Studio Chat
This is where conversations about self care and life happens, to help you to become an expert in your own life when it comes to self love and self care. To trust your gut and have your own back and to strengthen your mind/body connection."To fall in love with yourself is the first secret to happiness".
Studio Chat
Blueprints for Divorce with Rachael Needham
Have you ever found yourself at a crossroads, questioning the very foundation of your relationship and what it means ? Join us for this episode where I sit down with Rachael Needham, a mindset and relationship coach, as she opens up about her transformative journey through divorce.
"I want you to know: it’s okay to get a divorce. I want you to know that you can survive this, even when you feel hopeless and trapped. I want to give you a blueprint to help you make a healthy decision about whether or not to get unmarried.” Rachael Needham.
We share personal stories that highlight the normalisation of feeling trapped in an unhappy marriage and the significance of recognising and breaking unhealthy patterns.
Rachael's Book - Blueprints for Divorce
https://a.co/d/8qXCfWV
Blueprints for Divorce will guide you on a journey of figuring out if divorce is a healthy choice for you. This book will help you recognize unhealthy relationship behaviours, understand divorce and build yourself up while walking through something challenging and heart wrenching. Reframe how you see divorce to look through a lens of love, sacrifice, and redemption.
Instagram: @rachael.on.relationships
Websites:
https://rachaelneedham.com
https://remarkablyluminous.com
Welcome to the Studio Chat podcast, the podcast designed to be your companion in the journey of self-discovery. I'm Barbara Thompson, your host and a dedicated therapist. I'm the founder and owner of Self Care Studio, a private counseling practice With my clients and courses that I create. On this podcast, I'm committed to ensuring that you have the support that you need. I created this podcast as a space for you to feel a sense of connection and a reminder that you're not alone in this thing that we call life, this adventure. This podcast is your weekly reminder to trust yourself, live life authentically and embrace the path that is uniquely yours. Together, we'll explore ways to break free from people pleasing, overthinking, allowing you to claim your time and energy to live life on your terms. You'll be joined by myself as I take you through some episodes or, during the year, I'll have some special self-care experts as guests on my podcast. So, if you're ready to step into a life that's truly for you, join me on this journey. Let's navigate the twists and turns of life together and, more importantly, live your life for you. So thank you so much for choosing to spend some time with me today. Let the studio chat begin. Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of the studio chat podcast.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to another episode of the Studio Chat Podcast, and today it's going to be a really great chat. It's about something that I have personally been through and I know my beautiful guest, rachel, has been through it as well. What I'm going to do is just paint a picture for you. So my beautiful guest today, rachel, is a mindset and a relationship coach. She's a business owner, a single parent, a friend and lover of life and God. She's lived in France and that's where she got her master's degree, and she speaks French with her girl boy twins. The three of them love both exploring the world and living on their Midwest farm with their golden doodle, which I've met, the orange cat and, yeah, they're out in Missouri and it is such a pleasure to have you on my podcast today. Thank you, barbara.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad to be here oh we're having a blast.
Speaker 2:We were just speaking off camera before and we've got a lot of things in common. So, for anyone that knows, I'm a New Zealander and I moved to Australia and I live in an area of Australia that you either know it or you don't, and it's just south of Wollongong, and I can't believe that.
Speaker 1:Rachel shared with me that your parents used to live here yeah, my mom lived there with her parents and then my sister lived in Sydney. I didn't even tell you this. She lived in Sydney for a while, so she's visited Wollongong. I visited Wollollongong Like yeah, just wild.
Speaker 2:And they call it the gong obviously, and I hadn't even heard of it until I moved here and I would come to Australia all the time for family holidays, for work trips. So I'm very impressed and I'm very impressed that your son wants to see a real-life Kiwi one day.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, he was actually disappointed on one of our trips. I was doing a small one just to south Missouri and he was so upset and I was like what's the problem? And he said I just wanted to go to New Zealand. He was just ready to go see the Kiwis. I was like, but that costs a little bit more than just going to the south of the state.
Speaker 2:It's on our list, yeah, so today we're going to talk about all things divorce. I think if anyone has clicked on this, you may be currently going through a divorce, thinking about it, or you may be like us that we've got the t-shirt and we've been through it. So, um, I'd love people to know that, listening to this, that you've got a book out which I read last night. It's called blueprints for divorce an act of love, sacrifice and redemption. Beautifully written, really easy to use, and it is a good mix of your story, your insight, but some really helpful tips when you're going through something like that. So I know that you wrote it to help Christian women figure out if divorce is a healthy choice for them.
Speaker 2:I don't have a particular religion that I believe in, but I believe in something. So even me reading that book, I found it so refreshing and helpful. And you talk about that. The divorce was the greatest act of love for yourself and sacrifice that you've ever committed. And today we're going to talk about knowing ourselves fully and learning what healthy relationships look like and don't look like, and normalize divorce, because you know what and this is what you said in your book it's okay that you get a divorce and that you can survive it and, when you feel hopeless and trapped, that your book and what you, the work that you do, gives people like a blueprint to help them make a healthy decision.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not just someday you wake up and go on a divorce, that thought comes from a long comes from a long process. For me I didn't. I we separated. And then it happened. But I never used those words. For me it was it came secondary. It was just like, oh, we're breaking up or we're separating, and for me the divorce came later. But I know for a lot of people the divorce happens straight away. It's like so, um, let's start with the fact that it's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is okay. And I think one of the things that I personally wrestled with was kind of my own morality, like, am I being a bad person? Am I whatever? And then, because of the belief side, the belief in God and the Bible, and like, oh my gosh, this is important to me, but now am I going against that? Am I breaking the rules? Am I sinning?
