Roofing Success
The Roofing Success Podcast is a show created to inspire roofing contractors to achieve optimal success in their roofing businesses. The host, Jim Ahlin, is the co-author of the book, "Internet Marketing For Roofing Contractors, How to TRIPLE Your Sales and Turn Your Roofing Website Into an Online Lead Generation Machine", and Co-Founder of Roofer Marketers, the Digital Marketing Agency for the roofing industry. On each episode, Jim will be sitting down with industry leaders to talk about their processes, the lessons they learned, and how to find success in roofing.
Roofing Success
Most Roofers Are Doing Referrals ALL WRONG—Here’s the Fix with Steven Ragsdale
Most roofers WANT referrals, but they’re going about it ALL wrong. They chase realtors, insurance agents, and past customers without a clear strategy. But what if you could build a referral machine that feeds your business on autopilot?
In this episode, we dive deep with Steven Ragsdale of Blacksmith Roofing, who cracked the code to scaling a $6M+ roofing company WITHOUT storm chasing, door knocking, or buying leads. Instead, he built a highly profitable, referral-driven roofing business by doing things differently.
✅ The number one reason most roofers struggle with referrals (and how to fix it)
✅ Why “Hobby-Based Marketing” is the secret weapon for endless leads
✅ How hiring the right sales team doubles your revenue
✅ Why focusing on the RIGHT customer experience fuels unstoppable growth
If you want to build a roofing company that thrives year after year without chasing the next storm, this episode is for you.
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How do you scale your roofing business to $6 million plus without storm chasing, without relying on door knocking and without buying leads? Steven Ragsdale of Blacksmith Roofing figured it out. He built a highly profitable referral-driven roofing company in Oklahoma a market known for insurance restoration by doing things differently. In this episode, you'll learn how hiring the right sales team can double your revenue, why hobby-based marketing and we coined the term on this episode is the secret to getting referrals on autopilot, and the real reason why most roofing companies struggle with growth, and how to fix it. If you want to build a roofing company that thrives year after year without chasing the next storm, this is the episode for you. Let's get into it with Stephen Ragsdale from Blacksmith Roofing.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Roofing Success Podcast. I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here to bring you insights from top leaders in the roofing industry to help you grow and scale your roofing business. Hey, we got Steven Ragsdale back with Blacksmith Roofing, broken Arrow, oklahoma. How are you, brother? I'm good man. How are you Good? Good to have you back on. You know, we were talking a week or so ago maybe a couple of weeks ago now about you know, kind of an update on the company, the growth that you guys have had. Let's for people who didn't listen to the first episode with you, let's give them a little intro to yourself and Blacksmith and then we'll get to talking about all the fun stuff you're doing.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, man, I think last time we met we were talking I think we were like a two to three million, maybe flirting with four million dollar company at the time, and I feel like that was probably three or four years ago and so since that time we have now we're sitting about a five and a half million dollar company. We'll probably flirt with six, maybe even seven million this year, just in the roofing side. You know we've done this now about 12 years and my business partner he came from the windows and siding industry prior and so him and I sometimes in the wintertime when things were slow for fund money, we would install windows and stuff just to help with the hunting ventures and different things like that. Right, and our wives were happy that we were out of the house. So after a couple of months of being there, but, um, over time that kind of just grew and he was like you know, with the connections we have with installers that he's worked with for over 20 years and everything, he was like we should uh look at starting a window division. So we did that and you know we probably only did a quarter of a million this year.
Speaker 2:This is our first year and we didn't market it, we didn't do anything. It was just word of mouth, and so this year, though, we have a window salesman dedicated to that, so I think that part of the industry will really grow. For us, obviously, roofing is still our main deal. I think that's the biggest thing that we see. A lot of times, at least in our market. Roofing companies just become GCs of everything, right, and so the we're really big on just being roofers, and now we're just going to be really big on being window guys, right, so that's going to be what our focus is. We did. We're not looking to grow other trades, but this one just kind of fit really well in the home for us.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's awesome Finding those complimentary services offering service offerings, but also having the experience in it, right, your business partner, having the experience in it, you know, gives you guys a definite boost in that right. You know, when we were talking the other day, I mean you guys are in, you know, broken Arrow, oklahoma. So the Tulsa area, you know Oklahoma, is known to be a storm restoration market right.
Speaker 1:More so in Oklahoma City, but definitely the you know your area also. But what was fascinating to me is that that's not what you guys are doing. That's not how you're growing. So I wanted to start off by talking about. You know, like the big question really is how do you scale a roofing business in a retail model without chasing storms in a storm market? Like what do you? You know, what are you guys doing?
Speaker 2:Man, it's crazy, it's almost Sunday school. Answer right, you treat people right and it'll just grow. You take care of the customer and stop worrying about the money and the money will follow that Right, and we've really made that model the whole culture of our company. Even from the last time that we spoke, me and Preston did primarily all the sales we would do everything because you know, and I think a lot of roofing business owners and roofing companies are set up that way we kind of get scared to think about delegating out Right, which, especially with the majority of the market and the way they pay their salesmen, you know the way the commissions are broke down and where it's a heavy percentage of the profitability and things like that. And we looked at it and we like even looked at how suppliers are ran supply houses and how they they pay their outside sales reps houses and how they pay their outside sales reps, and I'm like you know what. Those are way bigger companies than roofing companies but they pay their salesman a decent salary, right, and then they pay them a smaller percentage but there's bonuses and things like that. So we changed our structure up a little bit, but what it allowed us to do is be able to bring in an in-house project manager that he has paid literally just to manage all the jobs, warranties, repairs. So communication on that front is, after a salesman sells and everything, that production guy can come in and make sure everything goes through the whole process super clean, super smooth. But I don't tell my sales guys that you can just you relax after you sell the job, because I think that's the biggest mistake we make in sales too. Right, You're very involved, you want to show that you care. You weren't just trying to get a signed deal and then you don't care about them.
