SaaS Stories
SaaS Stories is my not-so-secret quest to learn what it truly takes to succeed in the world of SaaS—and I’m inviting you along for the ride! I have the pleasure of sitting down with brilliant minds and industry trailblazers to explore their journeys, uncovering the secrets behind their growth, the gaps they spotted in the market, and what really drives them.
It’s not all smooth sailing—there are challenges, unexpected turns, and moments of reflection where they share what they’d love to change about their journey. Think of it as a candid, insider’s look into the world of SaaS, with just the right amount of curiosity, empathy, and wit.
Join me as I dive deep, selfishly soak up all the insights, and hopefully share a little inspiration with you along the way—one SaaS story at a time.
SaaS Stories
Breaking the Brieff: Kate Shanahan on Scaling Startups, Founder-Led Sales, and Embracing Discomfort
Kate Shanahan shares her inspiring journey as a co-founder of Brieff, a platform that empowers accounting firms to enhance their advisory services.
The conversation traverses the challenges of market expansion, the importance of building trust with clients, and insights on integrating AI to streamline accounting processes.
Podcast Overview:
• Introduction to Brieff and its mission
• Expansion to the UK market and adapting strategies
• Insights on founder-led sales and personal connections
• Challenges faced by accountants in a competitive landscape
• Importance of delivering client-centric advisory services
• Leveraging AI to enhance operational efficiency
• Advice for aspiring founders and embracing discomfort
• Reflections on the entrepreneurial journey and maintaining optimism
Welcome everybody to another episode of SaaS Stories Today I am very happy to be joined by Kate Shanahan, co-founder of Brief. Welcome, kate, so excited to have you on the show.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you so much, jo, really excited to be here and.
Speaker 1:Kate, you're a local Aussie of late. However, you're traveling at the moment. You're doing a little bit of expansion work for brief. Tell us a little bit about what brief is and you know how are you expanding. What are your plans there?
Speaker 2:yeah sure. So brief, is a b2b sas advisory platform really for accounting firms who are looking to grow their advisory services and really help their small businesses clients reach their goals?
Speaker 1:Amazing. And how long has brief existed? Did you start it in Australia or in the US? And you know how did. Why did you think UK is the next logical, next step?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So for a couple of reasons so we have been. We came up with the idea for brief about two and a half years ago. So my co-founder and I actually met doing our MBAs at Oxford. So we met over in the UK but we started brief in Australia and we spent about a year building the product and it's been in the market for about a year and a half. And the reason why we really are coming over to the UK now to really look at the UK market along with the Australian market is to really make sure, as we continue to build brief, that we build it with the UK kind of accountants in mind as well.
Speaker 2:Our philosophy when building the product is really building alongside our users. I think a lot of founders say this and at some times it can be lip service, but for us it really is kind of the core of what we do and why we do what we do. We really care about this problem immensely and even from when we just had a very small idea, even from when we just had a very small idea, we worked with 16 accounting firms just learning their processes, their workflows, their biggest pain points and built the MVP really alongside them and kind of co-designed it, if you'll say, but really build it alongside them, and then we've just taken that as we continue on, and so for us it was really important to be here as we expand, to really do the same thing alongside some UK firms as well.
Speaker 1:I have so many questions, starting with you know, now that you're in the UK, you're on the ground. Are you seeing any differences that you need to, you know, adjust, like with your marketing and sales strategies? Is it a whole different content that you need to create? Um, how are the audiences different? What are you finding?
Speaker 2:oh my gosh, totally. I mean, I think on the surface and this is it really just goes to show and I think this is probably true for so many different um sectors as well is, on the surface they look the same, and when we were in Australia, we thought, oh, these groups are so similar. This will be kind of a walk in the park and you know we'll do exactly what we did in Australia, but it's really not the case, and there's so many little nuances that make a huge difference. And so, yeah, the content, the messaging that we put out there is very I wouldn't say it's very different, but it's made us think about what we're doing in a very different way.
Speaker 2:The overall feeling towards advisory is also very the world, which is very exciting, and that was a really great benefit of starting Brief. In Australia, especially with the rise of Xero and cloud accounting, cloud adoption is so high within the Australia and New Zealand accounting space, whereas in the UK it's not as high. And so, while it may seem that these two groups are very similar, the way they operate can be very different, and so there are a lot of nuances, which is why I think, being a founder, if you're expanding into a new region. It's really important to be on the ground and learn firsthand.