Speaker 1:And as I dug into it, and of course, fortunately my, my pastors, also my parents at the time, they're still my parents, they're no longer my pastors, to be clear they they were supportive, whatever I chose, they supported me and they weren't like, oh, you have to stay at any cost. And I think that even if you don't have a Christian background, there's often this kind of belief of like you have to stay. But especially in Christian society, a lot of those groups, it's like you have to stay, you have to bleed out, and that's actually not in the Bible, that's actually not biblical. Like when you dig into the scriptures it's like, well, no, there's a way out, but it's so many people just really push that and they make it. It kind of blows my mind because there ends up being this dynamic of, well, the woman has to make it work, and often you, often one person who's already breaking the valves in some shape or capacity, right, and it's like well, why would we stay in that? And I want to. I just want to add to what you said earlier, because I don't. I saw it as the greatest act of love and sacrifice, not only for myself, but also for him. Also for him, because what he needed was someone who loved him enough to let him go be who he wanted to be, without the constraint of a marriage, without that.
Speaker 1:And so for a long time I stayed in the marriage because I was so afraid of how people would treat me. I was so afraid. I felt so. I felt like it was my fault somehow that and he did cheat, but then that wasn't the reason I ended up divorcing, like I forgave him for that and I thought we were working on things like over the years we weren't, I was, but we weren't and that kind of like oh, it takes both of us to make this work and one of us can be given 150%. It's never going to be enough if we're not both doing 100.
Speaker 1:And getting to that place where I was able to be at peace and be like you know what this wasn't? Nothing you did made him treat you this way. Nothing you did made him blah, blah, blah, like did I contribute? Like, yeah, my like. None of us are perfect, right, so we all bring our own problems to any relationship. We just do. But I'm not powerful enough to make you mistreat me Like I can't go inside of you. Because if I could go inside, if I was that powerful, I go inside of you and make you treat me well, right, if I had that much power. But I don't. And so just like adjusting to this, and sometimes that's why I call it getting like, get unmarried, because we have this such a negative stigma around divorce and I know you've read the stuff I open with satire because I'm like yeah, you know everybody's adding divorce to their bucket list because we're so happy we should probably get a divorce.
Speaker 1:We should probably try that out, like that's the next level, like everybody, forget a beach vacation, go get a divorce, that'll be fun. No, and it really is okay. It really really is okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is okay and it's more than okay, and I think sometimes it's the oh, my God, what's everyone going to think, what's everyone going to say? And this whole narrative that we tell ourselves, whether it's financially or we just don't want to be alone, it's easier to stay. What do you say to people that are listening to this now, that are battling with it in their head and they're saying to themselves like you know, 5% of the time it's good and it's just easier to stay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I will say that there are definitely times where it is easier. You're right, it is easier because it doesn't take any effort for you, because you're not going to challenge the status quo Anytime. You challenge the status quo. It's tough, but what you have to decide is am I okay with the light in me being suffocated and being dimmed all the time, or do I want something more? Because if you're okay to never, ever have something more, then okay, yeah, go ahead and stay, and I think you have to each be free to make your own choice.
Speaker 1:But, but when you're looking at it and it does feel easier, it's like okay, but what? What are you actually sacrificing to stay? Like, how much are you sacrificing? And when I think, if you shift that narrative from it's easier to stay to how hard is it, like what is it actually costing? What is the cost? Because a divorce was miserable, it was horrible. Like I didn't like it. I just kind of put my head down. It was like you just got to get through it and it I, it was like a blur, like I look back and it's like how did I even function through that? But I, but now it was like one month out and I thought, oh, I'm getting myself back. I was like, oh, I'm starting to get back to normal, quote, unquote. And then it was like another one month went by and it was like oh, oh, oh, I'm actually better. And then another month.
Speaker 1:And it was like every time. I was like how is it that I'm getting that much better? Like that's how far removed I was from the vibrant person I had been. And of course I'm not going back to being that person. I'm bringing that version of myself into the present, into the person who's now learned and experienced all these hard things. But it's like, okay, but I'm going to blend that and I'm going to slowly open up this paper bag where my light has been hidden and I'm slowly pulling back the parts of the paper that's been crumpled and wadded up around it and as I pull that back, it's like a little more light comes out and a little more light comes out and a little more light comes out. And it's just like it is like a little more light comes out and a little more light comes out and a little more light comes out. And it's just like it's amazing the level of peace that I feel in comparison like literally amazing.
Speaker 1:And um lundy bancroft says in one of his books he said he talks about um for every five years that you're in an abusive, toxic, controlling, manipulative relationship. It takes a minimum of like one year is approximately the estimate. I was so mad when I heard that because I was like it's going to take me years Two years is like because I was married for 10. And now I'm like, oh, I've been out eight and a half and I still I'm like for've been out eight and a half and I still I'm like, for the most part, I feel great. But there's still moments where I'm like, oh, I still be triggered, I'll still have whatever, because I have to interact with him, because I do have kids. So there's minimal interaction there, which sometimes I could live without that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, yeah and that's a whole another episode that you and I can do later on. What about the kids? And about like moving through divorce on the other end, because that's a whole area. Yeah, I'd love to do that, oh, no, the area but I think the thing is is to normalize what it feels like to be in a marriage when you're not happy.