Speaker 2:We also have a full-time office manager that does all of our stuff that you know with the insurance paperwork. She helps with marketing. I mean we really got a all-star office manager but we kind of just got blessed with those roles. And then our sales manager but we kind of just got blessed with those roles. And then our sales team. When we went to interview them and actually grow our sales team, we made sure that they were like-minded people.
Speaker 2:When we look at our family, we have three salesmen and they're all easily $2 million salesmen each and they're good people and they care about the customer. And I had a $2 million salesman. Walk in the interview last year and he would be a $2 million salesman, but he does not fit our culture and I feel like we said no to him and told him he was nothing personal or anything else. But, man, we do things together after hours, we do vacations together as a group and we want everybody to feel like a legit family, and each one of us got each other's back. Want everybody to feel like a legit family and we each one of us got each other's back. I feel like that culture again sounds sunday school answer because you asked you, you're on a camera, right, and it sounds pretty. I have nothing else to show that. That's not the reason why we've grown.
Speaker 2:Um, because our customers see it. Um, we take care of every warranty deal. We, we create leaks too, right, and so everybody wants to talk about the perfect stuff. But I really think handling the problems that we've created you know, like when I say that, but like we have a week or we have whatever we, we handle our screw-ups and we pay for them. We make them right. We don't fight on that. Um, there's always a fairness level right of what's actually going on siding or something in correlation to the roof. But, um, you got to be smart in how you take care of your people, because we are 100% referral-based company. The only thing we pay for is SEO, got it.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about that referral-based growth a little bit, because that's, you know, that's what everyone wants right. Everyone wants referrals. Of course your close rate's going to be higher, but to me it's like you know you can't just go out. I mean you can, in a way, I have a strategy for going out and buying more referrals in the future, but it's you know. What year did you guys start again?
Speaker 2:We started. We've been around since 2013.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I want people to have that context right we're, we're, we're what? 12, 15, what what? Yeah, 12 years in now, 12 years in now, right, so you?
Speaker 1:know, let's talk about, maybe, the journey of that referral growth, because to me, like the way I look at it and you could, you, could, you know, kind of give me your thoughts too is the. The way I look at it and you could kind of give me your thoughts too, is the way I look at it from a referral perspective is you have to do good business for someone for them to refer you. Or from more of a strategic referral relationship with someone who has your customer maybe an insurance agent or a realtor or something like that. You're doing a good job for their customers, so they refer you more. So I see two places there. Are you guys focused on one or both?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think there's three for us, because you have an insurance agent that I look at and how you have to kind of what you're selling to them and how you're going to get referrals from them. You have real estate agents that are a huge part of it, especially through the housing market and the craze it was 2020 and then up to 2023, 2024, you know Um and then um, and then you have your customer. You have your customer referral and I actually go through all of my sales training and I tell my guys I'm like you're going, you're selling to three different parties and this is what they're looking for, cause at the end of the day, we're not just selling a roof but we're selling a filling right. We gotta, we gotta make them feel good and make them raving fans and and and insurance agents looking at are you going to file faulty claims just because you got on the roof, or are you going to file a claim so we've got to give getting a roof paid for?
Speaker 2:Real estate agents. They care about closing, so we got to sell them that we're going to make closing whatever that looks like, and that doesn't always mean we're getting a roof out of it. We might have to do a repair and game plan, make sure they can get insurance on the home, and then we game plan for the next storm or game plan for the right time financially. And then a homeowner obviously roofing is not the most exciting thing to improve on your home because you're sitting in a recliner, you can't see what you paid for, right. But we've got to make sure that they feel different than what they've had in the past and have a good product and they are trusting in us that we're putting on a good product and repping the shingle and everything else, so they want to know that they're handled by the insurance claim and everything.
Speaker 1:I love that For people listening from a marketing perspective, we call that an avatar, a persona, right? So it's your buyer avatar, your persona, your customer avatar, and so your customer avatar as an insurance agent. We want to understand what their goals are, what their pain points are. Their pain point is, you know, a contractor filing a claim that's now they have to deal with the customer and their customer is upset with them because they're fighting over this claim and you know, and you're like man that was, you know that was a long shot on that one. So that type of pain point. Their pain point may be that they're getting that they need more customers, right? That's another pain point that you can solve. So maybe you could potentially bring I don't know if you do this or not, but you could potentially bring business their way in some cases Realtors. I love how you found their pain point and I got to get this thing closed. They don't get paychecks unless that thing closes, like the real estate industry, you know, is a tough one in that regard.
Speaker 1:If you're a real estate agent, like you know, there's a lot of moving parts that happen between the time you get a buyer to want to go and find a house and then that thing actually going through, they're qualifying for the mortgage, there's the inspections, there's all the stuff that's going on. I love that thought process. And then the homeowner yeah, understanding, I love your understanding that no one wants to buy a roof. Yeah, right, like. So what are the? What are the things that you can do? What are the pain points? What are the benefits that you can provide that homeowner that would make them say, man, this is the right company to choose? Let me tell my friends and family about this. Let me say blacksmith roofing anytime a roofing conversation arises. Right, I really like that.
