SaaS Stories
SaaS Stories is my not-so-secret quest to learn what it truly takes to succeed in the world of SaaS—and I’m inviting you along for the ride! I have the pleasure of sitting down with brilliant minds and industry trailblazers to explore their journeys, uncovering the secrets behind their growth, the gaps they spotted in the market, and what really drives them.
It’s not all smooth sailing—there are challenges, unexpected turns, and moments of reflection where they share what they’d love to change about their journey. Think of it as a candid, insider’s look into the world of SaaS, with just the right amount of curiosity, empathy, and wit.
Join me as I dive deep, selfishly soak up all the insights, and hopefully share a little inspiration with you along the way—one SaaS story at a time.
SaaS Stories
Cracking the C-Suite: How to Sell SaaS at the Enterprise Level
We explore why technical founders often struggle with sales and how shifting from product-focused to people-focused transforms business growth. Matthew Wyatt, founder of Tech Torque shares powerful strategies for building trust and closing enterprise deals.
• Tech founders struggle with sales because they come from a linear, engineering mindset that conflicts with the "soft and spongy" nature of sales psychology
• The best product rarely wins – it's about trust, reach, and communication, similar to why celebrities can successfully launch products
• Effective salespeople get customers talking about their problems rather than dominating conversations with feature dumps
• Consider selling consulting first instead of software to bypass procurement barriers and build trust from inside the organisation
• Replace ineffective free trials and demos with educational content and case studies that build trust before asking for a sale
• Create different messaging for each stakeholder in the buying process – target the actual users first rather than competing for CEO attention
• Give customers specific "jobs" during the sales process to increase their engagement and commitment
• The most transformative moment for tech companies is when they shift from being product-focused to becoming a sales and marketing organisation
If you sell to businesses, stop thinking about B2B and start thinking about H2H – human to human. Businesses don't buy things; people inside those businesses make purchasing decisions based on trust, personal ambition, and emotions.
Why do you think so many SaaS founders and marketers still under-invest in a sales team?
Speaker 2:This is exactly why the Rock got into tequila. I mean, he probably doesn't have a deep love of tequila, it's just because he knew he could take that reach and monetize it.
Speaker 1:And do you think also, maybe you know their first hire in sales as well do you think they might be a little bit misunderstood by the tech founders?
Speaker 2:And then there's no sales culture in the business, there's no lead.
Speaker 1:So the salesperson might be the engine, but marketing is the fuel what are some of the biggest misconceptions that tech founders think makes sales work well?
Speaker 2:so what they do is they go the other way.
Speaker 1:They almost bore the customer into buying what are some things that sales people and founders can do in order to break through it and get their products across and and beat the of IBM and HubSpot and Salesforce?
Speaker 2:You shouldn't be targeting the CEO because they've got a lineup out the door. This is the nightclub line of salespeople. They're up there, they're in the cold, they're freezing, they're hoping the bouncer lets them pass.
Speaker 1:Give us a glimpse in some of the questions.
Speaker 2:How long has it been a problem? How much does that cost you? Have you tried to solve that in the past? And then the last part is why didn't that work?
Speaker 1:Welcome everybody to another episode of SaaS Stories Today. I'm super excited to be joined by local Australian, matthew Wyatt, managing Director at TechTalk. Welcome, matthew.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Excited to chat to you Now. Your background is in sales, Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, my background. Actually, I've owned technology businesses for a long time. Started my first tech business in 1999. So that's a few years ago now, and over that time, always been the salesperson, always loved sailing. That's the area in which I gravitate towards whenever I own a business or a consultable business.
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean, I don't think you can run a business without sales. That's kind of like the first thing. Well, product and sales, I suppose in the world of SaaS. Now you've said that without sales, nothing gets off the ground. As a marketer, I agree with that. I think sales comes before marketing. But why do you think so many SaaS founders and marketers still underinvest in a sales team?
Speaker 2:Because a lot of technology founders are a technology person, and a technology person is typically somebody who's thoughtful. One plus one always equals two, and it's a linear process from idea to creation to delivery of product. One of the great challenges, then, is to go from this hard engineering sort of mindset to the soft and spongy mindset of you know, maybe I'll say this thing in this particular way because we'd all like to believe that the best product wins, and that's never been the case and it is not going to ever be the case. It's a product with the most trust. It's a product with the biggest footprint that most number of people know about it. This is exactly why the Rock got into tequila. I mean, he probably doesn't have a deep love of tequila. It's just because he knew he could take that reach and monetize it with that attention that he's got. So it's the problem that most SaaS founders have is they go from deep work to now having to think about other people and think about how they're going to expand their market in that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and do you think also maybe their first hiring sales as well? Do you think they might be a little bit misunderstood by the tech founders?
Speaker 2:first, hiring sales as well, do you think they might be a little bit misunderstood by the tech founders? Yeah, so I come across this a lot. So my friends who are tech people who have started their first salespeople, they go well, I need more sales, so I'm going to hire a salesperson. And then there's no sales culture in the business, there's no lead. So the salesperson might be the engine, but marketing is the fuel that feeds that engine. And no leads, no marketing. Then the salesperson sitting there might be a V8 engine, might be fantastic, but relying on that person to go out there and build brand, generate leads, create interest, get attention, qualify the lead, then close them. That's a lot of things to do and if you are going to find somebody that can do that, you're going to be paying double the going rate of a regular salesperson just to get that some person that can do both of those disciplines. So that's the big problem. They go salesperson, go get sales, whereas sales and marketing, even though they're said together, they're wildly different disciplines.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. I also come across a lot of founders that believe that the sales has to happen by the founder themselves, and I do agree to that to an extent, but then you kind of stunt your scaling opportunities if that's the only way to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, they might be the most informed person when it comes to the software, because they babysat that thing from idea to delivery. When it comes to the software, because they babysat that thing from idea to delivery, the problem with that is that often your feeds and speeds, your technical brilliance, your ability to connect to this and talk to that, is not actually what the customer wants. I've spoken to many customers who go oh well, my customers want dashboards or they want to collect data. Well, they don't want that. What they want is the outcome of that. It's like the old saying where the hardware guy doesn't sell drills, he sells holes in walls. So what's the outcome you're trying to create? And they get so focused on how great the mousetrap is they forget actually what the result they can produce for their customers are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so true, isn't it? They're kind of more focused on features and what the product does and processes. But really, I think what customers need to hear is well, what problem are you solving? How are you going to make my life easier? And I think that's where sales and marketing kind of comes in, to take this tech brilliance and turn it into something a little bit more relatable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. It's a real challenge because it's such a mind shift change. So that's why we always try to talk to people. When I'm working with business, and talking to the salespeople or talking to the founder, who needs to get better at sales is, I think, about what speed. So what I've been saying recently a lot is the speed you can build your business, is the speed in which you can build and transfer trust, and so marketing does a significant role of that. Because of all the things that marketing does whether it be content or reviews or word of mouth or case studies or whatever those things are you deal with a salesperson. They need to be able to come from the position of believability and status where they can guide the customer into making a purchasing decision, much like a doctor would say well, this is the right drug for you because you've done a diagnosis and the prescription is accurate, depending on the customer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so true, so true. Like figure out what the problem is, where do they fit in that assessment, and then try and sell. Yeah, so true, so true. Like figure out what the problem is. Where do they, you know, fit in that assessment?
