The Barbara Thompson Podcast
A space for honest conversations about relationships, identity, healing and being human.
Hosted by therapist Barbara Thompson, this podcast explores the emotional patterns, conditioning, self doubt, anxiety, overthinking and relationship dynamics that shape our lives. Through solo episodes and conversations with experts and inspiring guests, Barbara shares practical insights, honest reflections and thought provoking discussions to help you better understand yourself, your relationships and the way you move through the world.
If you’re ready for deeper conversations, self awareness, and honest truths this podcast is worth a listen.
The Barbara Thompson Podcast
PTSD, Red Flags & Coercive Control with Former Detective Jason Blackbourn
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
I sit down with former detective, husband and dad Jason Blackbourn for a raw, incredibly human conversation about what happens when you've spent years witnessing trauma, studying human behaviour and operating in environments where being alert to danger is part of the job. This isn't just a conversation about Jason the detective. It's about Jason the human being when the uniform came off.
Jason speaks openly about his own experience of PTSD, anxiety, panic attacks, nightmares, brain fog and living in a constant state of alert and what happened when the pace finally slowed down and his body and mind began processing everything they had carried.
We talk about treatment, medication, asking for help and the particular challenges emergency service workers can face when the culture around them has historically rewarded being strong, getting on with the job and keeping things to yourself.
Then the conversation shifts....
We talk about domestic violence, coercive control, stalking, manipulation, jealousy, isolation, monitoring, financial control and the behaviours that can begin long before physical violence ever occurs. Jason explains why investigators don't necessarily look at one isolated incident they look for patterns.
I also share some of my own lived experience of domestic violence in this episode, alongside what I now see from the other chair as a therapist.
We talk about why intelligent, capable people can still miss red flags. Why we people please. Why we rationalise behaviour. Why we doubt ourselves. Why leaving isn't always simple. Why someone's reaction when they begin losing control can be an incredibly important time to think about safety.
Welcome And Why This Chat Matters
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Barbara Thompson Podcast. I'm your host, Barbara, and it's really nice to have you here. Thank you so much for joining me. I've been really looking forward to today's conversation. Every now and then I get to sit across from somebody whose life experience allows us to have a conversation that goes far beyond theory. And today is one of those days. I actually feel really lucky that I get to spend the next hour with my guest, Jason Blackbourne. Jason is a former detective, a husband, a father, and someone who has spent years seeing human behavior from a perspective that most of us thankfully never will. But behind the career and the badge is also a human being. Someone who has experienced trauma, anxiety, and PTSD himself, and who has had to learn what happens when a nervous system that has spent years being trained to notice danger doesn't necessarily know that the danger is past. And that's where I really want to begin today. We're going to split this conversation into two parts. In the first half, I want to talk about Jason, his career, what he witnessed, what repeated exposure to trauma can do to a person. Then we're going somewhere I think is incredibly important, particularly for the woman listening. We're going to talk about human behavior, red flags, coercive control, stalking, jealousy, isolation. And that question I hear constantly as a therapist. Is there something actually wrong or is it just my anxiety? So what we're going to do today is bring two very different worlds together. Jason's investigative experience and my therapeutic experience. And talk about what happens when something simply doesn't feel right. Also, I actually added a bit of my own personal experience. I actually wasn't planning on sharing any of this today. So it just kind of organically came up with us talking to Jason. So I do hope that sharing some of my own experience, very personal experience, helps at least one person out there. Jason is also working on a book. So before we ended the conversation, we had a bit of a chat about that and why he's writing it and what he hopes people will take away from everything that he's lived and he's learned. I really hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Hi, Jason, and welcome to the Barbara Thompson podcast. It's so nice to have you here.
SPEAKER_01Hi, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00And I genuinely feel very lucky to have you on today because I feel like not many of us get to have access to someone like you, that we get to ask questions, we get to really fully understand the scope of someone that has lived the life you've lived. But there's a lot of us out there that have life experience in relationships that I think need your help.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, thanks for that. And thanks for having me on. I'm happy to be here. So I'm now a medically retired detective. So I don't work in the police anymore. I'm trying to keep fairly busy. So I try and you know keep on top of my fitness, my mental health, and that sort of stuff. I started an Instagram page about 14 weeks ago, um, which has kind of blown up a little bit. Just talking about PTSD, feel wellness, a little bit of fitness, and then a lot of domestic violence. It's kind of morphed into this sort of, I guess, a three-lane highway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I'm yeah, I used to surf, don't really do that anymore. And I do boxing with my younger son a bit, and then yeah, just get busy.
SPEAKER_00Nice. So what I'm hearing is a combination of coming out of the job, but you're still really harnessing and taking care of your mind, body, and soul, really. That's what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. I mean, the first year or so when I did go off on PTSD and I left the cops, it was pretty tough. I won't lie. Like I went through some pretty dark times. Um I think with time outside of the job, it's really kind of, you know, I'm on a better path now, keeping on top of myself.
SPEAKER_00And I really want to honor you today. I want to honor you because A, you're in a job that most people do not talk about. You can't talk about with civilians. Most of the time, you don't even bring it home because you want to keep boundaries. So you're in a job that most, oh, let's be honest, 99% of the world will never understand. And how good is it that civilians don't understand the job? But you carry this weight of everything you hear, see, feel, and then you hold on to it. And then also on top of that, I really am a big, I have a lot of male clients and I'm a really big advocate for guys. Yes, I will never understand what it's like to be a guy, but I'm your biggest supporter in hearing what you've got to say and being that supportive person because I think it's very brave.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you. I've actually had it from a few of my old colleagues saying it's quite brave doing it because when you're in the police, it's pretty much frowned upon to talk about stuff, especially like getting out of the cops. There's not many former detectives or even former police officers that really talk about this stuff. Um, when you go out work, it was the case that basically when I'm sick, they go, Oh, he's just sad. So you go off work, and it's really kind of frowned upon. But the more people that I've or the more cops that were my that are my friends that I've spoken to have gone, I'm actually going to the same thing. And then they've sought help and that sort of stuff. So it's um, yeah, that that's kind of the reason behind doing it. I didn't want to do this, but I've seen it help a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00So yeah. And I think also there's something a bit of cathartic or therapeutic about there's a fine line between PTSD and and everything that you've seen and done in your job to talk about it and then your body reliving it every time as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So
Joining The Cops And Changing Fast
SPEAKER_00it's that fine line that we all walk on. But I I I want okay, so take me right back to when you first became a police officer.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00What kind of person were you when you first joined?
SPEAKER_01Oh, good question. I guess I was I was a bit timid, I was shy. I got into the cup the cops because I wanted to help people, which is what everyone says. It's legitimately the case for 99% of cops. You actually you want the adventure and fun, and I'd go license sirens to jobs. Uh, but you also generally actually do want to help people. So yeah, I was timid. I definitely wasn't as assertive as I was towards the end of my career. I guess you you kind of learned to put that police hat on and you kind of change the settings a little bit because you kind of have to.
