Roofing Success
The Roofing Success Podcast is a show created to inspire roofing contractors to achieve optimal success in their roofing businesses. The host, Jim Ahlin, is the co-author of the book, "Internet Marketing For Roofing Contractors, How to TRIPLE Your Sales and Turn Your Roofing Website Into an Online Lead Generation Machine", and Co-Founder of Roofer Marketers, the Digital Marketing Agency for the roofing industry. On each episode, Jim will be sitting down with industry leaders to talk about their processes, the lessons they learned, and how to find success in roofing.
Roofing Success
How to Grow Your Roofing Business by Buying the Competition with Justin Puetz
From tearing down sheds for $100 on Craigslist... To running a real roofing company with a real team and real systems.
In this episode, Justin Puetz shares how he broke out of the “hope stage” of self-employment. You’ll hear what it took to stop guessing, start tracking ROI, hire killer teammates, and finally build a business—not just work a job.
He shares the exact mindset shifts that helped him go from:
➡️ Doing it all himself
➡️ Winging it and hoping for the best
➡️ To building systems, pricing with confidence, and leading a team
You'll learn how to stop hiring out of desperation and start hiring for character, build momentum with traction tools like EOS, and finally stop winging it and start winning with intention.
If you're still stuck in the “hope stage”... wondering if you can build something real... this episode is for you.
🎗 Support the Fight Against Cystic Fibrosis
Justin and his team are actively fundraising for the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation. The walk they’re participating in takes place this Saturday, and every contribution makes a difference. If you'd like to support their team, you can donate here: https://fundraise.cff.org/Rochester25/SlayCF
🔗 https://puetzconstruction.com/
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How do you go from hauling off a torn down shed for $100 on Craigslist to running a growing roofing company with a killer team and real systems in place? In this episode, I'm talking with Justin Pitts, the founder of Pitts Construction, about what it takes to graduate from self-employed hustler to true business owner. You'll hear how he went from wearing every hat, wearing the tool belt, to building a team, tracking ROI and finally escaping what he calls the hope stage. Justin's journey is packed with grit, risk-taking and real talk about hiring, pricing and letting go of control. He's built the company from the ground up, starting with a rusty old. Built the company from the ground up, starting with a rusty old F-150 and a Craigslist ad featuring his face. What sets Justin apart is his humility hustle and his obsession with doing the right thing by his clients and his team. Whether you're at six figures or eight figures, his story is going to hit home.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, we're digging into the mindset shift that it takes for you to go from winging it to winning with intention. You'll learn how to price confidently, hire your first killer teammate and know when it's time to bet on yourself. Let's dive in with Justin Pitts. Welcome to the Roofing Success Podcast. I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here to bring you insights from top leaders in the roofing industry to help you grow and scale your roofing business. Justin Pitts, another Minnesota boy on the podcast. How are you, brother?
Speaker 2:Minnesota today, right, yeah, yeah, we're looking at about three or four inches outside day, right, yeah yeah, we're looking at about three or four inches outside, which don't love, don't love. I know that there's always a lag on these episodes, but it's currently in the middle of March and so I would love to not have snow right now. I'm done. I'm done with that phase.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it's time it's time for the winter to be over. I feel it too, man. It's time it's time for the winter to be over. I feel it too, man. Give everyone a kind of an intro of yourself, your company, when you started what you guys do, and we'll take it from there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, as my wife always says, I have the gift of gab. So I will try to make this brief. But I went to college at St Cloud State, go Huskies, and when I was there I actually was getting a degree for real estate, which had a few different specifications appraisal, investment, development, different things like that and in our time there we actually flipped a house when I was in college and went pretty well. So we thought let's do it again. Did it again? Ended up actually having it sold and flood all in the span of or not in the span all about three weeks before we were going to close out and make a little bit of money again. That wiped that away and created a sense of urgency of getting this back to what we sold it as. So we didn't have to lose the sale either. Needless to say, it was about two straight weeks of 20 hour days and ultimately, at the end, my wife told me Kyle, you know, you guys are pretty good at this. You should maybe consider starting your own company. And you know, again, starting a business was always been a dream of mine. Um, I had ever since I was a kid. I think I even told my grandma like someday I'm going to be my own boss, like, yeah, like it's going to be awesome. And, sure enough, I didn't realize how difficult it is, but, um, it's, uh, uh. That's what kind of sparked it. And so, in 2017, we started.
Speaker 2:Pitts Construction really started with gigs on Craigslist if you can believe it or not. Back when those were free, you could post your services for free and I thought it was the smartest marketing man in the world. I put a picture of my face on Craigslist because I thought every one of these ads sounded like you're the Craigslist killer or whatever it is, and I thought if they could just see my face and my beautiful smile, they would absolutely love me. And it worked out well, started with really, really small jobs and slowly graduated into cabin remodels doing some additions, all by myself, ultimately moved back closer to family in Southeastern Minnesota and was still on the belt for a few years, and that's probably the first five years of the company and then in the last probably two to three years, we've really graduated is kind of how we look at it.
Speaker 2:We've really taken that jump or jump the shark or whatever um phrase you'd like to use, um, and really turned it from you know, a job, into a business, into a company, um, and so yeah, it's, it's been a wild ride, and one that has not been the conventional. Oh, I, uh. I grew up where my dad knew subcontractors, or I grew up in a subcontracting company and I didn't even know what subcontractors really were. When I started, I did everything, I put the, I banged every nail, I did every trade, which is a mistake, but it was one where I learned kind of backwards. I, you know, went to YouTube university, learned a lot of different stuff and got us to where we are today, which I wouldn't trade it for anything. It's, it's been an awesome experience, for sure.
Speaker 1:Before we get into more, I want to know the craziest gig you did on Craigslist.
