The 80/20 Growth Strategy: How to Find Your Most Valuable Customers

Is your SaaS business growing but somehow still feeling stuck? You might be spending 80% of your energy on the wrong 20% of clients.

In this episode of SaaS Stories, host Jo is joined by Christine Day, B2B growth strategy consultant, published author, software developer, and fractional CMO, to explore the 80/20 Growth Strategy and what it really means for SaaS businesses trying to break through growth plateaus.

Christine shares the moment everything clicked for her: sitting in a client's office and realising that the one thing missing from every growth strategy is a data-driven ideal customer profile. What followed was a framework and eventually a software tool to help businesses objectively score and rank their clients, then laser-focus their growth efforts on the ones that matter most.

In this episode you will learn:

• What the 80/20 (Pareto) principle actually means for SaaS revenue and client value
• How to identify your top 20% using business goals and top-down metrics, not guesswork
• The three options for dealing with your bottom 80%
• What a value inflection point is and how to recognise when you have hit one
• How account-based marketing fits into a high-value client strategy
• Why most SaaS companies track metrics at the company level but miss the most important view, the customer level

Whether you are in early scale-up or have been stuck at the same revenue number for a while, this conversation will give you a new lens for growth.

Brought to you by Hat Media 

Transcript

Why 80 20 Usually Fails

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You can 10x your business by focusing on the 20% that works. Um, they don't really tell you how to find that 20%. And they basically say just get rid of the 80%. So all of these books and methodologies and discussions are all about um just find the 20%. They don't really tell you how to find the 20%. So 80% of them are taking up 80% of your effort, of the company's resources and time and effort, but you're only getting 20% out of them. Whereas once you create the metrics from the top down and everyone knows about it, it has amazing ramifications through the whole business because all of a sudden decisions are objective, not subjective.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

There's been a massive shift, I think, in the B2B consumer, especially since the pandemic, everyone kind of became, you know, a digital Avenger. They just kind of did their own research, they didn't need to speak to sales as much.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Most people develop software that is like something else. This is like nothing. I didn't really go about searching for that 8020 principle. It was my aha moment was completely different.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Welcome everyone to another episode of SAS Stories. I'm really excited to be joined today by Christine Day, fractional CMO, growth strategist, software developer, and author. Welcome. Thank you. Great to be here. Thanks, so you've been on quite the journey. You've gone across IBM, uh, you've worked with some enterprise organizations, global organizations, and you've developed software, you've written a book. Tell us about your journey. What got you from A to here? Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Uh, well, way back when I popped out of uni as a systems engineer and systems programmer, so I was technical, had a propeller head on, and was technical for four years. Until someone tapped me on the shoulder and said, You really need to be in sales. And looking back, it's like, oh thank God they did. Um anyway, so I went through sales for most most of my career, went into sales management pretty quickly and um business unit executive type roles. Um, but then wanted to start up my own business. And that's when everyone said, Oh, I suppose you're going to be a sales consultant. And it's like, I don't really like what they do. So digital marketing was all very new then. It was about 10 years ago now. So I worked my way from the ground up um doing tactics, but it soon became pretty clear that I'm a strategist. I mean, I was looking, that's what I was doing in corporate, looking at territories and um where is demand and what's the right product to fit that demand, getting all the right um resources in the right space. Um, so I'm a strategist at heart, so it didn't take long to move towards strategy.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Strategist and a software developer, but you've also mainly worked with SAS and tech clients, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Yeah, most of my clients are in SAS and tech, but look at everything financial services. I've even worked with painters important enough to be fine. Yeah, B2C, but no, B2B is really my sweet bot, and certainly SAS is I I understand. I live and breathe SAS, so yeah.

The Aha Moment Behind 80 20

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Yeah. And you've coined something called the 8020 principle, which um tell us what that means. What was the aha moment? What is the 8020 growth strategy that you have?