SPEAKER_00Um, wow. And did you have any idea what you were walking into?
SPEAKER_01I walked into it uh knowing that I'd see stuff, but it really changes your perspective when you walk into those jobs, and it's sometimes it's just job after job, but it really changes your perspective and how you see life and people and relationships that it really changes your whole perception of the world.
SPEAKER_00Was there one point when you were doing the job, especially I guess in those first couple of years in GDs, general GDs? Was there a point where you just kind of reflected and was like, if if you had time to reflect, by the way, um oh god, I've changed because of this job. Was there one point that you can think of that you were like, oh, pre-cops? It's almost like pre-during post.
SPEAKER_01I think probably the biggest thing, I haven't really thought about this, but it would be alcohol consumption. I didn't really drink before I went into the into the cops, but I think probably a year or two into GDs, I just I just noticed my drinking uh that was probably the biggest thing, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I think anyone listening to this, uh, we're gonna have a a lot of different backgrounds and people all around the world listening to this today. Some people in emergency services, some people wanting to get into it, and then some people curious. Oh, I wanna I wanna hear what this guy's got to say, but also people that want to arm themselves with some information. So thank you for just being so honest. You could have easily not have told me. You could have just you could have made something up and gone, I don't know. But I really love your authenticity and the your truth. So I want to honor I'm gonna keep reminding you and honoring you that through this episode because I think it's important that you hear that. Um what do you think the job taught you about human beings that you don't think you could have learned anywhere else?
SPEAKER_01That they're capable of so much evil, but there's also so much good in people as well. So I think people aren't in my in my opinion, people aren't born like evil. Like they don't go down that that path of you know harming people, stealing that sort of thing. I I really believe that they start off life with a clean swag, and then it's always when you investigate like really high-level crimes, you go back and you look at their childhood, and there's always something in their childhood that has happened and they turn into that person over time. It's really that was one of the biggest things I learned.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then because you and I have a crossover, who would think that a detective, a police detective and a therapist has a crossover? So when people come and see me, they come and see me about most of the time, the thing we deal with is the thing we deal with, but then afterwards it's not why they've come and see me. There's actually something that's more it's it's the kind of core wound, or I would say like the the root cause. That's the word I was looking for. And it does come from our childhood. So I actually start working as much as it's so if anyone's been to therapy and on TV programs, they do it all the time. Oh, tell me about your childhood or tell me about your father, your relationship with your father, your mother, and most people roll their eyes and go, Oh god. But if we if we just take that aside for a moment, there's actually you're just sharing what I tell people every day in the in the therapy room that childhood, that first seven years is very crucial to how our brain is wired, the habits, the behaviors, our values, isn't it? And you just saw the other side of that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a really, really interesting crossover because that's it's the first thing you do once you start like say you're looking at a at a homicide, the person that did it is always in that, and it's it's there's so much research into it as well, folks. Always in that first seven to eight years, something's happened and the brain gets rewired and they go down that that path.
SPEAKER_00I had no idea, because excuse my being naive, but it makes sense as a police detective that you would go back. But I I my brain didn't even think that that's where you guys would go to build a case. I just thought the here and now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, now you look at everything, even school records, how were they at school, that sort of thing, and you build up a pattern that you can show. Yeah, it it kind of just it's not direct evidence, but it's circumstantial how they've gone in life will tell you where how they've gotten to that point.
SPEAKER_00Um, that's so interesting. So, one thing that I really want people to understand is that trauma isn't always one enormous event. Absolutely. Yes, it can be on the news, you see a helicopter crash, or you see a home invasion, or you see something. Absolutely, that's a no-brainer. But sometimes it can be exposure after exposure after exposure. And you know, I I think that especially with the work that you do, you would have had exposure, exposure, exposure. And one question I want to ask you is did things become normal at work that absolutely weren't normal outside of work?
SPEAKER_01I think your it's gonna sound bad, but your humor changes.
SPEAKER_02I have heard that a lot, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And some you probably hear this a bit from your police clients. Dark humor they talk about that's yeah, that that is a thing. I think that's that's one of the things like you sit in an office like prior to the job, oh, it's got to be sitting in an office, and you'd never come up with like the most random dark humor jokes. But in a detective, especially in a detective's office, where you're all just sitting there laughing, having a coffee or whatever, it yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no. Well, two things I hear that's happening with your colleagues. The dark humor actually we use humor to distract or avoid something that's uh quite confronting. Yeah, but also what I'm hearing is the camaraderie, the the having a joke with a mate is actually a really good bonding experience as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot that's happening at that same time. Yeah. Um could you go home and be? I know your boys were little and you joined, so could you be good could you go home and simply just be dad at the end of the day?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I know I feel like I did a good job at that. Kind of stick apart, like going home, I'd try and switch off. Like I really wouldn't really talk about work when I went home to my wife or to the kids or anything like that. I'd really just try and switch off as much as possible and then just go into this other, you know. You got like two hats, I got my police hat on, go home, and then I go home and I'm I'm dead. So I felt like I did a good job with that.
SPEAKER_00Kids might say otherwise, but all kids doesn't matter what job a parent gave.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_00All kids will say that. Do you think that the uh people closest to
Trauma Exposure And The Drinking Culture
SPEAKER_00you notice the changes of you before you did?
SPEAKER_01Probably. Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, no one really points it out. It's probably the biggest thing, but I'd say that Yeah, is the pattern of how you talk and that sort of stuff definitely definitely changes. And I started I don't really talk about this too much, but I start having panic attacks. So when I talk, um like I I develop like a panic disorder. So I think my wife definitely saw that. I I went on medication pretty much straight away, and um that was fine, but yeah, that that definitely was something she noticed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I if I could kind of hug you right now, I I would because I feel like that is such a beautiful thing to share, and that can't this can't be easy to share. And and I also there's a mentality of being a cop. Is it okay that I say cop and I don't say police? I'm not gonna offend anything.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no.
SPEAKER_00I don't know what the rules are in Australia, so I want to get it. Okay, cool. So was it ever a mentality of I'm a cop and I should be able to handle this?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where the drinking kind of comes in. Because one of the biggest ways to mask anxiety is to drink and it goes away. So I think that's where the drinking came in is and that and then you know, you for panic attacks the next day after you have a bit of night, you're shaky and you're, you know, and then you've you've got to talk and that sort of stuff. So I think it kind of just kind of spiraled a little bit.