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean I think I've told this story before, but there's really two that come to mind. One was my very first one. That one was to remove a shed that was torn down, and I thought it was really odd that it was torn down not to tear down a shed and remove it, it was just to get rid of a shed that's torn down. And so I thought, I don't know, maybe the homeowner just felt like getting squirrely and decided to tear down their own shed and now didn't want to deal with it, their own shed and now didn't want to deal with it. Um, and so I get there. I pull up in my old, my old 1996 F one 50 that's rusting out, but you know, it had an eight foot, eight foot box on the back and did the job. Um, and uh, you know, looked at it, gave him a quote, started taking it out.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, as I'm hearing more about this guy who, uh, I learned that, um, they hired somebody the day before to remove it and destroy it. And as they're pulling out, as I'm starting to pull stuff out, they're kind of revealing a little bit more to it. Um, and things kind of fell apart apparently the day before, when the guy threatened to sue them, uh, because he scratched his arm with a nail from the shed or something like that. And you know, I grew up on a farm. So to me that's like hilarious, like that I'm just like, doesn't even cross my mind, like that is just not the type of people that we are. So it's, um, it's funny that that was their experience to me, but it was also really eye opening in the world of construction and just how non-transparent, non-honest or, you know, dishonest is probably the right way to say that that's the farm kidding me coming out.
Speaker 2:Um and um, it was just, I saw it as a huge opportunity, um and so, anyways, as I'm, as I'm, destroying the shed, you know, they're revealing a little bit more to me, a little bit more, and all of a sudden, all this is starting to add up. As this guy is just, you know, he showed up on a bicycle, um, with a claw hammer, um, not the duels of choice that I would have picked. Um and uh, as I'm lifting up the very base of this shed and I'm getting down to the floor, um, I find about six or seven uh bottles not bottles, cans of natty Light underneath there. So I just thought it fit the perfect profile of like this is my competition at that time. And then you know again, the farm kid in me says well, we just used to burn this stuff, so I just took it in the backyard and burnt it.
Speaker 2:The funniest part is I was in the middle of St Cloud doing that, so not exactly, not exactly very discreet and not exactly the probably the appropriate way to handle that I have learned. I have learned. So please, if you're, with the EPA.
Speaker 1:You don't get a permit from the city, Justin.
Speaker 2:Don't ask me. We got to answer those questions today, jim. But and the funniest part is, I did all of it for a hundred bucks. I just I laugh at. But back then, man, an extra hundred bucks in my pocket, that was amazing. And I just did it all by myself. You know not that that wasn't like a huge thing I mean, I've always been pretty independent but it was still a proof of concept. It was uh, this is, this can work, we can do this. You know need to figure out a lot of stuff, but that was super eye-opening in a lot of different levels, but that's always my favorite one and it just so happened to be my first one on Craigslist, but it was a great place to find work.
Speaker 1:It's a cool point in time when you realize someone will exchange money for what you do for them.
Speaker 1:I think that's a good lesson to learn there and, like, a lot of a lot of people you know maybe are far beyond that now and it's like, man, I don't even think about that anymore, but there was a time, there was a time in your, in your business, where you were like, well, someone actually pay me for this. Like there was a time and and that's a, you know, and then and then. So we were talking about some other things last week and we were talking about the podcast and you know some of the great guests that I have on and you've, you know you've been listening for a while and um, and a lot of times I'll have these. You know which I do. I have a lot of really successful contractors on and they're in that, you know, high, seven figure, eight figure, you know, and and up like a, there's a couple of nine figure people that have been on the show right Like where they're doing nine figures of of gross revenue.
Speaker 1:So cool, yeah, but there's a there's a gap between a lot of those conversations and the kid that broke that shed down and took that shed away. It's almost unimaginable. At that point in time you had mentioned that it's been about two years since you were like, oh, this is a business. Now You've went from self-employment to business ownership is the way I like to put it right. So you're self-employed, you're just making a living, and then you go oh wait, this is something, this could be something else. And then there's the big. So you've had a couple of years of that now, and what we talked about is I think you mentioned it you said I've moved out of the hope stage, and I thought that was a powerful statement. And that's what I want to talk about to start off today is what were some of the things that helped you move out of that self-employment and then, through the I hope I can do this. And now you're like oh, this is a real business. A couple of years after, For sure.
Speaker 2:Well, and yeah, I first I just want to say thank you for doing such an amazing job with your podcast. It is truly man. If anybody is listening to this which is probably just going to be my mom just kidding man if anybody is listening to this which is probably just going to be my mom Just kidding she is not listening to this podcast. But if you are watching and you are gaining any value from any of Jim's stuff, even if there's nothing of value today, leave a review. I'm huge on Google reviews for our business, which, if you'd like to leave us one, it's Pitts Construction LLC.
Speaker 1:We'll put it in the description.
Speaker 2:Charles Minestodo. We're always looking for amazing five-star reviews, but nonetheless, I just wanted to say thank you, jim, because, truly, the content you put out it has changed how I've looked at this business and I think it's shown itself in just the leap that we've made these last couple of years. But ultimately, to answer your question, yeah, we went from a position that I always look back on it now and I think we just hope things worked. We hope that we made the right decision, we hope that we're doing we're reading the right books, we're listening to the right podcasts. We hope this. We hope that without any sort of strategy or, you know, really thought behind it. And it's a scary place to be because you maybe really want to move forward and move up and do all of these cool things, but you have no idea if you're doing the right stuff. And so on the last, these last two years, it's kind of kind of what I talked about recently, which is it feels really like proof of concept that stuff is starting to get traction, that we're not just hoping that if we spend money on this marketing, that it works. No, no, no, no, we're measuring it, we are clocking it, we are making sure that it earns its spot here, right? Anybody on our team, myself included, has to earn their way here and earn their spot to stay here.