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Yeah. So I didn't actually coin the term, it's been around for a while. Okay. Um, it around it used, it's the it's called the Pareto Principle, basically. Villanov, I think his name is Pareto in the 18 something corrubbers, realized that 20% of um the economy was uh was controlling uh 80% of the wealth. And he looked at a number of different areas. It's always this 80-20 principle. I mean, there's been heaps of books written on it. Um, there's like Matthew, sorry, Perry Perry Marshall has written a book called the 80-20 principle, and it talks about sales and marketing. Um, the most common one at the moment is um 10x is easier than 2x by Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Harvey. And they basically say you can 10x your business by focusing on the 20% that works. Um, they don't really tell you how to find that 20%, and they basically say just get rid of the 80%. So all of these books and methodologies and discussions are all about um just find the 20%. They don't really tell you how to find the 20%. So um I I didn't really go about searching for that 80-20 principle. It was my aha moment was completely different. Um, it was so to get to your question of the aha moment. Um, I was working with a client, I've been working with them for over a year. They um we always had a monthly get together, and this particular month they call me early and ask me into their offices, and I'm going, oh, okay, this is not good. Um, I get to their offices and I'm going, waiting for it, waiting for it. Right at the very end, they sort of go, Well, we've lost our largest client. So I thought, oh, that's not good. Not devastating, but not good. Um, and then they proceeded to say, Well, you know how we said that our ideal customer profile was wealthy, high net worth individuals. Um, we've changed our mind. We want ma and pa in the hills. And I just went, I've just put this whole strategy together and we've been working on it for over a year, been working well, and I always pride myself on being data-driven. So everything I did, I interviewed the clients, I made sure that everything that came out of that data. So when I say data-driven, I don't mean looking at dashboards, and that's really important for the tactics, but I'm talking about from the strategy perspective.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Yeah, more data.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Data from the source, from the most important people.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

The client.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

The client. Voila. They're the only ones that matter.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

So everything was driven by those conversations. But now all of a sudden, the initial there's only one point in the entire process that's not data-driven that was left up to opinion and I mean experienced opinion. Like the founders have been through things for many, many years and have come up with this opinion and this um assumption, if you like, that that's what they wanted to do. So, but it's not data-driven, right? So that's what got me to think I need to find a way to get that ideal customer profile driven by data. How do I do that?

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

And that's when I started on the whole 8020 principle and looking at metrics and looking at you know, uploading data. And that's when I started with the whole idea and then went into, oh, this is a lot of data, and it's actually quite hard. I think I need to develop a soft piece of software to do it.

What To Do With The 80%

SPEAKER_01 7:36

So tell us about the software, but before you do it, I still I'm trying to get wrap my head around this 80-20. So is oh yeah, essentially, say an organization has clients, is it 20% of them are the ideal clients, and 80% are probably not the most ideal, and probably consuming more resources than they should, and eating up a lot of the budgets and everything like that.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Nailed it, yeah. So this 80-20 principle, as I said, is something that is happening in in everything. But if we just look at business, and I'm talking about clients, because that's all that we care about, right? The um the Pareto principle basically says 20% of your clients are generating 80% of your value. You and this whole process is about determining what a specific business's value is, and 80% of them are generating 20% of your value.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

So 80% of them are taking up um 80% of your effort of the of the company's resources and time and effort, but you're only getting 20% out of them. So it's that beautiful sweet spot of the 20% that is generating exponentially large or uh a disproportionately large um amount of value for the business.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Yeah. So is there an ideal percentage, Dan? Like you don't want to get rid of the 80 completely, maybe it's 50-50 or something like that. What's the what's the goal that SaaS companies should have?