Speaker 2:And speaking from my own, um, I was in a relationship for eight years and married for one. And you know, you just hide everything and you pretend that everything's okay. And look, I really do know it was years and years and years that I was sitting in this and I was so, so lost, broken. Um, I remember every new year's I would cry because he'd be asleep on the couch and I'd look at the fireworks or look what people would be doing and I'd be like crying. I think, yeah, I've got a visual. I've got a? Um, I can see an image still burnt into my brain.
Speaker 2:It was midnight, goodness knows why. I was doing the dishes at that time. Obviously, we didn't have a dishwasher in the house. He was asleep on the couch, turned midnight, I was doing the dishes and I was crying, going okay. So this is my life now and this is far removed. I'm so sure I love to, you know, have fun and have a laugh and be around people, and he had just taken me to a place, and me too, because I didn't recognize it wasn't a healthy relationship. So you know, it's 50 50, but also he really took me to a place that you know I was modeling my parents too and that was the relationship that my parents kind of had and I could have been like my mother, being in a marriage for 21 years and then my dad left her.
Speaker 1:But oh, everything's great and everything's happy and I was just so like I was dead inside yeah, that is when you said that I was like, oh my gosh, I have so many and actually I've blocked a lot of them out. Yeah, but of the memories of even laying down in bed next to him and just crying, like turning away from him because he didn't, I wasn't allowed to touch him, he didn't want, like there was all these kind of weird rules and they weren't that. They weren't rules, but you knew if you did this thing then you would get the backlash. It might just being yelled at you or being pushed away or whatever it happened to be. And this like I'm with with you but I'm not, and I have never felt so alone and so trapped that's what it is.
Speaker 2:I'm with you, but I'm not, and at the same time, being in a marriage and feeling so alone. So alone. That's not okay, guys. That is not what a marriage is, and a marriage should be someone that brings out the best in you, like you do with them.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think it's so easy because we think, oh well, to be a partner, you both have to whatever. So you keep trying harder and you what I found this is what it sounds like, this is what you did keep trying to conform to, whatever it is that would make him happy. So I kept changing this about. So, like I loved I'm. I'm an ambivert, but when I'm with people, I love being with people like I like my human connection. I need some downtime, but I also like love, my people time and we would only get together with friends like my human connection. I need some downtime, but I also like love my people time and we would only get together with friends like once a week. And I remember like longing for that one night, like can't we have this more? And it was no. And then I used to be more like more active, like outside, I love doing sports and stuff like just for fun. Um, and he didn't, but then that kind of like all right, well, I won't go out and do this thing, and it just that kind of slow, dim down of shutting off the things that I loved to try. And I did try like I would.
Speaker 1:When you're in a healthy relationship, you will choose to love the things that your partner loves. A healthy relationship. You will choose to love the things that your partner loves. But what? What happens is when it's unhealthy is when you're choosing to love what they love, but there's no reciprocity. There's no, there's nothing. Them coming back and like saying, oh, I know you love this, let's go do that. Or a really good manipulator will do that, a really really good one, we'll do that on occasion so that you have something to hold on to. And then, when you doubt yourself, they'll be like oh well, I remember I took you to do blah, blah, blah. So then they can start this whole narrative where you're like, oh, my gosh, yeah, you're right, and I know, if you look at the abuse cycles and I'm sure you probably know this much better, barbara, with your skill set, but that love bombing like, oh, they'll be super nice.
Speaker 1:But then you go into this like dry season of, like I'm starving for love, for affection, for connection, for whatever. And the thing I was going to say with all of that is it's easy to come away and feel like I'm a failure, like I'm the one that's failing and you're not. And that's what I want to say to to the listeners wrestling with this and questioning am I the problem, am I the whatever? And it's like, yeah, you do have to deal with your own stuff. Right, you got to deal with you. But if this is happening all the time, it's not you. And if you get a divorce, it doesn't mean you're a failure. In fact it might be. It might be you being successful, like divorce might be success, because that might be what it takes for you to go be yourself and for them to go get to live with the full responsibility of themselves, which you make it really convenient for them to not be responsible, not because you're intentionally doing that, but you're a nice scapegoat, or you can be anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the thing is it's okay when we're with someone that we're not supposed to like all the same stuff, and it's okay that you think about it. When two people come together, you bring a suitcase each, and then what you do is you chuck it in the middle of the room and open it up and all your stuff comes out with both of you. You're two completely different people and you're always going to be, and you're going to change and evolve. Um, yeah, but but also I think the thing is to know that, yeah, there's two people in a relationship. It can't just all fall on one person.
Speaker 1:No, and it takes both of you to make it work. It only takes one to break it, just like any dance, like if you're doing ballroom dancing. Both people have to be actively engaged to make it work?
Speaker 1:And one thing I often think about as a as a kind of a marker for healthy or unhealthy is are they willing to grow with you? So are they doing the work on themselves and then bringing that to the table to say, okay, like we both got our suitcases, but at the same time I'm washing my laundry, I'm dealing with my dirty laundry, are you dealing with yours? Okay, yeah, you can see it, I don't mind like you can see it, be aware it's there, but know that I'm working on it. And then when we come together, we can partner and we can create something together. And when that's not happening, it's like is it, is it a partner?
