Roofing Success

Overcome Business Failures and Rise Stronger: Insights from Chris Zimmerman on Mastering Your Craft

• Jim Ahlin • Episode 226

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Unravel the secret to overcoming business failures and rising stronger with insights from Chris Zimmerman, the resilient force behind At Your Service Roofing. Chris's journey from setbacks to success in the roofing industry is a testament to the power of humility, hard work, and integrity. Through his partnership with John Cenac in Master Your Craft, Chris has revolutionized the roofing business by turning it into a virtual training community. Their collaboration highlights the magic that can happen when complementary strengths and shared values come together, providing incredible value and paving the way for continued success in the industry.

Tackle the emotional hurdles that new entrepreneurs face, such as imposter syndrome and the fear of failure. Through engaging stories and personal experiences, we explore the importance of maintaining confidence, emotional control, and understanding human behavior in business. By diving into the patterns of emotional decision-making, learn how to navigate irrational actions and prevent negative thoughts from controlling your journey. This episode is loaded with practical wisdom on creating effective systems to ensure organizational stability and address systemic issues that can hinder business growth.

Discover how aligning decisions with core values and maintaining integrity can drive long-term success. Chris's insights offer a roadmap for balancing passion, impact, and business in the consulting world. From consulting and business partnerships to understanding human nature, this episode provides valuable lessons on turning adversity into opportunity and building meaningful collaborations. Whether you're an aspiring entrepreneur or a seasoned business owner, Chris's story is an inspiring reminder of the power of resilience, strategic planning, and ethical practices in achieving both personal and professional excellence.

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Jim:

What do you do when your business fails? Your confidence is shaken and you're on the verge of giving up. For Chris Zimmerman, the answer was simple he got back to the basics and started knocking doors. Today, we're talking with Chris Zimmerman of At your Service Roofing. He's here to share his incredible journey of resilience from starting multiple businesses to finally finding success in roofing through humility and hard work.

Jim:

Chris is the owner of At your Service Roofing and a partner with John Cenac in Master your Craft, and with a background in real estate and construction, chris's story is about overcoming failure and building something meaningful. What makes Chris unique is his ability to lead by example. He's not just about running a business. He's about growing teams, learning from every challenge and constantly pushing himself and his team to be better. In today's episode, you'll hear how Chris turned adversity into opportunity, built a business around integrity and continues to drive success in roofing. Let's dive into this conversation with Chris Zimmerman. Welcome to the Roofing Success Podcast. I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here to bring you insights from top leaders in the roofing industry to help you grow and scale your roofing business. Chris Zimmerman, how are you?

Jim:

I'm doing well, man, how are you Awesome At your service.

Jim:

That's me, that's you man. You know we came into, you know, getting a connection through John Cenac. You're down in the Cincinnati area, correct? That's correct? Yep, yeah, yeah, and you've been doing a lot of work with John and that's how we connected and it's like, man, I wanted to get you on the podcast. You're kind of like I don't know his. Are you Robin to Batman yet, or what's the relationship there with John or are you Batman and John's Robin? I don't know which one.

Chris:

now, that's hilarious. There's definitely. You know, I own my own business, I have a few businesses, you know I own my own business, I have a few businesses. You know, I coach football and stuff and so I'm used to being the leader and this has been my relationship with John and the business that we have in our relationship has been very nice for me because it's really the first chance that I've had in a long, long time to be the number two.

Chris:

The first chance, uh, that I've had in a long long time to be the number two, to kind of be the, the behind the scenes guy or the lesser known guy, um, and so, you know, there's always a pride thing, right, I don't want to be robin um, but when, when, when john's as good as he is, it's easy to be like, yeah, great man, you, you, you, you can have the, the limelight or the spotlight, and that that's fine by me. It's actually very, very nice. So, yeah, um, that's a great question. Uh, as far as master your craft, john and I are 50 50 partners in that. Yeah, um, and, and john and I, we have a lot of our, we have a lot our, our values align very, very well, our tactics and our strengths and weaknesses are very uh opposite, which fill in those gaps and makes for a really good partnership.

Chris:

That's right. So, um, you know, mike goldenstein just put out a little promo for roofcon where uh john's and uh superman, uh superimposed on superman and I'm batman. But you're probably right, I'm probably more probably more Robin right now than that.

Chris:

But yeah, you know, he's the superstar, the rock star and I'm happy to have that partnership with him and what we've got going has been really awesome. We just got back from Kansas City yesterday, but we're on the road now together all the time two, three times a month at least and it's been a great ride so far.

Jim:

Yeah, you guys are providing an immense value to the industry. Let's get people to know you a little bit more, though. Outside of Master your Craft, you have at-your-service roofing and started that Talk about your story. How did you get into roofing? Where did you come from? How'd At your Service?

Chris:

get started.

Jim:

Yeah.

Chris:

So technically I started At your Service in 2005, although really we were doing more remodeling. It was my right-hand man, joby, and I. We were doing tile, basement finishes, kitchen remodels, bathroom models and things like that. I've got a background in real estate. My dad was really a pioneer in the single family real estate investor side, and so it was always a lot cheaper if we went in and fixed up our own properties than hiring a company to do so, and so that's kind of where I got my background in the industry to do so, and so that's kind of where I got my my background in the industry. And then I stepped away to pursue some other opportunities. I started a couple other businesses and they did, they did okay. They weren't killing it, they did okay.

Chris:

And it came to a point where I was married, I was my third kid, was on the on the way and I knew the business that I had wasn't going to be the business, and so I was at a low point. Honestly, you know, emotionally I was struggling. I didn't like the taste of of failure or what I considered failure. At the time. I met with my business consultant and he said Chris, you can sell, get a sales job you can make, you know your your X dollars or whatever, and fill your quota in 20 or 30 hours a week it takes most guys 40 or 50, and then take that other time and plot your next move. Your build your next business. And so, um, I had my brother-in-law had been um telling me about this opportunity in roofing and that I should do it. And I remember saying vividly to him you know, I'm not going to knock doors, you know I'm, I'm, I'm too good for that. Um, you know, the pride was was getting me and luckily, uh, I think the the Lord kind of uh checked me and beat me down well enough to say, no, you're not above knocking doors, that's exactly what you're going to do. So, um, I took a sales job doing exactly what my business consultant said, and I did very well.