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Yeah, so that's actually a good question too. So I always talk about 80-20, but in actual fact, sometimes the 20 is, I don't know, 18% or um 19 or 23. It's not specifically always 20, but it's typically around close. That, yeah. Um yeah, but uh then the question is, you know, what do you do with the 80%? So that's uh really it's a tough one. So all these um other books basically say get rid of your 80%. Yeah. Which in a SaaS business is not that easy to do, right? So you've I I in the book I I come up with three three options that you can look at. Um so the first is to have a look at um is to focus on the 20%. So the process is you go through um the software or the the book and and go through a process up to 20%. And the next step's the most important step, which is putting a growth strategy together to deeply understand that 20%, find out what similarities there are in that 20%, find the buyer personas, and then put a growth strategy together to laser focus and target those 20%. So you just get more of them. And that's the most important bit, right? So the net new growth is part of the 20%, so you're getting, and that's how you get your exponential growth. But then the, you know, what do you do with the 80%, right? Well, in the in the first option, it's just about focusing and getting more of the 20%, and then over time something happens to the 80%. The second option is to create a separate business because there's all these other books are basically saying the 80% are draining, are taking away resources, and you don't have the capability to focus properly and give the 20% the attention they deserve. So you actually do need to somehow separate them out. So maybe a separate business unit, separate um uh structure as far as staff goes. Maybe you've got an A team and a B team, for example. Um, or you might just have different pricing structures for um your B's versus your A's. And the third option is you actually do sort of get rid of them. When I say get rid of them, it's not a matter of um they're saying bye-bye straight away. It's a matter of going, these guys are actually costing us more, and putting a pricing structure in place so that they see that, or putting resources, as I said, in place to see that. So you two eventually remove them from the business.

Scoring Customers With Goal-Based Metrics

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Yeah. And silly, I I completely get how this would work for a services business because you can kind of identify who's paying you the most and who's taking up the most of your time. So it's more kind of like on an hourly or a time basis. But with SaaS businesses, how do you identify that 20? Like it's because most SaaS businesses have subscriptions, they have the customer success teams. How can they go about identifying who their 20 is?

SPEAKER_00 12:12

And that's actually the most important part to the whole strategy. It's uh and this is where you do things a little differently, it's a little disruptive. It's about saying, what's the business's North Star? What are the business's goals? And creating criteria from the business's goals, and then finding clients that meet those criteria. Sorry, it's not finding clients, then it's then putting the criteria against all the clients, weighting that criteria, and literally scoring the clients and coming up with it. So, look, if the business wants to IPO, their criteria is going to be around um steady, predictable revenue, um, growth potential, maybe profitability, maybe low-cost assert, not necessarily. Um, whereas if the business wants market dominance, then their criteria is going to be revenue and net new and you know, very different criteria. So you actually create the criteria from the the business goals, put them into metrics, industry standard metrics, and look, SaaS companies do that well, right? SAS companies have got customer acquisition cost, um, customer lifetime value, customer profit, you name it, they have got metrics. They have nailed metrics. I mean, a lot of customers I've talked to, I talk about metrics, and they're like, oh, what's customer lifetime profit? What's customer lifetime value? Um, but yeah, the one thing SaaS companies do well is metrics, but they do it at the top level. They don't do it at the customer level. So they can't see what customer lifetime profit is per customer. They'll know it for the company and they'll judge company performance at the top end, but they won't put it to the customer level. So all those metrics, you find out what the metrics are, you align them to your business goals, you then rank your clients based on those metrics, and that's when you see your 2080s. So every business is going to have different 80-20s. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

And so what would those um ranking criteria be? Like for example, SaaS, for example, would one of them be software usage or NPS scores and things that maybe show potential that they're going to use it more, and therefore you can upsell, cross-sell, things like that?

SPEAKER_00 14:43

Yes, yes, they can be, absolutely. But rather than looking at from the bottom up, we need to look at it from the top down. So what is the business trying to achieve? And then what criteria does that align to as far as the business goals and then putting them on the client? Whereas a lot of businesses do it the other way around, and every division's going to have a different set of criteria. So your upsell, cross-sell might be something that the sales team are looking at. Um, the customer service team will have another set of KPIs. Everyone's going to have different KPIs, and they're not actually looking at it from the top down. Whereas once you create the metrics from the top down and everyone knows about it, it has amazing ramifications through the whole business because all of a sudden decisions are objective, not subjective. Everyone's got the same metrics and they all know what what they're doing and and and where they're heading, if you like. Yeah.