Speaker 2:and then try and sell.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I want to ask, in your experience, what you find has worked really well when it comes to selling. But I also want to flip that question a little bit and ask what are some of the biggest misconceptions that tech founders think makes sales work well biggest?
Speaker 2:misconceptions that tech founders think make sales work well. Okay, so we've all had some exposure to a pushy salesperson, let's say and often people who aren't in sales or marketing have made this personal decision, whether it be consciously or subconsciously is to not be that guy or girl, to not be that pushy person, that sleazy salesperson, the used car salesperson I've got friends of mine in used cars, so I don't want to say that anymore, but you get the point right. So they don't want to be that person. So what they do is they go the other way and they almost bore the customer into buying, so they go. Well, we try to be a feature dump. It's the best product that tries to win the game. So the misconception about sales is you've got to be pushy. The misconception about sales is you've got to be not you and you need to have a different character when it comes to selling, and so the reality is that we need to have the customer speak more. The other thing that salespeople and founders believe is they need to have the gift of the gab right. We've all heard that story where a natural born salesperson always talking gift of the gab, that type of thing. So the challenge with that is in 2025, and certainly for the last five years and I believe going on is that the more the salesperson speaks, the more the trust goes down, and the more the customer speaks, the trust goes up Because in every interaction, whether a sale or any type of sales interaction, the financial reality of this conversation is, if the salesperson convinced the client to do something, there's going to be a cost to that. There's going to be a financial reality at the end of that. So the person's already resistant.
Speaker 2:Right, it's the. You walk into a store. Hi, can I help you? No, thanks, just looking it's almost like go away. I don't want to hear from you. I'm going to get in front of this whole thing before you even start your spiel. And so what I've teach my, what I teach salespeople and business owners in the SaaS world, is I get them to find a list of questions that are going to reveal whether or not the customer is right for you. Then you can make a recommendation If they genuinely can benefit from your product, because you've asked those questions and the customer has spoken significantly about their issue, the cost of the issue. So some of the questions. I'll just give you some examples.
Speaker 1:I was just about to ask, give us a glimpse in some of the questions.
Speaker 2:So some of the questions are so how long has it been a problem? How long have you been dealing with this? Okay, and because people are always solving the problems, regardless of SaaS audience, here the people are already solving the problem that you solve. They might not be doing as elegantly as you or as technically capable as you, but they're probably holding it together with the digital duct tape, excel spreadsheets, hope streams and some good vibes, so they're already solving the problem and so you're going to come in with your product and so you need to talk about the problem. And they talk about oh well, I'll be solved this way, and how much does that cost you? And how have you tried to solve that in the past? Because if they're talking to you, they've still got the problem that they. It's bright and shining. How have you tried to solve that in the past? And that gives you incredible insight of what the customer has tried. And if you start making recommendations or start talking about the things that they've already tried, you're once again.
Speaker 2:Your trust goes down yeah and then the last part is why didn't that work? And the the level of insight you get there is oh well, barry and logistics didn't want another damn ipad program, you know. Or or mary in account, she doesn't want to do this. Or or f Fred in administration doesn't want to have these ones over here and he's already got five people entering that data or doing that thing, collecting that information, distributing it.
Speaker 2:Well, these people in these roles have probably created a little fiefdom for themselves, a little group of people that they control or that they manage, and giving up that level of control is risky to them. So we need to have the customers say well, what is it? How often does it show up? What's it costing you? And then you go into what have you done to try to solve that in the past and why didn't that work?
Speaker 2:And if you can ask that stack of questions in that order, you're going to find yourself in a situation where the customer has been speaking for so long, they've found their own bruise and then they've gone ahead and kicked it over and over and over and they start talking about the real issues internally, because if they say something like, oh, we just couldn't get past the post because the projects wouldn't take it up. Well, that gives you an indication whether or not your software can get in there, because you might still get all the way to the end. The last decision the board decided the buying group is aligned, everybody's in. But if project management is not going to take up the job, you've probably got no chance in actually getting your deal through.
Speaker 1:That's so true. As you were talking, I was just kind of thinking, you know, those questions are going to reveal a lot of the politics and change management issues in the organization. So you almost know from day one oh, how hard is it going to be to get in there with. You know, with the product, and how many economic buyers are there, because in the world of b2b there's sometimes six to eight, right very often and there's a lot of unseen buyers.
Speaker 2:Then the also the thing is with a lot of b2b, because software is such that you know we're now in 2020, we're not back in 1999 when I first started, and people just believe you and trust the software is going to work. Most people these days have got to a point now where they've been burned by at least one failed implementation. So really, it groups now are charged with the job of blocking threats, attack vectors, if we want to use a technical term or potential backdoors into the organization, and onboarding new software is a real pain in the backside. So not only are there eight or 10 buyers, but there's also probably another eight or 10. If we're talking of organization of eight or 10 people, there's a buying committee. You're probably talking about another eight or 10 people who can say no because they're procedurally involved in executing the software and their version of no might be are they SOC 2 compliant or are they ISO 27001 compliant? Or what's their policy when it comes to left-handed people from Narang? Whatever it might be, they've got to come up with some version. They want to keep covering their backside because a lot of buying decisions, certainly with people through organizations like you're talking about their job.