Speaker 1:is it a marriage?
Speaker 2:yeah, and if you're thinking, if you're with someone, I think, in any kind of relationship, whether it's a marriage or not, if you get glimpses of do I even want to be in this? Should I leave? Or maybe I want to get a divorce? Or when you fight with each other and you use that word, I want you to stop for a moment and think there's something there yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1:if you're thinking about it and I definitely this is something I mentioned in the book because I was like you're not picking up this book because everything's roses and rainbows, it's not Like. If you're thinking about it, I almost guarantee, if you're thinking about it, it's probably probably worse than what you're allowing yourself to admit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and your story is. I mean, it's just so, and I mean I can resonate with it for many reasons, but I love that it really brings to the forefront of what a marriage can look like behind closed doors. And the fact that you said within those, first like your husband when you met him with someone, and then when you married, he kind of changed into someone else husband when you met him with someone and then when you married, he kind of changed into someone else which is really quite common. I think part of it, too, can be the fact that, oh, I've got you now I don't need to try anymore like, oh, we're married now you know, that's that, we're comfortable and and now I can because I always say to people too, the best of anyone that they're ever going to get what's always in the beginning. And there's a reason for that, because if your ex-husband was how he was after you got married, you would never have entertained him.
Speaker 1:No, no, I wouldn't. And yeah, there were multiple times where it would be just like wait a second, like why did you marry me? Like I would be wondering okay, if this is how you felt, then why would you marry me? Like be wondering, like okay, if this is how you felt, then why would you marry me? Like that doesn't even make sense. Like if I had known that that's who you were, I would have said no, like let's not do this.
Speaker 2:For both of our sakes, let's not do this of course, but even the fact that in your book, when, when you knew that he had cheated or he lied about it first and it was interesting I got the feeling of when I was reading it you, you questioned him a few times. He said no, no, no. But something in your gut was like there was a reason why you kept questioning him. And that, ladies, is the reason why we keep questioning, because we know we never believe our intuition, we never believe our gut. And then when you did find out, and then you still stayed, yeah, yeah, I know, sometimes I'm like what?
Speaker 2:but a lot of people can resonate. A lot of people right now, honestly, rachel, can really are with you that you know people will use that. Oh, not every relationship's perfect and not everyone's perfect, and that and. But infidelity, that's a huge one, because we can leave those excuses again when we're too scared to leave. Oh, no one's perfect and and oh, we all mess up. But once I had a friend say this to me ages ago um, you think of a vase once there's a crack in it there's a crack in it, right, so I kind of that is infidelity.
Speaker 2:Once someone's cheated and it's so personal I know everything. I've been through to this point. I've been cheated on multiple times, so I think you know for me, if I ever got wind or knew someone cheated, I would never trust them again.
Speaker 1:It's just me yeah yeah, it's, and it's just me and it's such a betrayal. So it's a physical, it's actually a form of physical abuse, mental and emotional abuse, sexual abuse, and it's like the ultimate F? You, absolute ultimate F? You, because I'm like it should be the most intimate thing between a husband and wife and I'm like all you have to do is say you know what? I don't really want to be with you, I want to go get divorced, like you just said, I don't really want to.
Speaker 1:I want to literally could have done that. Or and then I do have I know people in open relationships and I'm like, if you're being like ethical about it, then you would talk to them Like I would have been like, no, that's fine, I'm not interested in that, let's just get a divorce and you could do whatever it is you want to do. But the lying is the lying, as well as all those other abuses. That's a whole other abuse. It's just, it's very toxic and yeah, it's crazy. It's absolutely wild to me that the people still do it. And yeah, I don't know, like here I am trying to love on him and trying to do all this stuff and it's just like, okay, I don't, yeah, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense but it. And to your point about the people who are wrestling with that, I just want to say you're also not a failure if you give them another chance. Like it's okay to give somebody another chance, but then I would say don't give them another chance, carte blanche. Yeah, give them.
Speaker 1:If you're going to give them another chance, what are some milestones and mile markers you can be watching for? Like, how are you going to know? So there's a difference between regret and remorse and true contrition. So true contrition you could also call full on repentance. Right, like I am sorry I did this. Here are the things I'm doing to change so that I never, ever, repeat this offense. So how are you going to know the difference between the waterworks and the tears that they bring out when they say they're sorry for it, versus you didn't do any, you didn't, you didn't go start seeing a therapist, you didn't start seeing a counselor, you didn't start? Like, how are you going to show me that now you are doing things to try and regain my, my trust and rebuild this connection, even with the, even with the cracks in the vase? Like okay, so maybe I'm going to give you another chance, but I better not find another crack ever again.
Speaker 2:In my line of work as a therapist now, but also I know as an individual myself. Change is hard, change takes time. Change is work. Yes, people do it. My change has taken over six or seven years and when I've healed from a toxic relationship I've been single for seven years and there's a reason why people think you can just heal and move on. But the deep work takes a long. You know it does take a long time. When you said you're yeah, it takes a few years. And I've actually heard with toxic relationships, whatever time and this scares people whatever time you're with someone, you double it and that, oh, that's so.
Speaker 1:That's very different than Lundy Bancroft's like, and I think his was a very like you're looking at a minimum oh, his one, his one is more. I've heard that too, from Five years it's one, it's one year for every five years. A minimum of one year of recovery from an abusive toxic relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've heard as a standard kind of rule or whatever no matter how long you've been dating someone, especially if they're toxic, minimum it's don't online dates, don't anything. Because you really get time to process everything that happened and like regroup yourself because they take so much of us with them and then move forward.