Speaker 2:We're a small company. We are on the brink. We don't have the ability to just say, well, don't worry If you're not the best at what you do or not. A killer is kind of how we that's a term we use in our business that you got to be a killer. It's that level, and so there's no room for anybody to do anything less than that. And that's just the frayed. The stage that we are at, which is such a fun stage to be at. And again, that's kind of what we talked about, which is how do you get out of that hope stage? How do you, how do you jump the shark? Um, and to me it's it's one where listening to podcasts like this if you're already doing that you're, you're already on the right track, because it was one of the pivotal things that for me was was just listening to guys in the industry. And again, like we talked, they maybe are at that five, eight, $10 million a year. Um, to give some perspective to anybody listening, last year we did about 1.5, 1.6 million. So we are a small company.
Speaker 2:The biggest fears that I had getting to here was it really came down to. Really, I never felt bad about buying equipment as long as I could afford it, but it really the getting out of that hope stage was bringing on the right people. And that's a huge risk, but it allows, it has allowed me to free up so much of my time. And the joke I had just with the guys this morning was Ray, when you're early, you think I mean, if I hire Eric and Eric handles the supplementing and all that, well, what am I going to do?
Speaker 2:Like, I can promise you, if you are even remotely good at business, there are a thousand things to do. There is no shortage of work if you are even half as good at owning a business as anybody else, right? So to me, getting out of that hope stage and taking the leap, um, you know, uh, for us it was saving up just enough money. Um, in this position of just giving us a parachute right, giving us somewhat of a leash of, hey, it doesn't have to work right away, it can be a, let's just make sure we're moving it down, the're moving the ball down the field.
Speaker 1:What did you do there? Did you think of it in terms of like okay, I'm going to hire someone who was the first person you hired Sales production? Which way did you go there?
Speaker 2:For sure. So in the years that I was wearing the belt, the first people I hired were also production guys, so I was wearing every hat and the first thing I kind of thought was I someday need to get this belt off. Like, if we're going to grow, there's not a single construction company that's doing. I think I even said at the time maybe like a million dollars I didn't even have a big number back then. Um, and again, that was super cool for us to cross a million, so it's cool to feel that a million is not very big anymore, um, which is a miniature milestone. Um, but those are great milestones, man.
Speaker 1:Everyone has to cross them. It's like they're yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and and the. The thought process I had right and maybe others are listening and think the same way was oh my gosh, I'm going to hire somebody at, I don't know. Let's just say back then it was maybe 40,000 a year. They didn't have experience, it was 20 bucks an hour, and so the initial thought that I have is oh my gosh, I'm about to throw $40,000 away, like, oh my gosh. And it's such a trap, a mental trap, because what you're not thinking of is the work that they're going to produce. That is going to, number one, free up your time, but also that is going to advance the company, the team, the mentality and everything you can do. You now can do projects faster. You can do them for a better margin because you've got the time to be able to make sure that you've got the processes in place. You can do them for a better margin because you've got the time to be able to make sure that you've got the processes in place. You can increase your efficiency. You can do all of these things with the right people in the right seats, and so it is one where yeah, I will even catch myself thinking that where it may feel like it is just money out the door. And that's where that little bit of a safety net really helped these last couple of years of building up some funds to bring on guys that are not directly related to revenue, whether that's production or sales. Those are very easy in my head because they're going to produce something or they're going to sell something Pretty straightforward.
Speaker 2:It's those ones that in our current stage that are hard, which is for us. That's Eric. So Eric does an amazing job. It's I laugh how good he is. And it's kind of the definition of hiring those killers, like making sure that you're getting people who are just phenomenal at what they do. And for a fun fact um, eric had zero experience in the construction industry. It was a zero knowledge of. I had to teach and train him everything, um, and he has just taken it up and ran with it. And that's where it comes down to when you are ready to take that lead. It's finding the right person, Um, and and just continuously find that right person. It's to me it's a huge people thing more than anything else, and through that with these people, we've realized we probably shouldn't have documented processes and systems in place and things like that, and that's a whole different can of worms.
Speaker 1:So now that becomes the next thing, right, like there's always the next problem to solve, how many like? I think I've had the conversation, just to go back a little bit. I've had that conversation a lot of times and in our minds we look at the annual salary of that person. We go, man, whoo, right, I mean, you start getting into higher level positions. You're talking, you know, like, ooh, can I really, can I really do this?
Speaker 1:I had a mentor, um who at one time who said, look, if you can hire that person, you got to think about it monthly. So I'll make my math even easier. You said 40 grand, I'll. I'll say 60 to make my math easier and just call it 5,000 a month. Then, if that person can take things off of your plate, that lets you. I think that an owner sits in a sales role a little bit longer in the beginning. I don't know if that's where you sat, but if that person allows you to get enough time into your schedule that you can then go and produce an additional $5,000 a month in profit, right, yep, hire them today, like that was the thing. But I like, for people that get uncomfortable or are less, you know, more risk adverse, right, I like your idea of, like you know, I wanted to put some money away. How did you? Did you put like three months salary, did you say? Did you just stick a number in the bank and say, okay, this is our cushion? How did you go about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a little bit also of, I mean, started. Uh, one of our biggest booms was we actually had a storm down here and we I again I laugh I had no idea about this podcast. I had no idea about subcontractors. I was like we're coming up on about three years ago so the windows closed. I know, no, no, we cannot work it anymore. But, um, we were just getting calls left and right about it Hail damage.
Speaker 2:I'm just thinking like what, like you? Just like sure, I remember I was just giving prices out, I wasn't even doing it for what the insurance said hey, we'll give you more, justin. No, no, no, no, no, you keep that. Mr Mrs Insurance adjuster, I don't need it. I'm a small little hometown truck. In the truck contractor, they a lot of jail Right. So, um, just kidding, I've never been to jail. But um, um, you know, and so with that we kind of had this influx of work and and all of a sudden I'm very rapidly figuring out, oh, you mean to tell me I think I had someone send me their insurance stuff. I didn't even ask for it. And I'm like, and we were so busy at the time, I'm like you know what To do this job I am going to. I'm going to say that that number, that number, there it is. And again I thought to myself there's no way they're going to accept that Like that's. That is way I.