Speaker 1:And there's really nothing like founder-led sales, which I think is really important. Yeah, absolutely, I really want to take a deep dive actually into what you just said founder-led sales and really, just, you know, expanding into the other markets. First of all, I just want to say I'm quite surprised to hear that normally Australia and New Zealand are like five years behind um the UK and the US, but that's, that's amazing, I think, to hear. Um, yeah, I want to start at the beginning, though. So you originally worked at Goldman Sachs. Um, I want to find out, maybe, how that influenced your journey into, into co-founding brief yeah, totally so.
Speaker 2:Right after university I worked at Goldman Sachs, first in Salt Lake City and Utah and then moved to the New York kind of headquarters and it completely shapes. You know why I decided to do brief how we operate everything about it. I think working on a bank like that is an incredible experience. As a young person. It taught me so many skills, it taught me how to be a professional, it taught me what pressure would feel like and really was an incredible training ground.
Speaker 2:But I knew really early on that working in a huge corporate like that was really not something that I wanted to do long term and that really kind of set the path of wanting to go to business school and then eventually start my own business. It is such an incredible place but it is for a very specific type of person which I think a lot of people can attest to. I don't think I'm the only one that feels that way, but I think when you are working at a place that has such high expectations, you learn how to become a high performer really quickly and that has, like really really set me kind of on my path and is you know, I'm so thankful that I had that experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds like you had some amazing learning experiences maybe some mentors in that space, so you did that in New York. What then brought you to Australia?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm actually a dual citizen between Australia and the US, so my dad's side of the family they're all from Melbourne and I actually had done a year of high school in Australia so I did Timbertop at Geelong.
Speaker 2:Grammar which is like notorious for kind of this outdoor learning program which was super cool. So I had spent a lot of time kind of going back and forth and I was never actually planning on living or settling down in Australia. It just wasn't on my radar until COVID hit. And so my co-founder and I, matt, actually met doing our MBAs at Oxford. But halfway through our MBA COVID hit and us and a bunch of our friends, but we really decided that we wanted to have that in-person experience. There's really I mean, oxford is so magical that having that in-person is so there's nothing quite like it.
Speaker 2:And so we decided halfway through the MBA to defer for 12 months and Australia was really the only country open. So he's from Brisbane. We were able to take like a repatriation flight back to Australia. I got an internship at a private equity firm in Sydney and we kind of waited it out for 12 months until we could go back to our MBA and just really fell in love with Sydney. That's when we kind of came up with a business idea, started kind of mulling over. It was a completely different idea, but that's when the sparks of wanting to start a business um formed and then we went back to our MBA um 12 months later.
Speaker 1:I love that you said it was a completely different idea, but the way you said it it sounded like you know we, because a lot of people when they have an idea, they're very tied to that idea, even if it's going horribly wrong. If they can see it's not working, they're still. No, no, we have to keep trying. So I love that you found a pivot and that you know you now have something amazing. Um, but what were those early aha moments like? What gaps did you see in the market? And also, you know, what challenge did you see your target audience, like accountants, facing? That made you want to create this product.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean it's so interesting kind of how everything happens. I think when you look back it becomes like a really perfect story and it all makes sense. But at the time you know it didn't. As you know, the start like the dots don't always connect. But right, you know, kind of the second half of our MBA, my mom actually in Montana bought a strip club and turned it into a restaurant. So the strip club during COVID went bankrupt. She bought the building, did this whole kind of refurbishment, turned it into a restaurant.
Speaker 2:Right after the mba I went down to help her kind of set that up and then start operating it and realized really quickly, um, how I and she had never started a restaurant before but was like super passionate and really realized really quickly, you know business owners start something based off of passion, don't always have that business acumen. How could you you can't kind of expect someone to, especially if you have a trade to be great at that as well as like how you know running a business right. And so she relied really heavily on her accountant for that strategic advice and I just really saw that relationship, saw how powerful it was and instrumental it really was into her kind of business success with the restaurant and at the same time my co-founder, matt, his brother, who is an electrician, was starting his own electrician business back in Brisbane, and so Matt was really helping him kind of also learn the ropes of how to start a business and really gain that business acumen. And it just allowed us, you know, together we were like doing these very similar things in a very different way and in different places around the world and just thought, you know, it's really really important for business owners to be able to get the support they need in order to grow that business.