Speaker 1:What other you know, as you've grown over the years and developed a sales team and I think I'd love to go into sales team development next but a lot of times salespeople are lazy Sure, don't, and I mean lazy in the way that they maybe sometimes they're just waiting for the next lead that you give them, versus them generating additional business from what they have in front of them. So the best ones are definitely the ones that generate the business that's in front of them. How do you ensure that they are properly asking for referrals and developing relationships where you know that they're going to gain an advantage in generating business in the future. Sure.
Speaker 2:You know, we had to look at that and dive into it a little bit because, yeah, we agree, you know, handouts make lazy people. You know, I read that somewhere and I was like, oh man, that is so true because we see that a lot, right. I read that somewhere and I was like, oh man, that is so true because we see that a lot right. But the other side of it is, I looked at it and I was like, okay, your job in sales is to sale, and in roofing, salesmen are known to be the project manager, the insurance specialist, the adjuster fighter, the inspector, the payment collector, know all those things. And my salesmen still collect payment, do walkthroughs, they still meet the adjusters. But if we get a denial, I've got a team it includes myself where if we do have to do a re-inspection on it, we help them do that. Um, and so we're like, okay, there's still really good income and my sales guys make great money.
Speaker 2:Everybody knows that roofing sales is. You can be successful in it if you're not lazy, right. But we looked at it a different way and it's like, why is everybody? Why is there such a high turnover rate? And so I feel like the high turnover rate is because we have them doing so many things and I came from that and then, whenever I was roofing too, I did everything, which is fine. The payout is supposed to justify that right. That's why the commission rate percentages are so high. But at the end of the day, if you spend the money on your project manager, your office manager and you build these systems and actually have different departments within your company, your sales guys can focus on selling jobs. And so when they're focused on selling jobs and they're not stressed about all these reinspections, all these other things now they're still a part of it. They still meet the adjuster.
Speaker 2:But if we're doing the paperwork and the photo documentation because we actually hired an inspector, we have inspectors that go and inspect the roof. They're not supposed to give a diagnosis of the roof to the homeowner. They're not supposed to say it's bad or good. And then, when it gets sent to my salesman, I'm reviewing every single customer with them to make sure we should file a claim or not, which also is a little insurance for me to make sure that they're not filing bogus claims. Ok, which that all leads up to.
Speaker 2:How do I keep them from being lazy and I get them involved in getting leads and carrying on. And the big thing is is I made them all like even at the end of this year they gave me the goals on what they want to sell and I was like the biggest thing we haven't talked about is how are we going to get there? And you're going to know this terminology better than me, so I might botch this, but like I had read about like vertical marketing or vertical networking, and I was like what are your guys' hobbies? Go join those things. I got a guy that loves to golf. I was like go down, there's a golf course down here that has a private membership for young guys. There's only ninety, nine dollars a month.
Speaker 2:I was like you can afford that to network with guys there and you're already doing something you love. So even for a big guy like me, I still play in a men's basketball league. I got a lot of leads from doing that and that was free. I got a guy that has a Bronco, so he's going to join a Bronco group, and then I've got another guy that he just likes chamber events and stuff like that. There's something wrong with him, but no he actually likes that kind of marketing stuff.
Speaker 2:He's doing that and he's doing a great job with it. And so I was like, once you pick your hobbies, now it doesn't feel like door knocking, it doesn't feel like, how am I going to feed my family? They're already doing something they enjoy and those people because I think a lot of guys will agree with it they're watching. This is, when we say roofer, people want to kill the conversation immediately. I can be at a networking event and having a great time and they're like what are you doing? I'm almost like, oh, I just want to tell them I'm in construction, cause if I say roofer, there's a chance.
Speaker 2:This, uh, this conversation's over, um, but you know, whenever they're doing something, that and so that really has changed it my guys pretty much just work off the leads we have, which is really cool. The winter time, you know, that's when I was like this is where the hobbies are going to come into play and so and that's that really has kept it and it's worked and so far it's been great. And so I think this month even it's a slow month, you know, typically in the roofing industry, I think we're going to close about 500, 600 000 and that's a that I mean, that's the best probably march we've had. So that's.
Speaker 1:That's a gem for everyone. I think you just coined a new one, steven. Okay, hobby based, like, like that's a it's. You know you're around people, that that you know that enjoy the same things that you do, which invokes conversation, which you know. You get to know each other and like each other even more because of that. Yeah, so are you like the? You're the the? Are you just suiting them up in blacksmith golf gear and just sending a blacksmith roofing golf bag a?
Speaker 1:blacksmith roofing golf hat. Let's take this to the next level. I love this hobby-based marketing, right? If you're, if you're, uh, if fishing is your hobby, man, let's wrap the boat you know what I mean let's get that lund wrapped up.
Speaker 2:You know like once we get proof of their hobby and how they're handling it. Yes, uh, I'm very much. I'm making him pay for his golf membership because I want him to have that investment. Yeah, yeah, for sure, you know. And then know, obviously they have hats, they have shirts, you know, and stuff like that. And you kind of gave me an idea.
Speaker 2:I kind of want a blacksmith bag now because I have a golf membership too, but you know, and so but yeah, I mean I think all that comes in, but you don't want to look like it's like almost almost you don't want to go to church to get a profit.
Speaker 2:But, hey, they eventually know what I am right and so I'm a roofer. But, you know, whenever, uh, when it comes to those, because I want it to be, hey, I'm steven, and this is what kind of man I am, the kind of guy I am, what I'm looking for, oh, I do roofing too, you know. And then they automatically, you know, start referring you that way. And then they automatically, you know, start referring you that way.