Speaker 2:And again we were at a stage in the company where I did not understand white glove service. I did not understand we couldn't charge those prices, we were not worth it. Yet we were way too sloppy, way too unorganized or disorganized. And as much as I know that we did a great job on the product, the experience from a client's perspective maybe didn't go as smoothly. Experience from a client's perspective maybe didn't go as smoothly, but because I generally was pretty charismatic and always made sure that people were happy at the end we never had a bad reputation by any means, it was just one that I didn't feel like. We were quite at the stage to charge those prices. And so all of a sudden we're realizing, well, if we start charging properly, sudden we're realizing, well, you know, if we start charging properly, we can pay for these better experiences and we can bring on the right guys, we can buy the right tools. We can. You know you're going again. That's that stage of what the price was before was a price that would work for. If it was just a job for me, there was no growing the company on that, and so we ended up having this influx of insurance all of a sudden, and again it's just me wearing all the hats. So the return on that lagged a lot, and as much as I would have loved to have that nop in the case, that's just the way it was. And so all of a sudden, though, as we're getting all of this done, as we're finally getting paid and all these things, you know, we probably had about a year's worth of salary saved up, um, for this position.
Speaker 2:Um, now again, I'm a big fan of positions that have a direct influence on how the business works right. So, for example, salesmen are commission based because I want them to succeed as the business succeeds right. Like a salaried sales position does not make sense to me. I get that. Some people have it structured that way and that's great for them. I love it when it's a hey, your success is our success. It is not me or you, one or the other, it is both only. And so in this position, particularly for an admin person, I always like to somehow encourage either a bonus structure based on Google reviews or a percentage of overall revenue, right, like so. As the business grows, so does your compensation if you're on that particular position. Right, it's not for everybody, you know, you're not going to maybe have an office manager on that level, but it is one where when you're having a direct input on the company. So for me it was just, it was all of a sudden kind of having an influx flow in um and and surviving all of those tidal waves of, you know, going up and down in business and all of a sudden finding myself with I think it was probably about 50 grand saved up on the side, um, and it was enough to again get started with a structure that was commission based as well. So it wasn't solely that in all amount, but it was one where I was like, hey, I have this saved up and it was one cause.
Speaker 2:It's a risk on their end too, what you're forgetting when you're at my stages.
Speaker 2:They are risking just as much as you are.
Speaker 2:Like you can't forget and you can't take for granted what the people are that are joining you and your mission and your vision, and I again, I kind of don't like those words, but whatever it's, you get the point Um, if they're doing that, they're also taking a risk, so you need to make sure that you're protecting them.
Speaker 2:I take it very seriously when someone stops their life to change careers and join us, and we've just had it twice, now three times, where we've had just killers coming through the door and it is starting to see that snowball effect, that domino effect of this one, now this one and in the last year, like I said, we've got three guys that are just going to be absolutely rock stars, one of them starting this summer. That is again I would have never dreamed of. It's the first project manager, that's the first person we're handing project management off, and I'm so excited to get that off of my plate because, my gosh, I just need somebody to dedicate themselves to making sure that inspections are done on time, that material is coming when it needs to. It's so simple, but at the same time, the right person there makes or breaks the experience for a client.
Speaker 2:It's crazy, it is crazy, and so, anyways, that's again. I get long-winded. You cut me off on that.
Speaker 1:No, that's all right. You made a comment about pricing and I think this is a lesson that a lot of times you have to learn. When you're self-employed, I feel like, a lot of times, when it's more just you, you're wearing the tool belt, you almost feel like you're ripping someone off. If you price the job properly, I'm going to say properly, I feel like a lot of people, smaller contractors, they'll feel that way, um, and and even even as you, as, as as contractors that get into multiple millions of dollars in revenue, they look at, you know, uh, an able roof, mr roof. They'll look at a de bella, they'll look at a. You know, like some of these really big companies that are selling at a thousand twelve hundred square and go, they're just ripping people off, but they're, but they're, they're. Their bottom line is not much different, yeah, but they're employing a lot more people, they're, they're contributing a lot more in marketing dollars, they, they, they have more vehicles.
Speaker 1:It's amazing when you get that aha moment of oh, that's how they pay for all this stuff. Oh, yeah, was it dealing with the insurance claims and seeing that gap that made you realize it. Was it a specific job where you're like, man, if I just price this a little better. If I had $500 more in this job, someone could do help me out with it. Or like what was the? What was the aha moment for you around pricing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, I actually I do think it was as a result of those insurance claims, um, and it was also partly at that same exact time we started to um. But just me as a human has went on in the last two years of you know, going, you know, to again listening to podcasts, just like this Um, um. We love hook agency up in Minneapolis and so getting getting into um a network with um, jack and um, or Jack and Tim and um Skylar and all those guys up there, and they just do such a phenomenal job of bringing other people together. You know, I remember it was an early event there. I also got to know I think it was a separate event, but we got to know John Cenac and Chris Zimmerman, and if you're in the roofing space and you don't know these names, look them up, research them. Right, these guys are, they do an amazing job, um, and so it's one where, all of a sudden, now you're in the room with guys who do know how to price stuff properly and they understand why that matters, and a lot of it is.
Speaker 2:You care an immense amount or a ton about your team. You want them to be successful. Who wouldn't, right? You also care about the community that you're in. I love donating, I love giving back. It's like one of my favorite things to do. I love like buying dinner for the team. Like.
