Roofing Success

How This Roofer Makes More Profit at $4M Than Most Do at $10M with Aaron Rogers

• Jim Ahlin • Episode 257

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Most roofers chase big revenue goals...$5M, $10M, even $20M.

But Aaron Rogers from Pro Exteriors realized something shocking: His company made more net profit at $4M than most do at $10M.

In this episode, you'll hear:
- Why growing too fast can kill your margin
- What to track so your P&L actually means something
- How to build a lean team that stays happy and productive
- The “sweet spot” where profit and personal life thrive
- How Aaron uses his business as a tool to GIVE BACK — through his 501(c)(3) nonprofit, Hammers for Heart

Aaron gets real about burnout, chasing empty goals, and how he found purpose leading a mission-driven roofing company. If you want to make more money AND live a better life, this episode is for you.

👉 Ready to grow your business the smart way?
👉 Want to get off the revenue hamster wheel?

🔗 https://www.askproexteriors.com

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Speaker 1:

What if chasing top line revenue is costing you everything that matters? In this episode, I'm sitting down with Aaron Rodgers, a seasoned contractor who's done the big revenue years and realized it wasn't worth the burnout. Now he's running a lean, profitable business that fuels his mission, supports his community and keeps his team happy. Aaron is a numbers guy through and through, but he's also someone who's discovered that real success means margin on your P&L and in your life. From developing simple but powerful team metrics to using AI for smarter decision-making, this conversation is full of practical insight, but what truly makes Aaron stand out is how he uses his business as a vehicle for giving back. Through his nonprofit Hammers for Heart and a deep commitment to service, he's building something much bigger than just another roofing company.

Speaker 1:

In today's episode, we'll cover how to grow without going broke, how to use your data without drowning in it, and how to keep your team and yourself aligned with what really matters. Let's get into it with Aaron Rodgers. Welcome to the Roofing Success Podcast. I'm Jim Alleyne and I'm here to bring you insights from top leaders in the roofing industry to help you grow and scale your roofing business. Aaron Rodgers with Pro Exteriors how are you man?

Speaker 2:

I'm wonderful, Jim. How are you?

Speaker 1:

I'm doing well, man Doing well. We were talking I don't know if it was earlier this week or last week and had some conversations and, man, you're a numbers guy and so we're going to definitely get into that here in a second, but I want to introduce you to the roofing success community. Give yourself a little intro. How did Pro Exteriors get started?

Speaker 2:

Okay, so 2005 or so is I started my company, beginning in 2005. My father was a contractor, so I've kind of been in the industry since you know old enough to basically follow him around and pick up nails. Yeah, so 20 years in just celebrated our 20th year, Started really kind of focusing on exteriors and roofing in around 2009. I've been fortunate to be able to grow my company to what I consider to be a pretty good size and have a pretty good team along the ride with me. So it's been fun.

Speaker 1:

That's a. You came up in the business and continued on and continued on. What? What was that? You know? What was that journey? Where did you ever have other aspirations as a kid? And then you just kind of fell in, fell back into the roofing or you know, contracting and roofing or what. What was the? What was the draw for you?

Speaker 2:

I tell you, I so growing up, I always loved cars.

Speaker 3:

Uh, and I don't know if it was, I mean, I think every little boy grows up.

Speaker 2:

You know, all our favorite characters always had a really nice classic car, and so I always grew up really wanting to work on cars. I actually went to our local community college for automotive technology to basically learn how to fix cars, work on cars, and I believe it was the second semester. We had a career mechanic come in. Guy owned his own shop and I think he had six or eight doors and he started talking about the money aspect of things. Six or eight doors, I've got six, eight mechanics and if you're looking to make more than $25 an hour, this isn't the career path for you.

Speaker 2:

And that was the last day I went to that class, unfortunately. So I switched my major to business and I think once I started learning how businesses operate, that became more of the passion of being an entrepreneur. Working with my hands and numbers was always super, super easy for me. So, my father being a contractor, I went and started doing work with him part-time. As I was taking business classes and really, really quickly, while watching him, watching him interact with clients, I realized that I could make a career path out of this and in reality, I enjoyed it.

Speaker 3:

Who doesn't?

Speaker 2:

like building stuff with their hands. And then, you know, a year or so later, but a year and a half later, I made the decision to make this like my long term career, started working with my father full time and then, really quickly, I was like you know what, I don't have the personality to be behind someone else, like, if I'm going to do this, I like the opportunity to kind of be the front person, to be the guy that's kind of you know, steering the ship. And in the middle of 2004, I said you know what, I'm going to start this right, got my business license and January 1st of 2005, officially, was in business for myself.

Speaker 1:

So how did dad feel about that? How did dad feel when it when it was like all right, I'm going to, I'm going to venture off on my own.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I think my father was always supportive. Um, I think he uh, you know he had been in business for at that point, just over 20 years. I think he's still a contractor this day. He's. He's been in business for a very, very, very long time. So I think at that point my father never really had aspirations to go and be this huge brand name. He always just wanted to be somewhat smaller. Him and another guy, him and maybe two other guys. He never really took on projects that he himself couldn't handle. So when I decided to go out and do my own thing, I think he was. I think he was excited, um, in his own way, uh, I think maybe it was kind of like okay, we're not going to do this together. So I think there were some emotions that maybe he didn't share with me, but but ultimately I think he was supportive All right, aaron.

Speaker 1:

So you know back to. We got the story, we understand, you know the journey, you know you grew up in this right and and and. There's a lot of lessons to be learned along the way. You'd mentioned to me in our conversation that you're a numbers guy.

Speaker 3:

I love that.