Speaker 2:When I'm helping customers who sell to government corporates large organizations it becomes less and less about better, faster, cheaper, which is probably what people in the South Sea world are trying to go for. Better product we deliver it faster. We can do it cheaper at a greater volume Great. It becomes less about that. The larger the business gets, the less it becomes about. You sell to government. You talk about better, faster, cheaper. You've got no real chance.
Speaker 1:No, you've got to go at their pace, don't you Well?
Speaker 2:you need to go to their pace, absolutely and their pace. And what do they care about? Well, they care about looking good, their next promotion, and if it blows up in their face, they've made the right decision. So if we think back in the day, we had businesses who would buy. You don't get sacked for buying IBM, and not because it was the best product, it's because it was safe and at a board level.
Speaker 2:If they went, hey, joanna, why did you buy this product? You can say, well, all of these people use it, it's the industry standard, I'm safe, and they go. You know what? That's a safe answer. But if they buy some niche product that solves a niche issue and it blows up, then why did you buy this? Oh well, they were the best? Yeah, but they've only been around for a couple of years and I don't have enough evidence and really you're sacked. So you've made a poor decision. So that's why HubSpot and Salesforce and large ERP systems like Epicor, that's why these guys win, which might necessarily be a worse product or as good a product, but there might be other products out there in the marketplace that can do just as good a job for less money. So safety and covering your butt is something to talk to when it comes to selling to those large organizations.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if you're one of the organizations that's possibly maybe not a startup, but still not considered one of the safe products to bring into the organization and you're having to talk to say you know four to six to eight decision makers you know Tech Talk usually comes in and nails this kind of strategy what are some things that salespeople and founders can do in order to break through it and get their products across and beat the likes of IBM and HubSpot and Salesforce?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do that with our clients all day, every day, and the way we do that is we think I try to explain a sale as like a relay race, and so the baton crosses the line, but not the first person that picks it up. So, first of all, marketing and selling should be talking to somebody. If you think you sell to the CEO and you're selling to larger organizations, you shouldn't be targeting the CEO because they've got a lineup out the door. This is the nightclub line of salespeople. They're up there, they're in the cold, they're freezing, they're hoping the bouncer lets them pass. They've got their ID in their hand. That's the visual I have when somebody's trying to sell to a CEO, but there's always the cool guys and girls as a side door. You know somebody. You can get in the side door. There's a way to.
Speaker 2:So what does that look like in a commercial sense or a corporate sense? So, if you sell a product that solves a logistics issue, go find the warehouse manager, connect with them on LinkedIn, communicate with them and recognize that you're going to solve actually going to solve their problem, because at a large organization, ceos so far removed they've already got people involved in fixing that problem Might have to throw bodies at it, but they're solving it. Might not be very elegant, but they're solving the problem. So then, how we do that is we bring on one person logistics sales somewhere not necessarily the CEO then we provide them, we bring them on site and ask them how to sell to the next person, because they probably know. So, mentally and emotionally, you go so how would John react to this? Or how would Mary react to this, to this particular issue? Oh, this, this and this.
Speaker 2:Well, I've got this document that you might want to show them. So if we're going from logistics, which is about procedure, and we're going to go talk to finance, we need to start talking finance language. If we're talking market reputation conversation, finance aren't interested in that. They're constantly under pressure to deliver greater levels of value for less money. Talking about brand, talking about customer satisfaction, is two or three steps removed from the ones and zeros of how do I get more bang for my buck, and so, therefore, we need to have different. So people like you will then go ahead and provide them with marketing materials that say and the title might be a bit obvious, but still something you could use you know why CEOs love, or why CFOs love this product. Short white paper, short document with references. Say hand this to them, organize that meeting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that nightclub analogy. It's so true, isn't it? It's like no one's getting in.
Speaker 2:No, one's getting in. It's so funny.
Speaker 1:It's so funny because most of my clients they want to target the CEOs, the C-suite, the CFO, the CTO, the CISO, and you're right, it's so hard to break through. I mean, they don't check their emails. They're maybe sometimes on LinkedIn. You know, from a marketing standpoint you have to get really creative about how you're going to target those guys. But I love that backdoor analogy. Like you know, get in with someone that's internally already in may know the CEO can help facilitate that introduction.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, and so you just move up the ranks. So that's how we talk about when marketing, when we do marketing material or when we do sales processes, and we also the other big key that I talk about when it comes to selling is actually the strategy. If you're selling B2B software, whether it be SaaS or however you sell it because people have been burned with software in the past the first sale shouldn't be software, which sounds crazy. Most people look at me oh, what do you mean so well, so don't sell software because people don't want to buy software. They've got rules, they've got regulations, they've got it departments to defeat. They've got um, you know the the bitter taste in their mouths from the last failed implementation. They They've just paid their Microsoft bill, which is $10,000 this month you know it's all this sort of stuff, right or their AWS bill, which is $100,000. And so they've got all these things going on. They don't need another bit of software.
Speaker 2:So what we do is we need to be able to build from trust, and trust is the basis upon which all sales are made anyway. So how do we do that? Well, we actually. I get my clients to rebuild the sales strategy and sell consulting first, even for a $1,000 to $2,000 a month SaaS product, do consulting first. Charge some money, some money. Give me 500 bucks. I've had one client go all the way up to in mining, go up to a hundred, I go up to uh, thirty thousand dollars and that's just to add value to what you're offering, because if you give it away for free, there's they're not appreciating it as much give it away for free, not going to appreciate it.
Speaker 2:And also, once you've had your bill paid, once for consulting, you've put a shot across the bar of procurement and no longer is procurement a barrier to entry. Procurement is so often a barrier to entry, right? So you come in and you enter as a consultant and the barrier to entry on the consultant is way lower. Human. They walk in, they walk out and people will buy people all the time. They've got all these employees. We buy that. So that's the strategy we operate with. We go, start with consulting and then, as a consultant, you can look from the inside out. You can go. Well, what I've seen is I spoke to Barry in logistics and he has this, this and this issue. Mary in finance, who has this, this and this issue. Bob over here has this, this and this issue. Based on these issues, our product will solve these issues plus these other ones over here. So my professional opinion you've paid me for my opinion, which is the consulting piece.
Speaker 1:My professional opinion you should buy this product and you've also had a chance to meet mary john and everyone that can get you to the ceo in that process because?