Speaker 2:To me, generosity is just like such a gift. That's like a blessing. Like if, if you are blessed in that area to do that and I and you're not doing that, I just think you're missing out on such an incredible opportunity to just. It's a weird way to think, but to serve people with your gifts and then almost like in a backwards way, but it's it's one, but it's one where, when we started seeing those insurance ones come through and we started to figure out, oh okay, they give them this estimate, like wow, we would have done this for like $7,000 less last year, but again, we were pricing it out because we were just covering the cost.
Speaker 2:That was it. The business was making no money, it was just me, it was whatever I was making, and so it really opened the door and, as a result, by learning more about the insurance world, it opened the door to so many other guys and now we still do a lot of insurance work. However, we have really been focusing our systems on retail, just because we want to make sure that we keep that consistency there. And then our icing on the cake is when we get storms nearby. We're not the company that's going to drive eight hours away to a storm licensed in wisconsin and iowa, but usually try to keep everything, especially storm related to, within about a hundred mile radius. It's um that reaches the twin cities, that reaches um mancato rochester, obviously lacrosse, all of those bigger cities.
Speaker 1:For us, and you know, being a smaller team, that's perfect people that don't know minnesota those bigger cities are like 50 000 people that's a good point that's a good point right just for context, right it's not. You know we're not talking about you.
Speaker 2:I should preface I grew up on a farm. My town it's not even a town, I think it's actually classified as a village was 289 people. Yeah, you to comeica minnesota throw it up, we it's the? U, so um, but uh, yeah, it legit. Um, yeah it. Uh, it was pretty funny. It's 289 people, but it also had three bars, so I thought the per capita was really in your favor. If you like to drink, uh, yeah, you know it's, it's a good ratio um, sounds very, sounds very.
Speaker 1:Minnesota yeah, the town, the town I grew up in or part of my life in northern Minnesota was 1,900 people, 11 bars. So similar ratio, right.
Speaker 2:There you go. They got to say no About 1 to 100.
Speaker 1:About 1 to 100 ratio for bars to the people. Yeah, big shame Now that you've gotten to higher. Okay, so you had the aha moments. Wow, we could price this out. I think these are the things that get you over that hope stage, right, like you're like oh wait, get now I. I understand that. I understand. I need to hire people. It sounds like you had maybe some luck in some of the first couple. Did you have any any go wrong and what lessons did you learn there? Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Um, had it on both sides. So, um, we've definitely. I would say early on, when I, when I felt like my wheels were just spinning, I was still wearing the belt Um, I was actually in St Cloud at the time. So this is in the first couple years of business, I, you know, we started doing some remodels that were way bigger than what I could handle, so it was okay. Well, we need to hire people, that obviously. That's easy, not a problem at all. And you know, only place I really knew was Craigslist. So, just like I was trying to laugh and I poke fun at all the other contractors that I saw back in the day, Did the guy on the bike apply?
Speaker 1:Is that who applied?
Speaker 2:No, he didn't apply to me, thank goodness, but I did have a guy. Oh man, let's see, I had one guy show up. Oh man, let's see, I had one guy show up. Um, I don't know if it was drugs or alcohol, but was I honestly think it might've been drugs, cause he was almost it was probably both, yeah, showed up to a job site where the homeowner was at.
Speaker 2:So homeowners calling me like crazy. Like you know, I Brent was his name, if I remember right, and it was Brent's here, you know, doing this, doing this, doing this, and I'm like um, okay, and they ended up taking him to the police station and I never saw him ever again and never, never heard from him. I technically owed him money, like for at least a little bit of the work that he kind of did and in theory, um didn't finish it. So I don't feel like terribly bad about it, but it was also very, very cheap. So it's also one of those where kind of figure that out, um, uh, you know we had other guys where they just wouldn't show up all the time. Um, that inconsistency I can absolutely relate with Um. It was a really unfortunate um scenario kind of thing where it's just felt like you were just turning and burning and you realize these are still people at the end of the day. But it very, very quickly figured out how difficult it is to find guys and girls who are on the same playing field as you. In a sense, right, it's not that you need to be super experienced or have all of these years in the trades or in the sales or in anything right. It's, for me, the biggest lesson I learned in hiring is hiring character far outweighs hiring skill. Even in the last couple of years we've had guys who came to us with 20, 25 years experience in the trades and you can ask them. I can promise you, you can ask them as many times as you want. I did this where it was well, hey, I mean I'm 32. I am generally young to be running anything across most trades. It's generally a very older demographic usually, and I remember asking, hey, like, is it going to be an issue taking orders, in a sense, from someone who's about 20 years younger than you? Is that going to be a problem? Are we going to have, oh no, nope, not a problem at all, no issues there? And what do you think happens? A problem happens and it becomes all of a sudden a very big um lack of a better term dick measuring contest, kind of thing. Um, and so it.
Speaker 2:It uh, ultimately is one where you know at that time we were hiring for skill, we needed guys who knew what they were doing. Um, and even though that's that's awesome when you can find it, they feel like more of a unicorn. If you can find the guy that has the skill and has the character that you're looking for, that you're trying to build your company around, I think it's a lot more attainable to find the people that line up with your character. They're on that same playing field with you. You know, and again the example is these last few hires that we've had where it really really feels like you know, some maybe have some experience, but it's been a little bit for them, but most are simply the right type of person. And then it's on us in my head to, hey, okay, let's get you trained up, like here's where I see your characteristics, or the, the um, the character that you are right, the personality that you have. I think you're going to be great at X or Z or whatever Um it's. It's one, though, that it's incredibly difficult to take the person with the skillset and just say, hey, I need you to be more transparent or I need you to be more honest, I need you to work harder, I need you to do all of these things that are much more character flaws, I need you to fix those than it is to say, well, I can teach you how to do all this stuff. It's such a trap and it's one that I think a lot of younger guys, not even younger early, it's just early, it doesn't matter but what age you are, if you're early in business, you just think you need anybody to do it, and I can promise you that's just not the right way, um, and it also is one that it the the, I think, um.
