are and how you live your life, um, and and then match the energy of the person, people you're communicating with. So I think you can get like pretty exhausted, pretty burnt out, and it can often be because we're giving so much right and we're keeping the conversation going, and so I think just watch the exchange and, and you know, guard your own energy. And I think you see it as an addition, because I think a lot of us it can be the thing that we do to find love, rather than in addition to you know my life or to how I date, or yeah, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2:That's some really helpful tips. I think it's important for us to go back on our history and think of the relationships we've had. Um, even doesn't have to be a relationship, it can be just dating, or how we've met or even friendships, like we do those patterns everywhere actually, yeah, yeah, and also I love that you said dream I do say that to my clients too is is uh, nothing's like.
Speaker 2:Go to town, like who do you want Like, and make it go big or go home, as in. A lot of people are like oh, I couldn't ask for that, that's that's so, um. When people go, oh, I want to say he's good looking, but oh, that's that's so, um, yeah, and I'm like oh, my God, what does he look like? Tell me Like, yes, he's good looking. Tell me all the details. What do you find attractive?
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly Because I think a lot of women like we're givers and so it's actually to get into that place of what do I want to receive finally in my life?
Speaker 2:Ah, finally, my life. That's beautiful. What do we want to receive? Yes, yes, and also something that I read a long time ago which really resonates with me and I find myself repeating it in my practice a lot is how someone shows up in the beginning. They never get it within. I mean this is, if they want to do work on themselves or they are, or continuing, that's a different story.
Speaker 2:All right, most people. How someone shows up in the beginning and it's all that fun stuff and all the exciting stuff. It doesn't get any better than that. So what I mean by that is, say, you go on a couple of dates and oh, yeah, it's so exciting and it goes really fast and it's amazing. And then all of a sudden you notice that he has a short temper or, um, does something, and you go, oh, that's not okay. And then after a few months, you know you. You never get that snippet of those first six months or the first few dates, and that's what I always often share is just be wary of, like you said, you never really know anyone. Um, and really, how many of us actually know ourselves isn't that a good point? Like we always look at externally and go, oh, how much do we really know this person? Yes, but how much do you know yourself first?
Speaker 1:you've got to know yourself first before you can be in a relationship, a healthy relationship yeah, because then you can communicate like how I feel, what I need from you, what really matters. You can listen to your body when that kind of feeling happens and it your stomach kind of drops and then you honor because you're like, oh, that doesn't feel right, that doesn't sit well, and then you can talk about that and see what comes about. But yeah, you have to know yourself right that that strong, stable base of who you are you want to hold on to that.
Speaker 2:You don't want to lose that as the relationship progresses you can't be looking for someone to fulfill your needs or to love you. That's. That's an interesting one too. When we're dating is looking for someone to complete us or someone to make us feel full.
Speaker 1:Well, to validate our emotions. I mean, this is where I was and you know have really worked on that. I think I put a lot of emphasis on, you know, my partner should understand my every emotion and they should validate how I feel and et cetera, et cetera. And actually that puts so much pressure on a relationship and I really was seeking that from someone because I wasn't doing it for myself. Right, not validating my own emotions, not sitting with what's happening inside?
Speaker 2:Yeah, as a dating and relationship coach as well. Obviously it's being a clinical psych, but what's your take on? We're mirrors, so whoever we bring into our life is a mirror of how we feel about ourselves.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, I'm just saying yes, like it's. You know that. Oh, I'll just have. Like they're not dreaming big yeah Right, because maybe I don't believe I deserve that, maybe I don't believe that exists, that, maybe I don't believe that exists. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Or, um, you know, if you have something like fear of abandonment or I'm going to be alone forever, we're often not connecting with ourselves and then we're drawing in a partner who's also very abandoning. So, yeah, often a partner meets us exactly where we're at and is triggering that part within us that needs to be healed right, and until it's healed, we're not going to attract something healthy. I think it all starts within.
Speaker 2:That's right. And when we talk about healthy and dating, how slow is it supposed to go? Like, are there any rules or anything, any passions that you notice? That is like the I know, and as we get older, people don't have the time to. Hey, let's give it a couple of years and see if we go like. You know, anyone speaking like I'm in my nearly mid-40s it's like, yeah, if I'm gonna like someone, I'll like them. Like, I'm not gonna muck around just because I don't have time, but I don't have the like and I mean this in the best way.