Speaker 1:And then for people that do enjoy that networking at the chamber and that type of stuff B&I groups, that thing, like. I think the lesson in it too is find your thing, yeah Right, find your thing. You know, that's and that's's I like, I like to. I like reducing friction, yeah, right. And so if you are telling them, if you're telling the guy that enjoys golfing and hates bni groups to go join a bni group, right, there's friction there. He, he may be better off at the 19th hole. You know what I mean. Having conversations with people right like um, about you know, about how how great he golfed that day or not right like that's the you know yeah, um, I think that's fabulous.
Speaker 1:That's that. Those are fantastic things. I talk to contractors every day that feel stuck, not because they're not hard, but because they're missing the structure to growth without chaos or their culture's falling apart, because their team's unclear, unaligned or just burned out and when change hits, they're reacting instead of leading because time and priorities aren't under their control. Day 41 Thrive helps to fix that with proven strategies for growth, culture and leadership that actually work, Ready to thrive beyond the storm. Visit the link in the description or visit the Roofing Success Podcast website on the sponsors page to start your journey today. So now, as you built it up, moved away from being the salespeople in your business you and your partner just being the salespeople you had to develop a different skill set. Uh, you know, I think that building a sales team, managing a sales team, is a different skillset. What? How have you structured your hiring, your training? Um, you know, getting the team set up for success? Sure.
Speaker 2:That was the hardest part. Um, I always joke that I was a salesman and then woke up a business owner one day, Right. And so, you know, I started roofing when I was 21 and I did. I door knocked for a couple of years and then I had an insurance agent refer me after one storm and I was getting so like three or four leads a day and I was like I'll never door knock a day in my life again. Right and so, and then, as you own a company and you're still a salesman and you're doing all the things, now I have a full sales team.
Speaker 2:I had to find a way to be comfortable too, right, Like I didn't want to just be like these are my war stories and this is what I did and this is how you need to do it, because that's not going to work. I mean, obviously it definitely gives us pieces to the puzzle to find a successful way for them to sell. So for me on this, because I do most of the sales management, I had to find a way for me to still be plugged in with the customer and I'm not per se to their face, but, like I said, I'm reviewing the photos with my sales guys. So right now I think we have 250 customers in our queue. I have looked at all 250 customers.
Speaker 2:Just like that guy I interviewed, he's like oh yeah, you want to be, hire these guys so you can be a business owner, so you can be out. I'm like that. Just no, I'm still young. Like no, that's not going to happen. And so I was like, but how do I keep that uh, authenticness, the authentic feel of how blacksmith has been ran this whole time and how I can train my guys, is by like okay, I sat them in here. I said this is how I always did my communication, my followup. I would bet money I'm the best in the industry and you know, all salesmen have to have that confidence about something.
Speaker 2:But I feel like my sales came from my follow-up and my communication. So I showed them my processes, um, and I had to find a way to do it without micromanaging them. That was probably the hardest thing for me to do um and so, and we failed in the past years because I tried to be that way, uh, and then I had to find a way to let them kind of learn on their own. But then, like I do have, I've set up slideshows, I'm working on some third party things to be able to bring them in and show them, like sales tips and all that. I have a sales training every Thursday with the guys, which just gives us kind of a bond. Plus, I always have a good topic and we go over insurance scopes and how, just to read those. I go over game planning with the three different customers that you have, and so we look at different things that way, and so they do go around with the inspector and they see what we need to find.
Speaker 2:But we are basically trying to carbon copy our model rather than me trying to carbon copy myself, if that makes sense. So we had to build a system and we had to play with that for a while before we felt comfortable. We actually stripped all sales guys off about a year and a half ago and we're like we want to build processes and systems, which I owe everything to my business partner Preston on that. He's ex-military Plus he was a assistant VP of that window company, so like he knew that structure. I'm sales and marketing, I'm just a goofy, goofy guy and so, like, with him bringing that structure, I was like you know, it's really brilliant, and so we did that and after we learned ourselves and we learned what we wanted Blacksmith to be, it was easy to plug people into the roles that we needed, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Looking back at building out those processes and kind of what it, what the impact that it had on the salespeople in developing it out that way, what would you say? The 80-20 on that was Like what was the you know? Like if you had to like, now that you've gone through it like man, if these were the most important things we did in terms of process and structure, develop you know, the, the systems and processes. That that was we've seen the biggest impact around that yeah, the inspector was huge.
Speaker 2:So, having the guy that and what I what it overall, not to go through every step, but was giving the sales guys tools and a team rather than making the sales guys do everything. So we, we got the austin's, our project manager. We got the austin, we had the victoria for the office management and we said what do we want them doing? That's going to take the load off the, the salesman. But then what? And then I had to correlate how are the sales? I'm going to make their jobs easy too for the, for the production manager, office manager, because they have to be on their game with how they notify things and put things in our system. But we used AccuLynx to the max. We have a lot of things set up in AccuLynx to help them with templates and estimates and stuff. That way, the inspector, what it did is, and a lot of roofing sales guys. Whenever they see this and go through it, they know exactly what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:If you're a busy sales guy, you're seeing eight, 10 plus inspections a day. And then you got to find time to do the report. You got to find time to make the phone call. You got to find time to file the claim. You got to find time to do all that, as the storm's happening, you're getting more calls the next day, next day, so you have a lot of like deadfall that will come from that, where there's a lot of people that just get missed and they'll get taken care of.