Speaker 2:Two of the three came from unconventional sources. So one was, you know, it was just a little bit of networking Um, and they actually worked with us for the summer, um, just as like a part-time job, um, and made a little extra money, but I was so impressed with him, I gave him like a bonus at the end of the year. We're hiring for these positions, like. It came truly much more through our network of like I didn't even think it wasn't even on my radar, um, that it was just going to be a, an absolute, amazing rockstar on our team, um, and so it's just one where I think that you should lean on your network far more than you think.
Speaker 2:And if you, if you don't have a big network well, that's how you learn to network Then you start asking for other people's networks. You start asking for introductions. You start like, um, right now I'm actually reading a book on that Never eat alone. Uh, it's really good on networking. Um, depending on where you are, you know it's not. I will say it's not a book for everybody, it's not one that if. If you're just starting out, there's probably other books that I would recommend, but for those that are really looking to advance in that networking space, it is a. It's a very, very good book.
Speaker 1:So when you, when you start the hiring process, I think everyone sucks at it, right. I I've said this a few times recently I don't know, I, I know, I don't know if I know an entrepreneur that has come from HR, I just don't. It's not a skillset that a lot of small business owners or people who start businesses have, right, and we think of HR as like the policy of human resources. But really the part of HR in large companies is recruiting. Like I have neighbors, people in my neighborhood, one works for Target, one works for Medica, like Medica, however, you say that, but they develop recruiting systems and all like they do recruiting, executive recruiting and like all kinds of stuff, like it's an actual, like this is an actual thing in a real business, right, the recruiting aspect of it. And I think it's a skillset that we've that we all have to hone in on.
Speaker 1:And first you hire for a need right and then you hire for a role and someone to take ownership and responsibility. That's kind of the path that I see. Right, like you start off, you're like, like you said, I need someone to, I need someone to help me with this, I need a skill set, so I'm going to go find someone that has a tool belt and knows how to work right so they can help me with this. But then, as you develop your skill set, it's like, oh, I need someone with this skill set. And now you develop job roles and go through the hiring process. I think you said, was it how are you? How are you? What have you put in place? I think in our past conversation we talked about this. You put something like a more of a structured hiring process in place. Describe that now.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. So originally, yeah, it was I'm talking a Craigslist ad. That was what we started with, and I'm talking seven years ago, six years ago. So that was, you know, 2018, 2019. That was it. If you had a warm pulse, you're good Like that was the. You know, can you fog up a mirror? You're hired, perfect.
Speaker 2:You know, this last hiring round, we made it very intentional. We started with actually creating the job descriptions and I'm a huge fan of technology, so we used actually chat GPT to help us create the job description, just said, hey, create a job description for a project manager for pits construction in southeastern Minnesota based on, you know, gave it. We always try to give it as many parameters as we can possibly think of and let them fill in all the holes. Right, um worked incredibly well. That would. That saved a boatload of time. Um, you know, we implemented our core values. We run on EOS, so we've got um grow or die, extreme ownership and whatever it takes, those three things. If you don't embody those three things and we put it right on our job description it's probably just best if you don't apply Now.
Speaker 2:That doesn't stop anybody from applying. I can promise you that it's so easy to apply. Nowadays, people just click, move on to the next, click, move on to the next. It's a lot different. So we started, though, with creating really well thought out job descriptions. The only thing I would probably make a little different this time around after going through it, is I maybe would condense them a little bit.
Speaker 2:I think we got a little bit long in the tooth on them personally, and again, it's just because you know, we know the statistics. When people go on there, generally they're going on their mobile device. Their phone is almost always the case. They're also applying to four to five jobs every time they log in. They're also applying to four to five jobs every time they log in. So it's a little egotistical of me personally to think, oh, they're going to stop and read everything about this Like as much as I personally would love that, I think.
Speaker 2:I think the realization I had this last time around was we might be missing out on great people just because the culture has kind of driven that. Not that they're necessarily the wrong type of person, but it's so easy to do these things that that's just somewhat generally expected. So we're slightly tweaking this, but started that we didn't pay to promote it. That was a big difference. I will say, if you can afford to pay to promote it on Indeed or ZipRecruiter, either of the two, it does help an immense amount of getting those applicants through. Don't expect much, again, because it's so easy to apply.
Speaker 2:You know, we were hoping, if we got 100 applicants, that maybe three of them would be solid is kind of what we thought. Again, that sounds terrible, but it is true. It's just the truth, at least in our area. Right, that's our experience. Everywhere else is different.
Speaker 2:And then our first process was we just had a phone call with them, took about five to 10 minutes, and then we actually had them send us a video and the video included I think it was about three to five questions, essentially just getting to know them, right, because if you're like me, someone applies to your job what do you instantly do? You go to Facebook, you quickly search their name. Is this a real person? Do they look normal? Are they competent, are they blasting all of their beliefs all over their Facebook and stuff? And that's fine. But that's not necessarily the character of the person that we maybe are looking for for a specific position, and so it it. It saves us a ton of time of doing the research that we want to. On our head on one end, on the on the other end. It gives them such a small hoop to jump through that it so quickly eliminates anybody who's not truly interested. Eliminates anybody who's not truly interested. But with that the caveat I had is this last time we did try to include that in the job description because the thought process was oh, if they're a detail oriented, if they're really interested in this, they will read this and they will send it to us.
Speaker 2:Didn't work, I would love to say it did, and I would love to say that that strategy made sense. But again, right going back to getting out of that hope phase, we're doing all of these different moves strategically, with an eye on the results. So we're kind of realizing okay, when we're hiring, I think a phone call has to happen and it just makes your company real, makes you a real person, no-transcript, whether that's virtual or in person. The next step in that kind of process was just to do a Zoom call, 20 minutes, super easy. Our hope was hey, we're not trying to inconvenience you, in all honesty, we're not trying to take our own time up. We already did that before and it takes a ton of time up to do this interviewing process.