Speaker 2:These accountants are doing it time and time again. How can we enable them to be able to deliver more of that advice and help kind of their businesses succeed? They're the perfect person to do it, they understand the numbers and they're able to kind of give that strategic kind of their businesses succeed. They're the perfect person to do it, they understand the numbers and they're able to kind of give that strategic, um kind of advice and guidance. And and that was really the idea for brief, and then we kind of went from there yeah, amazing story.
Speaker 1:You've certainly jumped around and then landed on this, um, amazing idea. So, coming back to to accountants, what, having probably spoken to quite a few of them now, what were the biggest challenges that you see in that line of work for them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest challenge right is that you have tax and compliance, and this is the same whether you're in Australia or the UK. This part of it is really the same, as the only way for these firms to compete is through price, no matter who you go to right, because, black and white, these are rules, and so the only way for these firms to compete against each other is really through price. And then it just means that those services get cheaper and cheaper and we'll see, kind of in the next couple of years, as AI really comes into this field and line of work, that it's just going to make it cheaper and cheaper for these services to be done, which means that you can only compete by having insane volume. And so you're seeing these firms kind of shift and want to really kind of have these client centric services, these value adding services, to really create that niche for their business, to really showcase.
Speaker 2:Hey, this is what we're doing. That sets us apart, that is so different from everyone else. It's our unique value proposition. It's the thing that no other kind of firm can replicate, because everyone is doing advisory in their own way and so it's really them kind of taking that and growing those service offerings just because they're so much more profitable. Growing those service offerings just because they're so much more profitable, they're more rewarding. It attracts younger staff who want to go into the accounting industry and so I think in the next couple of years you're really going to see this kind of line of work within the accounting space really take off and flourish and really be instrumental for all small business owners.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's really tough when you're kind of measured on price and price only you know, I think there's definitely a human element that could help you stand out. So, like you said, a lot of these guys, they're so good with numbers but maybe not necessarily knowing how to tackle client relationships, so what tools or strategies do you recommend that they can pursue in that instance?
Speaker 2:Yeah, in terms of accountants, are you asking about? Yeah, yeah, I think, practice, I think it is really something, and with brief, we really want to enable more accounts to be able to deliver more of this type of advice. The biggest pain points that we really see is that oftentimes this type of service is incredibly ad hoc and unstructured, so they're doing different things for different clients. It's all over the place, it's kept with the senior partner, it's in their head, it's all over the place, it's kept with the senior partner, you know, it's in their head, it's not written down, and so it's really hard for the firm to replicate and so and it's also incredibly difficult to train younger staff to be able to do this, and that's why you'll hear kind of these partners who have 30 years of experience say you know, it took me 30 years to learn how to do this. It's all that experience that is needed and with brief, we're really helping these firms structure and deliver that service offering in such a structured way that can be repeatable throughout the firm and add a lot of transparency and collaboration so that younger, more junior staff members can be able to see kind of how that process is done and be able to help with different aspects, whether that's help prep for meetings or send out those meeting summaries but learn by doing this, not just by shadowing, and also make it so it's much more efficient so that they can service even more clients and it doesn't take as much time to be able to have that kind of session. And so I really say it's practice, it's having those conversations.
Speaker 2:I think the biggest misconceptions is that clients don't want to talk to their accountant. Every small business owner that we chat to always say you know, accounts are the first person I go to when I have a question. They are the one, they're kind of the line of defense, and the accountants then kind of maybe we'll take them to someone else who might be able to answer that question in a more holistic way, but they're really always the first person that they go to and be able I think. Lastly, I think a big misconception about advisory is that it's about the answers and advice that you give, but it's really mostly about the questions that you ask.