Chris:

This was this is back when, you know, roofs were 260, 270 a square. I sold a million dollars in my first eight months in the industry, which I think is still pretty good, but back then that was, that was pretty good. And so, rather than plotting my next business, I went to that owner over the winter and I said listen, we've got something here. I can build a sales team. I think there's a lot of things that I can do to grow this company. And he didn't really want to grow, he didn't really want to give up any slice of the pie, so to speak. And I wasn't looking for ownership by any means, just an override on the team that I built and things like that. And he said, chris, if you have a better opportunity, I suggest you take it. And I thought, well, that's pretty sound advice. And so that winter I started developing my.

Chris:

You know, I reopened at your service, but this time not really for remodeling, it was really roofing and that was it and that's been. I don't 14 years ago, something like that maybe Um, and so we've been doing primarily roofing. We do siding gutters and some other things as well, but the vast majority of who we are and what we do is roofing Um, a lot of that is on the claim side as well. Of course we do retail, um, but we're really good at the claim side and so that's a focus of ours and really the last 12 to 14 years have really been focused on residential claims and, and so that's kind of what at your services and kind of how we got here.

Jim:

So back back then, were you doing like, were you doing when you were doing the remodeling side of things? Was that pre real estate crash around the real estate crash?

Chris:

Yeah, so we started that in 2005.

Jim:

And then that 7-8 hit. Is that where some of the motivation that God gave you to go knock doors come from? Did it come from that economic downturn.

Chris:

It did so. I grew up in the real estate industry, but I don't have a passion for real estate. I think it's a great tool. I think it's probably the most valuable, the best tool there is for building wealth, and I see its potential, I see its value, but I don't love it, and so I was. I did like getting my hands dirty. I like doing the work, but it didn't take too long before you're like I don't want to do this for 30 years and so I stepped away. I just there are some other opportunities. I do have an entrepreneurial spirit. I and I hate that word, I think it's tossed around way too casually and so I would say that I'm a business person more than an entrepreneur.

Jim:

I call myself unemployable, Chris.

Chris:

I just call myself unemployable. So there were just a couple other opportunities that I thought, oh, this is fun. I'm a starter, I like starting new things, I like building it. Once it's able to run, I lose interest. And so I did a couple of these other projects which had nothing to do with real estate or construction or anything like that. It was really more in the digital marketing and advertising space, did some things there and then really, like I said, it just was a point where I went I'm not going to feed my family off of this and at this point in my life I'm now in my late twenties I need to make a move, I need to become established, and so I took the sales job as a stopgap, like this was just a means to an end. I need some money while I figure out what I'm going to do.

Chris:

My dad actually had a roofing and remodeling company when I was in high school and college and I was very blessed. He sent me to private school. I went to a pretty darn good university, and so when I got out of school, he goes Chris, do you want to? I'm going to shut down this company unless you want it. And I remember very vividly looking at my dad with this smirk, saying, dad, I don't want to be a roofer, you know, I'm too good for that, or whatever it was. Again, there's that pride. And so he shut down the company. And then it wasn't more than you know.

Chris:

Uh, six years later eight years, something like that where I went back to my dad and I said, well, dad, it looks like I'm going to start a roofing company and you know he looks at me like you gotta be kidding me, right? Um and so um. But. But yeah, I got into roofing, like so many people, as a necessity. I needed, um, I needed a job that I could make some money, where I could control my earnings, where if I just worked hard and long hours and was savvy enough, I was going to make good money.

Chris:

And I did. And it was kind of hard to make that jump, because my last business it didn't fail, but it certainly didn't succeed. And I was questioning myself do I have what it takes to run a business? Do I really, am I capable? Maybe this is harder than I thought, maybe I'm not as good as I thought. And so then I stepped out on my own and we did I mean, the first year we did okay and then we really we did very well and we've really had great success for the most part ever since.

Jim:

I think it's a weird thing. Those failures eat you up for a little bit, right, or even if they're not complete failures, like you're saying, it just didn't work the way you wanted it to, or whatever that is. And I think that there's that term imposter syndrome, right, like when you get it. You know, like I find so many times, you know, talking to contractors that are maybe new or starting out, and I love to ask them how many of their friends and family they've told that they've started the business. And a lot of times it's zero. And and the reason that it's zero is because they, they don't, they, they don't, they don't feel comfortable with what they're doing yet, right, they don't, they don't know that they can produce a good result yet Right?

Chris:

Well, there's certainly the fear of failure is very, very real. The people that are close to you, they see your, your failures in the past, they see your, your weaknesses and your faults, and so, yeah, imposter, imposter syndrome is very, very real. I'm, by nature, a fairly confident person. I think I had a very, very close relationship with my dad and I think that's where that confidence comes from. We spent a half hour. He had to drive me to school because he sent me to private school there was no busing, it was a half hour each way. Sent me to private school there was no busing, it was a half hour each way. So that was an hour a day of one-on-one time with my dad and he was a very savvy, smart man and so most of that confidence comes from that. But, like I said, I'm a fairly, by nature, confident person and I still struggle with that, asking myself and when it comes to at-ear service, that's pretty much gone. And you know, when it comes to at your service, that's pretty much gone.

Chris:

I've been doing this for 15 years or more. I don't deal with that, but I've got, you know, the master craft that I do with John I have actually two. Can you really handle this volume? Or that's not contracting. This is a different world. This is whatever it is. Are you really capable of it? Are you savvy enough to do that? And so it's a. It's a very real thing, for sure.

Jim:

It's a very real thing. It's. It's amazing how it, how even the most like I know, some of the most successful, like some very, very, very successful people, it's just, it's natural. So for those of you listening, like understand that it happens to the best of us, right, Like like there is no one that is immune to it. You know, unless you're psychotic, maybe, you know, unless you're psychotic, maybe you may have to have, you may have to be like a, a real sociopath to to not have any.

Chris:

you know, like, uh, you know, maybe that there's a lot of good that comes from it, though it checks your, your pride.

Chris:

Um and and you know it can ground you. You just have to be aware of it so that you can understand, like, if you let it take control, if you let it dominate your headspace, you're going to be, you know, in a, in a downward negative space and that's, that's no, no space to live in. And so it's good to, it's actually a good thing, I think, to have, but you have to be aware of it and you can't let it control you. You have to control it.