Speaker 2:And so we thought, if we're able to do it a little bit more intentional, that by the time we met that person in person at our local coffee shop. Because I don't know if you can tell, I'm in my basement today because my business runs out of the back of my house and my kids are home from school because it's a snow day. I don't know if you can tell, I'm in my basement today because my business runs out of the back of my house and my kids are home from school because it's a snow day. I don't need to get on my soapbox, but we're working on changing that and getting a shop doing all that fun stuff. But it is one where it's also means like, hey, where do we meet people? We meet them at our local coffee shop. I buy coffee for them.
Speaker 2:So it's on us like just as a thank you for driving out here, being that we are in a small town.
Speaker 2:The town that we are in is about 4,000 people. Between about 30 minutes away we've got a town of 125,000 and another town of maybe 40,000, lots of rural towns in between. So we kind of know that to draw people out of those areas, we want to make sure that it's worth their time. They're being very, very heavily considered and also it's a hey. The least we can do is buy you a three or $4 cup of coffee. So that's ultimately the process and it has worked out very well. It has made us avoid all of those headaches and I can promise you it may cost money to hire somebody and it may cost money and time to bring on the right person, but what costs far more time and far more money is hiring the wrong person, and I'm a testament to that on multiple occasions. The amount of errors and mistakes that I personally have had to go back and fix from hiring the wrong people, I can tell you. Do not rush that part. Make sure that whoever you're finding is a killer.
Speaker 1:And every. You know we have to give ourselves some grace in this process because I've said it many times on the podcast, one of my favorite quotes but hiring is guessing. Times on the podcast, one of my favorite quotes. But hiring is guessing right. Firing is knowing, hiring is guessing. We're just making the best educated guess that we can. You mentioned that you implemented EOS. How long has it been since you've gotten EOS implemented in your business?
Speaker 2:We are under a year actually. So, yeah, and it's, and it's because, in all honesty, our the size of our company is barely big enough to make it work Like it, just to be honest. And they're they're upfront about that, you know. They they talk about leadership team, they talk about all of that, which I really appreciated. I kind of pulled the trigger early on it, but I'm also. I'll usually think about a decision for a little while and then it's boom, let's go, let's make a move.
Speaker 1:Whether it's right or wrong, we can determine that later, but yeah, that makes me think, because a lot of people I talk to are like I think my team's too small for such a structured meeting rhythm and all this stuff. Like, do we really like? And I think, yeah, but there are certain things out of EOS that to me, like from my side, like my implementation and my businesses, like man, even if you're a really small team, you could take certain things that really still work well at your size. What have the most impactful exercises or things that you've implemented in EOS been for you guys? For?
Speaker 2:sure, and that's where we, when I give that kind of that asterisk of we may not be the biggest time, it's simply because we sometimes bend the rules on it a little bit, and it's just because there's two of us in our leadership meetings.
Speaker 2:So when one of us is gone, the L10 does not happen, which, according to EOS, is not how it goes. It still happens, and I ain't doing it by myself, so, um, but uh, and so I would say the overarching theme of EOS is to stop working in the business and start working on the business. It seems like every part, everything that it instills, is to hit the pause button on the chaos and to make sure that what you're building is actually sustainable and that you're actually building something. You're not just spinning your wheels, you're not going in circles, you're not just pulling your hair out, which is pretty easy for me. But it is one where I would say just the weekly hour and a half L10 meeting that we do when we're able to, which is, I would say, 80% of the time 85. There's just random weeks where we're just swamped and we can't do it and we just both say to each other and so this is Eric, who's my number two. He would be my um integrator integrator integrator integrator and implementer mixed up all the time.
Speaker 2:So integrator and again I hate what that I'm considered the visionary. I just hate that word.
Speaker 2:It's so stupid to me, but whatever it, it is what it is. It is true, all of the characteristics that they list off in the book Rocket Fuel is 100% me. I got bored. Reading through the integrator chapters I was like boring, no one cares, move on.
Speaker 2:But taking time, and we both just kind of look at each other and we just make sure, hey, look deeply into each other's eyes, we say um, um, uh, just hey, this is our time to just just not worry about day to day. The guys will be fine for an hour and a half what is one of the headaches that we need to work on right now? And then we start guessing it right, we identify, discuss and solve, and so sometimes that's one problem for that hour and a half. Other times we get through more than that. But it has resulted in so much growth on our end, both professionally and just personally, just to say, hey, this is important. It is important to take the time to structure this business and it's also important, as crazy as it is I look at when I bring people on. I look at it slightly like a marriage, because my wife will be the first one to tell you I love to work. It is, it is like my favorite thing to do. It is, it is a passion of mine and I just I feel like I'm playing a game of I don't know chess or risk or whatever strategy game you want to put out there, but it's an infinite game with no, no finish line, which to some people sounds terrible, but to me is, oh, it sounds so incredible and so it's, in a sense, it's taking time to not let the chaos rule your life, but instead letting you dictate hey, here are the things that we need to focus on immediately and we need to get right for the longevity of the business.
Speaker 2:And then, on top of that, the you know, delegate and elevate. I don't maybe I don't need to even call it out in my head, but I can 100% promise you that we have done that. I've done it with Eric, I've even said perfect. This is something we can delegate when we're bringing on our first project manager this summer and again, you're talking to a guy who 18 months ago heck, 12 months ago I wore every hat, every hat in this company and sales production to invoicing, which, again, I don't suggest doing it all, but it is sometimes a necessary step and it also makes you appreciate every other part of this.