Speaker 2:Most business owners know what they should be doing or know the answers, but they need someone to help them, take them from working in the business to working on the business, and it's really those simple questions that help them kind of uncover the answers themselves, along with also learning how to kind of have that financial literacy, which accountants are perfect for doing. So oftentimes it's really mentoring their business owner clients on how to read a P&L, what does a balance sheet mean? How do you really look at cash flow? And those are simple things that accountants think are so simple that most business owners don't know how to do right, depending on kind of what their trade is or what kind of their kind of niches within that business, and so those are invaluable skill sets that accounts can really help give.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I was laughing as you were saying that because I just thought of all the silly questions I've asked my accountant and I'm like, yeah, I have no idea, but he must think that I just I'm asking lots of silly questions. But no, absolutely, I mean, I think it also kind of puts them in that thought leadership space and that education space, because you know, if they're educating their clients or their potential clients, then there's like a trust element there. From a marketing standpoint, we see this working time and time again. If you're out educating your competition, then the clients will come to you because they trust you, they can depend on you and they know they can ask you those silly questions. They don't feel scared to do so. Right, 100%, 100%. Now, coming back to that sales and marketing question, I wanted to do a deep dive into. Let's start with the early days of brief. What were some quick marketing or some really clever marketing campaigns that really helped you scale brief in the early days?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think there is nothing more powerful for us than word of mouth, and I think that you know, I think as founders, we're all going under this like get into this trap where, depending if you're on the VC train or you know you're not, you're bootstrapped or kind of semi bootstrapped. You feel like you have to spend a ton of money in order to build that awareness. And I think that you know personally, I think constraints are the most important thing for a founder. I think, especially in the early days, you want to have really limited resources, really limited cash, for a number of different reasons, but especially in the sales and marketing arm, you want to be able to get creative, do things differently than what's been done before, don't just follow the same playbook, and the only way to follow those same playbooks or those bigger companies is by having a ton of cash. And so if you don't have that, it forces you to think outside the box.
Speaker 2:For us, it was about word of mouth really quickly, and that's really how we continue to grow, and it's really only through word of mouth which makes that our lead generation really really kind of high converting and the trust is already there, and so we really, you know, I think in terms of the early days, when we first kind of built our MVP and had kind of our first believers on that product, we told them all that we were raising kind of an angel round and many, many, many of those kind of first users actually wanted to be our investors and in terms of sale and marketing that was huge for us because they felt like they were even more part of the journey and then they now have skin in the game to kind of help us kind of spread the word, and so that is probably like the biggest thing. That was huge for us. So I would really recommend any founder who you know has kind of first early adopters, let them in your round, especially your pre-seed round, and it doesn't matter the check size, it just doesn't.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting. Actually, I never thought of using your clients as investors, but it makes so much sense because they're invested in the platform. If they're early adopters as well, they're advocates for technology. They'll be coming back to you making really good recommendations on how you can change it, improve it, make it better and then spread the word themselves. From an operations point of view, I always love to ask this what was your first hire and why?
Speaker 2:So in terms of us we actually have it's still my co-founder and I. We had a CTO for a little bit but really for us it's about keeping the team small until we can widely scale. And I think that you know, I guess my kind of hot take on that is I think that startups they hire too quickly and I think that you have to work out and kind of be ripping out the seams and making sure that you're doing things in really different ways. So we've had contractors before through marketing, help with the product and kind of development of the product, but it's really kind of built by my co-founder doing most of the sales and operations. In that kind of regard, customer service and I think until you cannot like your calendar can't take it, your schedule can't take it that's when it's time to hire. We've been able to be so nimble and change so quickly and we wouldn't be able to do that without a team.
Speaker 2:And I think that you know something else which you didn't really ask, but I think it's also kind of an important note is that oftentimes, especially with startups, people judge how big the company is based on the team size and I think that that, you know, is a mistake and I think that, as founders, I think a lot of us can sometimes feel oh, I'm self-conscious that your team is smaller, but you have no idea what some of these companies kind of revenue is. And that's kind of a more question, taboo question to probably ask. And so I would just recommend other founders not feel self-conscious about having smaller teams. This and, for as long as you can, it has nothing to do with um. You know how much revenue you're generating um, and I think that there's kind of a movement now, or more kind of accepted, to kind of go down this bootstrap route versus just kind of DC funding and then hire 25 people.
Speaker 1:I absolutely second that. I think it is a mistake a lot of companies make. They kind of measure their success by the size of their teams. But really I've met so many incredible founders that have a very small team, maybe even just a team less than five, and they're generating amazing revenue. But not just that that they're living a lifestyle business that gives them that work-life balance, which is why they started the business. And you're right, it shouldn't just be about revenue. I think I've had the pleasure of interviewing a few founders on this podcast and a lot of them, the way they talk, you know, it's always about solving a problem that they really wanted to solve and they're very passionate about it. And I think you know, if you have some incredible client stories that can attest to that, then that's that's an amazing goal to have reached oh, 100%.