Speaker 1:

And so let's start with this what are the most important metrics that a roofing business owner should be tracking?

Speaker 2:

Okay, most important metrics. So obviously everyone wants to look at profit, you know, I think I think profit is important, but obviously there's other metrics that kind of go along with profit. So what is it costing you to get the leads? What's your closing ratio for your sales guys? What things do you sell? What products do you sell? What services do you offer? Which of those has the best profit margin? Are there some things that you offer just as kind of an ancillary service but in reality they don't actually make any real money for you? Are there certain things that you're just as kind of an ancillary service but in reality they don't actually make any real money for you? Are there certain things that you're just not good at? So I think there are so many things that you need to track or should be tracking. It can get overwhelming really, really quickly.

Speaker 1:

Let's do it this way we're going to start building metrics for, for a, for a, for a roofing company as it is as it's, as it's getting started and growing. We'll, we'll frame it that way Right now. We'll, like man, it's day one, it's you, you're, you're. You're the salesperson, You're the, you're the. You know, you're the job site supervisor, You're the office manager, You're the job site supervisor. You're the office manager, you're everything. Yeah, at that level. What are you making sure that you're paying a lot of attention to your budget.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I think, when you're first starting off, I think having a proper plan and a true budget, I think when you first start out, having a budget lets you know. Let you know you know, are you tracking, are you on pace, are you hitting your targets? So I think, paying attention to the metrics of your budget, you know, this is my, my marketing spend, this is my equipment spend, this is my overhead spend. So I think those metrics are the first and foremost, like you have to have them set up before anything else. And I think when you, when you get going from there, then you can start kind of diving into the weeds a little bit more and start looking at closing ratios and and, uh, net profit, you know per trade item, and you know kind of more refined data, if you would.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, how does uh, you know, if someone doesn't know how to even put a budget together, where do they start with that? What are, what are some?

Speaker 2:

of the man. Honestly, I always tell people, like people are so scared to ask other business owners and you know, I think the first place you start with anything is is go to a competitor, go to somebody who's been doing this for a really long time and says like, hey, man, I'm going to, I'm going to hang up my own shingle and I want to make sure I do this right. What are the traps or the pitfalls that most entrepreneurs fall into? You know, contracting is a really weird space. It's a really fun business to be in, but most guys don't last, you know, by five years. So, first thing I always tell people is don't be afraid to ask for help.

Speaker 2:

First thing I always tell people is don't be afraid to ask for help. Go to somebody that you know in your market that has a good personality, and ask them out for coffee, ask them out for a beer, and just say like, hey, man, I'm trying to put this together. Where would you point me? Yeah, and then, honestly, we have so much information at our fingertips these days. Yeah, everything you need to know for the most part can be found online. I mean, jim, you're in marketing, I look at, look at the AI stuff that's out right now.

Speaker 2:

I mean, if that had been here 20 years ago, I mean I think all of us would be in a much different place as far as, like our business growth and everything else, because half of that stuff is is done for you. You type in a few, a few prompts, refine it a little bit and then spits out this beautiful product from the backside. I mean a lot of that stuff, it's not that hard. You get a chat, gpt and type in like hey, I'm going to start a roofing contractor business. Can you give me a very basic kind of light on a budget put together? And then you have to go in and fill in the more refined details to get the real numbers on the backside. But so much information is available to you.

Speaker 1:

It can be very easy nowadays, right? There's really no excuse for any of this, and I love that chat GPT reference. I had my friend, jonathan Mass on the podcast some months back last year actually and he's an AI prompting expert, ai expert and has a prompting framework, and so just go in and tell it what you want it to be. You are the chief financial officer of a large roofing company. I'm a startup looking to develop a budget.

Speaker 1:

You know. Please ask me any. You know help me. Can you help me with this? Please ask me any clarifying questions. And that. Please ask me any clar. You know, help me. Can you help me with this? Please ask me any clarifying questions. And that. Please ask me any clarifying questions. At the end, you start to have that conversation with it and it'll ask you well, you know what's your goal for the year, what's your? You know what do you do, and you just start answering the questions and you're right, man, it's just going to spit it right out and it's a very beautiful thing when used properly. Yeah, and so nowadays, the answer to how do I get started is chat GPT. Yeah, claude, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I mean, all of these AI tools are so complex and so easy to use at the same time, and they can be used for almost anything. You know you're struggling to have a hard conversation with somebody, whether it be an employee, whether it be a friend, a loved one, whomever. You go and you type in a few bits of information what's a delicate way to approach this conversation and it spits out some prompts where you're like all right, so maybe it's not going to be as difficult as I thought it would be, so you can use that stuff for anything in life.

Speaker 1:

Anything, yeah, yeah uh, check our sponsor power up agents ai, great in terms of voice, ai, something that you guys should check out, because that's a whole nother level to this stuff. Um, but now, now, as you're moving through, you're starting to hire people. You know, when you, when you start getting those first hires, man, I, I think that you I'm a big fan of EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system developing key, that first salesperson, maybe you start to hire, maybe a job site supervisor or a production manager.

Speaker 2:

So I measure. My first measurement is always kind of like company culture, you know, is this, does that person kind of add into our culture? And, you know, does it kind of? Not only does it add to it, but there's actually mesh kind of in with that company culture. That's usually the first thing, because man, you know you can have, you can hire one bad employee and it ruins the company culture completely and then everybody's productivity goes down. People aren't as happy to come to work, you know. So that's always first and foremost like hire for personality, uh.