SPEAKER_00But when I was in my twenties, early 20s, my best friend was a police officer, and then she met her partner at work. So he came and lived with us. Then all of a sudden, our house would be the flat. That after everyone would have a night shift, they come around to our house and do a jug session. And it's interesting, I lived with all these people for two or three years. Great. When I needed to be picked up from the pub, one of the boys, you know, it was a blue and white taxi. Yeah, but what I noticed was the culture of how heavy those night shifts were back to back to back. Then they'd come over. And I remember waking up going to work or to the gym and they'd be out at the back, hey Bubs. I'd be like, hey, and they would just be drinking copious, there's no shame here, but like just copious amounts of alcohol, probably for 24 hours, they'd have a bender, and then they would all leave the flat. And I noticed that uh every night shift swing, and I would just, I mean, we're all in our early 20s, so that's you know, not no one was really tied down at the same time. But yeah, and you can handle it too. But also, I just noticed back then. Now looking back, I think, gosh, I wonder how that made the job that little bit harder.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean alcohol into the chat because actually alcohol actually breeds anxiety. So a lot of people say, as a therapist, oh, I have to drink Barbara because it calms me and it helps me sleep. And I'm like, it actually does the opposite.
SPEAKER_01Yep, absolutely. And a lot of people don't realize that. Yeah, and especially the next day, if you you know, you have however much you have that night. The next day, the alcohol actually when you withdraw from it, you get shaky, you get you know sweaty, or you can't you have a brain fog, you can't think, and your heart rate just goes up because you're in a withdrawal state.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And and and so something I want to bring across from the therapy to what you were doing is a lot of people I hear, oh, a lot of people have it more worse than me. A lot of people have it more worse than me. So, did you ever minimize your own experience because of what you'd seen other people go through?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. And I these days I look at it now and I go, anyone can have any form of trauma. You don't have to be in the cops, you don't have to see somebody get murdered or anything like that. Trauma can come from anything, and that's really what I've learned. But yeah, I I definitely did minimize because I didn't understand that. I would be like, oh like this, you know, sergeant who's been in the job for 30 years has seen so much more than me. He's he seems fine.
SPEAKER_00But is he my other question?
SPEAKER_01They're not fine, yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, no one's okay, but no one talks about it.
SPEAKER_01No one talks about it, exactly. I remember when I went off, I went to the pub with one of my mates, and he was he was a GD supervisor, and he was sitting there going, I was talking to him about panic attacks, and he was like at first. I didn't know what that was. And it was like the the other sergeant, she got two sergeants supervising, one and someone else had sergeant, and he his other sergeant would know that it happened, and then so he would do all the talking at morning briefings and that sort of stuff. So it wouldn't happen all the time because panic attacks don't necessarily happen all the time, but he had no idea what was happening. So I was able to sit there and talk to him and go, Yeah, it's it's a panic attack.
SPEAKER_00Like Jason, how did that feel?
SPEAKER_01It felt good like just uh to be able to like this is why I wrote a book on it felt good just to be able to have this lived experience, actually like help someone with it rather than just drink my worries away.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but yeah, I reckon you ought to change that guy's life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he ended up um going off with PGSD a few months later, and we still keep in touch doing a lot better.
SPEAKER_00You're changing lives from a different aspect now, isn't that cool? You change lives like doing what you do, and I have the utmost respect, you know, for your industry and for what you guys do because you have to be very smart to be a police officer. I don't care what anyone tells me, but also you you do the job for us, you keep us safe. And at the end of the day, people forget that you're a human being that puts a uniform on, that puts the life on the line every time they go out. And I just want this to be a podcast, an episode for anyone that's not involved in the police community. Can you just be a little bit kinder to the police? Be a little bit nicer, maybe buy them a coffee, like in America, how everyone's like, Oh, thank you for your service. Yeah, in New Zealand and Australia, can't we just do that? You're not. I reckon you'd make an officer's day. You might get the 1% of someone that looks you up and down is like, oh, but I I think the majority of office would be like, Hey, thank you.
SPEAKER_01I had that, I've only ever had that once in my whole entire career. Uh I was at the shot and the lady's form uniform. She goes, Thank you so much for your service. I was like, Oh, that actually like made my day. It's like, oh yeah, no, you're welcome.
SPEAKER_00Like little kids. Would you ever get like little kids looking at you like, oh, not the ones that you drive past and they do the fingers to you? Because that just I can't believe that kids do that. Because I tell you what, if I ever did that to a cop back in the day, back in the day, yeah. They would have pulled you over and said, excuse me. But now, but it must be quite sweet. Do you ever see like little kids like, wow, that's a police, like a firefighter, a police officer. Did you ever see like little kids more of you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they yeah, they love it. They I I remember actually made the news, I think it was 10 news when I was early on in my career. They did an article on me because a young kid, I finished my shift and I was just standing around in the front of the station. And a young kid, I think he's like four, I think his name is Jasper. Uh, he walked into the police station with his mum and he'd lost his titty bed. And so I went, Oh, okay, I've got a bit of paper and just wrote down, okay, what type of titty bear is it? When was the last time you saw her? Or just all the missing person questions. And I said, Okay, no worries, we'll we'll go try and find it for you. And apparently went home and he's like, Oh, that fellow's so good, love the cops. And then his mum did a Facebook post and going viral. I think it got like 55,000 views or something. So, yeah, so channel 10 actually came and did a an actual segment on it, which was interesting. I actually got a little bit of hate from that in the yeah, you're talking about people not respecting the cops. They're going, Why are you wasting police resources doing that? And my boss ended up heard. To go on and go, he was off duty, like he'd finished his shift, that sort of stuff. So but for 99% of it was good, but it's just getting these keyboard words.
SPEAKER_00Damned if you do and
What PTSD Feels Like Inside
SPEAKER_00damned if you don't when you wear that platform, right?
SPEAKER_01Totally.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, let's talk about PTSD. Not the clinical definition, not what people put into Google. I've got you sitting right in front of me, and I want to know what PTSD is like. And you share whatever you feel comfortable, but what is it like to be inside your body and mind when you when I first went off, it was just off work, it was just constant anxiety.
SPEAKER_01So I remember I was at a local detective's office and it was just job after job, you'd be taking phones all the time, sorry, phone calls all the time. And then I went to state crime and I was in the criminal group squad, which is basically the state's gang squad, and everything slowed down. So I wasn't, I didn't have 34 cases. Everything was just, you know, we were working on one job at a time. And I think when I started to slow down, I really started to notice the anxiety. Like I'd be sitting there and just feel this like just you know, heart hunting, that sort of thing, and get sweaty. And then when I went off, it was like it wasn't it's like it didn't get worse straight away when I went off. But I think the first few months like that nightmares went up, yeah, I would wake up screaming, brain fog, it was always tense, you know, like your your teeth are always grinding, that sort of thing, it was paranoid. I was almost run out run down at the front of my house by a gang member. So I was constantly like looking out the window and that sort of stuff. It was, yeah, it it was.