Jim:

Yeah, definitely On those on those half hour trips with dad. Um, what were some of the, what were some of the, the, the, the, the dad isms, what were some of his, his major lessons, that that he, that that he gave you man, like, what were some of the ones that stand out?

Chris:

So one of my, one of my favorites and I don't think he had like a saying necessarily, but it was this concept of when someone says something or does something to you and you allow that to like, eat at you, they're owning you, they're, they're dominating. They said that to you and then they went on with their day and they're not thinking about that. And if you allow that to eat at you and to be in there, they're, they're just, they're beating you all day long. And how are you going to let some other person control your emotional state, your head state? And so there was a real you know, when somebody does something to me that I don't like, they say something or they react a certain way, I very clearly I'm very good at saying that's really out of my control, it doesn't affect me and I'm not going to. It doesn't affect me and I'm not going to allow it to affect me, because I'm not going to let you, uh, own me, I'm not gonna let you beat me in that sense. And so, um, I'm naturally a very forgiving uh, because of that Um and um, that that's. That's a big one, because so many people allow themselves to be ruled by their emotions. And if I can rule you, then I can, I can, I can puppet you by. Just you know, once I learned what your hot buttons are, what your pressure points are, then I can press those buttons and I can absolutely kind of control you and and I'll be damned if I'm going to let somebody do that to me. So that's definitely one that that's gone a long, long way.

Chris:

He also always taught me to observe human nature. Human beings do not behave logically and rationally. In fact it's very rare for them to do so. You would think, oh well, clearly they're going to do X, because that makes sense, and so often they don't, right, they do Y. And then he asked you know, why is it that they did that? Well, I don't, I don't know. That was really dumb, that was yeah, but like it's important that you understand why it is.

Chris:

And so I've been studying and really I shouldn't say studying observing human nature since I was like eight, nine years old, and so I can't tell you how many meetings I have where I'm talking with my team, right, and maybe we're talking about a client, a large project, and they go. Well, we gave them this reason, this reason and this reason. I think they're going to go with us or they're not going to go, whatever it is, and I can often predict people's decision-making and behaviors better than they can predict themselves, because I understand how they're different drivers and different emotions. And and I said, yes, this decision doesn't make sense. But I've seen someone have to make this same type of decision dozens of times and 80% of the time they choose this. So I'm able to predict that.

Chris:

And then I tell my team like this is what I think they're going to do. And then they're like blown away by how in the world would you able to figure that out? I never would have thought that, yeah, that's crazy and it goes. Listen, it's really not that hard. Right, if you most people make assumptions and they will stick to those assumptions till death, and assumptions are fine, you got to start somewhere. But when there's real world evidence and when there's data that comes in that says your assumption's wrong, you need to be willing to change that assumption. And so those are two of the big ones that he did. But virtually every success that I have or every strength or positive thing that I have I can trace back to those conversations in that car ride.

Jim:

That's amazing. Now, in those moments when your team is like, hey, I think they're going to make some of this decision, what are some of those that you see most often that you're like, no, no, no, people always make this decision, even that it's not as logical. They're making the emotional decision there.

Chris:

Well, one that comes to mind is when, uh, you know, I I do a lot of consulting in the, in the roof space, especially over the last two years, and I'll I'll have owners that say, well, this sales guy would never do that to me because I've been so good to him. I've done this and I've done this and I've done this. That person is going to either choose you or me, and it doesn't matter what you've done for them. There are very few people in this world, a very small percentage, that are willing to sacrifice themselves for somebody else. And so you think to yourself, how in the world cause this person make this decision? Well, if they didn't have, if their only other decision was harming themselves, they're going to harm you and they're going to hate themselves for it. And then what they're going to do is they're going to convince themselves that you deserved it.

Chris:

The subconscious has a really hard time. I'm sorry. The conscious mind will not allow you to think that you're a terrible person. So when you're going to do something that you know you shouldn't do, the subconscious mind has to protect the conscious mind and it has to come up with ways to find that, hey, that person that you did that terrible thing to. They actually deserved it, because they did X, y and Z, and so you can actually see those things coming. You can see somebody treating you a way that you're like that's different, that's not how they normally treat me. That's, that's weird, I wouldn't expect that. And I go not how they normally treat me, that's weird, I wouldn't expect that. And I go yeah, they're getting ready to do something to you. They're getting ready to make a decision that's going to harm you and their subconscious mind is basically prepping their conscious mind to allow that decision.

Chris:

And I see that all the time. I see that with homeowners that you're dealing with right. I see that inside of organizations and the relationships between sales and ownership or whoever it is. And then you see that in personal relationships and I have four kids right now and I, you know my kid will be no, my friend would never lie to me because you know we've been friends for so long and we do this and we're this and I go I know you think that and that's that's very admirable and I'm glad that you think that.

Chris:

But the reality is, as soon as the pain that they're going to experience reaches a certain threshold, they will do anything to you in order to avoid that pain, and so most people experience that and they don't understand it. They don't know why and therefore they can't predict it. They can't really resolve it emotionally themselves, um, and so they just go on and they'll make that same mistake next time, or they'll trust the person they shouldn't have, or whatever it is. Um, so I don't know if that answered your question or not. No, it doesn't, it's great.

Jim:

And I think it makes me think of um of team members who end up being around too long sometimes. You know, a lot of times you could see those signs and a lot of times people will justify you can hear it and I guarantee you've had conversations with some people friend group, someone from high school, your cousin, you know what I mean when they're like, yeah, heck, with my employer, they're making all this money, I'm doing it. You know it's that justification for their lack of ability or lack of doing in the business. There's so many things I could see that on the customer side, right Like of how they're trying to get out of the contract with you.

Chris:

Yep, when they start making mountains of molehills or they start questioning things that they never questioned before, yeah, and and and again, that the the real. To someone like me, it doesn't matter that it happened. The question that I want to ask is why did that happen? If I can understand how that did because it's so illogical, it's so irrational so if I can understand how that person made that decision and why they did it, then that's going to give me a lot of information that I can use in the future to avoid the same situation where I think most people just go well, they're just a terrible person yeah, and so then.