Plateau Signs And The Value Inflection Point

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Okay. Um, you often work with businesses that have plateaued in their growth. Um, what are some of the early warning signs that this is going to start happening with businesses? Like, what should SaaS companies be looking at to understand why they're plateauing and how they can get past that?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Yeah, good question. Um, so I call it the value inflection point. There's a point in the business where they have gone past scale up. And scale up's really important for lots of businesses, right? You've got lots of different clients coming in, you need to understand which clients work well with, which clients drain the business, which clients, you know, which your high value client, basically. Um, and then they'll typically get into something like scale up. And there's no definition as to what is the right time to identify your high value clients, but it's typically the value inflection point when you've had enough experience and sometimes plateau. And most of the reason that people plateau um companies plateau is because they've got these 80% that are draining, right? So in the beginning, you are everything's growth and every and you're bringing in all these clients, and then you start creating processes to make sure that you're adapting your business to your clients and the clients are getting what they need from you, but you've got so many processes and procedures that you know you're running out of uh bandwidth, and you you might have burnout or um complications, and there'll be teams sort of wanting different things at different times, and there's all sorts of indicators, if you like, in a business that they've hit their value inflection point. And look, most businesses never identify their high-value clients, so they just keep going on and on and on. So there is no right or wrong time, but there's certainly a time that it starts. So, and that the the value inflection inflection point when they're ready, and that's typically when they're plateauing and when things when growth is no longer fun.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

I'd no, I I think yeah, I think everyone can relate to this. Especially, you know, you start SaaS startups, for example, that they'll take anyone and everyone. Um, there's no niche, there's no there's not even processes at the beginning, and then when they get to that scale-up point, it's all exciting, but then that's when things start to go wrong, and it it's really hard to get past those um past those initial numbers.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Absolutely, and this is a perfect way to do that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Um, okay, so identifying high value clients, this sits really well with me because I always have an account-based marketing approach.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Um, what's your experience with account-based marketing? Having worked with a lot of these SaaS enterprises, do you see that as a core strategy in the organizations?

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yeah. Um, it's interesting. I have a focus, I have done a fair bit of work on uh account-based marketing. We did these great little packages that were sent to people. Um, I was working with a um a SaaS uh learning tool, a enterprise um learning tool. And yeah, we created these little packages around learning. And I remember um we did had these cards that were because our I um our ideal customer profile was HR and learning, right? So it's about feel good, feel feeling good. So uh I think it was gratitude journal. It was a bit more than a gratitude journal, actually. I think it was more around tracking, yeah. It was tracking. I we actually created our own book. It's really cool with good habits on the cards. Yeah, yeah. And cards to say how you're feeling today, like feel good cards and stuff like that. And we said that's pretty clever. But yeah, I love account-based marketing, I think it's very important.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah, so it sounds like you know, getting understanding your high-value clients, and then I suppose going after them, gifting is still very much a core strategy of account-based marketing. Um, what are some other marketing strategies, campaigns tactics um you've seen work really well? There's been a massive shift, I think, in the B2B consumer, especially since the pandemic, everyone kind of became, you know, a digital Avenger. They kind of did their own research, they didn't need to speak to sales as much. Um, so what are you finding in in the last maybe five years has worked really well for account-based marketing? For SaaS clients in general.

Uncertainty AI And Doing More With Less

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Uh I actually think the AD20 has worked incredibly well. Um, but I'm biased, right? So I'm very, very focused on that at the moment. Um it's it's about doing more with or doing less and getting more. And I think now in in times of uncertainty, like, you know, God knows what's gonna happen to the economy right now. Most people are uh actually very concerned about their businesses and the uncertainty that that brings. And there's so many things that are are driving that, you know. AI is driving it, uh, the war is driving it, and the impending recession that we're probably gonna have anyway, plus the war is like we're gonna get stagflation. It's it's it's a really full-on. Um, and that's where you really need to have a look at what are your costs and where are your resources going that are not being utilized efficiently, and having an objective way to agree that these costs uh need to be cut, and these resources need to be cut, and how do we get more with less? So, yeah, I just come back to it. It goes back to the 8020 rules.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

It makes a lot of sense because you know, and especially as you mentioned, AI. Um AI can now take over quite a bit of the work that needs to be done. Um so again, yeah, I've tell us about your usage with AI. Is that something You've embraced? Is it something you're concerned about? It's what's um your experience with AI. And does your software use it as well?