SPEAKER_00I love how you I need to choose my words better, but it's just the language I'm using. I love that you say that you nearly got run down by a gang member. It's same in the same tone as I would say to you, I took my dog for a walk this morning.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I guess it all just becomes, and all cops will tell you this, it just becomes just talking about, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So what I'm hearing is you when you when everything slowed down for you, everything kind of came up. So everything was kind of kept at bay because you were go, go, go, go, go, come home, can switch off, be a different identity, and just block it. And then obviously, when you had that chance to think, to take a minute is when everything started to come up. And I could imagine being in your shoes. Is there a state of you that just feels like, especially if you had a gang member nearly, you know, get you outside your house? I and as a father, protecting your children and protecting your wife and protecting yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00I'm guessing that you could never completely switch off.
SPEAKER_01No, at that point, I was just uh on alert all the time. So my awareness was just through the roof, like hard to sleep at night. It was it was pretty common, especially towards the end. You're just like constantly, yeah, constantly thinking.
SPEAKER_00That is hard. That is what what helped you?
SPEAKER_01First bit, I think going on medication was the biggest thing. I went on the antidepressant, which brought my panic attacks. I think they basically stopped at that point. And then I went on actually probably the biggest thing that helped actually, I went to a mental health facility for veterans and emergency services called C. John of God at Richmond. And sitting there talking to all these cops and veterans just about like everything they've gone through, exact same symptoms, that sort of thing. Like I hated loud noises. So on every door, because the doors would shut and they would make a loud noise. So on every door that had a towel at the top so that the door wouldn't back um and give people fright. So it's just sitting there going, Wow, this is like really good. And then talking to a psychiatrist, psychologist, and going on actual proper medication really helped.
SPEAKER_00Are you really proud of yourself for taking that first step to saying that you weren't doing okay?
SPEAKER_01Um proud. I think it was just I had to, like I was, I just I couldn't face gun work. So it was more just there's nothing I could do. I I had to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But even me asking you now, is there a sense of like I don't know, I'm not letting you hide behind that. That's why I'm that's why I'm asking you that question. Because I know you can say that, but I think you could have just kept going. There are some people out there that just do keep going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think, yeah, if I look back on it, and I've never actually looked back at my wife and gone, I am proud of that, but maybe it's a male thing, I don't know. But yeah, like with this sense of achievement that I've gone through it all, and yeah, for the most part, I'm out there.
SPEAKER_00So like I still I still have issues, but I think I'll give you do you mean to give you a hot tip from a therapist?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, everyone does.
SPEAKER_00Everyone has issues and they never stop. It's called being a human with a human experience, and the more we talk about it, the more that we show who we are, the more we give other people permission to be who they are.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a good thing. Was there anything, anyone, anyone that's listening to this now that is experiencing PTSD or has, you know, rubbed shoulders with it or become is part of their life. What didn't help you?
SPEAKER_01I mean, we've brushed on alcohol and that sort of stuff. The force still has a stigma around it. So when I did go off like I don't know if they're told not to contact you, but the contact from your mates and the in the cops dwindles like so that that definitely didn't help at all. Because you want to talk to people, like you still want a better friend group and that sort of stuff. But and I'm not criticizing them white sweater because that's you know, that's just the culture of you know, they think that they'll trigger you. They're more trying to help you, I guess. Because they don't want to talk to you and trigger you. But yeah, I think I think that and alcohol is the two of the worst things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, isolation for sure. What do you think is one thing that you've had to unlearn since being in a different world now?
SPEAKER_01Since being out. Always been alert and aware, especially when I go. It took me so long just to be able to go to the shops while I was out. Because it was just everything's noisy, loud. I I talk to my therapist, I'd be like, okay, forget to go. We had this thing I had to put my back to a wall at the shops and just look out. These days, like I don't have to have my back to the door when I'm at a cafe or anything like that. I don't like sorry, I I can now have my back to the wall. Sorry, back to a door.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And the reason why if people listening to that, some people might not understand why that's the case. So in your role, especially a lot of emergency service workers in a room, the first thing that you'll do is scope the room. So you'll walk into a room and you will scan it for threats and danger, whether subconsciously or consciously you're doing it, then the second thing you'll do is sit with your front part of your body facing the exit. So you're always, even when you're out with your family, it doesn't stop. And I'm I'm guessing what side of the what side of your body did you wear your gun on, the left or the right?
SPEAKER_02Right, right.
SPEAKER_00I'm guessing that you never hold anything in your right hand still, or can you now?
SPEAKER_01No, I still I do these days. I've tried to unline a lot of uh that policing.
SPEAKER_00There are those small things that really do matter. Like when the kids, Daddy, Daddy, hold my 40 boots and my bottle. I'm probably some cops now that can go, oh, I don't, yeah, I I can't hold anything with that hand because that hand's where my gun sits.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's it's you feel like you're a little bit vulnerable. Like, you know, you've got to carry the groceries and you're like, my right hand's like, you know, that's both my hands are unsecured. A little bit more alert what's around me, what's coming from the side? Well, that sort of thing just could be, yeah. But you can unlearn it over time, you unlearn it. I think you just gotta consciously make that effort to unlearn that behavior.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, for sure. I want to just say thank you for we're gonna move on to the second part of the episode now, but I want to
What Helps And What Makes It Worse
SPEAKER_00say, is there anything else that you want to share about that side of things about the job, PTSD, what you've experienced as a human being through this?
SPEAKER_01I think the biggest takeaway from what I've learned is everyone, and you you said it brilliantly, everyone works through it, everyone has issues, everyone's got some form of mental health struggle. I think talking about it is the biggest thing. Research it like when I went off with the PTSD, there was not there wasn't one book that kind of covered everything, uh, which is why I did research and I wrote a book on what helped me getting through it. But yeah, I think it's just yeah, reaching out, actually talking to someone because everyone's going through it, especially if you're in the cops or emergency services or a nurse, anything like that. Yeah, just reach out.
SPEAKER_00Talking about it, which feels counterproductive, doesn't it? Yeah, you think that talking about it's gonna open things up and and I think that's why a lot of people my observations, my I want to be clear, my observation's got nothing to do with the police, but a lot of people do not talk because it's a form of weakness, but also they're worried that their gun will get taken off them and they'll be put on desk duties. So, why on earth would you tell someone that you're struggling or you've got anxiety because you won't be able to do your job?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right. I'm gonna be stuck in a desk. No wants to be stuck at a desk. I can't.
SPEAKER_00And you might get pleased to be workmates.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I I get it. So go talk to someone in private, go go see a therapist or a fellow workmate that you trust. Is that where you would start if you're someone now that's kind of in the job that you're like, oh, Jason said these things, and he really I feel like he's talking about me. Where would you say for them to go?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it can be difficult to talk to the one inmates that's in the job that is a cop or in emergency services because of that stigma. They might go tell the boss and I'll get my gun taken off me. And if you get your gun taken off you just for context, you can't leave the station. You have to stay in the station.