Speaker 1:I don't have the patience like you're either with me or you're not with me yes, and I think that can work both ways, like it can define your boundaries really clearly. This is what I need. This is the standard for my life, right? Or I force us, you know, or force the idea that we should commit to something and be in a relationship, but I actually haven't assessed this fully. I haven't slowed down. Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1:It just takes time and you know, I was a big rusher, I used to rush, and it's like, you know, two months together and we're moving in, or you know, we're getting engaged for all these crazy things, and I think when you do that, the love kind of and the excitement kind of, you're in that fog and haze, aren't you? And you miss all the underlying stuff. So you want to be seeing people consistently over a period of time. I think you know those things you were saying like, oh, I don't like that, that's not, that's going to be there. We just have to look. Yeah, we just have to keep tuning in and a big thing.
Speaker 2:I noticed that I used to really be like, oh, they don't know what they're talking about, my friends and family. So if I would meet someone and they'd meet them and their initial thing my girlfriends, my very close girlfriends I don't like him. Yeah, listen to them, they're not.
Speaker 1:They can see things that maybe you can't see things exactly because you're inside of it, right, and you just like in this, this feeling and and I'm talking about the urge to merge, like we want to attach, we want to connect, we want to have our person, and we're just in all of that, and so we do miss things and why would a friend want you to not have what that right, they just want the best. And yeah, listen, I've, I've been there and not listened to a friend who's also a psychologist and I was like gosh, no, that's okay, we're human beings.
Speaker 2:But exactly, I think too, with dating apps, just be weary. That um, you know it. I don't want to it sound like I'm guy bashing or being rude, but I know women do it too, but it's. We've got to raise the bar a little bit because, you know, at a certain age range, age range, there's a lot of guys that are in fully committed relationships, that are on hinge and bumble and have relationships with women like it's just like this revolving door, every few months they they can just um have sexual relationship and it's a relationship too, why they are on and off with someone else. So it's, it's very um, that's what I mean.
Speaker 2:Go, go by your gut and go by um, yeah, if they only like a big red flag for me years ago and this wasn't online dating is a guy would only see me on a Tuesday and a Thursday night, and if I was like really good that week, I might see him like Saturday night, and then I didn't realize that the reason he saw me on those nights was because he was seeing other women on the other night. Right, busy guy, yeah, but that's the thing, yeah. So if someone, if you're meeting a guy for I don't know anything. It could be the drive, it could be Netflix, it could be going to get ice cream or going for a coffee. If it's a particular day, and it tends to be that same day, I don't know. I'm just checking out there and now it sounds trivial. People like oh, that's really obvious, barbara.
Speaker 1:Uh, no, it wasn't no it's not because that's the, the desire and the longing and you know we have also these biological urges and you know attachment systems inside of us driving our behaviour when we want to connect. It's not obvious. And it's also, I think it's not obvious If we have a background where we've grown up, say, parents aren't emotionally available, available. We've had a history of relationships where a partner hasn't been emotionally available and that's been our norm. We're not gonna see that, we're not gonna feel that, and so it can often take a bit of healing work that to then figure out. How does safety feel right? How does safety and security in something that's healthy, how does that actually feel?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really important and I think, on these dating apps too, is be wary of how busy someone is. We're all busy and I think it's like, oh, I'm really busy, I'm really busy. It's like, oh, are you?
Speaker 1:not wanted. Yeah, it's what I mean. We're all busy. You know what it's like to be busy, I'm sure. And just think, if we want it, we make the space right, yes, and watch the language.
Speaker 2:So obviously becoming a therapist. This is stuff that I never knew before. It's in a text message. Read exactly what it is. If it's probably or maybe, don't skim over that word. Oh yeah, we'll probably catch up in the weekend, because I tell you what 20 year old Barbara was like.
Speaker 1:We're catching up in the weekend now she'll be not putting anything in her calendar, right?
Speaker 2:yeah. But now it's like oh, that person has said this word or this word and it's clear and follow, and just simple things like I will pick you up at 7 o'clock and then if they pick you up at 7.30, or if they change plans or they never follow through with what they say, or yeah.
Speaker 1:Consistency, reliability, predictability. I would also say don't hold back if that happens, because you know if, if someone's sincerely late, that's an opportunity to talk it through and repair right, if yeah, and and just try and get some understanding because it might actually be workable. Some of these things I just you know, I think, oh person's late, we might not say anything. We're scared of being assertive. Say something and see what happens yeah, yeah, I like that, yeah.