Speaker 2:because john has been in logistics for 20 years and he's seen all this crap come and go and he's just tired of these whiz kids coming along with another bit of software to annoy them with love that I'm too busy, I've got boxes I've got trucks. I'm not interested in your nonsense I write it down on a bit of paper. I've been doing it for 25 years that way on my clipboard.
Speaker 2:Leave me alone yeah but if you sit down with him and talk to him about that, you actually literally go on on site. I teach my customers to go on site. If a customer is worth $50,000 a year or more, which often they are, go on site. I've got clients who it's a million dollars for year one, so it's well worth it. But you need to get paid to provide an opinion, because opinions or consulting that occurs for free is typically, in the eyes of the customer, worth the money you've paid for it, which is zero.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's so clever, yeah, it makes so much sense. I'm just thinking as well, like from a marketing point of view. You know, obviously, all these SaaS companies, they've got the websites and all the call to actions are like free, trial, free, you know, request demo.
Speaker 2:How would you turn that on its head? How, what would you?
Speaker 2:change about that free trials are the worst free trial, literally, unless your product is as easy as canva or as easy as the more b2c then or trello or or something so easy that even a person with you know single digit iqting click in front of it, sit in front of and go.
Speaker 2:I understand to do A Trello pick up thing, move it to the next thing, got it. Takes one minute to understand how Trello works. Same with Canva Click a button, put an image in happy days. That's why Canva's obviously these two businesses are massive, right, because it's so simple and there's virality baked into there. The thing is, when you start talking about as sas businesses and you want to start growing a product-led growth because because you can start product growth is different. Product-led growth needs to actually the business model inside the product needs to create a situation in which you can share that with somebody the second, third and fourth party and they don't need to pay for an account, they don't need to go through a whole bunch of rigmarole to to view it. It's easy for them to get access to it, but that needs to still attach to the main product.
Speaker 2:That's product design thinking when you come to product-led growth for SaaS businesses. So I've lost my train of thought there with what I was saying.
Speaker 1:Product-led growth easy when you have something like Canva, but maybe sales-led growth.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you asked about free trial and free demo, right? Free demo is obviously a sales pitch. Yeah, nobody's walking around going great, I get to do a free demo today. It's free. Normally they charge for demos. Like, give me a break. Nobody's charging for demos. Free demos, I hate it, so don't do that. And also free trial demos I hate it, um, so don't do that. And also free trial nobody in 2025. We've, we've all been squeezed on on budget. Costs are going up.
Speaker 1:People are wearing multiple hats. So sales.
Speaker 2:No one's got time yeah, no admin managers like oh it's 10 30 on a wednesday. I'm pretty pretty chill right now let's do a free trial.
Speaker 1:Let's do it I.
Speaker 2:I'm excited to spend five, six, seven hours figuring out whether I can buy Joanna's software and at the end of that I get to spend money. It's not so stop that nonsense. Absolutely Most of my clients, if they're doing free trials, I'm going to say if this has got to be and same with salespeople, they push for demos. Oh, they get you on the phone and they go. I've got to give you a demo. I'm sorry, but in 2025, um, the magic is gone. Honeymoon's over. The magic is gone with software.
Speaker 2:20 years ago you could show a demo and go this connects to the, the stock market. They go. Now it's like of course you connect to the stock market, you do this and you draw this line. You do do this. Of course, does it also create cat videos for me automatically from a prompt? People have been so conditioned to exciting things online that your demo if you're doing an accounting program or an ERP program or anything, or a data collection program, it's not that interesting. I'm sorry, but it's not so you need to stop that because your product won't sell itself.
Speaker 1:So what call to actions have you seen work well, dan, if not the demo, if not the trial, if not the. You know, maybe here's an on-demand demo so you don't have to speak to someone, but that one still doesn't work demo so you don't have to speak to someone, but it's that one still doesn't work.
Speaker 2:So I've spoken about trust too many times already, but I bet the people have to trust that your product can solve the problem. And you need to solve the problem and we know that 99 of the people that come in contact with your brand aren't looking to buy right now. So you need to build and recognize that. You recognize that you're going to bank that trust for in a year's time If you continue to do that and continue to execute on that marketing thing and draw those leads in, provide free guides, free webinars, also other products that can help them solve their problem. Because if you can solve the problem for 90% of the market and they don't pay you, this sounds like an odd thing to do. This is why technical founders want, know, want to talk about ip. We remove that layer of resistance, demonstrate, show how the product is, and then they'll go. Then you need to engage with them at a salesperson and make an offer they can't refuse. You still need to engage with ourselves. So what do you do instead? Uh, what's the call to action? You know the five ways that mileage, the, the five ways XYZ software solved ABC problem and then we engaged them with content. We engaged them with that type of stuff. If you want to do free demos, then it would be. I would rather do case studies so how ABC solved their problem and are now XYZ better off.
Speaker 2:Case studies for build far more trust than um. The demos do the demo. So for one of my clients they have a um, a product that does sorry, it's software for the construction industry, so I didn't want to go into too deep of what they do, but software for construction, and so we have changed the way that they sell. They don't go straight for the demo. There's now a 23 question framework in which the customer must pass through before they see the demo because the software is not that interesting. No, software is. So therefore we need to get to a point where the question is if you like what you see in the demonstration and backs up with what we've been saying, would you be going ahead? No, I understand. Can I ask what was the main reason you're not going ahead?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh we've got to do this, this and this, okay, so why don't we do those things first? We get really clear on everything before we do this pit.
Speaker 1:Love that, love that as a strategy. I mean, yeah, it makes so much sense and you know there's so much pushback in B2B, especially when software costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions. Yeah, it does make a lot of sense. When you walk into a company and look it has a great product but perhaps it's lagging revenue, where do you start diagnosing the issue? Is it with the product? Is it with the people? Is it with the processes? Where do you start with that?
Speaker 2:I start with who are your best clients, and not the ones that pay you the most, so we'll take money off the table. Who are your best clients? And when I say best clients I mean who do you like? Like, literally like. Who do you like to do business with? Because there's going to be a whole bunch of financially profitable and useful clients to have. But who do you actually like?