SPEAKER_02Oh, really? Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would yeah, just pick who you want to talk to wisely, I guess. Um if you want to talk to somebody else who's a cough, talk to family, like you've got you know, parents, that sort of stuff, siblings, or reach out to a therapist like yourself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, okay. That's good to
Domestic Violence Patterns And Early Control
SPEAKER_00know. Okay, so one of the next part is one of the biggest reasons I there's many reasons I wanted to have you here today, but one of them was people sit in my therapy room, aren't detectives. Yeah, so when we're civilians, we're trying to work out people's behavior on our own. It can be very confusing, especially if someone is dangerous. And why does this person make me feel uncomfortable? They're not they might not be bashing the shit out of me, they might not be verbally abusing me. Yeah, it could be coercive, but someone's like in a I think we're gonna really talk about relationships. The second part, like, so I want to borrow your detective brain for this next part of the conversation. Do I have permission to borrow that?
unknownYeah, sure. Sure.
SPEAKER_00Yes, okay. So after years of interviewing people and investigating situations and observing behavior, what did you learn about human beings that the average person, like me, might not recognize?
SPEAKER_01Patterns of behavior is the biggest thing. Domestic violence doesn't happen generally in one go. You've got patterns of behavior that when you investigate, especially a domestic homicide, when you investigate something like that, there's always patterns of behavior that you can see to the lead up to the homicide. That's probably the biggest thing that we look for is the patterns.
SPEAKER_00Can I go out on a limb here and say that the patterns of behavior, especially in domestic violence, are almost from a playbook?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. It's it's when you're like a cop's listening to this, who've got so many domestics, they'll sit there and go, Yeah, it's it's always the same sort of thing. It starts with, you know, the charm factor. They're they're a charm in person. And I people who are overly charming would really annoy me. And you'd go to domestics and the the partner is just so they're just like, oh, you know, how are you? You want to drink? Yeah, and they just try and turn it on. That's that's one of the biggest things. And then it goes from charm to like manipulation, uh, emotional gaslighting, that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_00Then it goes to coercive control, then it starts to spark from the abuse really starts from day one.
SPEAKER_01Oh I would suggest in most cases, yeah. Yeah, uh, but you don't it's not abuse that you can see, it's the patterns of behavior start or that always start from day one. And it's most of the time it starts with child.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Because speaking from a woman's perspective that has been in these, been in a couple of them, I would never have entertained it if I knew where if we knew where this is gonna go, yeah, I would never have gone on that date with that guy. Would never have done it if I knew what was gonna happen. But the red, I hate saying red flags because it annoys me, but it is a term that people use to identify behaviors, but I didn't even know what any of them were until I was 38. So I was a bit of a slow learner in that department and had to learn the hard way, and my life was almost taken. So that's why I'm very passionate about this. That for a strong, I'm very strong and I'm very smart, I'm not stupid, but somehow in this area, my conditioning was men like that were very attractive to me. The 1% that you shouldn't go for.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00Barbara really liked that one percent. Yeah, and just time and time again. It was shit. Yeah, it was really shit, and it ruins your life. Absolutely ruins you. Yeah, uh, so I I I want to kind of I've ridden from my point of view, I've written down some early red flags for people that tend to over-explain that care about me. I just want to bullet point a few words and chuck them at you and just see what you think. Things like excessive jealousy, monitoring you. Oh, babe, I care about you. I want to have this phone app thing so I can watch where you are all the time, being really jealous, but oh, it's because I really love you, or that guy looked at you, or I don't want you wearing that, or you look always commenting about how you look in a bad way. In the beginning, it's like really they lift you up and put you on a pedestal, and over time they will break your physical attributes down, like saying things like, you know, I'd go out with him and be like, he'd be, you're the most beautiful woman in the world to be would be out at a function and he'd turn to me and go, Do you know you're the most ugliest woman in this room? Wow, and you believe it. I I was like, Oh god, am I? And then they start this particular guy would start flirting in front of a woman in front of me and getting phone numbers, and I'd look at him and be in tears. He's like, Shut up, she's way prettier than you. And I'd be just sitting there going, anyone listening to this now would be like, run away. But when you're it's a cycle, I want to be very clear on people, there's nothing wrong with you, it's just there's a cycle that's normal and it's not normal. So, and isolating was a big one. I moved countries, yeah, I was isolated so much that I up to lifted my life from Auckland to Wollongong. So you better believe I was I knew no one, I knew no one in Australia apart from that one person.
SPEAKER_02Wow, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it did me good. It did me good. Thank goodness the police were so amazing to me. So I was very, very lucky.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00Very, very lucky. So I want to hear from your point of view. That's my point of view, a bit of my personal stuff as well. Yep. From your point of view, what does control look like when it's subtle?
SPEAKER_01When it's subtle, it's controlling who you talk to. It's asking where were you today? And the the mind behind a domestic abuser really is they want to control you. So they want to control everything value. And when they lose that control, they don't own essentially. So control is yeah, it's everything from financial control. So I don't want you to work. I'm used to home with the kids, that sort of thing. Here's a here's a card or put money on it every week and controlling what you wear, and it's all the patterns, and it as we'll discuss, it never starts straight away. It's always just well, sorry, it the charm does, but then it just starts to yeah, it just starts as as as you go along, it just starts to get worse and worse and worse. And I think one of the biggest things is that you can be the smartest person in the world, and just that constant pattern shift, pattern shift, pattern shift. Now it's you know, it's gone from who you're talking to, so now it's you know, monitoring who you're talking to, monitoring your phone. It's just I used an analogy on something I posted on Instagram. It's like you've got a drip and you've got a rock, and the constant drip will eventually create a hole. So over time, you might have like the shiniest looking rock and the most intelligent person, that sort of stuff. Over time, that drip will create a hole, and you don't see it's just it's just a pattern of behavior.
Isolation, Projection And The Mask Slips
SPEAKER_00And it is so scary. It is, it is one of the most and I want to share something too that I just had a flashback of when I first moved to Wollongong. I think, I think it was week two of me moving my whole life over, and I went and got my nails done, something simple as that. And the lady actually legitimately was running an hour behind. Had to use Google Maps, didn't I know where I was going, got home, walked in the door, and he got into my face, was drunk, obviously. Was not sorry, not obviously, but he was drunk, and got into my face and was so abusive, so verbally abusive that you're fucking cheating on me. How fucking dare you? I was like, I just walked in the door, I was like, I just got my nails done. And so if someone's listening to this and then have a friend or a family member, a work colleague, when they come at you with something that you just stand there going, what? I I just went and did the groceries, or I just dropped the kids off at school and I haven't replied to you, or I took a bit longer. And that's when I was first introduced to something called projection. So that in that moment, he actually was with three women at the same time. I had just moved over. So I found out that he was like, Oh, who are you sleeping with blah blah? And he made up these three names. And I was like, I actually don't good luck if I was, because I actually don't know anyone in Wollongong. So it's a bit hard for me to cheat on you when I actually don't know anyone. And I got my nails done, but that still wasn't good enough. And from that, that pattern of behavior, that was the beginning of it getting as soon as I moved, they talk about a mask. The mask slipped, and it was really, you know, the next day he cleaned up my whole bank account. He went on a bender and then just woke me up and said, Babe, can you pay for a taxi? And you know, I don't want people to think this just happens to people in their 20s. I was in my late 30s and this guy was in his mid-40s.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00And he was acting like this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I want to just say there's no discrimination with domestic violence or coercive control. You don't have to be in your 20s or 30s, or it strikes at any age.