Speaker 2:And the last two major storms we had me and Preston were going Holy cow, we had not a fishing story, we really did increase like four or 500 customers within three to four days just from them calling our office line, the first one, we had to turn the phones off because we didn't know how to handle that, and so we were like, okay, well, that part's great, but how do we capture everybody? And the inspector thing made it to where his job is literally to go take photos 60 to 100, maybe more and upload it in Acculinks, and then my sales guys have time to build a report off that. So now their whole day again is selling, they're looking at the reports, they're building reports, they're making the phone calls, making a decision so they can file that claim the same day. And so then on the back end the production manager has that stuff. And I'm giving you a long winded answer of it all, but I think it was. How do we make a team literally help each other and how do I focus on making my salesman just be salesman?
Speaker 1:So so what I'm hearing this is for people listening. What I'm hearing is you wanted to give your. You wanted to increase the time that your salespeople were selling and decrease the time that they were doing non revenue generating activities. There you go, and so so what you did is you looked at their, at their job duties, and you said, man, this, this one here building out that report or doing. You know, building out a proposal or an estimate like that takes a lot of time. Yeah, okay, let's get that off of their plate, let's take right. And so you. Is that what I'm hearing?
Speaker 1:So, that may be a great way for people to to, to approach it Right. It is is okay, what's the what's the thing that's taking the most amount of time? Yeah, and then let's, let's look, let's focus it on that, let's make that more efficient for them. Or or have another team member. It's a who or a how right, like, so we can, how, how we can make this more efficient, or who we can add to the team that can take that off of their plate. That you know. That that really is. You know, this is what I talk about. I love, I love the. I love business in the iterations that you continuously make right, like you know phase one, yet you go sell yourself. Right Phase two you got to hire some people and train them and pass that knowledge on. Phase three is how do we make them more efficient in their process? How do we?
Speaker 1:give them their time so that they can be $2 million a year reps versus, you know, struggling to hit a million because they're doing all of these other things. Yeah, what other things come to mind, as you know that that that were, you know, some of the most impactful things around that.
Speaker 2:You know and you're asking for, like how the salesman became successful or like training them.
Speaker 1:How you've looked at these processes, how you've developed those efficiencies, and maybe you've developed the efficiencies in your production team too. Maybe you've developed like what other places have you have you done this? Or or has it only been with the sales team? Maybe that's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we started with the production guy and we're like what do we need for that to run smooth? Then we looked at our office manager and we're like what do we need that to run smooth? And we're talking about communication, photo documentation. And then like at what part in Acculinks do they get tagged, what duties do they have in Acculinks on when they move the timeline or like from lead to prospect or approved to completed?
Speaker 2:And then like what you know, we're obviously paying you guys a salary. What are you going to do with your salary? So you know're obviously paying you guys a salary. What are you going to do with your salary? So you know, is it job costing? Are you telling me where I'm negative on from my estimate and my sales guys estimate? I've got it to where my production manager he reviews labor sold versus what labor came back to on the ticket because maybe there's added stuff. He looks at labor or, excuse me, material sold in acculink versus what it actually came by, and I'll tell you we were bleeding on the back end and I think a lot of guys were and I think a lot of it was because did we really have to order three more uh packages of ridgement or you know a ridge?
Speaker 2:we might have only needed two. What happened to that third package? Okay, you know, and so like he even tightened that way and it sounds like a penny pinch, but we didn't, and it just made the process flow. The crew loved it. They knew there was a structure there too, so it really benefited on those.
Speaker 2:And once we knew what we wanted them to do, then we knew what we could strip from ourselves guys, because me and Preston were doing everything. So we had to view it from our sides like what is taking the most time? And we did view it this way what's going to put them back with their family at night? And so the only thing that takes the most time for my sales guy that we can't get away from is maybe a really long adjuster appointment or a late night contract signing, because hours worked, stuff like that, and we don't tell them they have to go home. I mean, if they want to make late night or weekends their thing, I feel like salesmen. They got to adapt to their schedule and what they like and where they perform the best. But I hope that kind of answers your question. But we do, without making it a long deal. Is we have a system for every position, including myself and my business partner self in the company, each department?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that answers it, but it also provides some clarification. I think that this is something good to think about after hearing it from you is that you worked on the production side first. The office side first created efficiencies there first, so that when you created efficiencies in the sales process, there was capacity, and it sounds like there could have been capacity issues when you had that big storm and you had to turn the phones off. But right, yeah, yeah, but, but it but, but it's the you know through the production process. How, what effects did that have? Let's talk about that a little bit. I think that's an interesting one and maybe you have the answer. Maybe you don't, but did you measure your production capacity, how many roofs you could build a week or a month or whatever to after you optimize that production role? What? What did that capacity increase to? Did you guys measure any of that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it made it more profitable, rather than rather than because we were doing two, three roofs a day. I mean, we still do, and in the wintertime we're doing four or five a week if the weather will let us, which I feel like is a very good capacity. But it made us more profitable. It made you kind of stop scratching your head and going like, why wasn't the numbers the same as what we sold it? And I'll tell you where it fixed us the most it fixed our estimate template. So if it fixed all of our wrong estimating like we might've been wrong on how many bundles we really needed per thing, linear foot, what's true, you know. So that that is what it made us more profitable, we had a lot less loss is what I should say.
Speaker 1:That's a great feedback loop that you created, right, like you created that feedback loop of what, what's happening and then, like you said, now you can make adjustments on the estimating side so that you're more accurate, as you, as you're making a, making those making bid or doing bids and things and estimates and yeah, that's awesome, yeah, and things and estimates and um, yeah, that's awesome, um, okay. So another thing I want to chat with you about, because it sounds like I mean, you've built up, you've built out the team. Yeah, um, you know what? What lessons did you learn about getting the right people?