Speaker 2:

So for for individual metrics, like salesperson, salespeople are always the easiest metrics to come up with, right, um, because it's a very tangible thing. Like you know, you get two, three or four things like I need you to sell X amount, I need you to close at X amount, um, and I need your margin to be at X amount. So, like you get real three, real simple things and then you can refine it from there. Like you know, our in our area we don't get a lot of snow, um, but we have slight seasons, uh, we live in a real big like second home market. So, um, in the summertime you may not be doing these big complex remodels and, in kind, of the beach area that we live in.

Speaker 2:

So you kind of have to take that sales data and kind of skew it Like January may not be a big ticket month and same way with February is kind of things are warming up a little bit. So and then each subsequent employee past that is going to have their own set of metrics. Right, job superintendents, you know what are we looking at as far as like, are subcontractors happy? Are our employees happy? You know what kind of material loss are we doing. Are we staying on budget with our materials? Are we staying on time and on schedule? And that's important for a couple of different reasons. Right, you know you only assumed you were going to be there for seven days and you end up being there for 10. You know, not only is it additional labor costs, but you also have lost revenue on those days from, you know, the job you were hoping to schedule on those days.

Speaker 2:

Um, client happiness is always something we talk about a lot. We want to make sure our clients are just ridiculously happy with our projects. Um, and then, you know, when it comes to, like, our repair tech guys, we want to make sure that their their output is. You know we have a certain number of rooms for output to be this gross revenue number. Um, you know, we start talking about reviews. As you kind of get along the along the path in business you want to talk about, you know how many people can get reviews and how many reviews can we get each month? Um, yeah, I, I mean, there's a lot of metrics that you can put in place. Tracking them is the harder part. You know you could put as many metrics in place as you want, and obviously most of us in this business use CRMs and they'll track a lot of it for you. But you know somebody still has to look at that data and then go from there.

Speaker 1:

So but yeah, who looks at the data? How do you determine who looks at what data and who's responsible for the outcome of that specific? You know the data that you're measuring for that specific outcome.

Speaker 2:

So we run our business on like basically four and a half departments I won't call it a full five departments because we run operations and production kind of is one big department but each department has kind of their own key person and each one of them is kind of is kind of managed to oversee certain metrics for their department. You know, I won't say that we're as consistent as we need to be, as far as like our weekly meetings with each department head to kind of go over those metrics with myself. Be as far as like our weekly meetings with each department head to kind of go over those metrics with myself. Uh, I'm probably the worst person ever to work for when it comes to like giving somebody else a task and then allowing them to complete it. Um, I'm not a micromanager but I have this like do it now mentality where I don't always have the patience to be like, hey, this is, this is your task. Um, you know, you have two weeks to get it done.

Speaker 2:

Because by the end of that week, sometimes I just want to get it out of my head essentially so I don't always allow everybody to bring metrics to me. I more so have the ability where I work, nonstop kind of deal, and yeah, I can separate. If I have three minutes of a commercial break while I'm watching a show or something with my kids, you know I'll jump on my phone real quick and check a metric and you know, check that box off.

Speaker 1:

Make sure it's checked off.

Speaker 2:

Yeah yeah, adhd is a curse and a superpower at the same time.

Speaker 1:

So that's right, that's right. I think that's a that may be a common trait of a roofing business. Owners right Like.

Speaker 2:

Oh, isn't it weird.

Speaker 3:

Yeah that's weird. In other words, right.

Speaker 1:

Like, or business owners in general really. Um, you know, you mentioned you had years where revenue didn't grow but profit did. You know? Let's talk about that a little bit, okay.

Speaker 2:

Uh, I think when we talked before we, we talked a little bit about how when you first start your business, you're growing and you're happy to kind of see revenue grow. And I think a lot of people get tricked into the idea that if gross revenue grows then obviously you're more successful. And that's not always the case. Um, you know, we, we've had years where our uh, you know, we've added a million dollars in in gross revenue but only added three percent to our net profit. Um, you know, it doesn't matter how many millions of dollars in business you do, if your net profit's not growing along with that, it's it's all for nothing.

Speaker 2:

Um, we, we used to do some new construction stuff and we realized really quickly the the saying in this business is 90% of your headaches come for 10% of your clients. Um, so that was it, man, we, we brought on, uh, like one year we went out there and we had a couple of good size projects and we brought in, I want to say, $1.7 million in new business that year from a couple of projects. And, uh, at the end of the year I'm going where's the money? Didn't we just do $1.7 million in new revenue? Where did that money come from or where did that go? So I think the more important metric is always net profit.

Speaker 3:

You can grow a million dollars year over year over year.

Speaker 2:

If your net profit isn't kind of growing in that same case, then you're working for nothing, and none of us got in this business to work for free, so don't get stuck in that mindset. When I reach $5 million, I'm successful. When I reach $10 million, I'm successful. Let's look at net profit.

Speaker 2:

When I reach $2 million in net profit, I'm successful because that's the number that's more important, because you know, it may not take as many millions in gross revenue to hit that net profit number as it does to, you know, to do the other thing.

Speaker 1:

So exactly, it's a. It's a funny thing, I don't know, man, it's a, it's like you, it's just human psychology. I think some sometimes right we're just chasing this big number and not as many people share their net profit, maybe right. So maybe that's what it is, that we don't have those numbers in front of us as often.

Speaker 1:

It's much easier to say oh, we did 18 million this year, we did 6 million this year, we did 50 million this year. Right, yeah, and no one really. There's not a lot of sharing around the net profit numbers and so um maybe that's a you know, maybe that's a reason.