SPEAKER_01For sure. And and as we discussed it, it crept up, and then it eventually gets to that boiling point where you see it. It's like I like true crime documentaries. I do and don't. But we watched one the other day, I won't name it, but you watch the pattern of he's people probably guess what one it is, but yeah, he's controlling everything she does, monitors her phone, monitors her money, screams at her, uh sexual uh abuse, you know, where he's going, if you don't sleep with me, I'll go sleep with other people, like all that sort of stuff, which is 100% coercive control and it's you know sexual manipulation, that sort of thing. And I'm watching it going, where's a family here? Why isn't anybody stepping in? And when you're in, I think when people are in that environment, they don't see it. It's like they're in the fog and they can't get their head out of the fog to see what's actually happening. But as soon as you start removing yourself and you see it from almost from, you know, it remove yourself out of the fog and then clear the fog and just write down the patterns, you know, do a mind map, write down exactly what's happening, and then you can start to see what's actually happening a lot clearer. Where everyone, well not everyone else, but uh I guess my training, I can go, okay, that's there's something seriously wrong here.
SPEAKER_00With your training, you could turn up to a residence and go, Oh, that guy's a knob, like straight away, right? Yeah, yeah. But when you're in it, you can't see that. Now it's something interesting that you said about writing things down. I am going all over the place, but I'm Just gonna go with where our conversation is going. When the police were called to my house the first time, nothing had happened. So I'm gonna share a bit of personal because I think this is what we're talking about. So no, I got a really that's why I'm big on gut feelings. I broke up with him, I made the mistake because remember, I didn't know anyone, he knew where I lived. He actually helped me move. So he knew where my next place was. He would do drive-bys and email me all the time and message me saying he missed me. He'd go on four or five-day benders. His crux was cocaine and it would go drinking, cocaine, and then gambling. So he kind of would do those and he'd disappear for four or five days. And he would sit outside my door crying, please take me back. I love you, all this kind of stuff. And then it got to the point where I'd walk the dogs at a park and he kept driving past. And he's like, he just kept like hounding me. And I was seeing a therapist at the time, and the therapist said, I don't think this guy's gonna stop, Barbara. I think he said, When's one day one day you meet someone, I think he's not he's gonna make your life quite difficult. And the penny dropped a little bit, and I had a funny feeling in my tummy. Nothing had happened at this stage. Yeah, had a funny feeling, and I promised myself, if he'd if I saw him one more time, I was gonna go to the local police station. And he went, he clockwork, yelled out the window, and then all of a sudden was sending me all these different, I kept blocking him, and he kept sending me all these different emails and kept calling me on a blocked caller ID. And so I went down to local police station. First, by the way, first time I'd ever been in a police station. So that was fun. And I walked in and just the nice guy behind the counter, I just I was a bit nervous and talking to him, and he said, Hold on, and then about three or four other guys came out and they said, He said, start again, repeat your story. And I repeated it, and he goes, Barbara, this is serious. And I no, I don't want to waste your time. I felt really guilty. I was like, No, and he's like, You are alone in this country, you don't know anyone. I don't know if he had a lookup, but he was like, We're
Stalking, Police Reports And Documenting Proof
SPEAKER_00gonna send a car around tonight. And I was like, and we're gonna do a statement, we're gonna help you with this. And I was so embarrassed. He goes, No, no, no, don't what I he goes, I don't want to come to your house and find a body. Yeah, that woke that woke me up. Then what happened was a succession of multiple police calls coming to my house, his behavior escalating, getting worse, him stalking and harassing me even worse. Yeah, to the point of, I mean, I wish I had a time machine. I had the cops at my house. He knocked on the door, and when I cry, my face is all red and blotchy. So the guy and the girl that were in my house, I'll never forget it. The girl goes, Oh, do you want to answer the door? And I was all shaky. And I remember the door opening and him standing there. He was off his chops, looking at the cops, and his face just went Yeah, just yeah, on. Oh my god, babe, what's wrong? And I just stood there and I have learned I'm a freezer, which sucks, right? I just stood there and I wish I could say breath test him and drug test him, and but I I was just like, and the guy's was so awesome. You know what he did? He's like, hey mate, we've just had a burglary next door. Yeah, like um, she's just a bit upset. There was a big burglary, you know, just close the door and close the door. And I remember the cop, I'll never forget him. He looked at me and goes, Is that him? And I went, yeah, and he goes, and like you, he took one look at this bloke and was like, he's a nutrient. And he gave me all these things. And the best thing he said to me was, I want from this moment, Barbara, I want you to start documenting everything.
SPEAKER_01Yes, that's what I tell everyone.
SPEAKER_00I didn't know any of that. Yeah, date, time, place, what happened, everything, no matter how small, any contact, screenshot, everything. So, what that particular cop did for me is he was one of the ones that saved my life because I was documenting everything to the point that it got so bad is when the cops came out, whatever number of time it was, I had all the emails printed out on my breakfast bar and had everything. And the girl did the cop girl cop just walked in and went, ah, yeah, this is enough for an AVO, let's go get him.
SPEAKER_02Nice.
SPEAKER_00And it was and it was so good. But I wanna I want to be that voice for people that are in it because I was that person and document it and don't be afraid to call the police.
SPEAKER_01Like cops would rather have you call for something minor than as you know the cops said quite bluntly to you, don't want to find a body.
SPEAKER_00So that's what he said to me. Yeah, he goes, actually, I don't want you to, I don't want to pick you up off the floor, was what he actually said. And I said, Oh, yeah, well, that could easily happen. And this guy was quite innocent, but he wasn't. That's the thing they hide sheep in wolf's clothing. So that's the thing. Document, write everything down. I was so embarrassed going to the police, and they were all laughing, like in a good way, they were laughing with me because when she looked at me and I was crying, and she goes, What's wrong? She goes, apart from the obvious. And I said, I'm really into I remember crying, going, I'm really intimidated by you. And she was she put her hand on my shoulder and said, You're so sweet, Barbara. And I was like, No, it's just because we don't have guns in New Zealand and I'm just all alone and just having cops at my house for multiple times. I'm really, I'm really not in a good place. Yeah, she just gave me a hug and she said, and then she laughed at me and she goes, Well, guess what we're gonna do now? And I said, What? And she goes, Have you ever done a statement before? And I said, No, and she goes, So went down to the station. They were so kind, so caring. And I know not everyone has that experience, but I want to be of that voice for someone that multiple follow-up calls, everything at the courthouse, they were amazing to me. I want my voice to be heard. Of I could be, I every time I see it's quite triggering a DV, and I had another partner after this, believe it or not, that was worse. So I've had to go through this twice in Australia. So I when I yeah, it's hard when I see the news of people being burnt in cars. That could have been me.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_00100%.