Speaker 2:it just happened how we got our production guy. So it really was what are their family values? So you have to kind of look at their job histories in the past and then you kind of also just like what the kind of people and it's kind of like our customers we got referred to, the people we got. So Victoria and I that's my office manager we went to church together. We knew each other as friends and everything for a long time because my wife was on staff there, so got to know her. I already knew she was a hard worker. Anything I showed her at the beginning. I only had to show her one time because she was phenomenal at writing everything down and then she already has a background in marketing. So like her brain already works a way.
Speaker 2:You wanted austin, our our production manager. He was our HVAC guy. He owned his own HVAC company for over 20 years. He was already. And that's why I tell all my sales guys too it's like you're not going to be the reason for your success. It's going to be the relationships that you build. Everybody we know and that we meet are who got us where we are. We knew somebody or something and got invited to that right and so, like Austin calls me and says, hey, I'm just not going to be a HVAC guy anymore, I was able to sell my company and I'm just going to kind of free roll and I was like I would love to have your type of person here. Have you ever thought about this? Well, so he took it. So we already had that culture built, that was family and it was already familiar. Um, my first sales guy, that did really good. He's young.
Speaker 1:I normally don't do really young, but he did an internship with us.
Speaker 2:I met him at church. He did an internship for us. We hunt together and afterwards we're like, man, you have a background in sales that you could do really well and his whole family was in that. So we brought him on. My other sales guy crazy enough, we had done a chimney for a gentleman that is TikTok, famous here locally, really well-known influencer, and his chimney was leaking but the roofing companies kept charging him to replace the shingles around his chimney. So when we did his chimney he got us like 500 new followers overnight, did all this stuff.
Speaker 2:The only way is when we put out that we were hiring Dylan. He is phenomenal and has a big background in marketing and in sales and he came because he had followed us from the chimney fix and he has a family, really good family dynamic. And then our other guy is Preston's brother. So our culture is very, really well known and, like I said it, they don't. My guys don't come across as salesmen. I feel like we're abnormal in that part, cause we me and Preston don't care if you're like a good upselling salesman. I know that sounds so contradictory to sales and I understand what I'm saying, but I, but people are comfortable and that's what we again. We sell that feeling and that's why I feel like our.
Speaker 2:Just last year our average contract amount was 10, 11,000. It always has on our referral base. Now our average contract amount has been 25 to 30,000. And that's just because prices went up. But we have a different clientele. We're doing a ton of designer shingles now and we didn't advertise for that. So there is some things I can't answer. It just kind of happened and we feel blessed for that and you feel dumb not being able to have all the metrics for it. But I really do think having that family dynamic if I had a flat tire tonight, I know anybody on my team is going to come help me yeah, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:And it is in the network that you have right, like there's, there's a lot to that and there's a lot of the relationships that you build over the years. You know if someone is. You know everyone, everyone sees the end result in a lot of these things, but they don't see the starting point Right, and so that's what it makes me think of, like a lot of people's journeys are different. What you know, I know people that were you know beacon. You know regional managers that started a roofing company that had a lot of connections and knew everyone in the market and knew everyone. You know how to there. You know then there's there, there's, you know people that I know a guy that worked at Facebook and then bought a roofing company.
Speaker 1:Like he has a whole different learning curve. He has a whole you know the network. He, you know he calls some of his tech friends, but are they going to be able to solve his room? Or, you know, want to sell room? They might, you never know, um, you know they. Like there's all these different places to start, but that network that you build over time and then and then also, what I heard you was that you're like, oh, you have a like I. From my interactions with you, I learned what kind of skillset you have. Through our conversations over the years, you'd be perfect for this role in our company. Is that something you're interested in? Right, so you're, you know like you're you're, you're getting to know people. It's the relationships that you've created. How many of your other team members have come from other team member referrals Like do you have kind of like a family tree almost going on, like yeah, not yet.
Speaker 2:But I, you know my guys, we had such a good year and then the winner was the first unknown with this big of a sales team and it's only three but that's big. I feel like you know and you know it'll grow. But I'm like I want to see how the winner goes and that's where me and Preston were like I was like we do not take any more sales leads out like this winter. I want my guys taken care of and I don't. I don't believe in the starvation to make them go get all the leads themselves and I think that's like I said. I've made them build their own hobby list and things that way. So we haven't grown from those yet. I have a feeling that is where we're going to get our next salesman now. It's just from that family tree of connections.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the other side of it that I forgot about is the social media aspect. Yeah, boy, you don't know who's watching. No, that's right, you don't know who's watching. You got to be putting that content out. There being engaging. You know you had someone that had a big following. They posted your stuff there being engaging. You know you had someone that had a big following, they posted your stuff. And you know, all of a sudden, this stuff snowballs, they don't think for one second that reps in your area or or people who may become good sales reps for you, aren't watching. You, that's right, and and and and and, making a determination if you're a company that they would like to work for or not, through the content that you're producing. You know, in the marketplace, are you guys doing much social media content? I know you're focused on the SEO stuff, the relationships face-to-face, more belly-to-belly relationships. Are you doing any social media stuff too? We do.
Speaker 2:We post, probably weekly and it's pictures and with a good little blimp of you know like what we're doing, what we're going on.
Speaker 1:We'll give you a little game plan on that. We'll get you leveled up on that.
Speaker 2:We do yeah, and it'd be good, and it's because me and Preston haven't spent time, you know, because Victoria is like, yeah, let's go, I want to do some more stuff.