Chris:

So then they think, well, the next guy, he's a good person, he's not going to do it to me. And then they do. And then there's a not a habit, but but a pattern of this happening, and then you just become jaded and you don't trust people where I go. No, I know there. People are, in my opinion, inherently good. It's just that when they're put under enough stress and pressure and risk of pain, they're going to behave in a way that protects themselves and they will justify it by any means necessary.

Jim:

Yeah, do you worry about that from a business perspective? Do you do, or do you worry about that more from from a customer perspective, from your business perspective, from your team, from your, from your subs, from your? Where are you looking for the danger, if I can put it that way?

Chris:

Yeah, I mean the customers. It's going to happen with customers and in the roofing space, you know, we might do 500 roofs a year, so 500 customers, and I'm not the sales rep on one of these days. I'm not really a sales rep on hardly any of those, so there's really nothing I can do about that. But in the team absolutely, because if things happen inside the team, then the culture is at risk and then the business is at risk. If a customer screws, you takes advantage of you, it happens, you chalk it up, you move on. It's really not that big of a deal. But when it happens inside the team, the effects are magnified. It can be, it can have a massive effect on the business. And so I think that's where really you. For me, anyway, that's where my eye is definitely going to be on that.

Jim:

I think there was more to the question and I'm kind of drawing a blank, yeah, that's that makes, and that is where the most risk is from a business perspective right, it's always with the team and it's within the culture. You know how quickly the culture can change from with one bad apple, right. Like you know, there's a lot of stuff that can happen there, man, that's right.

Chris:

So one thing I teach in Master your Craft all the time is again, this is my opinion. I don't have any scientific data to support it, but I've just got a lifetime of experience that says that any problem that you have, whether it's in business or personal, it doesn't really matter. It really can be lumped into one of two categories it's either an anomaly or it's systemic. And so in my religious, spiritual, whatever beliefs, we live in a fallen world. There's sin, people do things they shouldn't do, and so anomalies are going to happen. You can't predict them. You can't stop them from happening. They're going to happen. However, as soon as something becomes a pattern, I see it happening repeatedly. Now it's systemic, and any systemic issue can be solved with a system and process. Some of those systems and processes can be pretty easy. Some are very, very difficult. Some are going to take you six processes, systems and processes to finally find the one, and whatever it is. But the way that I've done that in my business is that people become like you said in your example if somebody wants to do something that they know they shouldn't do, they start saying things like well, they don't value me and I do this and this, and they don't do this Right, and that justification starts happening. So I'm not going to be able to prevent that from happening. That's a human nature thing. What I can do is build a system that makes it difficult to do that. So one is, I want to make sure that anytime there's a decision you know some decisions are black and white, but in business there's a lot of great decisions, and so I have a history of. You know, if there's a sales commission, it's like, well, you didn't really perform this duty, but you know, if not, the company just keeps it. Whenever there's that like you're not sure, I always say, like in baseball, the tie goes to the runner. So if there's a gray area, I'm going to give it to my, my employee, um, because that's the way I, that's. That's the right thing in my opinion, um. And so I've got a habit of doing that, and so that way, when they try to justify their terrible actions, it makes it harder for them to do. Or I can sit down and say give me an example of a time that I took advantage of you, that I misled you, that I chose myself over you, because I'm going to ask them questions and start tearing down the narrative that they've built erroneously in their head, and I'm going to make it very tough for them to do what they're about to do. And it's not going to stop them from doing it. They're still going to do it because the stress, the pain, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. I'm not going to stop it, but I can make it very uncomfortable and difficult for them.

Chris:

The other thing that I want to do is compartmentalize my business, and it's not just to prevent this. There's a lot of benefits to it. But you know, most companies in the roofing space, right, the whole company is just sales reps. There's like one admin in the office and an owner, and then the rest of the company is just project managers, right, sales reps, and they're cradle to grave and so they do everything, and so they can leave at a moment's notice and go somewhere else and do it, start their own company and do it whatever it is is.

Chris:

But it's very difficult to have one person who can sell, who's comfortable climbing roofs, who's got enough integrity to not vandalize roofs which is a real issue in our industry who can deal with the adjuster and do all of the repair to replacement and supplementing and write an exactament. And then they got to schedule uh, build the material order, schedule the job, be on site. You know they're doing quality control and I, like you, don't know anything about roofing Like, why are you the quality control guy? And so I want to compartmentalize my business and I want to have people my salespeople don't get on roofs, they just sell, that's it.

Chris:

Lead gen contingencies if it's a claim, and contracts. I've got production guys that can build the order and site manage the actual build. I've got a supplement team that handles all of that. The mental makeup, the strengths and weaknesses that are beneficial to dealing with insurance adjusters in the claim process do not lend well to sales. Salespeople tend to be highly emotional and if you take an emotional person and put them into the negotiation or a process with the claims, it's not going to go well. And so I segment my business that way and I think that it solves a lot of issues, but one of those is the issue that we're talking about and you're describing.

Jim:

Yeah, I think that's what you know to build a business. If you're actually building a business, you're thinking of risk reduction, you're thinking of succession planning, you're thinking of things, that of a structure that will allow for the business not to go out of business, right Like you need it to continue. And I've seen too many companies and owners I'm sure you talk to them all the time too. Man, my top sales rep left and now we're doing 50% of what we did last year. My two top sales reps left and they went and started 50% of what we did last year. My two top sales reps left and they went and started their own company and they're competing with me now and they're well you know, as private equities moved into the space, the question I'm asking myself is what are they buying?

Chris:

Cause I, you know, I used to wonder what these other companies look like. But now, with my consulting, I've got a good look at the inside of these companies and I don't care if it's a one man operation, if it's, you know, doing 500,000, if it's a small team doing three to 5 million, or the big boys, like most of these companies, are shell companies. They are, they don't I go. What is that private equity buying? They don't have real estate, they don't have a fleet of vehicles and W2 crews and equipment and tools. You know, you can make an argument that they have a brand, although I think I can make an argument that a lot of them don't really have a brand, and I can say that same thing for myself. Like, my brand is not strong in Cincinnati or nowhere where it should be. That wasn't my focus for a long time, um, and so they're really just buying a group of a hustle, like a, a group of people that are out there just selling Um, and there's money to be made. I get that, but I go, or, you know, I I split with my partner.