Speaker 2:And once we understand that, what are the common characteristics there? And they might go oh well, they've got dedicated project managers to go ahead and implement stuff. They're results orientated, they're happy to invest money in the future of their organization. And we take that, we process that and then we weave that into our marketing and selling. And then, once the salesperson is talking to you know, once you've understood their problem, how long it's existed and what they've done to try to solve that and why didn't it work sort of question framework. Then you're going to say something you're going to present and move to talking about yourself with a question like well, joanna, would you like me to tell you? Move to talking about yourself with a question like well, joanna, would you like me to tell you a little bit about what we do? And by that stage the person's like oh, please do, because they've just spent 10 minutes kicking their own bruise.
Speaker 1:It's a relief.
Speaker 2:It's a relief because then they feel like they're going to start learning more. You go well. Our best customers, joanna, our best customers are results orientated and they're happy to invest in seeing an outcome occur. Our best customers. And what you do is you literally go down the list of how your best customers operate and by talking about your best customers, it creates an aspirational positioning for your product. You're not talking about better, faster, cheaper. You're not talking about these things.
Speaker 1:You're talking about the types of customers that get the highest level of value out of your organization and that adds trust as well, because if these people are working with you and they've solved these problems, surely you're trustable surely? Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's how we, that's how we think about. That is we. We want to make always make sure that there is a. The customer is saying more than us always and we are always playing to that. As long as there's an alignment, you don't want to sell people. It doesn't make sense to sell to people who don't need your software or don't need your product. But once you've established that they do need it and they'll get significant value out of it, then really it's your obligation and you sort of owe it to them to have them buy your software. Imagine if you went to the doctor and you had a particular ailment and the doctor went there's some pills here if you need them. Or would you then say you need to take this because of this, this, this and this and it makes absolutely no sense for you not to buy it, not to take these pills. Same with the salesperson or salesman. The same with the founder. It's their obligation. Once established value, it's your obligation to find a way to have the customer buy your product yeah, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 1:I think yeah, learn more than sell um. What's one part of the sales process that you see most sas companies get wrong? I'll share one with you that I see a lot of.
Speaker 1:And a lot of my clients report this as well. They say, you know, where we kind of went wrong is we were targeting the end user of the software, not the decision maker. And, yes, the end user is the one that kind of has to use it and has to love it, but they're not the ones that say, hey, you know, Mr CEO, we need this. They're kind of just going with the flow. What else do you see?
Speaker 2:Well, it sort of talks to the problem I was talking about earlier, which is, you know, we sell to the end user, which is a great way to start, but you've then got to provide that you know that baton that needs to be passed from person to person. You need to provide content, resources, ideas to the next people up in the process. So you know why CEOs love this product and why CFOs love this product, not just why you're a logistics person. So that's how I'd think about that. Now, sorry, at the beginning of the question you also asked something else.
Speaker 1:What part of the sales process do they get wrong?
Speaker 2:Yeah, not following up enough to something else. Uh, what part of the sales process do they get wrong?
Speaker 2:yeah, they were um following, not following up enough okay that's it like, seriously, we're generating hundreds and hundreds of leads. So we, we um for consulting clients. We also do some marketing, but if they don't follow it up then you're going to get nothing. Just think about how people buy. Think about like there's four stages of buying. So first of all, it's first step, lie to the salesperson. No, thanks, Just looking. No, thank you Just looking. Not interested, Just looking, Just want to watch your video.
Speaker 2:Second part is tell me everything. And tell me everything usually feels like how can I eliminate you from my consideration? How do I do nothing? So the person asking the questions has control. So the customer always feel like they need to ask questions because they want to be in control. The salesperson needs to flip that over, which is I've already talked about. Third part is the same as the first part light of the salesperson. What does the third light? What does the third step sound like? I got to take it to the board, take it to my boss, check with my dog, talk to my astrologist. Whatever it is, you know it's it's, you know I'll call you. And then the fourth part is that is hide, Don't answer calls, don't answer emails. So each one of those stages you need to think strategically about how do we unravel that. Take back control during the questioning. Give the client a job.
Speaker 2:So if you provided a brochure, Joanne, I'm more than happy to send you the information that we've spoken about today, just so I can understand. When do you think you'd have a chance to read through that and get back to me? Oh, Tuesday, Great, Okay. So do you reckon I'd hear from you on tuesday afternoon or would it be wednesday morning? Oh, where's that one? Okay, cool, no worries at all. I'm just trying to organize my calendar because I've got a lot of calls in. So if you give me a call tuesday afternoon about four, I'll be available.
Speaker 2:Give the client a job, because the thing is, you sent so many people, they they've, they. They measure the number of brochures they send out or packs of information they send out, whatever it is. Problem is then that email lands in their inbox and unless they click on and open it straight away, that's then going to be boom, another email, another problem. Another thing's happening in the business 20 emails sit on top of your email. They go oh look, Joanna said she's going to follow me up next Tuesday. I'll just deal with it. Then Tuesday comes around, Joanna rings and goes I haven't looked at that yet, Deny. And then, oh, yes, yeah, I saw your email, I was busy.
Speaker 2:And then you start this cycle and every time they don't answer a call or don't answer an email, it's a sedimentary layer of resistance. They start resenting you as a salesperson because they sort of deep down they know they should have looked at your stuff but they didn't. And by having that level of resistance and they deny more calls. And then you get to a point where you have to. If you don't get your second email, your first or second email responded to, the next five aren't going to be responded to, but you still need to send them. And then the next most effective email after email number one, you can send them five more. The next effective email is a breakup email. That email is hey, Joanne, I haven't heard from you. You've either gone somewhere else or given up on the idea. I'll leave you alone for now. If you ever need any help, let me know. All the best Send. People don't like being told they're giving up and they don't actually want to give up. So then that email gets way more response than any other email in the sequence.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm smiling this whole time because it's such a common problem, what you just said, which is basically you have that initial meeting. They're telling you about the problems. You kind of you know. You go through your deck with all your credentials and your capabilities, you say I'm going to send that through to you, which you do, and then there's just nothing after that. There's like this gap. But what does giving them a job actually do? Like how does that change the psychology?
Speaker 2:so they've agreed. So most people in a management role have got there through some level of competence, let's hope and so if they say they're going to do something, there's a good likelihood they're going to do it.
Speaker 1:Human nature in a way, when I say good yeah.