Speaker 1:

But if you were to like, let's give a range, like because you've you've had the years with with less profit and more profit, you know, if you said, you know, on the low end, this is man. I don't want to drop below this, but, boy, when we're fully optimized, I want to be around this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So for us, I would say our most profitable year was like in the $4 million range. I think the $1 to $3 million is really easy obtainable number. To hit three million, I think the the the run from, say, three to five million or three to seven million is a lot harder climb than I think most people realize. You know, going from three to five is a really it requires a lot more equipment, more trucks, more people. More people requires more management. You know more management is more overhead. Now you need managers for managers. So I think that there's ways to scale up, you know, to 10 million, 20 million and all.

Speaker 2:

But you know, I think our best years, where not only was profit good but our team was happiest, that everybody had a personal life and everybody enjoyed coming to work, and it wasn't like, oh God, here comes Monday, was that sweet spot, man, like $4 million. We've broke $5 million and it was okay, I enjoyed it, but I wasn't. You know, $4 million. You know we we've broke a $5 million and it was okay, I enjoyed it, but I wasn't, you know, wasn't great. Um, you know, worst year we ever had was when we had our best gross revenue and everybody at the end of the year was exhausted. Um, everybody was not happy and I think we all came together and we're like we don't really want to do that again. Um, so yeah. So I, you know I, I have opportunities that I could take, I have ways that I could kind of scale up to to be that 10 million dollar contractor. I'm good man. Yeah, I'm happy where we are. Uh, you know I, I got four sons and a wife at home.

Speaker 1:

I am perfectly content that's right, it's the more important things in life. But but also that you made a good point there, and that's the team and the, the burnout that can come, the employee turnover, the you know, you know it gets. It gets to a point where it it's it. They don't, they don't want to come to work today because they're no, they know that it's just. There's something it's overwhelming, right? Um, how did you, you know? How have you balanced that, now that you've gone through those lessons, right?

Speaker 1:

is it are you just looking at? Hey, we just, we stick in this range of revenue and and, and we don't feel it anymore, or or. You know how are you managing that?

Speaker 2:

So I mean every year, you know, I'll put a number in front of myself and I'll say, like you know, if I, if I hit this, then I'm, I'm good to go, I'm perfectly content. You know, content. I prefer to be happy and content and have a nice easy, manageable company with employees that are super happy, versus setting a goal in front of myself that I know it's going to tax everyone. Money is a great thing to have, but it's not the most important thing to have. Our company has made kind of a larger push to be kind of a larger name in our community, not for our size but as far as, like what we do to get back our community involvement is like built into our core values. So I found a nice happy balance of, you know, the time that I can give outside of my company, the time that my company itself can give back to you know things in my community.

Speaker 2:

I strive more so to make sure that we are at a place where we can always do that stuff, versus like adding all the pressure of trying to grow to a certain percentage point every single year.

Speaker 2:

So, as long as I can, you know we go into every year with like, so, like going into. Last year we had a nice little partnership with Habitat for Humanity, we had a nice little partnership with a local kids camp here and we had kind of some ideas as far as, like, what we wanted to give back. So we went into this year, uh, basically tripling If, if we put it into like a dollar amount where we want to basically triple what we were able to give back to the community going into this year. So my goal is more so wrapped up around that I know roughly what I have to grow in order to like maintain that level of giving, grow in order to like maintain that level of giving. Um, so I'd rather go at it like that. It's not, it's not so much the the profit for me is, it's more so like how can I use this build? This business is kind of a uh like a tool or a vessel to kind of do more kingdom work, service work, whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Before we carry on with the episode, let's give a shout out to one of our sponsors. I talk to contractors every day that feel stuck, not because they're not working hard, but because they're missing the structure to grow without chaos or their culture's falling apart, because their team's unclear, unaligned or just burned out. Unclear, unaligned or just burned out. And when change hits, they're reacting instead of leading because time and priorities aren't under their control. Day 41 Thrive helps to fix that with proven strategies for growth, culture and leadership that actually work, ready to thrive beyond the storm. Visit the link in the description, or visit the R in the description, or visit the roofing success podcast website on the sponsors page to start your journey today. I think maybe this is something to discuss then, because I think when we get started it's hard. The why is to make a living.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Right, yeah, I mean for me. For me it was to how can I support my family without you know struggling, or yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 1:

Like in that that that's really the initial why. When did that? Why change for you what? What changed? And then how did you determine? This is the new thing. This is the new thing I want to focus on yeah, so, um.

Speaker 2:

So I'll say about uh, maybe six, seven years ago, maybe as far as eight years ago, I don't know. Covet time is kind of like that four-year span, that's right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, nobody really knows when all that stuff happened so we'll say, seven years ago I started a uh a charity called hammers for heart it. It's a 501 C three charity that we started um to kind of be able to do, like some smaller community stuff, uh, you know, building ramps for, you know, handicapped people, um, senior citizens, things like that, doing small home repairs, yard cleanups, you know, kind of whatever projects came our way. Uh, we were already doing that. We decided to start the 501c3 to kind of make it a little bit more official and to kind of put a name over it. So you know, if other businesses wanted to get involved, it wasn't like, hey, give me money so we can do this thing.

Speaker 2:

So we started that and you know, for we did a handful of projects every year and then COVID came and you know, everything kind of got weird and it kind of sat on the back burner year. And then COVID came and everything kind of got weird and it kind of sat on the back burner and then in. So the real big push is I found faith a little less than three years ago and in the process of finding my faith I realized that for so many years I chased money and, like a lot of us, if I just get to this amount of money. That that's my happiness. Um, the weird thing is is is you never, ever, hit that goal?