Speaker 2:so if someone's like tried all the dating apps, maybe tried um some dating groups or got a dating coach and they're like I don't know, I don't think this is for me, maybe I want to give up altogether, what should someone do if they're really at that point where they're like I actually just can't be bothered and it's all work and it's all? I've seen what's out there and it's not great. What would you tell someone like that? That is basically giving up.
Speaker 1:I guess I would want to understand it really deeply, first of all, to give up. It can be a now thing, right, if you need time and space to regroup. You know dating and disappointments can take a you knowments can take a confidence hit, and so if you need to kind of take the time to regroup and have some space and kind of build yourself up again, do that. You don't want to date from an energy of being hopeless and cynical. That will never work, so pause. But I would also go. If you really want love in your life and you want a relationship and this was me I just knew I wanted to have a partner in my life. I wasn't going to stop, but I would pause and so I'd figure out is this like a permanent thing? Is this calling for a pause? Is there something that you could do differently next time to protect you from getting hurt? Is there a different energy that you could show up with? Could we restore some hope and optimism? So I just would try and understand it.
Speaker 1:But I think the reality is, if we want love, it's about being out in the world, right? Yeah, yeah, I do. I totally feel for those people and it can be, you know it can really hurt your soul absolutely. But, um, yeah, I worked with a coach myself, someone who helped me, and she said, like she used to tell herself I don't care if it takes until I'm 80, I want love in my life, I'm gonna go after it and I really love that because it's just honoring who you are. If that matters to you, so be it. And will it be worth it when you get there?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's it and because I think a lot of us, especially when we're single, we can look around and you gotta remember you can be. You're single by choice. I've chosen to be single totally and I've needed to be single for a really long time. I think it's been um six years this month, six years um, and I've needed every single bit of it. And I often wonder I go, oh yeah, be nice.
Speaker 1:And then I'm like, oh no, I do well, I think, wherever you are, there's beauty in single. Creates time for yourself, for your own needs, just building the life that you want on your own terms. Um, yeah, and I also think is how we talk about being single yeah, it's single, but being open.
Speaker 2:So it's like, um, oh yeah, if the opportunity comes up I'll definitely say yes, but it's just being um, not being swayed by um. Especially the younger girls that I see everyone has all got a partner. They don't have a partner. Um, the what's wrong with me? Because everyone else is like now you know, you notice all your groups all get engaged and then they all get married and they all have a baby and they all do the thing. And it's quite interesting to be like, just because someone has someone doesn't mean that they're happy or they're fulfilled. Like you go on your own timeline and just because society says that, oh, if you're a woman and you don't have anyone, there's something wrong with you or you get left on the shelf. That's not true.
Speaker 1:That's like maybe you're just someone that's learning to understand themselves and won't just date anybody exactly, yeah, yeah, and that's a gift right to take the time to get to know yourself and understand yourself, and, yeah, what makes you tick that is. That is a beautiful journey it is.
Speaker 2:It's really special and beautiful. I just wish more people would understand that it's such a really nice thing. Okay, I actually really, really love it and I want someone out there, but I guess it's kind of different. I guess if I was yes, I'm going to be 44 soon so at my age, if I hadn't been married before and done all that, maybe my outlook on being single would be, but it feels like I've been there, got the t-shirt and it was really shit for me.
Speaker 2:I was like I'm not really missing out on anything, but when the person comes, yeah, I know what I'm looking for and it's great. I'm very clear and that was never what I was like I would, I'd never um, and it's just such a weird concept to think about when you're dating. I never had a. It's not about ticking boxes. I never gave myself the time to be like oh, what am I attracted to? Who do I like? You know, what kind of guy do I want? Who do I want to be with? I never had that conversation with myself. It's like when I met someone, I'd be like oh, you'll do Correct, you'll fit. You're a company, you're a guy, you're good enough, you're at two arms and legs away we go.
Speaker 2:You call me every time then yeah, exactly yeah. So it's giving someone the time that it's actually being single is good, but you know, I do have to be fair and saying that if I hadn't gone through that journey and maybe I would look at being single different and I can honor that, I can maybe honor some women that are in their 40s and haven't maybe had any long-term relationships or have been, you know, haven't had a taste. That may think differently to what I think about. But being single is, um, you can't run away from anyone too. That's a hard thing is, when you're a single, you have to face all your stuff. You can't. And sometimes when I come home I think, god, I'm messy, I've got no one to. Oh, it's me, I got no one to blame it's, it's it really opens you up to everything.