SPEAKER_01And the thing is, the biggest thing is is when they don't have control, that's when it gets bad. So, you know, you might have a stalker and they'll, you know, they'll talk to your family and try and get information, that sort of stuff off of you. They'll try and, you know, turn people against you and that sort of thing. Trying to try to isolate you. But when they lose that control over you, they don't get they realize they don't own you, but they they need to own you, that's when it that's when it gets better. That's when you tie a slash, that's when it comes internal, pretty serious, serious crime.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Thank you for allowing me to share that part too. I think it's really important to share that lived experience is uh I'm good with it now. Done many hours of therapy on that, but I use it as my armor to help other people.
SPEAKER_01I think limped experience is one of the biggest things you can do to help people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. I do want to talk about triangulation. And there's a thing in narcissism called flying monkeys, which when you said earlier that when you're in a relationship that's quite controlling and and you're in a fog, the reason why other people don't jump in a lot of the time is they see a different version on the outside. They see the guy, the guy, like my guy, guys, were very good at projecting to my neighbors and other people that I was struggling to fit in with the move and I was the issue, not him. So they thought that the sun shone out of his ass. Yeah, he was amazing. And all my, you know, some people that knew him in New Zealand thought he was amazing. Um, yeah. So that's what I mean. Other people are brought in, they're called flying monkeys, they will the person that's getting abused, they'll talk to everyone else at, oh, I'm really concerned about Barbara. Oh, she's not, you know, they will paint a story to engage more people, to give them more power.
SPEAKER_01Is that kind of how you're saying that so many times, especially with family members? They'll befriend a family member and then they'll start going, I'm concerned about uh I thought, you know, this is happening, and then they get the family offside with you. Um, and so then you know the family start, you know, are you all right? Like, what like are you mentally okay? Like, what's what's going on with you? Why are you acting like this? And that's that's one of the prettiest ways of controlling you because you take family away, you take friends away. That's and that it could speaks for triangulation, you know. They bring a third person into the into the mix and they feed all this information to the third person, and then the third person all of a sudden doesn't like you, you know, they they move away, they it's it's just a constant cycle. And I honestly think this is probably gonna sound controversial, very controversial, but I honestly think abusers get addicted to abusing. Like a lot of you know, you've got people who are addicted to gambling and that's alcohol and that sort of stuff. I think it's because you see it over and over again, and it's you go to one domestic and you know you'll be there, you know, in a few months. You'll know you'll be back. I I honestly think sometimes they just get addicted to it and they can't stop. And that they'll always be that way because they they want to control you.
SPEAKER_00Yes, but also yeah, and I hear what you're saying, but I think another way is especially with the ones that I was with, can't speak for everyone, but their families tend to enable their bad behavior. So when old mate would piss his money up against a wall, mummy would always give him more money, yeah, or mummy would always save them. Um, so it enables their behavior, and then no one reports them. So I was a big bad wolf because I reported him, and you know, good job, sucked in.
SPEAKER_01That's what yeah, and your family goes, Why'd you leave him? He's such a good guy. Like, and you're like, Well, oh my god, like in my mind map of everything that's happened. Uh was he a good guy? Like, yeah, oh, you're making that up. Like maybe because the guy's so charming. It comes back. First thing I said, charm.
SPEAKER_00He's such a good guy. Oh, yuck. Yeah, I know. Okay, let's just we just got a couple more things I want to ask you while I've got you in front of me. Stalking and unwanted contact. Yeah, a lot of I mean, this happens to guys too. So we I know we're talking about women, but what is something that you could share with um anyone listening today that is could ever come across stalking and unwanted contact? How can they help themselves with something like this?
SPEAKER_01Always
Practical Safety Steps And Red Flag Rapid Fire
SPEAKER_01the first thing is write little down, journal everything. Get cameras, you can get cameras for your car that will actually record when the car's off. Get cameras at your house. Uh you can get you know, motion cameras, that sort of stuff. Just and and if you do send them, document it, save the footage, and just just compile it. And if it starts to get to the point where it's really affecting you, not I shouldn't say really affecting you, but it's changing your behavior and what you do, it's taking away a bit of your freedom. Scan the police.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that's enough with written documentation with video footage. Are you a big believer in I don't know what the law is here? So I hope I'm but if you tell an ex-partner, a partner, I'm broken up with you, I don't want you to contact me anymore, I don't want to see you. And if they don't acknowledge your request and they come to your property, can you get your phone out and record and say verbally, I'm recording you, please get off my property. Is that legal?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. The Surveillance Devices Act basically says you can't film or record anyone without their consent, or sorry, without them knowing about it. But there's also a clause, I forget what section it is, because it's been a while.
SPEAKER_00Uh okay, I'm not testing you for this today.
SPEAKER_01If it's for your protection, yeah, you can. So you can pull out, you can have your phone there and it it laws differ in every state, every country, that sort of thing. So you double check it. But in in our state, there's uh there's a pretty good protection that if it's if it's for your protection, you can film it without denying about it. If you if you pull out a phone and you start recording and you say I'm recording, well, that's fine. No interest there whatsoever.
SPEAKER_00Okay, okay. And that's so helpful because I think a lot of people just I don't know what it is in in me before that police, that lovely police officer said to me, I want you to, he got very, you know, record everything, date everything. I would delete his messages, and now looking back, and I know a lot of women do this, and I don't know why we do that. I don't know. You know what? I I think part of it is there's a part of when they rive rival you up so much when you hear someone say, and I say this to all my clients, when when a woman is described as crazy, again, nine one percent of the population, we're all a little bit crazy. But when there's a woman that, oh, she's crazy, or you date a guy, oh my ex is crazy, that's a red flag. That is, I have been that they they rival you up to the point where I knew this guy was sleeping with. I mean, what kind of person wants to be in a relationship with a guy that's sleeping with three other women? I simply didn't, but I was. And I knew when I called him out and he was like, Barbara, you're crazy. No wonder no one wants to over no one, no one wants to be with you, you're crazy, you're crazy. And so what happens is you get on a bit of a text. I mean, I've done it. You send text, text, text, text, text. And I think part of sometimes being the woman why we would delete those is because we're embarrassed because they make us become someone that we're not. But I think the police understand that side of things too.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, and you're going through the trauma, so your brain doesn't necessarily think the same when you when you're in those situations. So we completely understand if you're yeah, you've gone on a massive rant message after message. That's completely understandable because that's the way the brain's wired to you know get everything out of your head.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I'm glad you said that because I just want to give people that piece. There's no crazy woman, really. You know, they make us feel that way. After all your years of investigative work, what do you think about gut instinct?