Speaker 2:

no matter what the number is. The first time you hit the day that I so, the first time I ever hit that metric where I was like that amount of money, that's what I wanted, that's what I have was the saddest day for me, because I just I just moved the goal line and once you hit it the first time, it makes it easier to hit it the second time and you keep pushing and pushing and pushing and you never end up being satisfied with it.

Speaker 2:

So I found my faith and I realized that I wanted to do more kingdom work. And I realized that the company that I built is kind of this ginormous tool that I could use to just kind of do more kingdom work. And I realized that the company that I built is kind of this ginormous tool that I could use to just kind of do more kingdom work. I hired somebody that was actually at the time he was the worship leader at my church. He was making a move in his career and I asked him if he wanted to do some contract work. Ended up coming on with me full time, um, so that was kind of a big big deal, uh, to have somebody that worked in, uh in in ministry to come on board, um, and in the process of, like me and him kind of having more and more conversations, uh, we made it a much larger conversation, uh, as far as in the actual office. I told him that, like, this is what like feeds my soul. This is what makes me super, super happy. This is the avenue I want to approach. Like, everything else that we do just becomes like the thing that feeds this, the most important part of all of this. Our company just feeds that.

Speaker 2:

So, uh, we kind of did some smaller things in the beginning of him coming on board with us. Um, you know, we kind of did some smaller things in the beginning of him coming on board with us. One of the things was we put out there in our marketing. We started a thing called the Community Pro Pledge to let people know that we're here for our community. We'll do these projects.

Speaker 2:

We've done two food drives now where we've raised a very considerable amount of food for two of our local food pantries, considerable amount of food for two of our local food pantries We've done. We did like an adopt a highway here locally, which we just got done, doing our quarterly cleanup, the local camp here we were able to basically tear down a building and rebuild their canteen to serve the kids in the summertime. And then last year we did seven Hab, seven habitat for humanity brews. So, um, so yeah, so that that whole conversation just kept evolving and every time we did more service work I just, you know it made me happier and happier, happier. I've had more business owners in our area reach out to say, man, hey, love what you're doing, like, let me know how I can get involved. So like that, in my personal opinion, is a is a larger, uh kind of barometer to success than anything else.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, when when you can inspire other people to kind of, do you know more things that you know? Serve others versus themselves. Uh, I mean, I think our world would be a better place if everybody just served others more than themselves.

Speaker 1:

So you, but using. I think there's another part to that that I think I want to point out is that you're also using your gifts and business, right, that you're using your, your talents, to then be able to right, like I think that that's that. You know, I think it could go. Some people want to help too much and they, and then maybe they, they, they, just they, they they're not using their gifts properly, right? So you know, um, how, how has it been okay for a contractor that that's thinking about going down this route also? Right, I've had a couple on the podcast that on this route also.

Speaker 1:

Right, I've had a couple on the podcast that that have you know, uh, nonprofits also and, and and have a strong mission in, in the, in the way that they serve the community and serve causes in their, in their businesses. Yeah, and you know what are what were some of the things in getting that type of structure set up? Like, how does how does someone go about starting a 401 C three and you know, and making that an actual, like, yeah, this is official, yeah, someone can write a check, donate their time, donate their services and and get that tax write off. But also, you know, like, what was that process like?

Speaker 2:

Because that's a, that's a whole process within itself like Cause that's a, that's a whole process within itself. Yeah, I mean. So if I've been completely honest with you, I was very fortunate to have somebody within the company that kind of took that burden onto themselves. I mean, starting the 501c isn't like a terribly, terribly involved process, you know it's. It's more of a hurry up and wait type deal. You know you fill out the paperwork, you kind of put a name behind the whole thing, you put a mission, you put officers in place and then you wait for the IRS to tell you yeah, you're good, you got your nonprofit status.

Speaker 2:

The harder part of that is funding is always an issue, especially if you're a no-name 501, nobody really wants to give me money for these projects, so you're going to self-fund a lot of it. But if you're going to go through the process to do it all and you're going to make it a bigger thing for yourself and your company, just stick with it. Over time you'll have more and more people that will buy into what you're doing. Always be very, very verbal about it. Don't be afraid to talk about it. It's not a secret. Not everybody's going to believe in what you do. You don't need everybody to buy in, you just need people to listen and understand that, hey, you're open for these things and then, honestly, sometimes you just have to learn how to say no. There are people out there that are in desperate need of the services that you can provide for them.

Speaker 2:

It's unfortunate and there are people out there, and then there are the other side of that where there's people out there that look at you and go, hey, this guy's doing stuff for free. So you have to come up with a vetting process to take a project and, and you know, meet with the people, figure out if if they're legitimately in need. Um, you know, we've been fortunate. To my knowledge, we've. We've never had anybody take us for anything. But yeah, I mean, if you want to have a conversation, just start asking around. There's, there's so many resources. Don't be, don't be secretive about it. If you want to do it, just start asking around. There's so many people out there that have done it or are willing to help you do it done it or are willing to help you do it.

Speaker 1:

Uh, yeah, and this, and small things too, is is, you know, being involved with your local, with local charities in your area? You?

Speaker 1:

don't have to start your own right. Habitat's a great one that I know. A lot of contractors you know do a lot of service and have habitat for humanity and things like that. So you know, starting there is a great place too, right getting, you know, just getting something going. And then another part of it becomes the team aspect of the. You know Charles Antis and Tamara Chase and some people that I've had on the show that also are very philanthropic in their, in their roofing businesses. They, it, it. It becomes a culture thing in their business. It becomes part of the team. Um, uh, you know the um there. There's so many aspects to it when you, when you, when you, when you, uh, when you bring it in, and you'll get that feedback from your team that this is man, yeah, we, we really enjoy this, Like we'll go out and do this with you, we're in with you. And how has that shift happened within your team, Are they?