Speaker 2:But I want to ask you something is because a lot, of, a lot of us, um, have I had a real knack for attracting emotionally unavailable partners, where I'd be talking to someone and then, at the end of the night, find out that they were married and be like, oh God, okay. Well, why am I always attracted to people that are taken? Or why am I attracted to guys that will never commit? And then you end up losing yourself. Because if you are, if you actually do end up in a relationship with someone that's emotionally unavailable, um, you do morph yourself into them to try and get them to love you or be with you. You really lose yourself. So you know, how can someone listening to this that, if they know that they, you know, are attracting emotionally unavailable partners, how can we stop that?
Speaker 1:um, own it, like, really own it, name it, commit to never wanting to do that again as a starting point. But it's both. It's, it's who we choose, um, but it's also what we don't do or what we don't say, right? So the, the other person, the emotionally unavailable one, is often more needy and takes up a lot of space, and we let them take up a lot of space, right, or they're hot and cold and we kind of mold ourselves around them, and so a lot of that. I would say listen to your energy, right. If you're you're giving a lot, if you're accommodating, if you're pleasing, if you're meeting their schedule, if you're meeting their needs, at one point you're going to end up tired, exhausted, resentful.
Speaker 1:I reckon it's going to be doing, doing, doing, yeah, and that thing that I said earlier, like what would I like to receive from a partner? Right, how do I feel most loved? And then the, the other bit of work is often we attract emotionally unavailable partners because we're not emotionally available to ourselves, right? So so what's happening inside for me? How do I feel today? What's triggering me? Where is that trigger coming from? Where do I feel that in my body? How can I support that emotion. How can I say it's okay, you feel that way, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:And so you become the, the kind of the attachment to yourself that you're seeking and that you need. So I think we start to create that model of attachment for ourselves, and so then we become clear how that's going to feel with another person Not exactly the same. Yeah, don't say there'll be differences. I've got a great partner, is he's, he's empathic, that that skill is more mine, right, and so I have to give that to myself. But he gives presence in care and support, right. So I think from becoming more supportive to myself and validating of myself, I was more able to attract a healthy partner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because that's what I've got. So, yeah, I've done myself, done a lot of work. Obviously for that amount of time you, you know I had, I had very, um, severe patterns that were not really not good and I had to really and regroup and work on that and I have thank goodness, and part of that. I think it boils down to three. For me it was three things. It was worthiness with self-esteem, it was my relationship with my dad. So worthiness and self-esteem actually came from my father. I didn't have any of either of those, so that didn't help.
Speaker 2:So if you don't feel great about yourself, you're going to attract shit, 100%. That's exactly what and I'm speaking about my experience, not anyone else's what I did. But then at the same time, when I really got into the deeper stuff um, this is why, obviously, therapy right is I could really be like well, it makes sense for my 20 years of my life when I had a relationship with my dad. He showed me love. Now my dad's a narcissist and he's emotionally unavailable, but that was love to a little Barbara. I go out into the world. I'm gonna look for someone that loves, like my dad, because to me that's why it feels so good, because that was love to me.
Speaker 1:Exactly, it's familiar, right, and that's what we just gravitate to what's familiar until I think it might be familiar. But is it good?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I didn't know either. I thought it was good because it was so familiar. I didn't even know what a healthy relationship was. So the things that when I was in very unhealthy relationships for 38 years but it was so normal for me because that's what I was around, even when people would say to me, oh, maybe I'd be like, oh, it's okay, like seriously, I was really living that dream of you know, if you don't know, something you don't know and I honestly didn't know. And so through that, I think it's really important to know that don't don't get into the thing what a lot of people have. I don't mean to be rude when I say this, but so many people out there are in relationships, whatever type of relationship it is, they can't, they don't share their true feelings.
Speaker 2:They don't talk and they're just in for convenience as in. Well, this is kind of working. I loved you at one point. It's easy, We'll just keep going.