Chris:

Um, I was a 50-50 owner of At your Service Roofing and I bought my partner out in early 21. Yeah, early 21. And in the negotiations it wasn't going well. And I go well, one thing we can do is just shut the company down. Let's just dissolve it. And his attorney was basically like, well, that would be insane, why would you do that? And I go, I can shut the doors and just open up Zimmerman Roofing and I'm going to do the same volume I did last year.

Chris:

So you know, again, these private equity companies that are coming in, and especially some of the companies that are being bought up, are ones that I know. And I go. I just maybe, I'm just not a good VC guy, I don't know. But I don't know what they're buying because it's not really a business. It's possible I would. I hope not. But yeah, there's, like I said, there's shell companies and there are good ones out there. Trust me, I train a lot of good ones that are really good that I'm envious of when I leave and I go man, that guy's got a really good brand, he's really built a business. Man, what a great culture. But a lot of them there's really not. It's just it's. It's an owner, an admin and a bunch of salespeople. That's it.

Jim:

That's how this podcast got started. Like, I was talking to some of like, to the ones that you're talking about, that you're like, ooh, you're doing, you're doing good. And then I'm talking to the other, some other people, and I'm like Whoa, you're you got? You got, you got a lot to learn, or you have there's some, there's a big, some gaps that you need to fill here, and that that's actually how the podcast came to be with. I wanted those people that have those struggles, or having those struggles, to hear from people who are, who are, who are doing it well, and that that's the whole concept of what we do here. When you're talking about private equity, you know, and, and, and even anyone buying a business, right, uh, I was talking to, uh, uh, a big um, it's probably the largest, uh, business broker in HVAC, uh, the other day, and he told me. He said you know, I never have anyone call me asking if they could buy a job, right, I've never had that phone call.

Jim:

He's never had the phone call. The guy sold a lot of HVAC companies and still does, and he has never picked up the phone and someone saying I'm looking to buy a job.

Chris:

It's amazing how, if you are the company with, well, and that goes into the consulting, you know I'm at a point where, in your service I'm you know I really hate cliches, but I guess I'll just dive in I'm at the point where I'm finally working on the business, not in the business. I tried it, uh, four or five years ago and, um it, it really it was outside and just some like disruptions that were really anomalies, um, and I was like, oh, that didn't go well, back into it, um. But I'm now, uh, at the point, um, where where I'm out of the day to day a lot and I'm actually I was just my general manager. Like a half hour ago we were chatting about maybe I need to go get another office, like a studio office, and literally not be in here, like come into the office, edit your service one day a week.

Chris:

But talking about, you know, being in consulting, that's a different story, because there is no difference. Like, you are the company, you are the brand, right? So I had a guy that was like, why don't you have, you know, an assistant that's answering all these questions on on facebook? And I will. They would have to have my knowledge and experience, they would have to have my ability. Like that you, you can't. Like in all my travels right outside of john there's like three or four guys that I could name that I would say, if they answer your question, just trust it complicitly, like it's going to be right, like there's that few guys out there and I go. So there is no right. I can't send my assistant to go into a company and go to a private training with them. They're gonna be like no, this isn't what we paid for, this isn't what we want, right.

Chris:

And so consulting is not necessarily where I, where I, and there's no exit value either, right, like who's going to buy a consultation company Like you? Once that person's gone there, there is no business. So at the same time and that's why I hate the business of consulting I think I find us in a position where the industry needs. I feel that John and I are filling a demand. We're supplying the demand, but we're not doing it for the economics of it, the money of it. We're doing it. It's desperately needed and John and I we align very well because we have very, very similar values and what we're doing, the effects of what we're doing is, is definitely, uh, in line with our values and kind of fill it fulfilling our mission, um. So I hate the business of consulting um, but I'm loving the, the results and the impact that we're having.

Jim:

Yeah, it's awesome. Let's talk a little bit about that. Like, how did you guys, how did Superman and Batman come to be? I appreciate you switching that up and then no longer Robin.

Chris:

I don't think I didn't notice. I appreciate you. That's a that's a long story. I I'll tell it. I'll try to be brief.

Chris:

John came out with NTS, the NTS reports, and I am I'm as far as business, I'm an innovator, I'm a creator, I like creative, strategic thinking, and so I grasped what he was. The information that he presented the light bulb for me, went off and I went. He was the information that he presented. The light bulb for me went off and I went. Oh, I know what to do with this info. Um, and so, uh, for the first year, year and a half, of of NTS, uh, it turns out I didn't know this, but I was the largest user of the NTS reports. I was his number one client, and you know we're not a big company. Um, I'm not a scale guy. Um, you know we're not a big company, I'm not a scale guy. You know, at that time we were probably doing four or five million a year, and so there's companies out there using NTS that are way, way, you know, national companies, but they didn't know how to use it. And so I went to one of John's classes one of his first classes was in Cincinnati and I went to one of John's classes.

Chris:

One of his first classes was in Cincinnati and I went to that and we had an interaction and I, literally the very first thing I ever said to John and I'll keep it PG, but we're at a break and I said, hey, I want to just introduce myself and say thank you, but seriously, f? You. And I looked him right in the eyes and said F? You. And he kind of smiles and he's taken back, he goes well, that's, you know, aggressive. And I said, listen, I don't, you know, uh, I'm just making a point that a lot of what you're doing, I've been doing and I've made a lot of money. Um, I've been hunting discontinued shingles for, at that point, you know, eight years, and so you're out here giving out all the secret sauce and I don't appreciate it. Um, however, he opened my eyes to a lot of other things and taught me a lot of things. So that was our first interaction, um. And then, um, about a year after that, um, which would have been geez, this would have been 22, just two years ago Um, he, uh, he calls me ago, he calls me up and he says Chris, I want to come in town.

Chris:

Yeah, he calls me and he goes hey, I want to introduce myself. I'm John Cenac. I said I know who you are, bud, and I go. The question is, why are you calling me? So he says, well, I want to come in town. I don't live far away, I'm about an hour and a half away. I want to come in town, take you out to dinner, your team, whoever and I want to take you out to dinner and say thank you and I go. So you're going to drive in and spend a couple of grand on a big dinner at a nice steakhouse to say thank you for me buying reports. And he goes yeah, I said John, I'm. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I I there. Chris, you're the largest user of NTS in the country and you're clearly process. You've built a process that's successful and if I can learn what you're doing, I can teach other people how to do that and I can sell more. Nts reports affect more people in the industry. So I said, sure, come on in town. So we do that. We had a nice dinner, had fun, we went out, had drinks. John and I have a lot of commonality there. We're both pretty bougie, we both love good bourbon, as a lot of other things in common as well. So we just had fun. It was a good night.