Speaker 2:When I say good, I mean it might only be 30%, but it's going to be way more than the 0% of people you say. Hey, I'll send you the brochure. I'll give you a call on Tuesday, happy to send you the information. When do you think it would be reasonable for me to hear back from you?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you give them a job. The psychology there is I've got a job and the psychology is the ball's been kicked to me. And by giving the customer a job, it actually gives them a feeling of control, which is they do have control because they can read it and say no, but they've still got to read it, they've still got to go through it and if your information, your testimonials, your whatever information pack you send is of high quality and value, that will help them continue to reinforce their enthusiasm for your product.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we've covered some really good strategies there. I'm already like right, I'm going to get started with some of these. Let's talk about tech in sales a little bit. What technology do you use, what software do you use that you find is really just like such a good time saver, you know, for things like prospecting, reaching out, personalization any favorites yes, uh.
Speaker 2:So I'll take you through the way that we get most of our leads and sales in our business and how our customers do as well. So we think about it in a four-part framework and that is, understand the psychographics and demographics of the customer, so not just demographics. We help with logistics companies over $100 million in Queensland. Okay, that's the most basic form of targeting and if you're only doing that you're going to lose. So you want to actually understand the psychographics. How do they act? How are they in the marketplace? How do they think?
Speaker 2:And if you want to figure out how somebody thinks, go find a job advert for the person you're trying to sell to Like if you're selling to a logistics manager in a manufacturing business. Go find a logistics manager job advert on Seek Read through manufacturing business. Go find a logistics manager job advert on seek read through. That's going to tell you how they're measured, their education, the type of person, their remuneration, that you get a really good customer profile Straight away persona. Anyway, yeah, understand who they are and then get attention. How are you going to get attention? So we do that through. I mean, obviously you know as a marketer you'll use all the same tools that everybody else does, and so that's to get attention. But then, once you've got that attention, it's about maintaining and managing and building on that relationship. The relationship is the most important thing to build that trust.
Speaker 2:So the tools that I use we use a CRM, we use Zoho. Obviously, we're using email nurture sequences. Linkedin is really, really powerful. I still think LinkedIn is underrated, even though people are talking about it. But LinkedIn as a connection focus with really good connections, really good messages, not a pitch slap, not a thanks for connecting. Now here's six scrolling pages of how great we are and why we're the cheapest in the world. And if you start a conversation with me trying to pitch me, I imagine, if you imagine walking up to somebody at a networking meeting, which is LinkedIn is, and saying hi, joanna, my name is Matthew, we help X to do Y through Z and we do this. And here's a brochure and here's this. And would you like to come to my webinar and get all of this in the off? Like it's just, you're like, bro, leave me alone. So that's how so many people on LinkedIn do it.
Speaker 1:Oh, you can get out developers for $12.50 an hour.
Speaker 2:So be a human, have a conversation, but then also then also use them. So we do is we have a? So once we connect with a person, we enrich the data. We inject that data into our crm. We also teach our customers to do this. We inject the data into the crm. We continue to enrich that data. We have people in the philippines, we have data researchers. To continue to enrich that data. We connect. Connect with them. If they're already connected on LinkedIn, great. If they're connected through other channels Facebook, whatever we then once again do the same thing find them on LinkedIn, connect with them and then find a piece of content If you don't have it, write it that solves their particular problem that you would guess that they've, and then it's the phone Give them a call and start the call with something disarming or something easy Hello, do you want to buy my thing?
Speaker 2:That's not going to cut it. Do some research, do some work on what actually cuts through. So here's one that's working. I'll give you something for free. So this is the opening statement that I've been teaching some salespeople recently, and it's so crazy that most people won't do it. So here it is. Pick up the phone. Hi, Joanna, it's Matthew here from Tech Talk. Now would it completely ruin your day if I was to tell you this was a sales call?
Speaker 1:I've heard this before and I think the reason why that works is because the surprise element's gone. You're like, oh, I'm glad you kind of addressed the elephant in the room um, and they normally don't go. No, I don't want to hear it hang up that I kind of relieved almost oh, okay well, now we know what's going on here.
Speaker 2:I'm not your friend. Oh, hi, joanna, it's matthew. How are you um? Who are you and good well, we help we, you know we're from a research company. We're not here to sell you anything. Then why are you? And good, Well, we help we, you know we're from a research company, we're not here to sell you anything. Then why are you calling? What's the how's the? Nobody does anything for free.
Speaker 2:Like how are you getting paid? If there's no money, there's no sale involved here. Piss off Like, leave me alone. Don't insult my intelligence by saying this is a free phone call. So true, the phone call costs money. So true, the phone call costs money. Your hours cost money. The computer that you're on costs money. All of the things in this whole world cost money. Now you're calling me up out of the blue for free something. Nah, there's a commercial reality here that exists, that if I need that it'll be at some stage I'll be handing you money. So just stop bullshitting me. Sorry, I got really passionate then, didn't I?
Speaker 1:no, I love it. Um, you actually used two words there that really caught my attention, which was be human. As you know, ai is exploding. Everyone's trying to use it. You know, soon enough you won't know who's human and who's a robot, but I guess, in your experience, how can you ramp up that human element in a world where everyone is now going to be using AI? You know, I wouldn't be surprised if those sales calls you just mentioned are done by AI soon.
Speaker 2:You're absolutely right. So I see AI as the connector between the magic that exists in the business, or the secret sauce that exists in the business If you're particularly good at logistics, or if you're particularly good at marketing, like a copywriter or you know, whatever it might be. Ai should exist in the gaps, in the annoying bits or the bits that take you from one bit of creative expression to the next bit of creative expression. And if you're in software, where's your magic, where's your secret source? Well, it's by connecting this database to this database, providing this type of report. And what are you going to do with that report? Are you going to provide this action? Can you join that action to the outcome, whatever it might be? So AI needs to exist in the spaces in between the creative acts, and so the problem is, though, that the velocity and volume of AI-created content out there is exploding so much that it brings us back to what makes us human, and so I've been writing a newsletter to my database every week, every Tuesday morning. They get some snapshot of what's going on in my brain. We've got a few thousand people who can cope with that, and so the more Joanna you are, or the more Matthew I am, and if I'm talking to entrepreneurs and CEOs and people in marketing, the more human you can make yourself, the more likely you are to build trust and the more trust you'll get more sales. So AI is wonderful. I literally use it every day, every single day. We've implemented tools, processes, we've white-labeled stuff, I've partnered with organizations to build software to do more things faster.