Speaker 1:I won't be on my own.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh my God, I could not handle that, hence why I left my mat. I couldn't tell you how opposite I feel from that. It just makes me feel I could not wake up every day with a so-so. But I see that a lot, and I'm sure with you too. People come and share with us as therapists as a whole, and we talk to people and hear how they're feeling. When we get to know them they tell me how they feel. But I'm like your husband there. Oh no, I don't know how or no, he might go or get angry or whatever. Yeah, and that's that one person, that. And we're not taught how to do this. So it's not no one's fault. We're not. We're not meant to know how to talk. We're not meant to know how to date. We're not.
Speaker 1:We need to learn these things exactly and relearn, because what we often learned was flawed yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's right.
Speaker 2:Um, so that's just something that I wanted to personally share is don't be hard on yourself. And just knowing and you know, I want to normalize this stuff, I want to normalize that I would walk into any room. It could be any room. It was conferences, it was um nightclubs back in the day, it was a restaurant, it was a bar, it was a movie theater, anywhere I could go, I would scan the room and be like, oh, he's all right. Yeah, he would be definitely a certain type and emotionally unavailable, like I had that gift, because when you, this stuff is so subconscious you guys, you just felt the energy right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's that energy yeah, so, um, yeah, listen to those butterflies, listen to how you feel and give people a chance, like you're not trying to catch them out, but just how do you feel when you're with them? Like, um, do they make you feel calm? Exactly, but do healthy relationships? Yes, you're the best person for me to ask you this. I am a little bit worried. When I get into a healthy relationship, I'm going to be bored and he's going to give me the ick because he's going to be like it's going to be so opposite to what I've ever had. Is there some truth to that or not.
Speaker 1:Well, I still think there's a level of working at relationships, right. Yeah. Yeah, can it be boring? Yeah, I think I'm just thinking about my own relationship, I don't know if we feel bored. There's just a kind of sense of kind of sameness, right, like this is the direction that we're plotting together, but I often work hard to create, you know, it's not not excitement and not adrenaline, but you know, like that energy of fun and playfulness. I think it's that's more the energy, right, like, yeah, you're talking about playful, fun energy. Like let's be silly, let's laugh together, let's try a new restaurant, let's go to a movie, let's dance around the house. Like, let's just be silly and playful, right, and then you can bring spontaneity to your relationship. But there are moments when it's boring, right, but it's just life plodding along and that's okay. I always go. I know what I'd rather. I'd rather stability, security, predictability, yeah, and with that you can always say to your partner like I'm feeling a bit disconnected, let's talk, let's plan a date night. Right, you can.
Speaker 2:This idea that we can create the love that we want really can that's a healthy relationship that you've just described, because the flip side of that would be um, always on tender hooks. Is he gonna text me? When is he gonna call? Going out tonight? Oh, that's cancelled. Or the drama, or the absent, it's literally the, as you talk about energy, it's the physical sensation, it's the cortisol, it's the dopamine, it's all those hormones and and you know all that kind of stuff that's playing on the body that gives you those. You know, if you're in a relationship or dating someone that has really high highs and really low lows, I want you to have a really good think about that. Is that sustainable? But is that okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and the big crashes. They're different to like when I first started dating my partner and you know he'd be working ridiculous hours and I wouldn't get a text message and my little heart would flutter and I'd feel sick to my stomach. I just have to reach out and go. I haven't heard from you. He's like, oh my gosh, I'm sorry I've been working or I'd go. I just would like to hear from you a little bit more. So those being assertive and saying what I need is is very different to being on the roller coaster right like the. Really, I just want to also, yeah, make clear I think a healthy partner can trigger you, but it's it's about how you navigate that together, whereas with the big roller coaster, it's probably you trying to navigate it on your own right. It's. It's not that we're cultivating something together or we're not a team how can a healthy partner trigger you is that?
Speaker 2:is that what you're talking about with the? Yeah, I think totally can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you, you know like they're preoccupied or they've got a big work deadline or they're in their own world. And you know I used to get you know I'd met this person, he was great and I was so excited and then, you know, we'd establish this beautiful rhythm and I was hearing from him every morning and then the morning that I did it, well, little Phoebe would panic inside of me. She's just like it's not okay. Yeah, and that's very different. That was me having to work on myself and soothe my anxiety and be a good communicator. It didn't mean the relationship was wrong and I had to communicate right. And then you know he was very receptive to that which is different to you know, a partner giving you. Then you know he was very receptive to that which is different to you know, a partner giving you, you know, silent treatment for two days. Yeah, exactly, exactly, very different, yeah okay.