Speaker 1:So yeah, the 12 months is very minimum yeah, and and I would say um to your point of not jumping into the thing so in some of Lindy Bancroft stuff that they said like so some people like they're in toxic relationships and it feels like they just repeat it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you'll see them. Pop to the next one.
Speaker 1:Yep. So the thing what he found is, though or him and whatever research they were doing is like if you take the time to know yourself, to heal and to deal with that, you will not repeat it. So I think that there are a lot of women especially I don't know about men, um but they're afraid, oh, I'm just going to go end up in another relationship like that. If you do the work and you take that time, even though it feels like forever when you're in the midst of it, especially when it feels like I already sacrificed all these years with this person, and now you're saying I have to do all this other work before I can have the thing I want, it's like, yes, unfortunately, that is what we're saying, but it's going to be that much better because you will not repeat what you did.
Speaker 1:You will not do that if you do the work, because you'll recognize the flags. I guarantee you, barbara and I will recognize flags left and right. We'll be like okay, maybe not like I could. You know, they put 10 words on our profile and I guarantee you I'm like well, yeah, okay yeah, yeah, I don't even.
Speaker 2:I don't even personally, I don't even online date.
Speaker 1:I have it, we can have another conversation about that one.
Speaker 2:I've tried it and it's a joke, um, and because I can see right through people and and the thing is, when you're online you can be anyone like I want to meet someone. I want to be able to fully read their body language, check them out and be like are you full of shit or not? And that because toxic relationships are born and I say this to a lot of my clients, a lot of toxic relationships or people that we don't have much in common. I always say to them if they were to walk past you in the street and say good morning, would they catch your eye? Would they? And most of the time people laugh and go. Oh god, no yeah, I do.
Speaker 1:I often do a video chat with them before, like before, I'm like, depending on where they're located, I'll be like, look, we can just do a quick video. I'm like, but then if, if they've already gone past a certain level of screening, like whatever, and I'll be just like, oh, that's easy, there's no whatever. And I'm like, yeah, no, you, they have to have words. If they don't, have I made that joke about 10 words if they don't have, like, enough information on the profile, I'm an auto pass. I don't care how hot you are if you don't talk. If you don't, or the ones that get me, I'll be like communication is important. They'll say something, some bs, like that, and then they have nothing else. And I'm like I don't think you understand what the word communication means. It means using more than one sentence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just don't even have time to write up a good profile and sit on it and do it Like I just don't.
Speaker 1:It takes a lot of honestly.
Speaker 2:But I want to read something. If it's okay with you, can I just share something with my listeners? I want everyone just to be comfy for a little bit. It's a little bit long, but every piece of this is really worthwhile. It's straight from your book and I think a lot of people can resonate with this, because I can. So let me just read this beautiful part of your book.
Speaker 2:I thought about divorce almost every day after the first three months of my marriage. My marriage was so far removed from my expectations in my dating relationship. Often my husband would fall asleep on the living room floor and I'd ask him if he wanted to come up to bed. He'd angrily yell at me, sometimes cussing. His eyes would be open. When he did, I would go to bed on my own, feeling distraught, alone and confused about why he was angry, why this was happening. How could marriage be so lonely? When I was supposed to have married my best friend the next morning, he'd wake up seemingly to not remember the night before and question why I was wary of him and why I hadn't gotten him to come to bed with me. To this day I do not know if that was for show or not. It felt as though he knew he'd yelled at me and wanted to pretend it away. Perhaps he was asleep, with his eyes open and able to form full sentences while yelling at me.
Speaker 2:Most of our conversations felt like arguments, instead of us working together. Each conversation was like a competition. He would take the side of the antagonist, even if we agreed. Only, it wasn't clear to me that we agreed until we'd gone around in circles um so much like that's so beautifully written, but he was not asleep. Yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, but just the fact of that behavior of one minute it's okay, one minute it's not and walking on eggshells and really getting you to question yourself, and that's where that self-blame comes from. That's where, like, oh, I'll just stay and stick it out, I'll just stay and stick it out yeah, yeah, and I kept thinking something would change, something's got to give.
Speaker 1:And then that, of course, was very early on and, um, like, I stopped journaling, I stopped all these things, I stopped doing in my life, because it was just like if you keep doing, you can't be in this relationship and acknowledge some of these problems. And this sense of um, it was, yeah, absolutely, just like. Okay, well, you're supposed to stay married. Yeah, absolutely, just like okay, well, you're supposed to stay married. So I can't get divorced now, like nothing's happened. And there was this idea for me in that in, especially those early, that early time, was like, well, nothing's happened, like nothing's wrong. I mean, something was wrong, but I didn't know about abuse and that kind of behavior. And even as you read it, I'm like, oh yeah, that was gaslighting. But I don't think I even recognized that. And it probably wasn't until later in the marriage where I realized I started keeping. I started keeping like a Google calendar and I just had like a separate calendar and it would just I just put notes in there, just like he said blah, blah, blah, this happened. And it wasn't like I just kept it, very like just, this was the bare minimum facts, because I felt like maybe I was losing my mind a little bit. Now this is years in between those two events. But um, and I started tracking because it was just like, am I losing my mind? And then an argument would come up about whatever had happened. So anytime something would happen, I would just make a note because I'm like I know it's going to come back up, because it always did. And then, like, whenever it came back up, it's like okay, I'm just going to look that up and I would look it up. And I was like no, my memory is accurate because I wrote it down at the time to be sure that I knew what had happened. And it was. It was. It's the crazy making right, it's the making.