Speaker 2:But the more people see you the personal brand like people have been talking about personal brands this is probably why you do a podcast, right. So you've got to build a personal brand. Ai is never going to take that personal brand. This is probably why you do a podcast, right? So you've got to build a personal brand. Ai is never going to take that personal brand from you. So the goal that every business owner, unfortunately, even if you're a wonderful technician, your job now is the brand of you and you are trusted and your product, whether it be a logistics product or an accounting product and your product, whether it be a logistics product or an accounting product doesn't matter. Your product is the manifestation of your trust in that industry. But that trust needs to start with you.
Speaker 1:I totally agree with that Personal branding. You know, one of our most successful campaigns that we ran back in 2017 was we got the salespeople or the product managers or whoever was in charge of kind of selling the product at the time, and we said every bit of content that gets created, it's not going to come from the company or the brand, it's going to come from you, and you better read up on these topics and learn as much as you can, because people are going to be asking you lots of questions, which is exactly what happened, and so their personal brand went up the brand, the brand of the company, we didn't even touch and, um, you know, people buy from people at the end of the day, so it it's totally works so one of the things I say to people is I go, well, you know, are you, do you consider yourself b2b or b2c?
Speaker 2:and they are b2b. They said well, can we reframe that to H to H, because businesses don't buy anything.
Speaker 1:Human to human. Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Businesses don't buy things. I can't sell anything to any business. A person inside that business buys it and that person has their own dreams, hopes, desires. You know ambition. And if we need to make sure that our product aligns with those four or five key emotional triggers because there's lots of products out there that can solve the problem, there's lots of ways the product problem can be solved. There's lots of products that can solve the problem you need to provide an alignment of values, alignment between what you're selling and what the customer's doing, and that's why we all go all the way back to who do you like to do business with? What are their values? What do they value? Do you align with that? Then that's what you sell, because there's an abundance of sales and customers out there.
Speaker 2:The world is so massive now. This is not 200 years ago where you could sell to your people in your village If a blacksmith next door showed up. Now you're both selling horseshoes. Well, we've got problems, but now I've got customers in Sugar Land, texas. I've got customers in the UK. I've got customers in Milwaukee. I live on the Gold Coast.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And of course I've got customers all around Australia and New Zealand as well.
Speaker 2:So you could be talking to me and I could be living in anywhere, operating from anywhere, and it's completely irrelevant. So the world is your oyster. Many of my clients who are selling things for $500,000 a year or a million dollars a year in the technology world they need one sale a month. One sale a month is significantly increasing their bottom line, and so the world is so massive you should go after more and more niche customers. If you can go after a particular type of person with a particular type of values and a particular type of organization, you'll find them. There's plenty of them out there.
Speaker 1:In your experience, what separates a good salesperson from a great one? Like, maybe just one personality trait that you find a great salesperson has.
Speaker 2:I have worked with, trying to give you a succinct answer, but I've worked with people who are a top salesperson. One of our organizations was somebody that I never got along with. So it's not likability, it's somebody in which the prospect can trust to be telling the truth. So empathy, and, yeah, empathy. I'm trying to give you a single word. It's empathy. So empathy and trust. I'll give you two words empathy and trust. The empathy in relation to I understand what you're going through and I can solve your problem, and vice versa. Do I like this? I like them because I know they're going to tell me the truth. And then also it's. I used to joke with my team. Say, you just got to belly up to the bar for a big slice of rejection pie every day and know that you're going to have to follow these people up a dozen times.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know you can't sit back and go. Oh well, if they want to buy it, they will, because people are busy, or you know, if you're smart you'd buy it. Well, that's a cop-out because really it's your obligation and your duty to make sure you present the product in the best possible light. So it's the tenacity, it's the trust and the empathy.
Speaker 1:Well said, what's your take on the self-serve model? Because a lot of data is coming out now, and I think this was kind of exasperated by COVID pandemic, when everyone just went through the digital transformation and started just doing everything online. What we saw is that a lot of B2B software, for example, was getting purchased by a self-serve, and it was deals up to a million dollars as well. So what's your take on that? Do you think that has more growth potential? Do you think people are going to want to speak more to people in the future, given AI's involvement?
Speaker 2:So for the majority, I'm surprised to hear that there was deals going for a million dollars without any human involvement, but things can happen. How I think about it is marketing is. So Google have called it the messy middle. So Google has done a bunch of research on marketing because they're the biggest marketing company in the world oh well, facebook as well but they've done this research and they've come up with this term called the messy middle. And so somebody becomes aware of your brand or your product or your service, and then they sort of drift around the internet for sometimes years. They come across your product, they might sign up to your thing. They then go away, they unsubscribe, they come back, they see a video, they sort of dance around with your brand.
Speaker 2:Whereas in the past, when I started my first business, we put an advert. The newspaper is five centimeters long by one column wide, had some really great copy in there and a 1-800 number. So that was the amount of advertising that we did 1999, long, long time ago. Ancient history, ancient history. But then the salespeople would pick up the call and they would have to do all the work they would introduce the product, they would qualify the prospect, they would provide documentation, they would organize demonstrations, they would do all of the things. Then they would ask for the sale, whereas today that line between becoming aware and making a purchase it used to be marketing. Advertising happened to you and then sales would be all this bit.
Speaker 2:Now they become aware and marketing's doing all of this stuff. Then they pluck up the courage to speak to a human and that person better be really good, really understanding, really on point, say the right things at the right time to the right people in the right way. At that one phone call or two phone calls, because you've got no other chances. So I'm finding that salespeople are becoming vital to the whole process. I think the self, so most businesses still want to be assured that their many tens of or hundreds or millions of dollars worth of product is going to be backed by a real human who can assure them of their decision Self-service. My friend Kirk Drage talks a lot about this From LeapSheet. He talks about how you're going to bake the selling into the model of the product and so the people are going to be able to touch, taste and feel it, because they trust somebody else in the industry, have used it and they've recommended it.
Speaker 1:And that recommendation engine.