Speaker 2:So if someone is, uh, dating, whether they're on the apps or they've met someone, someone asked them out. Let's just talk about um where to go, what to do? Um, is it best? You know there's so many rules, aren't there. When people talk about dating, it's like go in the daytime, don't go at night. Go with these people, look fair enough. Go around with these people. So let someone know where you're going. Um, make it a coffee walk day or something. So if you need to leave and then like I don't know from your perspective, because you're in the thick of all of this, yeah, what? Where are some good places to go on dates?
Speaker 1:um, some of my best days were at the dog park, like I'd bring my dog and I think again, or they'd bring their dog fun, playful, spontaneous sunshine, and also like short and sweet. You know, I think you know your dog, my dog could only be out and about for a little bit. I also like the, the coffee date. I just this you're only starting to meet someone so you want to kind of dip into their world and and dip back out into your own world and and not put so much pressure on it. So I really like the coffee date. Actually, I just think it's and I also, um, I said to someone yesterday, I think it's true, like have a phone call before you meet because, again, like, I think that can just save your energy that's a really good idea yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:What about FaceTime actually then? Have it rather than a phone call, have um, you can do, yeah, even totally, you can do facetime, do phone.
Speaker 1:I just think you know you're investing your time okay, so no dinner straight away.
Speaker 2:It's it's um, I like the idea with the dog park, because then the energy is focused on the dogs too, so it's not just you and the person, it's like there's something else. Exactly, yeah, I really like that. Um, what are some? I'm just trying to think of some other other rules, um, who pays?
Speaker 1:Well, I think Tina's okay. Who pays, well, who pays? I would really love if they paid. I think that says something. I don't know if you've seen there's this beautiful video going around about the man who loves to pay. You know it's his pleasure to pay because she's coming out, yeah. But I mean like that spirit of reciprocity, or I'll get it this time, you get it the next time. But you know, think about how you want to be treated.
Speaker 2:That says something yeah, that goes back to that list and I'm just going to clarify that because the audio might have. We've just, you know, it's a bit windy here, so our audio might have just cut out a little bit. But what Phoebe was saying was that, yeah, I, I think that the guy can pay, like it's okay, you don't have to pay, or just sit back and wait for a minute and see if he says, oh, I'll get this.
Speaker 1:Exactly, you don't have to be. You know, a lot of us just jump in there and say, oh, I'll get half or I'll just wait and see Pause, totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, pause. And say, oh, I'll get half or I'll just wait and see. Pause, totally, yeah, pause. And, as she said right at the beginning of this episode, pause, take your time. We all rush, exactly, rush everything. We rush to meet someone. We all want the love of our life and we want it to happen like the movies.
Speaker 1:Correct, and right now. We all want it right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let's just we've got a few more minutes left, so I want to. So that's dating. Was there anything else you want to talk about dating? Because I want to just quickly talk about relationship counseling before we wrap up. Was there anything that anyone that's single right now listening to this because they've heard that we're talking about dating? Is there anything that you want them to know have hope?
Speaker 1:be yourself, keep at it, believe it exists. Yeah, that's what you want yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Someone said to me, uh, not too long ago, like I love how other people when you've been single for a long time, it's like you've got the biggest cheerleading squad around you that are just. Every time you see them they're like so, have you met someone yet? Or like just your biggest? I don't know. I think the world will implode. Whenever I meet someone, they'll be like oh, my god, I literally think there'll be a bomb that will go off anyway.
Speaker 2:But someone said to me recently, some friend said, uh, a guy said to me you know, barbara, there's a, um, a lid for every pot or something, and I was like, oh yeah, so it's so interesting being on the other end and watching other people's behavior, like I'm totally fine with it, I love it, and I could, scarily, probably be like this for the rest of my life, like it's okay, like I'm okay, it'd be nice. But actually, you know, I'm totally fine and I'm like, and I'm genuinely okay. I'm not just saying like I'm genuinely fine, um, and yeah, it's interesting watching other people feel uncomfortable for me oh yeah, which is probably more their stuff, right like I'm actually okay, and actually my list is like I know what I want and I'm so honed in and I'm not going to um, what's that?
Speaker 2:what's the word? Not substitute. I'm not going to level my lower anything. I know exactly what I want. If it doesn't come, that's okay, but if it does, yeah, I know so so clear, which is great. So, on the other side, I just want to spend a bit of time while I've got you to pick your brains on relationship, um, counseling and why it's so important. You don't need to go to relationship counseling when there's a problem. It's always just and this is what therapy is. A lot of people will come to us when crisis yeah, crisis, or something keeps happening or something big has happened.