Speaker 2:

like, do they have a different motivation? So I think that some people share the same motivation that I do. I think there's other people that may not have the same heart behind it. I don't ever get anybody that was like, no, I don't want to do that, um, and and when we all come together, when, when the entire team is together doing these things, we're laughing and carrying on the entire day, there's nobody that's moping around going. I can't believe we're here, um, you know, I there's.

Speaker 2:

There's times where, uh, there's times where I ask people to donate their time, and then there's times where we do these projects during normal business hours, where everybody's blocked a check. So when I have the opportunity to do something where people can donate their time, I don't really have an issue with people saying like, no, I'm not available that day. I have a handful of people in there who have several kids and families and busy extracurricular activities with coaching and everything else, and when they say like, hey, I wish I could be there, but I've got other things I have to do that day and I'm perfectly fine with that. So they can be involved if they want to. They can be not involved if they don't want to. I don't hold that against them. This is my thing. I'm fortunate to be in the position that I am and, uh, I love to have them with me, but if not, like it's still going to charge forward.

Speaker 1:

So I recently had a gentleman on the podcast, jonathan Cron, sten Jake Cron. He wrote a book called the billion dollar blueprint yeah, both billion dollar bullseye, not billion dollar billion dollar bullseye and he talked uh, we talked a little bit about which was very enlightening in in my conversation with him was, um, an internal mission and an external mission of the company. Yeah, you, you can't expect your team to buy into your internal mission and have the same, uh, same enthusiasm about it, right, like what you would. What you can hope for is that they buy into the external mission of the company, the way that you serve your customers and take care of your customers Right.

Speaker 1:

And so you know with that balance and and that that awareness, it's like, hey, it's okay, right. Like it's okay, hey, your kid's got something going on. I'm not mad that you can't come and you know, work with us on this, you know project, or whatever.

Speaker 2:

That's a great way to frame that the internal and the external, yeah that's what I thought man, that was an awesome one.

Speaker 1:

That was very impactful when, like that, uh, that, when he said that, um, so now you do, you've, you've kind of created some other community involvement. You just continue the you know, along these lines of community involvement. Um, you started. Um you started a podcast. Yeah, the U S the pros a podcast. Yeah, the you Ask the Pros Answer podcast.

Speaker 2:

So everyone check that out.

Speaker 1:

You Ask the Pros Answer. So we'll get to some listeners over there and let's describe what you kind of the concept behind it, how you got that started.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so Cole, like I said, cole was a guy that was uh in the ministry at my church that came on board with us a little over a year ago. Um, you know, we wanted to kind of increase. He's our marketing manager, so we wanted to kind of increase our our marketing more, um, locally. And uh, podcast is one of those things. I listened to a ton of podcasts, um, you know, I listened to a lot of audio books. I read a lot of books. Uh, so like I'm a nerd when it comes to this business. Um, most of the people that know me uh know that like I'm the guy that can quote specs from certain materials or install guidelines. Um, so I'm a wealth of information, and sometimes entirely too much information. So it was like, how can we harness that, put that out to either and let people know how big of a nerd I am? Um, so we started the podcast.

Speaker 2:

Initially it was kind of more like let's talk about the products, let's talk about the right things and the wrong things with installations, the common things that we deal with. You know, what should you be doing as a homeowner, how to hire somebody, how to vet somebody. It originally started like that. Eventually your content gets kind of stale because it's like all right, here's another 20-30 minute podcast of this guy telling me how everybody else is wrong. He's right. So then it was like all right, so who else can we bring on? Let's bring in people that are kind of like contractor adjacent. So we had we've had a couple of different real estate agents on um.

Speaker 2:

One of our most recent podcasts that just dropped was a guy down in north of virginia that uh has a landscaping company. He just started a 501c3 called relief cut. He's going to be doing um, like some kind of property cleanups, uh. So we're looking at not only kind of helping him, kind of boost that thing, but we were in the beginning talks of potentially finding a project where my team can go down and meet him and his team and we can kind of do a project hands on together, which I'm looking forward to. I hope that all happens. But yeah, so it's kind of evolved and I'm excited to see. You know, when we originally started and we called you, ask the pros. Pros Answer we're pro-exteriors. Yes, we're professionals, we're the pros in our industry. But I think this podcast is going to be more so like the pros in every industry.

Speaker 2:

So I think, it's going to expand into everything you know, other trades, businesses, other service businesses, kind of wherever we can get somebody that we feel is like. You know somebody who has the right qualifications, has been in business for a while, who has a good story, and you know at least, like you search out people that that, that fit, that that mold. We're going to be doing kind of the same thing.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, yeah. How's it been for you? What, what's been the journey? Like what?

Speaker 2:

were some of those first episodes. Was it like, oh man, I don't want to be on camera? Were you like, put me on camera, let's cut it up. I can BS with the best of them. Um, I can do it face to face all day long. You turn a camera on. It's probably the only time you ever seen me really be bashful, so I've gotten used to it and, uh, I've kind of learned the tricks of, like how to actually look at the camera like I'm doing right now. Um, how to, you know, pretend like the monitors, you know, not in front of you. You know those little tricks that aren't really natural in the beginning. I've learned how to sit still in my chair and not do this.

Speaker 3:

In the beginning.