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Yes, it does. Absolutely. I am an advocate of AI. And mainly because I am a strategist rather than a tactician. And so I really like, I feel like I've got my own assistant. I literally, you know, bounce ideas off, you know, this is I had these little bits just expand this out. Or um, so yeah, I I think AI is very helpful, but I also see some of the concerns. Um, what happens when it you know becomes sentient? And you know, there are so many what ifs, what ifs, what ifs on AI. Um, however, if you know we're gonna hit a recession and we're gonna have problems with um sourcing um computing, it might be short-lived.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

That's what I was thinking. Um, yeah, it just feels like there's a massive hype of it at the moment. Fair enough. I I'm probably one of those people, but I I also heard, you know, the energy shortage and and all that. So it's it's interesting where he's gonna head. Where do you pivoted?

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah, what do you think is gonna happen?

Why The Software Had To Come First

SPEAKER_01 23:11

I have no idea. I um I'm kind of on the fence. I kind of go between different scenarios, but um just I think as long as you're agile and you're prepared, that's all you need to be. Just you know. That's so true. Just back yourself. Um speaking your software, tell us a bit more about why you developed it, what it does, how does it complement the book?

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Yeah, good question. So I actually um wrote the software first because I looked at how much uh data was actually required. Because um in order to do this properly, you actually have to hook into a whole heap of different um systems, you know, help desk systems and billing systems and accounting systems, CRM systems, and they're all in in very different formats, um, and typically not at a customer level. Again, they're all aggregated up to the company level. And I'm going, whoa, even if I spreadsheets together to do this is hard work. Uh, I need a software tool to do this. It's much easier and normalize it all to the client level. And every one of these systems has got different client IDs. Um, they might not even have it to the client level. So and need to normalize this on a uh a scale, if you like. So that's why I went first to the software and developed the software first, and then I was just gonna release the software, and that's when I said, you know what, this is a really strange concept. Everyone says, What does your software do? Oh, you know, is it like Trello? Is it like you know, it's not like anything. So you can't say most people develop software that is like something else. This is like nothing.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

So I thought, I probably have to explain it first in a book. So that's when I went to the book and wrote the whole concept around what the software actually does. Because it's a one-off software. I mean, it's not something you're gonna run every month. You run it to find your 20% and you might come back in a few years or a year, but you know, it's not a month, it's not a monthly subscription.

Prospects Alignment And A Practical Next Step

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Yeah, it's a good thing you've got a marketing background because you had that idea, like, I need to explain what this does. I feel like that's the biggest challenge in B2B SaaS is um these really clever people invent the software, they're trying to solve a gap in the market, and then they're like, oh, okay, um, no one knows how to use it or that it exists. They kind of miss that whole awareness education piece, um, which is a big challenge. You guys come in. We just yeah, we do our best. Um, can you apply the 8020 rule to prospects, not just customers? I'm just thinking about well, essentially, you know, a lot of the clients that we work with, if you look at their CRM, there's thousands of people in there. And it's really hard discovering who are the ones we should focus on and who are the ones we shouldn't. So just like you do it with customers to find out high value versus low value, can you do it with prospects to find out um, you know, these are the 20% that can really move the needle and they'll move across the pipeline sooner than the others. Is there a way to do that?

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Yeah. So AD20 principle, the Pareto principle, it as I said, it it it it's it works in life. There's uh Tim Burris, you know, the four-hour week. He he based it on AD20. Although I don't understand, four hours sounds like five percent, uh 10% to me, not 20%. But apparently he based it all on the Pareto principle of doing less and achieving more. Um, sorry, coming back to your prospects. So for sure, what once uh an organization has decided what their criteria are, they it will follow the 80-20 growth strategy, which is my methodology, um, you would do it in a in a customer environment, starting with your business uh goals, then your criteria, then applying it to your clients. And then once you understand who your clients are, the first and most important thing you do is use it as a marketing strategy to bring in your prospects. So all you all your marketing would do at that point is just focus on your high value clients or the 20%. So I call them high value clients, basically the 20%ers. It's a high value client marketing strategy, and that's they're your prospects. But I think you're talking about people that haven't actually gone through the process of identifying, is that right? Are you talking about a situation where you haven't identified who your high value clients are?