Speaker 1:You question your own sanity and your own memory and your own experience and then doubting yourself, which is further disconnecting you from your own intuition. It's further disconnecting you from like you're like this doesn't feel good, but you're making it sound like somehow I'm the problem. And then, when you're a healthy person, you do look inward and you do say to myself oh well, if there's a problem then I will fix it Right. Like I had that in my workplace One time.
Speaker 1:People were complaining about me, about something, and I finally realized I was like I'm not doing anything wrong. They just don't like the fact that my job means I have to do blah, blah, blah and they have to do this thing that they don't want to do. There's nothing wrong, and I think that that happens a lot in marriage, where it's like you're not actually doing anything wrong, there's nothing for you to actually fix, but they will do things and the conversation will make you have this sense of I'm doing something wrong, there's something I have to fix, something's wrong with me. And then you're further adding to that by thinking well, there there's something wrong with, because now I'm thinking about divorce and it's like, yeah, no, listen, listen to those thoughts and also, um, I don't know anyone that goes, any healthy person that goes, I'm gonna get a divorce.
Speaker 2:See you bye. Like you sit on it and you sure think about it. And and one thing, I'd like anyone listening to this that may be in that place right now. Look at the words that your partner or husband or spouse uses, how they talk to you. Do they say you're crazy? Do they say you're dumb? Do they say you're the one with the problem? Do they say, um, like really hurtful things. Yeah, none of that is okay. And the fact that I really, really want you to write those down and I want you just to sit with it and be like what?
Speaker 2:would I say to a friend Is this actually okay? Because once we break it down this stuff normally happens in a marriage for a long time and then it kind of becomes normal. You actually don't realize you can be making a cup of coffee and do something wrong and they can get shitty at you for making it the wrong way yeah, what has the right, what's the right way, you and I right now would actually kick them out and go piss off.
Speaker 1:See ya like yeah if you're not going to make it yourself and you're going to complain to me how I'm making it, then no, thank you.
Speaker 2:But a healthy person be like, oh hey, look, I'll make it myself, or those words would never leave someone's mouth. And it's not excusing anyone. Don't ever go. No one's perfect. The fact that everyone deserves respect, everyone deserves to be treated with kindness, whether you love someone or not, that's like a basic human right. The fact that you're married you can be married to someone that kind of says that venom at you. Even heated arguments, it's still the same. Don't dismiss it. And then if you feel alone, that's not okay either. That's a real thing in marriage. It's such a real thing to be like. And then everyone looks outward at everyone else.
Speaker 1:Oh, just because someone's married and they've got the picket fence or they've got the kids it could something else can be going on, very different, like I realized people were like, oh, it was such a shock when I got divorced and it was like that's because I didn't tell anybody all the problems, because I kept trying to cover it over, because, like all these good, wonderful reasons why I tried to whatever but they didn't help. And I look back and I'm like what if you'd been more open and more honest about some of that and let more people in? And I mean screen the people you let in, screen the people that you're sharing these things with, make sure that they understand abuse and gaslighting, and like they need to understand some of those things, because if they don't, or if they don't understand those but they say, look, I don't understand all of this, but I'm for you and I'm with you, what do I need to learn to support you? Like those people, let them in, right, those people who can come in alongside you. And also to your point about like recognizing that, like disrespect is the most basic form of abuse in my opinion, because someone who respects you doesn't say all these things to you, they don't put you down, they're like oh, you burned the dinner again. There's not this, there's this instead and and we get it.
Speaker 1:Like you said, we all have bad days, yeah, but they're like 95 of the time. The response should be I'm so sorry, honey, how can I help you with dinner? Do you need me to go buy something like, oh, I'm sorry, and you know I shouldn't even ask you to make my own coffee. I know how particular I am. I'm going to make it. Do you want one as well? Like totally different, right, it's not that different, but it is that different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's huge. That is huge. And just check in with yourself Am I happy, do I feel good and do I feel connected to someone? If you don't, we've got one life, um, and a lot of it. A lot of us hold back. I'm really believe one of the main, the main reason is what other people are going to think.
Speaker 1:Yes, I absolutely, and it's like, but they're not going to live your life and to that point of, am I happy? I put a bunch of questions in the book because I'm aware that there's a good chance you don't know if you're happy and you may not be able to tell. You may not be able to tell because you're so used to living with the things you've been living with that your compass is off. There's another magnet pulling that and you may not be able to detect the things the way that you did, because you've gotten so used to tolerating certain behaviors and treatments that what feels good or healthy or happy is five notches below what you would have tolerated, however, many years ago. But it's a notch or two above the norm, what you're usually experiencing with this person.
Speaker 1:And I definitely recommend, if you can, get a few days away, if you can and I know that's hard, especially if you're a parent and if you've got kids and you're in that kind of relationship you're probably already single, parenting already, and so then that makes it extra hard because then you're trying to protect your kids but engage some friends you trust and see if they'll help you and maybe they, maybe the your friends, go with you and they just help watch the kids while you've got them, and but something, anything in your day where you can begin to make that space to be able to ask those questions Am I happy? What does happy look like? What is where's my light? What are the things I love? Am I doing any of those things?