Speaker 2:It helps me make sure, hey, here is what this project manager should be doing, because here's what I did well and here's what I always wish I could have done well. And if a person's owning that role and again kind of goes back to EOS on that, it's. Just dedicating people to specific roles is also one of those things that I've I've I've really really enjoyed implementing it. John click is our implementer, so he's just a little shout out to him, but it's. It is one where just taking that time has been immensely valuable and I think we've seen it Right. We've seen the growth as a result of it.
Speaker 1:So yeah, there's that. There's that old quote what you focus on expands, right. So if you just take that hour, hour and a half every week, focus on the things that the, the things that you can fix right, like, is this a big problem, a small problem? Is it something we could fix in a week, or is this going to take three months to fix? Is this going to take a year to fix? What are we but?
Speaker 1:But it gives you to me, that's what some of the most impactful things were, for us too, was that, like, clarity in the next right thing to do, clarity in the next right step. Like, ooh, this is the problem that we should work on next. Yeah, because there always will be a problem. There will always be another problem. There's no like it's. That's the only thing that is true in this.
Speaker 1:And then, for people who haven't done the exercise, type, just Google, eos, delegate and elevate, and it's really just a way for you to gain some self-awareness about the things that you do on a day to day basis and if you like them and are good at them, or if you hate them and you suck at them, and and and in between that range right. So you really see it really helps to paint a picture for you of man, I'm really good at this stuff, like I'm going to continue doing this because I I enjoy it and I'm good at it, but here are things that I don't enjoy I'm still okay at, like I could get them done. Now it gives you that what I kind of heard you say. It gives you the next who Like oh, this is the role that we need. Next, we need these tasks to start being completed by someone else other than me or other than your, you know, someone on the team, because it will be much better if they, if you find that person that that that's their sweet spot right, they love it and they're good at it. They're going to do it much better than you will. So EOS is awesome. Even if you're a small company, you can take bits and pieces of it and just, you know, just use the bits and pieces that you can.
Speaker 1:But with the with, I think you know, with that focus on the next right thing, just using it to find the next right thing to work on is is what what's really impactful? Right thing to work on is what's really impactful, as we kind of started this off with talking about framing this as getting over the hope stage. Getting through the hope stage, the what's next. You sat in that hope stage for some years. Right, it was some years that you sat in the hope stage. You started making some breakthroughs. You started getting you know, making some breakthroughs from personal development, business development, like oh, oh, okay, and then from just lessons you learned on the you know through your day to day. What advice would you give contractors who are in those early stages? They're still in that hope stage and they're trying to break through stages.
Speaker 2:They're still in that hope stage and they're trying to break through. That's a good one. I mean, the easiest cop out but I just think it is so true is to just never give up, and it's. I've heard it a thousand times and I won't lie. I roll my eyes, just like I'm sure most of you guys are doing right now, but the truest definition of failure is just simply the moment you decide to quit. Right, and so if, if you decide to never quit and you continue to learn, you continue. I just think you need to become so. I don't even like the word passion. It's not passion, it's not, it's just addicted to that.
Speaker 2:Success is is it I fuel off of it or I did drives me? It fuels every part of it. We have a we? Um, I just created it, a spreadsheet, right? So so part of EOS. Just to circle back, another thing I love is the rocks. That's a super nice thing. Those, those 90 day goals are awesome. Um, but with that comes your one, three and 10 year planning and then 10 years.
Speaker 2:Our goal is to be the most five-star reviewed company in our area. Is to be the most five-star reviewed company in our area, and to do that I have to know where everybody else is. So, internally, I have a document that has every other contractor listed and the date that I recorded their Google reviews, and then I have the next date and then I note their speed and how quickly they're getting reviews and what their average review is, and all of these metrics, um and and. To me that's just a um symptom of the desire to just be the absolute best. And so if, if you have that drive, if you have in your head that there is nothing that will stop you that you'll get there. It's just a matter of when. For us it took longer, and we're not even there yet. I don't even claim to be there yet. It just took us longer to get from level one to level two. I would say we're at maybe level two right now. We are barely ahead of you.
Speaker 2:Listening to this, if you find yourself, you know maybe where I was a couple of years ago. You know, but it's so much fun because you just at least. For me, it seems like we just keep changing the crosshairs of our target. It was originally it was wow, it'd be so cool to be at a million dollars. Well, now we're there and it's like wow, I wonder if we could be at three this year, I wonder if we can get to three Like. So we're making moves in that direction.
Speaker 2:Just know that the the the other piece of advice that I have for anybody starting off is the only wrong decision is indecision, failure to make a decision on something, whether that's hiring somebody, trying out a sub crew, maybe a new marketing thing, giving not giving it your best or your all, or committing to things, they're just not making that decision, whether it's a yes or a no, is the only thing you are doing wrong. Right, maybe this is not the best decision for you, but it's also one where not deciding is far worse. And then you know, kind of. Lastly is just be consistent. We've always been very consistent on social media and have just gotten to really start to dial that in. You know, and for us, that's about 50,000 impressions a month that we've been averaging this year and just posting every single day.
Speaker 2:That's just that specific thing, but it is also it's we're consistently doing trainings, we're consistently reading books, we're consistently doing fun team events, because we want to make sure that the culture that we're building here is one that people want to build their careers around and it's not just a job, and so building all of that, being absolutely thirsty for success, just hungry for it, it all drives all of that, and so, never giving up. It's again. I hate how cliche it is, Truly I hate how cliche it is, but it doesn't make it wrong and it doesn't make it false, it just makes it really obvious. Unfortunately, and it's one where I think, if, if, um, if you're out there listening, and again, if you find that I'm one year ahead of you, it, it, you very well could shoot past what we did in a year. You know making the right moves, but all I know is, if you don't make any moves, I can promise you it will not happen by accident. So, yeah, that's my kind of advice.
Speaker 1:Awesome man, Thanks for your time. This has been another episode of the Roofing Success Podcast. Get after it.
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