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Not yet, no. So very much at yeah, at the prospect stage. Um thousands of people in the CRM. Uh maybe we want to host a round table, maybe we want to invite them to an event. How would you identify the best ones for that?

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Yeah, without actually knowing who your high value clients are, you can't then put the criteria on an unknown. But the Pareto principle says you're gonna get 20% of them that will give you the 80% value. But God knows how what the process is to identify. This is my point, right? So everyone's written all these books on 8020, and God's 20% in there, off you go. But how do you find that 20%? With the steps. And I've created a book to find it and a process to to go through the steps.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

What's the book called? Where can we get it? You get me.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Oh, I think I've got a company. Silly me, I should have actually brought it out a lot earlier, shouldn't I? Um, so it is the 8020 growth strategy, how to identify high value clients um for exponential growth at their Cephit. And Amazon. Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yeah. Dear only pleased. Amazing. And so, without kind of revealing too much from the book, um, for any SaaS founders and marketers listening right now, wanting to apply this 8020 framework, wanting to get started, ASAP, what is the first step that they should take? Outside of reading your book?

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Yeah, cool. I don't know. Um, yeah, it is a matter, I it it's not as straightforward as everyone says just identifying you know the 20%. Yeah. But I would say, yeah, contact me, we can talk through it. Um the if you didn't want to read the book, then go through the whole software process. And that is a really good way to find out. But it's a matter of understanding your business as an all-star, being very clear on what those business goals are, and then we can work together to identify the criteria. So the criteria are key, right? You because that's the basis on which everything else then flows from. So you need to get the criteria right. I think one of the things that is a bit of a bonus, if you like, in the whole process is how once you start applying it, you realize that everything sort of becomes a lot easier. The decision making process becomes a lot easier because everyone you're not having as many arguments because everyone now knows why you're doing things and it's all everything's very objective rather than subjective. Um, sales becomes easier because marketing has got a laser-focused strategy on those clients who value the business more than the 80%. That's the other bonus, right? So the 20% care about your differentiators, they care about your unique selling points, and they want to be heard and they want to be treated well. So sales cycles start reducing. Um, and they the conversations become a whole heap of easier. There's not as much objection handling and all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

So, yes, it's just smooth. Actually, I was just thinking that as you were saying, um, one thing that we always say is an advantage of account-based marketing is that you get sales and marketing alignment. Because usually you'll go into an office and you're kind of shocked, you've got sales sitting over here, marketing over there, and they're not talking to each other, and they've got that whole, you know, lead, marketing qualified lead model, and sales is like, no, they're terrible. Um, but with the 8020 framework and account-based marketing, they're working together to identify exactly who those are. And then, you know, when they start working together, that's when the magic happens. So yeah, true.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

I have a uh a content workshop that I go through after we um identify the buyer personas, and the key people that need to attend that content workshop are sales. And it's amazing, you know, the whole idea is you want you um put down pain questions and objections that the salespeople come up with, and we figure out content that answers all those questions. And everyone's singing from the same pin book at the end of it, so they are completely aligned. It's it makes such a difference, and account-based marketing is a very good example of of how that can be aligned.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Yeah. I agree. I love inviting the sales team to these workshops because they have knowledge that's just it's not online, it doesn't exist. You can only get it from talking to people day to day. And same with customer success teams, like they deal with all the actual problems and the problems of the software and everything. So they can tell you like these clients are gonna be calling us every five minutes, or these are the clients that we want to work with because they seem to get it, they've they've got a process and it's all humming along nicely. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

And I love it because you know, sales is my background, so I can talk sales speak.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Well, Christine, thank you so much for being on the show. I think that's an amazing. I'm gonna read your book first of all. And then um, yeah, I definitely want to dive deep down into this 8020 framework, especially with the times ahead of us. I think it's important we all hunker down and get a really good strategy behind us that will allow us to play the long game.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Yeah, that's fantastic. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. Anytime.