Speaker 2:You know, we do like the shingle rep or, excuse me, the shingle manufacturer that we do a lot of work with. We were able to. They share a lot of our stuff, so you get that exposure as well. But as far as anything else, we're definitely not as hot as we were when we first got out and trying to get our name out there you know we're doing videos and stuff and we need to revamp that. We talked about that we do have billboards rolling out this month.
Speaker 1:You know, now it becomes the challenge of you doing it versus your team doing it too, because those sales reps, as they're out at the golf course and, as you know, when you're down there playing basketball and the other guys down at the chamber group like, there's opportunities for them to be creating content and adding it to the Blacksmith brand, right, and then that is a direct indicator of who you guys are as people creating content and adding it to the blacksmith brand Right, and then that show that that is a direct indicator of who you guys are as people, right, that becomes a direct indicator of that.
Speaker 1:So real, small tweaks, man, it's all just real small tweaks you gotta you know along the way. As a roofing marketing agency owner and coach, I've seen it all Great marketing wasted because no one follows up fast enough. That's why I built Power Up Agents, Not just a receptionist. Our AI handles the entire customer journey, from answering the first call to booking the job, to post job surveys and reviews 24-7, inbound, outbound, even multilingual. If you want leads followed up instantly and customers nurtured automatically, visit the link in the description or visit the sponsors page on the roofing success podcast website. Your full AI team is ready. Full AI team is ready. What has been the driving force behind? I guess the intentional creation of your team culture, because it sounds like, and maybe did it start off as being intentional, and then you were all of a sudden you're like oh wait, we have a culture here. Let's focus on that and growing it. Which was it?
Speaker 2:So yeah. So I think we started the company like a lot of guys whenever you think, growing up business owner, what's going to drive money? What's going to drive sales? How do we get it? How do we go? And then me and Prestston, like I said when we stripped everything apart, and we're like, man, this is exhausting, like how are we going to revamp this and want to make us stay in this industry, make us want to stay in this business, and it was looking at it going. What do we hate about it and why so? Like, how can we fix that? Is it because we're spending too much time with all the steps I told you about? But we really did look at it as, like we're looking for people that, um, we want to be able to make sure that we can provide a good home life for them as far as, like, we want them to spend family time together.
Speaker 2:We want them. You know one guy's not married or anything, but like we want him to still have a life, because I think a lot of guys get burned out in this industry and they don't feel like they have a life and they'll leave or they'll think they need to start their own roofing company. So we did very much have it to where, if I guys are sick or like Austin being on the production side, not a sales guy um, for easy people, easier to see, to resonate it's like his family went through a big thing where they were sick last year and it's like we've got your back. What do you need? Where's the food? It wasn't like you need to be in the office Cause he was handling his stuff remote and so we have a little bit of a relaxed atmosphere there.
Speaker 2:That naturally builds that. But it is spending time together. I think that naturally you attract the people that you're kind of like Right, and so we spend time with them. So kind of answering your question. We started off like what business you feel like you're told it should be and we realized if we give people a more career style feel here, it won't feel like you're working for a roofing company. You need to start your own, you know yeah.
Speaker 1:So there's always that right Training your competition, right, I don't know man, I believe like, if you can, if you not, everyone's going to work for you forever, sure, um, and if you, if you really understand that and you, you pour into people and you're happy with with what, what their success can be, um, I was talking to uh to to someone down in Florida yesterday. Uh, they have a good size, good size roofing company down there and I and they're um, and I was like hey, do you know these guys in your area? You know these guys in your area? You know these guys in your area? And he was like no, Right, and it's a testament to the abundance that is out there in this industry.
Speaker 1:Right, like you know, you may compete with people on some, you know, at times, or you know be, you know be competing or trying to sell the same person, but there is so much business in the Tulsa Broken Arrow area, right, just the Broken Arrow area, right, it's, you know. I think pouring into people and helping them be better people and develop their skill set is more important than cautiously being cautious about what they potentially might do in the future, if, when something might happen. Yeah, that's right, Right.
Speaker 2:What are some of the things that you do as a team, that that that has built some, that's built some camaraderie around the office. Yeah, so we will do the IRE every other year. So we've made it a non-negotiable that like, maybe it's not realistic to go every year, but we'll go every other year and we pay for their way there year, but we'll go every other year and we pay for their way there and the whole team comes so that we can do whatever together while we're there and we have that travel time, all that. So we're together. On that we do.
Speaker 2:I build in monthly goals and bonus structures. So, like, a lot of things that we learned is that salesmen like money Don't get me wrong, anybody likes bonus money but there's something more enticing when you give them something that's more tangible. That, well, money's tangible, but like it, but it has more weight to it. So like, like, for instance, this month, if they sell 125, which looks like they're going to beat that, there's a nice golf course about an hour away. Everybody likes to play golf.
Speaker 2:So we're like, hey, everybody's going to go, we're going to stay overnight, we're gonna play the nice golf course and then the top guy that sold the most and there might be a special gift for him and it I don't know. It might be a set of golf clubs, it might be this or whatever. But like so that X, that top sales guy, is trying. So everybody's trying to be the top guy. But as a team, if we hit these numbers and we take the sales manager and we take the office manager and the inspector, we go and so we spend time with them. Our office manager just bought a home. We're like when are we doing a housewarming party, you know? And so it really is like, how are we going to be there for each other? So we just spend time with them and it's built that kind of family culture that way.
Speaker 1:There's a there's something about the things that are not money. And here's a story for you, stephen. I have 10-year-old twin boys, james and Connor. James likes to sell things and so a couple of weekends ago he decided he was going to make some drawings and go out and sell them on a stand in front of our house. I said, james, it's a little chilly today. We live in Minnesota, right? So wintertime, you know, and it's a little chilly today. Maybe you want to just go door to door with these instead. He's like, oh, great idea, I'll go to my customer, right?