Speaker 2:

I hated it because all I look at is, of course, like everybody, I look at the screen and I look at every imperfection I can find on my face. So, as it's gone along, you don't really pay attention to it anymore. They get super, super easy after you get so many under your belt. Um, you know, it used to take a little while to kind of put the podcast together without kind of glitching or losing your uh spot train of thought, um and cole, having to pretty much edit everything down to the finished product. Now there's there's been a couple times where we go in and we knock out a 15, 20 minute podcast session with, with no issues whatsoever, hardly any editing needed to be done. Um, so, yeah, so it's, it's been, it's been fun. Um, I'm looking forward to it. It's something I really, really enjoy doing.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, those conversations are fun, man, and it is. It's, there's something about being putting yourself on camera. It happens, I have 10 year old twin boys and my son james, you know, will record me doing this and then he'll watch it and he's like that's not what I sound like.

Speaker 3:

I'm out of here like that's not me don't put that you know.

Speaker 1:

So it's not I'm wearing that what it is. I remember when I switched to a 4k camera I was like, whoa man, I got some, oh yeah you know, yeah, when my hair gets a little longer, my grades have come in pretty, pretty solid on the side of your. Keep it a little shorter than I used to. Yeah, it's just do it, man, and and and it's. How has the response been? What has what, what things came from it that you never thought would have come from it?

Speaker 2:

things came from it that you never thought would have come from it. Yeah, so, uh, so I didn't really know what to expect. You know, you put a lot of effort into a lot of marketing and you know you don't really know whether or not you're really going to get anything out of it. Um, I don't know what expectations I had going into it as far as, like, is this going to be? Um, you know, is this going to be for leads? Is this going to be for branding? Is it going to be just purely to get our message out there? Uh, so, you know it's, it's been interesting to meet with clients for the first time and have them being like, oh, I actually watch your podcast. Um, or, you know, I do a lot of stuff with our local chamber of commerce and you know, being at an event and being like, oh, actually I've seen your podcast and I've seen your podcast and you know it's, it's interesting.

Speaker 1:

It's a weird feeling.

Speaker 2:

You know it's a weird feeling and the first thing that comes to my mind is like oh, I wonder which episode they saw. You know you hope it's one of the better ones, but you know it is what it is going to take. The good, the good, the good recordings and the bad recordings are all the same. So that's right, but yeah, so it's been. It's been interesting to uh, to see people actually watching it. Um, I've had a couple of friends that you know I've been friends with them for 20 plus years and don't really see them anymore and to say like hey man, I just want to let you know I just saw you. You know, you just popped up on facebook or instagram or something. He's like, I feel like every time I I log on.

Speaker 2:

You're on there again. So I was like that's pretty cool. Yeah, I'll take that so, yeah, it's amazing.

Speaker 1:

It's amazing what putting out content does. Like it, yeah it, who's? You don't know who sees it. It's, yeah, you know, and really it's the people that don't that aren't commenting. They're not liking liking, but they see it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

People see it man.

Speaker 2:

I think the other point is like it's almost freeing. You know, as a founding business owner, you are the face of the company and then, as kind of like your company grows, you know, depending on how you choose to run your business, you could still be the face of the company. I choose to kind of like lead for everybody, and if I have the opportunity for somebody else to kind of be the point person, I'd rather somebody else be the point person, um.

Speaker 2:

So it's been fun to kind of see, uh, like people recognize the company without knowing it's me, um, and knowing who our company is, without realizing, like, I'm the owner of that company. So that's kind of cool to have people buy into what our company mission is and our core values, to be able to hear people talk about it in a way that's like not like God, you know that guy from Progsteriors. So people talking about the company in such a positive way has, I think, has been one of the results. I didn't necessarily kind of understand going into it. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 1:

That's a good one. I know you're enjoying the episode, but let's give a shout out to another one of our sponsors. As a roofing marketing agency owner and coach, I've seen it all Great marketing wasted because no one follows up fast enough. That's why I built Power Up Agents, not just a receptionist. Our AI handles the entire customer journey. No one follows up fast enough. That's why I built Power Up Agents, not just a receptionist. Our AI handles the entire customer journey, from answering the first call to booking the job, to post job surveys and reviews 24 seven, inbound, outbound, even multilingual. If you want leads followed up instantly and customers nurtured automatically, visit the link in the description or visit the sponsors page on the Roofing Success Podcast website. Your full AI team is ready.

Speaker 1:

You're out in the Delaware Maryland area. I don't think you're too far from dc, right like a little over two hours yeah, a little over two hours. So maybe the, the, you don't have as many of the the the dc area employees working out in your area, but you know we're heading into some job cuts recently and uh, yeah, the economy has had its its fluctuations and things like that. Yeah, um, you started in 2009.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so we we started in in 2005 and we kind of like yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, uh, mary, the love of my life in 2006, had her first child in 2007. You know, I was still a kid when I had my first kid. So as my company kind of grew and I had my first child, I really wanted to have my second child. I told my wife I'm ready for my second. She goes well, we can have a second child if I get to become a stay-at-home. And I'm like, of course, no brainer Again.

Speaker 2:

I didn't know we were going to have a mortgage crisis. I didn't know the economy was going to tank and people were going to lose their homes left and right. I hadn't been through anything like that before as a business owner. I didn't know what that meant for me. Before, as a business owner, I didn't know what that meant for me. I think the saving grace was I was still a smaller company. I didn't have a lot to lose. I didn't have a lot of crazy overhead. So I was fortunate to be able to grow through the mortgage crisis and the recession. I had my second kid in 2009. The company continued to grow.