SPEAKER_01I think it's big. In the cops, we used to call that the spider sensors. So you go, gut instinct is a big one. And I always go back to the um the there's a old KGB line, which is trust, but verify. So you go, my gut, my gut instinct is saying this is off, trust that gut and then go and verify. Why? Why is it off? Investigate. Because I stuck like doing mind map, write it all down. When you write stuff down, you see it's a lot easier to see the patterns. So yeah, trust trust your gut all the time, every time, but verify as well.
SPEAKER_00That's beautiful. Okay. So we're gonna do a bit of a rapid fire. I wanna have a bit of fun because we're talking about things that are tough. I'm gonna kind of give you a few sentences, like a few dot points, and I want you to tell me whether it's a red flag or something to watch.
unknownOkay. Sure.
SPEAKER_00What if you're in a relationship where someone wants your passwords? Red flag. Wow. Constantly asking where you are. Red flag. Oh, I've given I'm gonna say this one, but I've kind of given it away already. Saying an X was crazy.
SPEAKER_01If they sound about one, context. If they sound about any more than one, red flag.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. Okay. Trying to make you feel guilty for saying no.
SPEAKER_01Massive red flag.
SPEAKER_00What about going through your phone?
SPEAKER_01Uh red flag.
SPEAKER_00What about being rude? Like if he he takes you out for dinner and he's rude to the person that serves you your food.
SPEAKER_01Massive red flag.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Showing up somewhere without him being invited.
SPEAKER_02Red flag.
SPEAKER_00I know there's probably some normal, like pretty, yeah, I can just see your face and you were like, that's a red flag. Getting angry when you spend time with your friends.
SPEAKER_01Red flag.
SPEAKER_00You can see how sometimes on if you're not trained, like how I used to be Wyatt, I'd be like, oh, he really cares about me. Oh, that that last girlfriend, yeah, she probably was crazy. Yeah, I'm normal. Individu, oh, he's going through my phone. That's okay, I've got nothing to hide. We're together, we love each other. You can see how it can be turned the other way.
SPEAKER_01Yep, massively. If they say oh, it's because I I do it because I love you. I you know, I'm showing up to your work because I wanted to make sure you're safe. It is all it's all because they love you, but it's really all because they want to control you. And if they can't control you, they don't own you. It's all about ownership and control.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
Trust But Verify, The Book And Closing Advice
SPEAKER_00So yeah, before we go, let's talk about this book.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You've written a book, tell us about it.
SPEAKER_01So I'm just I'm finishing it off. I've got I've got a published, but I'm finishing it off. Hopefully out. I was gonna say, I'll put it on my Instagram, it'll be out at the end of the year, probably and next uh start of next year. But it's called What I Was Showing You Earlier. And it basically goes when I started my PTSD road, there wasn't one book that really came out that I could just review and go, okay, this is what's going on. And it's not really for it's not necessarily for people with PTSD for anyone with anxiety, self-confidence, that sort of thing. So it's like when I had a panic attack, I had to research what a panic attack was. Like I was on the phone, had a panic attack, and I ended up Googling like had a panic attack on the phone, couldn't talk what what's going on. So it basically compiles all of my PTSD symptoms, and it's yeah, but it's got a bit of a true crime buzz to it as well. Talk about jobs that I went to, that sort of thing. So it's it's if I talk about anxiety, it's like I then put it put it to a job. Like maybe it might be a homicide or you know, a shoot or something like that. Yeah, that's kind of where it's at.
SPEAKER_00That is so cool. That is so I have enjoyed, really selfishly enjoyed our chat today. Like I've enjoyed it myself and hearing your story, and I want to say thank you so much for sharing your story with me and for also sharing your knowledge. And man, I wish I just had you in my in my office that I could just go, hey Jason, what do you think about this? Like what like the knowledge and the scope that you've got that lived experience, yeah, but also you've got the trained experience. Like that is such a bittersweet. And and I, you know, it's so interesting that you and I have so much crossover in that way of dealing with that. And I really wish the law with especially domestic violence could tee them up with local therapists or you know, but the thing is it's a cycle that happens seven times usually, and people either get in or get out, and the majority of people don't get out.
SPEAKER_02Yep, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And I just yeah, I want to thank you for being that voice. And that's why your page has taken off because look at the need, look at the need for the new coercive control, look at the need that the word coercive is starting to become like anxiety, it's starting to become like ADHD. People are like, oh, coercive, what does that mean? Oh, that's not healthy.
SPEAKER_01It's actually getting awareness, which is which is good. It's always a good thing. But yeah, thanks so much for having me. It was a fun chat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, that's good. Is there anything you want to leave the listeners with as we wrap up?
SPEAKER_01No, just I I guess if you are going through a domestic situation, you you you think you might be going through a domestic situation, write it all down, show it to a friend, someone that you trust, even go into a police station and say, This is what I've written out. I don't know what this is. They will tell you.
SPEAKER_00They will. And I think also, what would you say to people that are a little bit scared of the police?
SPEAKER_01Nothing to be scared of, especially walking into a police station. 99% of cops are there to help. And I'm not critical of the police whatsoever. Now, even though I'm out and I probably could be, you know, haven't gone through PGSD in that cycle. Um most of us just genuinely want to help you. Yeah, so reach out.
SPEAKER_00That's so important. Thank you so much, Jason.
SPEAKER_01If you thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00I hope that we cross paths again at some point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I think it's interesting that it's that just that crossover of investigating domestics or you know, that sort of thing. And then the therapist side was such a big crossover, which is I think yeah, that needs to be, I guess, investigated.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I think so. I think there's there's so much in there, and I think there's so much power in if it all boils down to understanding, like I'm a big believer in understanding how we think and who we are and that inner relationship with self.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because if I had an inner relationship with myself or knew who I was or had any self-worth around relationships, so I mean I wouldn't be who I am. Like, I am glad. I'm glad that I'm still here, and I'm glad that I listened to oh shit, I think he's gonna kill me. Like that, that was what came into my head, and I want to honor that and just be that voice for people. And and I was so lucky that I was treated so well by that the services that were put in place for me at that time, you know. That's why I'm still here. Yeah, because you did they did that, look what you're doing, but I can help people, and now I help people, so and now you're helping people from a different aspect too. So we need more people in this world like you, we need people to and men, we need men to talk about this is how I feel, guys, and this is normal. That's why your page is going off because you're authentic, and people are can connect with someone like you. Yeah, the amazing work.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks. I really appreciate it.
