Roofing Success
The Roofing Success Podcast is a show created to inspire roofing contractors to achieve optimal success in their roofing businesses. The host, Jim Ahlin, is the co-author of the book, "Internet Marketing For Roofing Contractors, How to TRIPLE Your Sales and Turn Your Roofing Website Into an Online Lead Generation Machine", and Co-Founder of Roofer Marketers, the Digital Marketing Agency for the roofing industry. On each episode, Jim will be sitting down with industry leaders to talk about their processes, the lessons they learned, and how to find success in roofing.
Roofing Success
This One Change Took a Roofing Company from Unknown to Unstoppable with Zac Payne
Most roofing companies focus on doing great work. But what if the one thing that could grow your company wasn’t just the work… it was how you communicate?
In this episode, Zach Payne of Icon Roofing shares the exact change that took his company from unknown to unstoppable. No, it wasn’t ads, lead gen, or big marketing budgets. It was dialing in customer experience, and doing it better than anyone else.
Zach reveals how simple systems like pre-job walkthroughs, photo documentation, and clear expectations turned frustrated homeowners into raving fans. How his team built trust before tearing off a single shingle. And how that one shift created a ripple effect of referrals, reviews, and repeat business.
Want to know the playbook that gets customers to trust you more, refer you more, and review you better? It’s all here.
Watch now and steal the system.
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What if your next five-star review didn't come from doing great work, but came from doing and having great communication? For Zach Payne and the team at Icon Roofing, customer trust is built before the first shingle comes off. In this episode, we're talking about elevating every part of the customer journey, from the pre-job walkthroughs to post-job photo reports. From the pre-job walkthroughs to post-job photo reports. Zach breaks down how thoughtful systems and clear communication not only reduce customer issues but also generate referrals, retention and repeat business. Zach is the founder of Icon Roofing in Mesa, arizona. In just four years, he's built a thriving roofing company focused on purpose, communication and doing right by people. A second-generation tradesman who started as a broke college student pulling trailers, zach has transformed his business by obsessing over the customer and the employee experience. What sets Zach apart isn't just his operational excellence. It's how much he cares. From taking new hires and their spouses out to dinner to documenting every detail of a job in company cam, zach is relentlessly focused on doing the right thing for his team and his clients, and that's exactly why Icon Roofing has grown without relying heavily on marketing. It grows by reputation. So if you're serious about building a company that people rave about and refer, this episode will give you the playbook. Let's jump into a conversation about process people and doing things the right way with Zach Payne of Icon Roofing.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Roofing Success Podcast. I'm Jim Alin and I'm here to bring you insights from top leaders in the roofing industry to help you grow and scale your roofing business. Zach Payne, with Icon Roofing, how are you today, man? I'm good. How are you Good? As this airs, it's probably a lot hotter in your area. We we're talking about, uh, off camera, how, how nice it is you're down in the phoenix area yeah, yeah, we're at a mesa, which is a suburb of phoenix, yeah that's awesome, it's, it's nice today it's raining, so we're grateful it's raining.
Speaker 3:It's not 800 degrees and then in two days it's supposed to be like 102 105 for the next three months.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's really trying to take advantage. Yes, yeah, we're bracing for impact.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, tell us a little bit about icon and your journey into uh, into roofing yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:So. I started roofing in college. So my uncle owns a roofing company here in the Valley and when I was in college you know, broke college student come back for the summers, need a job. I grew up in the trades. My dad owns a foreign company tried to work for him. He didn't have enough work to keep me busy and kind of pay the bills for school and my uncle had an opening.
Speaker 3:So I worked for him for every summer during college and then I just started from the bottom pulling trailers and then eventually kind of grew to be in charge of the crew and manage the crew and then eventually I graduated college with a business degree and then I just started right into sales and worked with him for eight years and then I tried to buy one of his businesses because he has two roofing companies in the valley and this didn't work out. He wasn't ready to sell, which is totally fine with me. I was like, hey, I have my own license, I'll just go do my own thing. And that was about four years ago. So I started Icon about four years ago, been in the industry for about 12. And it's been very, very good to us. We've been very blessed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what was?