Chris:

A month or two goes by and he calls me up and he says I see that you're registered for the Nashville class. I said, yeah, I'm coming in town, I'm going to bring a couple of my people and you know we're excited for your class. And he goes well, would you mind speaking? And I go, john. You know, if you ask me for a favor, I'm going to do it. But, my God, I speak on what? Well, just put something together, you know, with some slides and whatever, and how you do things and walk people through.

Chris:

This was 36 hours before the event. And I go, john, I I'm not a speaker, like I've never really done anything like that before. So I go back in my office, I whiteboard out a flow chart on how I use NTS reports. I asked my designer to come in and he comes in and puts together a keynote presentation, makes it all pretty and boom, I don't even have time to like practice it. Right, we just made it and I know it. It's all up here. So I go down to tennessee and um and I give this um presentation. I had to leave right away because I had to get back for my my son's football practice. I was coaching, so it's a five-hour drive home.

Chris:

So by the time I'm still on the road and the class is over, john calls me and he goes. Chris, chris, there's 30 guys here that want your contact information. They want to get a copy of your presentation. You know everybody's kind of talking about what you presented. That was really great and I was shocked. I was like this is just what we do, doesn't everybody do this? So I, literally I was completely shocked. It was not what I was expecting.

Chris:

He calls me up another two weeks later, goes hey, I've got a two day class in Minnesota. Would you be willing to go up there and do it again? I go, it's the off season. Yeah, sure, I'll go. He goes okay, well, what do I need to pay you? I said, john, you've made me a lot of money, whether you know it or not, I don't. I don't it no big deal. So we do those same response. And so then he goes well, let's like do you just want to like go on tour? All right, you know, until season starts? Sure, so we did.

Chris:

I did probably 15 of those. I don't know 10, 15 of those across the country, um, so we're driving home from one I think it was cleveland or chicago, I don't somewhere where we were driving together and and I said, john, listen, man, I really appreciate this. It's been a lot of fun season starting back up and, uh, quite honestly, I feel like I've paid my debt to you, um, and I don't really want to travel like this. I've got, you know, a family and um, so I'm, I'm done, this is my last one, and he goes. Well, I'm, you know, that's. I'm sad to hear that. You know, I have a lot of fun doing this. I said, yeah, no, I like it too.

Chris:

Like, at this point, we're, we're buddies, um, and he goes well, what are you going to do? And I said, well, I'm going to run my roofing business, I'm going to do it all on zoom and we'll just do one or two a month and I'll just sit down and we'll talk about a hot topic and I'll charge them, you know, whatever it is, and like it'll be some nice little side hustle money, but I'll be able to help all these guys out, but I don't have to travel. And John gets really, really quiet. And am I allowed to swear on this?

Jim:

podcast I don't know Okay.

Chris:

So he gets quiet. And if you know, john, that's a, you know I'm like, ooh, he doesn't. He doesn't get quiet very often, right, like, and I'm thinking that I just cross a line that I make him mad, Like, is this the end of our friendship? So he gets quiet and he's driving, you know, and all of a sudden he goes fuck, that's way smarter than what I'm doing. And uh, I started laughing and he goes well, I don't want to step on your toes, but you want to just do it together. And I said, no, a hundred percent, man, like, you're the superstar, like, yeah, let's just do it together.

Chris:

And that was literally that was where master your craft was born, um, and today, that's really the heart of master your craft is this community we're building Um. It's a private training group, so, um, you have to apply for it, um, and once you're in um, we meet. We do three trainings a month. John leads one, I lead one, and uh, we have a guest speaker that we bring in Um, and it's all roofing related. It's not necessarily, it's mostly claim centered, Right, um, but that's where Mastercraft was really born from. And then we also, you know, we were in Kansas city yesterday doing a large loss consultation. There's a contractor that's got a 25, 30 building project. He's struggling through the claim process. So we go out there and do our testing and get our information. Obviously, we travel around the country and do these group classes and then we also do private trainings together or solo things like that. So that's kind of where Master your Craft was kind of born.

Jim:

It's funny where, the, where paths lead you Like I'm a big. I'm a big like I love, I love the, the, the kind of what they refer to as where luck comes from. Right, you know where opportunity meets preparation, right, that's where luck comes from. And a lot of and a lot of times, it's just if you, if you, if you, if you're just doing the right thing all the time and you're getting, you know you're moving along that path and all of a sudden, these, like these things come about in your life that you're like, oh man, this is, yeah, people want to call it you know whether it's god or the universe or karma, whatever it is.

Chris:

But you're exactly right if you continually are just doing the right thing, yeah, putting good out into the world, um, there's, there's laws of attraction, right, um, and and honestly, that's where, in the end, you know, john and I our relationship started because there was some mutual benefit.

Chris:

But if we didn't connect on a value level, uh, and weren't friends, um, and didn't have that, um, it would have ended right there and I would have done a couple of his courses or trainings and it would have been a fun 15 minutes in, uh, my 15 minutes of roof fame, for whatever that's worth, and it would have just been a cool story to tell or whatever. And that would have been a fun 15 minutes in, my 15 minutes of roof fame, for whatever that's worth, and it would have just been a cool story to tell or whatever, and that would have been it. But because our values align so well and we actually developed a, really, I mean, there's not a day that goes by that we don't talk two or three times. I think both of our wives are jealous of you know what I mean. Like you speak, you talk to Chris more than you talk to me or you talk to.

Chris:

John more than you, you know. But we're also getting to the point where we're doing some really cool stuff. And I said this to John I'm starting a new business and I don't want to say much about it at this point, but obviously he knows about it. He goes, chris, you know, I don't want to step on your toes or be invited to a party I'm not invited to, but but, man, I would love to be a part of that. That sounds really interesting.