Speaker 2:I think also, you know, um, in terms of kind of taking that VC funding or not taking that VC funding, we both have like VCs as well as angel investors on our cap table. But I think it's really interesting because I think sometimes there's the misconception of, okay, you have that funding and now you have to like explode. And I think you have that funding and now you have to like explode. And I think you know really trying to stay as constrained as you can for as early as you can until you kind of get you know exactly what lever to pull that will kind of make every dollar you put in equal $2 coming out or whatever kind of analogy that you want to use, and then really grow at this massive rate.
Speaker 2:I think oftentimes startups grow way too early and I think you know there's a lot of reasons for that and it's so hard, like it's so, so hard to try and stay disciplined in that way. And you know you oftentimes second guess yourself and think maybe you're making a mistake, but and and you know, maybe I am, but it's really about. You know you oftentimes second guess yourself and think maybe you're making a mistake, but and you know, maybe I am. But it's really about, you know, kind of having that philosophy and just kind of sticking with it and you know, you know, hopefully it works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do this. I think everyone has their journey. Their story and this is what I'm trying to find out on this podcast is just how did you do it, what was your experience? And just hoping to provide some inspiration to all the people listening. Just coming back to the people question as well, you know, I think it's a lot easier now for startups to not hire because we have AI at our disposal. So how have you found AI? How have you used it? Do you have plans to you know, implement it into your product as well?
Speaker 2:Yep, so we actually AI is implemented in our product already. We use AI every day. So in terms of our product, we've implemented AI. So it's you know part. It's a big proposition, kind of value proposition of our product. You know how we kind of operate as we take qualitative as well as quantitative data from small business owners, use AI to really help prep advisors for those meetings, kind of see those throughputs, kind of see those throughputs generate meeting summaries that they can send out to their clients, as well as kind of actions, and make that more efficient in that way.
Speaker 2:So there's an AI note taker. There's all kind of those elements that I think make AI really great in terms of how we're building the product. I mean we use AI every day to kind of help build code, help check our product. I use it every day in terms of sales and marketing, and so it's really up to the person to be able to use it to your best advantage. I think you know everyone can smell inauthenticity a mile away, right, they know exactly when something's been AI generated, and so really kind of learning how to use that to kind of just enhance every um kind of strength that you have, versus um just using it to kind of replace you yeah, yeah, I have to agree with that.
Speaker 1:There's um really specific words that I've seen, like blogs and social media posts and emails, where I'm like that was AI generated. I just know it. Um personal pet peeve of mine is the word unlock. I think chat GPT's favorite word, but um what is like one task that you absolutely use AI the most for? Um really just to help you in your day-to-day operations and, you know, growing the business yeah.
Speaker 2:So in terms of definitely the product, it would be to write code and also check um for me. I use it all of the time to do so. I personally don't really like to use AI for writing content. That's just my own personal thing. I just I want it to come from my own voice and I also want to become a stronger communicator and I and I feel like I can only do that if I do it myself. But I use it as a way to help me generate ideas for kind of content for LinkedIn posts, outlines. It's really helpful for, and so that's kind of how I use. It is really as a way to brainstorm.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. I definitely went through a period where I was using it quite a bit, to the point where I'm like I think I have forgotten how to write, so I had to go back and stop using it and just kind of retrain myself. So you're right, it's.
Speaker 2:It just becomes a lost skill if you keep using it yeah, it's just, and it just I think you know there's only so much time in the day, right, so you have to kind of put your best foot forward, um, but it's just something that I really want to work on. Um, I think I'm okay, but I want to get better, and it's kind of my 2025 goal is to become even a stronger communicator in every way I possibly can, so I just don't want to shortcut it by having kind of AI write all my content.
Speaker 1:What is one bit of advice that you would give to other founders or people wanting to be founders? Maybe they have an idea in the space. Right now they're working at a company. They see a gap. Maybe they've gone to their boss and said you know, why don't we do this or why don't we do it this way? But their ideas aren't being heard. So they're wanting to start their own business. What's, what's the biggest advice you'd say to them?