Speaker 2:And what life are we working towards? Are we on a common goal? Are we both checking in with each other all the time, wanting the same things? But one thing too, as we start wrapping up, is when you talk to people and share with people it could be work colleagues, it could be girlfriends, it could be whatever sometimes people, without knowing, enable the behavior. So if they don't recognize what a healthy relationship is, I think sometimes people can give people the advice or like, if you know your friend is being mistreated, I want you to speak up and go. It's not okay. Yeah, and I don't want to get involved.
Speaker 2:No, just say oh, very gently and just say, oh, I'm wondering. Like just kind of put it as a question, don't tell them what to do, but just go. Oh, I'm wondering, like, how does that feel? How often does that feel? And just keep asking heaps of questions about what they're telling you and they will work it out themselves. But don't just sit there and go, okay, and then go back to your husband or and go oh gosh, um, sally just told me that this is happening. Oh, that's, that's bad, isn't it? And then you're not speaking up. Like what kind of friend are you if you're not speaking up?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and it. I definitely had experiences where I had shared with somebody that I thought he was cheating before I knew for sure. And they just dismissed it and they're like, oh, he wouldn't do that. And I latched onto those words because I was so hopeful that you're right, he wouldn't, because that's what I was already hoping. But it was just like, oh gosh, yeah, if somebody had said oh Rachel, I'm so sorry, let me see if I know anybody who has dealt with this before, like you could go out and be like, hey, you know what, I've never experienced that. But let me see if I know of a book or a friend or a counselor that you could talk, you know what, like I've heard of Barbara or listen to this podcast. It's not going to cost anything to listen to the podcast.
Speaker 2:No, no, or google things or just sit with things. We don't, like you said, just quiet and sit with things, because most people in this situation don't want to get quiet, because you know the answer in your gut. You know the answer already. Don't need Rachel Marais to tell you what to do.
Speaker 1:Don't, and I would also add to that abusers thrive on drama. So toxic people thrive on drama because when there's drama, who are you focusing on them? Not you. You don't look at you. Your entire conversation will be about them and what they're doing, and even if it's all their problems and all the horrible things they're doing, everything you're talking about is them. It's not talking about any things that you love that fill you up. None of those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but in all seriousness, if you are looking at leaving a relationship and it is toxic or abusive, that is the most dangerous time to leave too. So I understand that and you make sure that you have everyone around you and you make sure you put things into place that you need to go to and talk to people and that's what people are there for and you can't do it alone in that circumstance. So I'm very aware of that and I'm also aware of how hard it is to leave. And then, after you leave, there is a little normal part where your brain because it's a tricky little bugger likes to romanticize.
Speaker 2:So most of the time we with toxic people, we fall in love with the idea of them and then it trips up, then it gives us another punch in the face and we leave them, leave divorce, whatever and this can last, you know, years of oh, maybe they're a good guy and maybe I should have stayed or whatever. That haunts you. You really need to work on that, because it does swing around and you scratch your head going, even when you know that you did the right thing. Your brain will go oh, but remember that time you guys like walked across the pier and had an ice cream. Oh, it was so random. You sit there going shut up brain ice cream.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was so rambling. You sit there going shut up brain. Yeah, I did not have that and I think it was probably because I stayed so long in the marriage and then when I decided, I was like I'm done, we're already done. You've had all these years to try and you're not. He's not necessarily a bad person, but you're not choosing to be the person you said you were going to be.
Speaker 2:That's what it is, and you know what, guys. It's okay because there's so many billions of other choosing to be the person you said you were going to be. That's what it is, and you know what, guys. It's okay Because there's so many billions of other people on the earth, and if you're not with anyone, it's okay.
Speaker 1:I would rather be single.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, I could be like this for the rest of my life. Yeah, this is awesome. I love it so much. I can't tell you how amazing my life is. It is so good.
Speaker 1:The thought of like having to like worry about someone else is like well and be less than if you have to be less than if you have to be less than to be with somebody. No, thank you. Yeah, no thank you. If I can be fully me and you can be fully you and you're going to own all of you and your stuff and I can own me and myself, then maybe we could talk.
Speaker 2:But it's been such a pleasure speaking to you today and we and we are going to talk again, because I really want to dive into the process of when, like so this is the kind of intro part getting to know you, my listeners, getting to know you and your story and your book. I'd love to have you to come back to go okay, the day you decided to divorce and what that looks like and all that kind of stuff, because I think we need to do harder on this. We can't just yeah, that's great, I love it.
Speaker 1:I would be honored awesome.
Speaker 2:So what I'll do is in the show notes, I will link the your book on Amazon and stuff so people can read it. So it'll be in the show notes and then I'll have your Instagram on there, um, and your website, um. And where's the best place for people if they're listening to this and they want to connect with you and she put the thought of the book or ask you any questions or anything where is probably the best place for them to contact you?
Speaker 1:yeah, so rachelneedhamcom. It's rachel, r-a-c-h-a-e-l, needham, n-e-e-d-h-a-mcom. That's my site. And then my business is with my sister. It's remarkably luminouscom, which I'm not going to try and spell. I used every vowel. But reach out to me on my site. That's fine and I love. I love hearing from people, I love connecting, and the book I really wrote as a choose your own adventure, kind of like equip you and then, but make your own decision. Make the decision that's healthy for you. I'm not pushing you in one way or another but make the decision that's healthy for you and let yourself sit, exactly like you said Barbara, sit in that space and listening to yourself and knowing yourself, which is really hard and scary, especially if you've been busy serving somebody else all this time. But you're worth it.