Chris:

I said, john, this isn't about I want this percent, or this is mine or that's yours. I go, let's, let's just go have fun and do really cool shit together. Yeah and uh, he kind of laughed and he's like yeah, that's exactly how I feel. So, um, this isn't about. Oh well, this is, this was my idea, and so I'm going to do this Like I don't. Who cares, man, like we. We both do well financially, we're pretty secure, we make good money. Let's not think about ownership or money or any of those things. Let's just think about what effect can we have on this industry while having a lot of fun doing it. And it turns out that you can have quite a bit of an effect on the industry. We're starting to we're starting to prove that.

Jim:

That's awesome. I think there's a like you know, I think we're I'm. You know well, over 200 episodes of this podcast now, two twenties, some somewhere in the two twenties by the time this comes out, and and I'll tell you, like a common thread, that I've like if I could, if I put all of the episodes in AI and I said what is the like, what's the common thread between all of these owners, all of the owners who have been successful or have expressed a, have expressed that they, that they're always trying to do the right thing Right.

Jim:

And and it's like and we were talking about this, you know, earlier and the other day, or whatever, and and I and I wanted you to kind of go into that because I think that it's it's the common to me, it's the common thread between all success and it and it kind of it. It it that the story about the new business with John it's kind of just that same thing. It's like, oh, you know, like we're all just, we're just, we know that we're doing the right thing and we have the right motivations, that the people you have around you, or the, just the people that you could call on if they're, if they're doing the right thing, like the, the groups that you're around, if it, whether it's RSRA or Master your Craft or all these different places where there's some really good people who are all just like everyone is trying to just be on this path of taking care of their team, taking care of the homeowners, taking care of you know, their families.

Chris:

People want to belong to something. It's an innate human nature, right? We want to belong to a team, we want to belong to a cause. I think it's Simon Sinek that talks about the just cause that your company has to have, a just. If it's just about coming to work and making money, no one's going to stick around for that. They're going to stick around for a little while, they're going to make their money and they're going to move on. But when there's a just cause, that everybody has that mission, that they're doing that that greater uh mission, um it, that's where you really build culture, that's where you can really build something special.

Chris:

And so you know, I'll do a shameless plug here, and I don't know, um, how soon this airs. I don't, I don't know, but roofcon is in a few weeks and, uh, about a week or two ago, um, hunter Ballou of RoofCon and Revolt asked if I'd be willing to do a keynote speech or whatever presentation, which is an awesome honor. I was like, yeah, absolutely, that sounds like a lot of fun. I want to do that. But you know, so I go. What do I? What do you want me to talk about?

Chris:

Because I'm used to talking about claims. I'm used to talk about roofing and shingles and documentation and evidence and and he goes no, no, no, no, no, not, not that Right, like you've got a breakout speaker, that's when you talk about that stuff. And so this to me was like wide open and, um, I had a topic I thought you know and, and John and I this, john and I were in Memphis together when Hunter gave me the invite and so the drive home we're talking about some different things. What should I be talking about? What are some things? We're kind of flushing it out, and I had something that I thought was pretty good and that's where I've been kind of my mind's been. And last night driving home from the airport at 1130 last night, it kind of the light bulb goes off.

Chris:

And it's literally about the exact same doing the right thing and everybody you know human nature. Like I said earlier, I believe that inherently we are good. It's just that we live in a fallen world and there's a lot of external forces and pressures and things like that and everybody makes mistakes and does things they shouldn't do myself obviously included. But our nature is that we want to do the right thing. Some people have a really hard time understanding what is the right thing, and that was really hard for me to understand because I had a really positive childhood and upbringing. My parents were married all the way through. My dad passed away, unfortunately seven years ago, but they were married. My brother and sister were older than me. I was the baby. They took really good care of me. We're still close. I just had, I got a good education, my dad sent me to private school and this, and that I don't have trauma in my life, at least not that I'm aware of. So I've got a lot of advantages there and so when I think about doing the right thing, it's not that hard. I can hear my dad's voice in my head when I have that, that struggle, that decision, and it becomes very clear. But a lot of people don't have that, um, you know, a lot of people don't have a positive relationship with their dad or their parents, uh, or they have a lot of trauma in their life and things like that, and so some of the people just aren't in their life and things like that. And so some of the people just aren't enabled, with the right tools, to know what the right thing is. Some people have been reactionary their whole life and it's just this as simple as pleasure and pain. Hey, this decision sounds painful. This one sounds pleasurable. Well, that's an easy decision. I'm going to do this. Or I think myself, and hopefully a lot of people out there have been given the tools to think it might be pleasure today, but it's pain down the road. Do I really want to do this? Let me think through this and really think about how it affects myself, how it affects other people. So one we want to do the right thing inherently, but a lot of us don't know how to do the right thing.

Chris:

Or we feel we've been told or taught that if somebody else does something wrong to us, then we're allowed to do something wrong to them. And I was actually teaching a class in Columbus and a guy came up to me at the break a contract and he goes. Well, in this situation I would do this. And I said, well, man, that I got to tell you that sounds really disrespectful and I I wouldn't advise ever doing that. And he goes. Well, he was already disrespectful to me and I said, okay, so if he's disrespectful to you, then you can be disrespectful to him. And he goes, yeah, and I go. I got to tell you, man, I got four boys at home and I tell them all the time I go why did you hit your brother? Well, he hit me and I go.

Chris:

So if someone else does something to you that gives you permission to then do something you're not supposed to do, like, your behavior needs to align with what I have taught you. Your behavior should be right Because they're still children, but as an adult, your behavior shouldn't be influenced and controlled by what external forces and other people are doing. Your behavior should be controlled by your own core values, your own sense of right and wrong. If somebody does something wrong to me, that doesn't give me the right to do something back wrong to them. But a lot of people have been told that. They've been taught that and it's a, it's an easy fallacy to believe.

Chris:

So I love what you said there, that that the core common principle between all of the the people that you've met are the ones that you feel are successful, or whatever it is.

Chris:

You know this, this common theme of doing the right thing, and it is if you and again, whether it's God or the universe or karma or whatever you want to, whatever you want to call it, that's fine, but there are, if you put that good out there, you're going to be, you're going to attract that same thing back. You're going to have people that are jaded and you know, in the industry and they've been burned by a bunch of owners, and then they're gonna come and see you and they're probably gonna be very weird, leery of you, right, like, oh, here's another, like he's, he's gonna be a snake because nobody's really does that good or whatever, but they'll be, but they'll watch and they'll watch and then they'll, they'll test. Then, once they come on board, they're going to, but eventually, and you're going to have people that want they've got their just cause, they've got their group that they belong to, and that's going to turn into culture and that's going to turn into growth and revenue and, ultimately, profit.