Speaker 2:I mean other than do it. Um, I I listen to a lot of podcasts with founders kind of talking it's. I love it so much. I love this type of content, I consume all of it.
Speaker 2:Um, and something that I can sometimes get frustrated by is it's so easy to forget how hard it is and just to talk about the success or just to talk about, like kind of finally getting to the top of the mountain.
Speaker 2:And when you are in the thick of it as a founder, you think, wow, it must not have been as hard for other people. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. Think, wow, it must not have been as hard for other people, maybe I'm doing something wrong. And so I think my biggest advice and I tell myself this every day is that everything, every day, is going to be uncomfortable because you are doing something you've never done before and everyone else is doing that as well, and to just keep going.
Speaker 2:And so when you hear people talk about their startup journeys and maybe they're not highlighting, you know the intense struggle that often comes because there are such lows and such highs. But it's so much easier to focus on the highs and it's so much better, I think, mentally, it's just to remember that you know everyone else was there once as well. And and the pendulum will shift and you just have to will shift and you just have to get out of it time and you have to kind of go through it. But you are not kind of the only one that is going through hard things and you can do it.
Speaker 1:I love that. It's so true, isn't it? It's kind of like the social media illusion where you just think everyone's living their best lives, there's no struggles. You know they're always on holidays. I, I mean, this is what I love about this podcast. One, one question I always ask everyone on the show is like what were your biggest challenges? How did you overcome them? Like, tell me your story. And and people have definitely shared that, yes, there are struggles and yes, it does take a lot of hard work and persistence, certainly takes a certain type of person and personality to keep pushing through, because I know you know me included there's so many days you just want to give up, but then there's always something that keeps driving you. So, um, yeah, absolutely 100. Last question for you. I love asking this one. It's if you had a time machine and you could go back in time to talk to your younger self, maybe at the very beginning of the brief journey, what bit of advice would you give yourself and what might you change that you, um, that you had done?
Speaker 2:I think, you know it's so funny, like when I started brief, I was so naive to kind of this journey, like I just had it in myself, like I just had this feeling like I can do this. This is going to be a walk in the park, just kind of go for it. And you know, obviously it's a roller coaster and so I'm really happy that I had that naiveness, um, or else I don't think I would have started if I really knew how hard it could potentially be, um, and so I think I would really kind of give myself like the advice of just like trying to keep that as long as possible, to kind of have this like insane optimism for as long as I possibly can. And I think I still have that um. But I think you know, just kind of reminding you know, as you have like bumps in the road that it is like a windy, windy road and you know the next success is just around the corner and so you kind of have to always kind of go through kind of hard dips to have these crazy highs.
Speaker 2:So I would say that's probably like my biggest advice to my younger self, I guess, in that way, in terms of things that I would do differently.
Speaker 2:I mean the thing I you know what the thing. I would do so differently if I could kind of go back and I think this is why you know, as I think about it all the time, like second time founders are in such a powerful position, regardless of whether their first startup like succeeded or failed by any metric um is you don't sweat the small stuff. And I would just kind of wish I could go back and the things at the time that I thought were so big and so hard and you know so, whatever, that I really kind of mulled over and stressed over, um, they really didn't end up being that big of a deal. Um, they didn't kind of matter as much as I thought they would, and so I would kind of go and just say kind of not stress about some of those things as they did in the beginning. You know what is the colors and is am I using the right word? And all that kind of stuff that I think we all do when we're doing this for the first time a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I'm still sweating the small stuff but it's definitely an advice that I have to keep repeating in my mind. I love what you said about the advice as well. Yeah, you know the insane optimism. I think as you get more and more successful, you just develop imposter syndrome and you start second guessing yourself. So, yeah, keep reminding yourself about that. Kate that you know decided yeah, I can do this, it's super easy, let's go 100%, 100%.
Speaker 2:You have to keep that as long as you can and, you know, hopefully I still have it, but it's something that I, you know, always want to have, because it's so easy to lose.
Speaker 1:Definitely Hold on to it for as long as possible. Kate, thank you so much for being on the show. I really enjoyed our chat. I love your story. I think there's definitely some inspiration there. I know the listeners would love so. Thank you so much, such a pleasure.
Speaker 2:Likewise, thank you so much for having me.