Speaker 1:It's like you can come and for other things, it doesn't be good yeah, but maybe you want a little bit more of something, or maybe you want to understand why you do what you do, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:and with, yeah, relationship counseling. Everyone gets in patterns. We all get into ways of we know how to do one thing that's worked for us, but over the years you think about it. When you first meet your husband or your partner, guarantee kids or no kids doesn't matter. You're not the same person because you meet different people. You have different experiences. You change. Yeah, life changes us. Yeah, so how does it from your perspective? Um, how someone doesn't listen to this. There isn't a relationship. How can relationship counseling help someone when there's nothing? Really it's not the crisis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but we're just like you know, we don't feel super connected, we don't feel super close. It can really help just getting compassion and understanding for your partner's world. It often just gives that space in the therapy room where I can learn something about my partner's experience and their inner world, and then I get a bit of compassion and then you know from that more kind of fondness and connection. Yep, or we just figure out oh, we're in this dynamic and this dynamic tends to happen when and if I do something just a little bit different or I say how I feel sooner, then we shift that dynamic right of distance or conflict just can be a handful of sessions or one session. Often people say to me like they come back with a new lens, often what we need a new lens or a new story about what's happening because we're in this negative pattern or story.
Speaker 2:You know we're taking our partner's behavior personally or whatever yeah, and I love that you highlighted that saying what you want to say early, not harboring it not. If you feel something, say it then right in that moment yeah, that's it which can be so hard.
Speaker 1:We have our own fears and it hasn't gone well before, but often that pressure just releases right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. And just again in that therapy room, whether it's yourself or with a partner, that is time where you have no interruptions. You're speaking to someone that doesn't have a hidden agenda Actually, you cannot have a hidden agenda and someone that is there for you in that hour there's no. You're talking about yourself or your relationship and stuff. There is no better time to do it, because you just never have the time, you never have the privacy, you never. I just think it's such a wonderful thing to have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it just helps people stay a bit connected. And then I love it sometimes and they'll go for a coffee date across the road before or after the appointment, right, and so you know, then you bring in these rituals of connection into your relationship. I love it.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love it. Oh, honestly, thank you so much. It's been so wonderful, my pleasure. We're talking about dating mainly today, so if people want to work with you, phoebe, like, where can they find you? Um?
Speaker 1:so I am very busy on Instagram all the time. So at the relationship space or you can go to my website, the relationship space there's lots of um blogs on there about managing dating anxiety. I've got a dating journal which is about noticing those red flags, how you're feeling inside.
Speaker 2:You know, visualizing the dream um, so there's all great resources on there visualizing the dream guides yeah yeah, yeah, visualize my dream and he's a dream, yeah yeah, for sure you add to your dream.
Speaker 1:That's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely thank you, because it's such a world where there's so much bullshit in it, there's so much, so many rules, so many people that um dating is just very confusing for so many.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's coaches out there that say all sorts of things and encourage you to not be yourself. And you know, treat them mean and keep them keen and no, you need to be yourself.
Speaker 2:So many rules right there. It's been a pleasure and, yeah, I look forward to you know, I'm sure we're going to have another podcast at some stage. So it's about dating because it is. It is a world that, um, I think really we can help a lot of people. So, yeah, thank you for being my guest today. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. I hope this conversation has added a value to your self-care journey and inspired positive changes in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, consider sharing it with a friend who might benefit from this episode. Don't forget to subscribe on Spotify or on your favorite podcast platform to stay up to date on future episodes. Your support means the world to me.
Speaker 2:I genuinely love hearing from you, so please take a moment to leave a review. Let me know which part of today's episode resonated with you the most. Your feedback guides the direction of this podcast and I really appreciate each and every single one of you for being a part of this community. To fall in love with yourself is the first secret to happiness. To find out a bit more about the Studio Chat podcast, head over to my Instagram page, studio Chat Podcast, or, if you want to find out a bit more about my counselling private practice, head over to Instagram on self underscore care, underscore studio, or head over to to my website, selfcarebybarbara thompsoncomau. I'm really looking forward to seeing you on the next episode. Until next time, take care of yourselves and keep embracing the journey of self-discovery.
Speaker 1:We'll see you next time.