Speaker 2:

I had a third kid in 2012 and, and you know it's it's been, we'll say, for the most part smooth sailing. Um, you know I I always tell other business owners when I get the opportunity to talk to them. I was like I'm a wealth of information because I've made every possible mistake you can make. That's right. You know, I've made mistakes that have cost my company a lot of money. I've been burned by other companies that have cost my company a lot of money. I've been burned by other companies that have cost our company a lot of money. So I'll tell you all the things not to do and then all you have to do is write them down and just not do those things. But yeah, so having a company that was kind of just kind of starting to get some momentum going in a down economy, it teaches you how to be a little bit more scrappy with your money. Teaches you how to market when marketing dollars aren't quite as easy to obtain, when you have to be a little bit more strategic about your bidding to make sure that you keep your pipeline full. Yeah, so there are a lot of great lessons to be learned in a down economy, but those lessons need to be kind of applied.

Speaker 2:

When things are good, too, it's really easy to have a great year. I mean, I don't know a single contractor who didn't have just a banger year during COVID. You know money was. You know money was cheap. Everybody was throwing it around like it wasn't ever going to go anywhere. A lot of people that were in the labor force started their own companies. A lot of those guys have realized that, you know, jobs are a little harder to get now and they filtered back into the labor pool again. But yeah, so I've filtered back into the labor pool again. But yeah, so I've been around for a couple of down ticks, I've been around for some up ticks, no-transcript. So you just pay attention to that man, you track your numbers and you realize like hey, we had an off month and off quarter. Why is that? And usually, um, usually, you can pretty much figure out where that's, where that's coming from.

Speaker 1:

So yeah numbers are important that that's it and it's. I, like you said, being lean right, like if you don't realize that these are the good times and you are budgeting as if these are the good times or that these are normal times. You will soon find out that they are not normal times.

Speaker 2:

Agreed.

Speaker 1:

This thing ebbs and flows, and so you know you can yeah when you have your first million dollar year.

Speaker 2:

It doesn't mean you owe yourself a F-250 King Ranch.

Speaker 1:

That's right.

Speaker 2:

Too many. Do you know too many?

Speaker 1:

do you mentioned, if you just did all the stuff that you said was a mistake, or or that you didn't do right, that you would uh, that, that that you know that would be the the a good start, right, we'll call it a good start, right there there's just do that. Just just don't make the mistakes I did. Yeah, let's end with. Let's end it this way. I usually ask in a different way, but let's ask, or let's say, what are the three to five mistakes that you do not want to make in your roofing business?

Speaker 2:

All right, so, first and foremost, stick to what you're good at. That would probably be my number one thing. If you have a client that wants you to do your roof, but they also want you to redo their kitchen or they want you to redo their driveway, learn to say no. Stick to what you're good at. That's where your money is, that's what you're really good at. That's where you can keep your brand kind of in place. Learn to track your numbers. Um, learn to track your numbers.

Speaker 2:

Uh, be aggressive with tracking your numbers, because you'd be surprised how good you'd be going with a lot of money in the bank and then all of a sudden you turn around and it was like where's all my money? Um, uh, be aggressive with going after money owed. Uh, learn. Learn the red flags of when somebody is going to drag paying their bill. Learn the proper way, because every state has different laws, but learn how to lead somebody's property. Learn what your timeline is and be aggressive with sending out your red letters and going after your money, because it can add up real, real quick. We've been in a couple of different times in are in the last, say, 10 years where we've had hundreds of thousands of dollars owed to us and it sucks. It's not a fun feeling, but if you wait too long, you're never going to see that money so you'll have no real legal recourse.

Speaker 2:

And so be aggressive with making sure you're watching those numbers. Hire for personality and teach skills. I've hired a lot of people that were great craftsmen, very good at what they do, but their personality sucked and they failed quickly. Yeah, so everybody has their own version of hire slow, fire fast. I hire fast and fire fast. To me, I don't take anything personal, it's just business for me. I hire you because I hire fast and fire fast. Um to me, like I don't take anything personal, it's just business for me. I hire you cause I like you and I think I might see something in you. And if you don't work, I don't care. If you've worked here for two weeks, I'm. If it's not going to work, it's not going to work, I don't need to prolong this.

Speaker 3:

Um and then honestly, uh don't let your business become your everything.

Speaker 2:

You know it's very easy, especially in the first handful of years you start in your business. You have this goal of like I want to be this, I want to be this, and you're putting every hour that you can into something and you know it can affect relationships, friendships. You know, I know there's times where you know I have four sons Like I said, my wife stays home. And there's times where I have four sons like I said, my wife stays home. And there's times where I'm an early riser. So I'll wake up at four o'clock in the morning, get on my laptop, work until I can realistically get ready without waking her up. I'm out the door, I start doing my thing and I'll work till five, six o'clock. I'll go home, I'll eat dinner when everything's all said and done, kids are content and I'm back on my laptop doing work again.

Speaker 2:

Um, that's not really a life. Uh, you know, nowadays people respect like he's a grinder, he's a hustler. It's great you can do all that stuff or hire somebody to do it for you. It doesn't always have to be you, you don't't have to be the guy. Um, you know, build a life and then let the business kind of afford that life. Um, but yeah, and then if you're not having fun, just don't do it anymore.

Speaker 2:

So nothing's worth doing if you're not having fun.

Speaker 1:

That's awesome, man. Aaron, thanks for your time. This has been another episode of the roofing success podcast.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for tuning into the Roofing Success Podcast For more valuable content. Visit roofingsuccesspodcastcom While there. Check out our sponsors for exclusive offers, shop for merchandise and sign up for our newsletter for industry updates and tips. Also join the Roofing Success Facebook group to connect with other professionals and stay updated on the latest trends. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like, share and leave a comment. Your support helps us continue to bring you top industry insights. The website link is in the description. Thanks for listening you.

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Jim Ahlin

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