Jim:

And so again yeah. What advice could you give someone on determining, like, what is the right thing, what's a framework for making that decision?

Chris:

Yeah, well, I don't want to give away my entire roof. No, I'm just kidding. So this is very, very simple and that's so much in this world requires a 30,000 foot view. We're just, we can't see the forest through the trees. We got to get up high and it gives you so much clarity. So in the business world, at at your service roofing, and it's very, very simple, the the what to do is very simple. Actually, doing it requires discipline and is a lot tougher.

Chris:

But I asked myself two questions. The first question is if I've got a decision to make and there's two decisions or two choices, which one is best for the long-term health of this business? Because I understand that we all eat from this business and if this business goes down, we all go down. If this business takes off, we all go up with it, and so it's not what's good today, it's what's best for the long-term health of the business. And the second question I ask is which of these decisions or which of these choices best aligns with our mission statement and core values? And I can tell you that I've had dozens, hundreds of difficult decisions. But when I asked it inside of that framework, with those two questions, 95, 99% become very, very clear. So not only does it become very clear on which decision to make, but it becomes incredibly easy to justify that decision.

Chris:

Because if I make the wrong decision, I mean I chose correctly at the time, it just turned out, things happened and it didn't work out. And if my team comes in and go, chris, why would you do that? Look at what it resulted in. And I go well, let me tell you why.

Chris:

And so now, not only will they understand, but I think there's a level of respect that gets built, and so I always tell my team it's not what's good for me, you know, it's not what's good for this company tomorrow, you know, or today, it's about the long-term health of the company and that any decision that I make, you know, I talked to a guy today that owns a company, a roofing company. He's a great guy, great company, and he's got a person that's been with him for a long time and he let them go and they're suing him and trying to claim discrimination or whatever it is. But if I have to sit in a court of law which I literally might have to do one day I can justify every decision that I've ever made, because it all boils down to those two things, and it might've been the bad decision, but at least I know why I made it and I can justify it and I can I can be accountable to it.

Jim:

Yeah, and it's with the right intention, right Like I think there's like that intentionality behind it of of doing the right thing, what's best for the business, what's best for the situation long-term, not short-term, you know it's. It makes it much.

Chris:

Yeah, lifting company owners are incredibly short-sighted, I mean it is all.

Jim:

It's talented man.

Chris:

It is I mean you were in those early days, I mean you're in marketing, my God, how many guys go. Well, I gave you some money and it's been two and a half months and I haven't blown up yet. I need my money back, or I'm leaving, or whatever it is, and you're like, dude, it doesn't work that way.

Jim:

Like marketing's a long-term play Right and we have to understand and give ourselves some grace in our business. I think too right that that this is a lot. It doesn't just happen overnight. Now you hear those success stories of man. This company went from zero to 50 million and you know, whatever boy I bet they there was something that was built before that right, like there was a lot of skillset.

Chris:

Yeah, there's just a, a random anomaly, something crazy happened that they just you know that I hate to call it luck, I mean that's. It's not luck in my opinion, but you know the timing just happened, the timing there can be timing in it when opportunity meets preparation, right.

Jim:

So you know you may have gone from zero to you know whatever 20 million, 10 million, you know whatever the big number is for you like or have seen in the industry. But I promise you like, I know a lot of those stories that get told and it's hilarious to me how many of those stories get told. And I know the people inside of the company and I know their experience right, and it's like you know they have this whole other. They have the skill, a skill set that was built that they're not starting from zero, right, like.

Jim:

but you don't see that they're not starting from zero right like there's this, that's right, and then a good storm hits and boom Maybe that's a good question to kind of wrap this up with the business goes away. You said, hey, man, there was a point in time where you're like I could start Zimmerman Roofing, I could go and do this, I could do this again. We take the business away, the finances away and the team away, but you get to keep your knowledge that you've gained. What would you do to start over?

Chris:

Oh, my goodness. Well, the nice thing about it in roofing is it's quite easy to start over, and so it doesn't take much to. You know, you got a truck and a ladder and a couple hundred bucks in your pocket and you're a roofer, yeah. And so, wow, you know, for me personally, like I can't separate the heart from it, like I have a passion for helping homeowners, I feel that they are preyed upon by multiple different people or industries and that's just an injustice, right, like I hate to see it. And so that's really where my heart lies is just helping protect those people from being preyed upon. So that's why I love residential. And I have a lot of guys that go Chris, you're, you're, you know, you're so good at claims and you consult these large losses, why don't you just go get your own large losses and I go. Well then I'm just helping like a corporation, a property management company or whatever. Like I don't, I don't get any joy from that, and so. But when I'm helping that homeowner, that's in this like David versus Goliath situation that brings me a lot of joy. So I don't, I think I would stay in in residential.

Chris:

I love the residential side. There is a beauty of if, if, if the company went away just doing consulting and not having to manage people, because I don't love that. I love my people. I don't love managing them. I don't love I'm more of a another term. I frigging hate a visionary Like I want to see.

Chris:

Hey, this is where we're going, this is what it could be, this is what we need to do. I'm not going to coddle your feelings the whole way there. My attitude is here's what, if you want to be a part of this, get in or get out, but make the decision now. I don't care either way, but this is where we're going, and so that makes me a pretty poor manager, and so, with the amount of knowledge that I have at my experience levels, I think I would probably just go into consulting.

Chris:

I would find 10 to 20, 30 companies that really align with my vision, that really align with my values, and I would. I would pour into them because I would be able to protect homeowners through them. And it's kind of humbling actually sitting here thinking about it, because you're asking me like, if you took it all away, what would you go do? And I'd be like probably exact same thing I'm doing now, which tells me that I'm in a better spot than I may have really thought about or realized before. You asked me that question, but I don't think I would change a ton, yeah.

Jim:

But the mission would still be to help homeowners. Chris, this has been awesome man. Thanks for coming on. This has been another episode of the Roofing Success.

Jim:

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Jim Ahlin

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