Speaker 1:So James is going door to door selling his artwork around our neighborhood and someone didn't have cash so they gave him cookies, like a package of cookies, and at dinner last night we were talking about it and he told his brother it. That was the best thing he got from the whole experience. The kid went out and sold like $40 worth of drawings around the neighborhood, but the cookies were better to him and I was like, james, you know you could go buy cookies with the money. And he's like, yeah, but I got cookies Like it. It's just like, like the thing sometimes, those little things, right, it's, it's, it doesn't have to be money. Every time there's an emotion that gets evoked with, with with a, with a gift or a or something like that. What other things have you worked on? What other things have been on your mind? What are some of the other things that have helped you guys grow?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So we've always tried to be a step ahead on like what we see down the pipeline of how insurance companies are going to change, how they, you know, pay things, and so obviously I've got a lot of relationships in the industry on the insurance side, which a lot of roofers do, right, um, but again I treat them like friends and family. Uh, if they switch out at like there's a there's, I think, four or five adjusters that left, um, the industry, uh, this last year and I've got their personal cell phones, I still talk to them. So you try to. It's the same culture all the way through. It makes my life a lot easier if it's the same on everything.
Speaker 2:But so obviously insurance is changing a lot and we kind of spoke the other day when you and I were talking and it's like, okay, how are we going to develop the right thing that's going to keep us the same same level of busyness if we go straight retail when that day comes, if we feel I mean, I don't know, I feel like I got a little hunch that with actual cash values becoming so popular and higher deductibles and exclusions and stuff, that we have to be on top of that, so that's the new realm of what we're learning.
Speaker 2:Obviously, financing is the easy answer, but it's like okay if we go off of what we said earlier and we're selling fillings more than we're selling shingles, because I feel like that's what people's really buying our roofs off of, because, at the end of the day, insurance is paying for the majority of the roofs out there. So they're kind of going, you know, there's not a whole lot of financial burden in that. So how are we going to make them, in a way, fall in love with the product that they bought? So we are looking at folders and marketing ways and things that leave again tangible, Because we can sell a roof without ever showing them a shingle sample. That's right, you know, and so it's like okay how do?
Speaker 2:we make them engage and be like okay, we're going to replace our roof because it's time, maintenance-wise and not storm-related-wise. So we are currently working on the marketing ways of like how are we going to make them feel like they're getting a kitchen remodel, you know?
Speaker 1:it's a challenge in storm restoration markets that you know like and I know we kind of opened it was was how do you you know how you, how you kind of be a retail company in a storm market? Well, what you're, what you're doing, is you're, you're, you're getting people to know you. It's not the door to door way, right, it's not the. We're only chasing the next storm and you know it's, it's the relationships that you're building.
Speaker 1:But people in storm restoration markets, a lot of them know, right, they know well, a lot of them know right, they know well, I'll just wait for the next one, right, and so. But I think, highlighting the pain points, what you guys are thinking about I love the line that you're thinking, you know, highlighting the pain points of, you know, the ACV, highlighting the pain points of higher deductibles, highlighting those pain points, deductibles, yeah, highlighting those pain points Once the homeowner realizes that they can't wait for the next storm, right, right, you know, if, if I were, you know if I were waiting for the next storm and then it just got to a point where I couldn't anymore, you got to do it, and then, and and and and, having the options from the financing perspectives and things like that, and then having the options from the financing perspectives and things like that definitely will help. Yeah Well, this has been awesome, man. What are your kind of the? The final piece of advice for someone that you know that wants to that that that that's struggling to do the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you, you have to jump out on the faith that you can't do it alone. Um, there's an African saying that I read in a book one time. That's like, if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together. And I don't know, it's just really on my heart for to say that, like if you're a business owner or if you're a guy starting out, or it doesn't have to be in roofing at all, but I really think you have to be abnormal. We know what every roofing company, every roofer that's in it, we know how they're set up, we know how the majority of them are running things. And I really think if you look at your family or like what you want in life and the things that you want, I think you have to go ahead and make the jump and go. You can't afford not to afford the help. So, um, like, you have to look at how do I structure this company to get, keep me sane, to keep accountability and also to be able to keep retention. I don't want my guys to feel like they can start their own, Not because I want them around and I think their competition they're going to beat me. That's not it. I think I've made my footprint. We're fine. But I love the guys that I have here. I don't want them to leave.
Speaker 2:So if you can build that culture for yourself, if you can go ahead and just step out and start looking at those processes and go, what is taking up most of my time and my sales guy's time? And how am I going to make that? Well, the sales will just follow because, again, you've opened up time for them to just go sell. Don't worry about all the other stuff, and I promise you you'll still make good money as a business owner. Every business, every other business, is set up that way. Why is roofing set up different? And that's what we asked ourselves. And so I feel like if you'll just go ahead and step out on a little bit of faith and pull the trigger on that stuff, you'll have a lot better living life.
Speaker 1:Awesome man. Thanks for your time today. This has been another episode of the Roofing Success Podcast. Thanks, brother. Thank you for tuning into the Roofing Success Podcast. For more valuable content, visit roofingsuccesspodcastcom While there, check out our sponsors for exclusive offers, shop for merchandise and sign up for our newsletter for industry updates and tips. Also join the Roofing Success Facebook group to connect with other professionals and stay updated on the latest trends. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like, share and leave a comment. Your support helps us continue to bring you top industry insights. The website link is in the description. Thanks for listening.