Speaker 2:I guarantee that you know the decision way earlier, before you ever make it. If you sit and listen to this right now, you know the decision way earlier, before you ever make it.
Speaker 1:If you sit and listen to this right now, you know what you need to do yeah, and sometimes you just need a little bit of that help to come alongside whether that's my book or barbara meeting with barbara, whatever it is, but to know that it's actually okay. It is okay for you to do this and you choosing to be the healthiest, best version of yourself brings more life. And I have said in the book a few times, it's like divorce doesn't have to be the end, like if that person goes and changes and becomes somebody completely different and you want to give them a chance. Years down the road you can. I'm not necessarily promoting that because they better.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know how they're going to prove it to you people don't change very rarely, but that's okay. I know, I know one, I know one who did, and they remarried. They did remarry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know, I just one, but one, that's one yeah, you know, honestly, it's not easy, it's very difficult, um, and that's why you've got myself and rachel to talk to and we've been through it and and um, happy to help in any way that we can, because I wouldn't and I'm sure you would say this too I am not the person. Oh my god, I could easily be like my parents and still be with my ex-husband today. Sometimes I even forget and I've still got his last name, by the way, because I was just lazy and I couldn't, and everything had changed and it cost a lot of money. So I'm reminded by him, but I'm not, but I forget. I have his last name and I forget that I've been married. And then, when I think back, I got married in 2010, so you know it was a while ago, but it wasn't but I just completely forget that whole like you say that chapter of my mind like and, but I forget that I've been divorced.
Speaker 2:I'm like oh yeah because you create.
Speaker 1:You're creating your life now. You're creating this life now and I totally get that like our old wedding anniversary or my diverse versa rarity I don't know how to say that when I got divorced anniversary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, listen to us hard to merge that together. Um, and it'll be like, oh, oh yeah, that just passed and I was like that was last week. Oh, and it'll be like, oh, oh yeah, that just passed and I was like that was last week. Oh, and it'll be like this small memory and like, but, but it's not consuming my thoughts, whereas he consumed all of my thoughts all the time, all my energy, and I OK, we can. I know we're wrapping up, but this, this plant story, is good.
Speaker 1:I had this plant that I lived in France when I was married for a year and somebody had plants up and their cats had destroyed it, so it's like barely hanging on, and I kept it alive. We came back and then we were married for like. However, two more years after we got back from France, Um, and he moved out and within three months I noticed this plant was like sprouting, like the leaves were growing and it looked barely alive for years, literally years, and it was because I now had that much energy to care for this plant and it didn't need that much care. It did not need much care. You water it like maybe once a month, and all of a sudden it's growing and I'm like, oh, that's how much of my energy consumed that a plant that basically needs almost nothing was barely surviving well, that's pretty proud, hey, if that's not a sign, yeah, my god, what was that?
Speaker 2:yeah, like, look, open your eyes, look at the plant. I'm trying to give you a message. Yeah, yeah exactly so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But on the date thing, I only remember my um, and especially us females, we remember dates. I only remember my wedding date, and it's because I'm laughing, because you know, sometimes when you pick dates, I picked the stakes. I was like, oh, that's a cool day, that'd be cool. And if anyone listening, if you're interested, was, uh, 2010, 2010, so 20th October 2010, it doesn't mean anything, it's just the date. But I'm just saying that for me. I was like, oh, that'd be cool. And then, a year later, I left him. I was like, oh, that'd be cool. So, um, I forget in October, I forget, I don't think about it on the dark, it's completely washed my mind only when I have conversations like this. So I was like, oh, yeah, but I when October comes off, yeah, yeah, you're not thinking about it because because your energy is out and other wonderful, beautiful things yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for such a a great conversation and I can't believe that we're kind of interconnected from so many thousands and thousands of miles away you're in. Missouri on a farm and I just want to come visit and I just think it sounds so cool.
Speaker 1:Do it, do it. We're here. I'll meet the dog in the cat. Yeah, I will.
Speaker 2:I've met the dog, but thank you so much for your time and we will have you back. So anyone listening to this we will have Rachel back at a later date to talk about. Okay, I've made the decision to divorce. What next, and what does that look like, especially with children as well? So we will do a part two to this as well.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Barbara, it's been a pleasure thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. I hope this conversation has added a value to your self-care journey and inspired positive changes in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, consider sharing it with a friend who might benefit from this episode. Don't forget to subscribe on Spotify or on your favorite podcast platform to stay up to date on future episodes. Your support means the world to me. I genuinely love hearing from you, so please take a moment to leave a review. Let me know which part of today's episode resonated with you the most. Your feedback guides the direction of this podcast and I really appreciate each and every single one of you for being a part of this community.
Speaker 2:To fall in love with yourself is the first secret to happiness. To find out a bit more about the Studio Chat podcast, head over to my Instagram page, studio Chat Podcast. Or if you want to find out a bit more about my counselling private practice, head over to Instagram on self underscore care underscore studio. Or head over to my website, selfcarebybarbara thompsoncomau. I'm really looking forward to seeing you on the next episode. Until next time, take care of yourselves and keep embracing the journey of self-discovery.
Speaker 2:We'll see you next time.