Speaker 2:that's a strategy. So you've got to get attention, and you get attention through any one of the modalities, and one of them is running a really strong referral program.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that it's called the messy middle. It's so true, it's so messy. And I find it really funny when clients ask you know what channels should we be on? And I kind of say all of them, because they're going to be everywhere at different times. You know different parts of their buyer journey, so you just need to make sure you're there when they're searching.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so what? I think when I talk to clients about that sort of stuff, I said don't be, don't have multiple personalities. Try to keep one personality but then mold it to the platform. So, if your main platform is b2b, obviously you're doing stuff on linkedin. Have your linkedin personality and you're. It's okay to have your linkedin personality on instagram. There might just be a little bit more visual, a little bit more auditory, might be just a little bit more colorful, but don't change your auditory. My business is a little bit more colourful, but don't change your personality. Don't be doing dances on Insta and then try to sell million-dollar ERP systems on LinkedIn. It's not going to work.
Speaker 1:No, consistency is key. You've been involved in over 100 million worth of tech sales. I'm curious what's one deal that thought you, a key lesson that you still use today?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, so we were. I was engaged by a company to help them uh, I won't turn too many names, or uh, but, um, we were selling software to the mining sector. Uh, well, look, my customer was. They're a small company, had the best product in the market. There was absolutely no doubt about that. Not enough people knew about them and it was an easy decision to go with a bigger player with a much worse product, because, once again, it's not about better, faster, cheaper, it's about looking good and covering your ass.
Speaker 2:And, of course, the leap to purchasing the software was so massive that nobody had done it for years before I got there.
Speaker 2:So what we did is we implemented that process I was talking about earlier, which is the consulting piece, and we went from doing zero deals in many years before I got there. They were living very nicely, they were doing an extremely good job with the biggest mining companies in the world, but they were selling projects and they're already sold to those people because they built trust there. They want to net new clients and in that, what we did is we implemented an audit process and a process in which we understood the value in which we're able to deliver value to the client and the client was able to trust that we could deliver value and they trust that we understood it. So the big lesson there was putting what I started calling monetizing the sales process. So in the sales process we charged for bits that we would do after the sale anyway. We just brought that forward, individualized it, picked it up out of the first phase of the engagement, brought it forward into the sale and plopped it down there and then charged for it.
Speaker 1:I love that. It's such a good strategy. Yeah, I think it just makes complete sense. You know, if you're an unknown brand, if you're a startup and you're targeting these enterprise-level clients, that's the only way to compete with the big guys, right?
Speaker 2:Yep, we've done that for government, we've done that for NGOs, universities, for various clients, and people have been burned. People don't want to buy software. Doing nothing is usually a good decision. So finding a way to have them genuinely believe and make sure their backside is covered if they do buy it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Now you also host a podcast called the CEO and the Salesman.
Speaker 2:I do.
Speaker 1:I'd love to get maybe just one powerful insight that you've learned from interviewing all your guests.
Speaker 2:The cut from product-focused to people-focused was the time in which the business owners saw real scale.
Speaker 2:So when I say people, I mean recognizing that if you employ somebody to be a programmer and you're a programmer they're not going to be as good as you. They're probably not going to be as good as you, but be okay with that, because whilst they might only be 80% as powerful as you or as good as you, only be 80% as powerful as you or as good as you, you've got 100% of your time back. So now, if you think, well, one is 100, but two might only be 180, three might only be 220, but you're still way more productive by having more people pushing on the product whether it be sales or marketing or strategy or management or administration or finance or service or whatever it might be is the moment in which they decide. Because you think about most large tech businesses I've dealt with some pretty large ones, as I'm sure you have as well when they actually start taking sales and marketing seriously, it's that leap you go right on product to people. I now need people to execute on things for me.
Speaker 1:That's where they get scale so I guess, taking their focus away from the product. How do we add more features? How do we make the product better to then? How do we hire more people that can do everything that's in my head that I just have no time to do, basically?
Speaker 2:but, and also I think marketers get a um don't get enough love and care and attention when it comes to this area, because they need to interpret a passion project or a project or a product that's been out there, and they need to be able to position this in the minds of the customer as a genuinely good option, but also a trusted option. And so the point which they turn to being a marketing organization rather than a software organization if that was the one point for ones that I've seen scale to many hundreds of millions is we're no longer a software business or a sales and marketing business.
Speaker 1:So true.
Speaker 2:And when my customers say it's time to become a sales and marketing business, I go, watch out, here we go. Time to become a sales and marketing business? I go, watch out, here we go. Because if you put as much passion and energy and finance resources into sales and marketing as you have to build and deliver a great product, all's your oyster.
Speaker 1:Yeah, matthew, my last question for you, kind of a tradition on this podcast. Actually, I kind of asked this at the end of every podcast. Actually I kind of asked this at the end of every podcast. If you could go back in time and give yourself one bit of advice, when would that point be back in time and what would that advice be?
Speaker 2:Interesting, so business advice.
Speaker 1:Could be business, could be personal, we can go anywhere.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I've got a range of answers. Don't sell real estate. Always buy it and keep it forever, because it's been going up wildly forever. So that's one thing. That's a personal thing. Business-wise people care about you, your product, your ego, your market. People care way less than you think.
Speaker 2:So I've held on to, and so this all boils down to listen to your wife. And so there was a time in which we had a really expensive lease, like $400,000 a year lease for premises, and it was coming up for renewal. We didn't need all that space. It was a bit of an ego spot and I said to Terry we need to keep this to keep up appearances. And we didn't. And so we eventually got out of that lease and it was a real lot of pain, cost us a lot of money. But if we'd not renewed that and found different premises or found a different way of working, we would be a lot of money better off than that 400 grand a year just for that lease. And there's 10 versions of that answer in relating to 10 financial decisions I've made because we need to keep up appearances or because we need to keep the salespeople happy, or we need to play.
Speaker 2:Everybody in the company needs their own office, or this is the type of organization we want to be, all of those sort of things. Now, I'm not saying always go with what the accountant says, but certainly the answer is people care about you and your business way less than you think. So do what you think is right for you and back yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so true, isn't it? They care more about the relationship they have with you and the fact that you're making them look good in the organisation, rather than what office you're in, what you're wearing, what car you're driving, all those kinds of things. But it is a common problem I think all of us make. So, yeah, interesting one, thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my pleasure.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I've definitely got some really good insights from you today. I'm sure anyone listening to this podcast is already going away and rethinking their whole strategy. So thank you, Matthew my pleasure.
Speaker 2:Thanks very much for having me on. I appreciate it. Have a great day.
Speaker 1:You too.