Speaker 3:the initial focus for Icon. Yeah, so I love my uncle and I see him at all the festivities I guess I'm on Monday for Memorial Day. But for me there's a few things that I just didn't love, that I feel like he had the ultimate say right. So I was like, hey, it's fine, I'll. Just I don't agree with that. So when I start my own, this is how I'd like it to be done. And that was really the premise for me was like he had a great business, don't get me wrong. But there are a few things I just didn't agree with.
Speaker 3:Like, hey, when I start my own thing, I want to do it how I want it, how I'd like if I was the client, how I'd like it to be created, and so that was kind of like the main thing for me, income aside. Like I knew we were going to be blessed either way, whether I was running my uncle's company or have my own. Like I'm sure money will follow. But for me it was like if I can do a really good job by my clients and make sure they feel like they're taken care of as I'm taking advantage of, the money will always follow. And then I also wanted to kind of create a culture of growth from within, like I'm never going to hire from outside, like this big executive position from outside, like I'm going to train you from the ground up, so that you don't have any bad tendencies or bad experiences that are kind of ruining you for lack of better terms. So I kind of want to have anybody that works for us that feels like they're being taken care of and they feel valued and heard and then as they grow with us, they get.
Speaker 3:Obviously the money comes, but like they get newer experiences Like a lot of our guys haven't really been in a management role before and now they have been like they're learning new things and some of them are you know pain points but like they're learning new things that they didn't get the opportunity to at the other job.
Speaker 3:So it's like it's cool that as we grow, people get new experiences and new arrows in their quiver for lack of better terms. And that's what I kind of want to do good by our people, do good by our clients. The money will always follow, but if we do things right, it'll also provide some really good income for everybody that works with us, because now they have in a management role or in a sales role, they can make some really good money and give a better life for their family, a better work-life balance. It's like a lot of those things. I kind of kind of stems off of the main thing of like, if I do really well by people, I think everybody else has a cascading effect in a good way, and so that was kind of like my premise of like why I want to start my own company was a lot, of a lot of factors, but they all kind of stem off one thing where?
Speaker 1:where did you get? Where did this like mindset come for you? Because it sounds like, I mean, it's you know, you, you're the broke college kid, right? We're just trying to, you know, pay some bills and and make it, and then it's like it sounds like there was some. Was there a moment that you were like man? This is like I see a bit like a much bigger vision, like what, what? What happened there?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think when I started it, that did not come across my mind like, hey, I want to do my own thing you can do right by my people. And then as I started hiring people, obviously as we grew organically and we were blessed like people started, we needed seats to be filled right. So, like people that were working with us, they sort of fill those seats. And like seeing the transformation by certain people in our company going from making 40 000 bucks a year as a salaried employee but working their butt off it like they're not really seeing their full potential or their value at all, they're being undervalued and then they're making you know crazy money and then yet growing into a position where they're going to be managing somebody. Like that.
Speaker 3:To me, like it was a switch of like we're really building something cool. And I liked that because me again, we'll always be fine financially, but if I can make somebody else be in that same situation, how much more fulfilling and enriching that is for me to have people that work underneath us or with us, that they can experience that. That was a whole mind shift for me. We're really doing something cool. That instead of just yeah, we make a good paycheck, it's like we're really doing something cool that will have a cascading effect to their family and then other kids that will grow up, you know, having a good life as opposed to a struggling one. Like there's a lot of things that branch off of that new mindset. Like, yeah, we should do it right, things will come always, but like building people up is a really big thing for me it's a.
Speaker 1:It's an amazing thing, right like that. The your ability to have impact changes so much, right like, and it's pretty crazy. So you started with what I'm hearing and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you started with I want to change the customer experience. I want to provide a better customer experience. I feel like there's some gaps here. I don't have the ability to change things in this environment, but, man, I really wish my customers were served on a higher level. But, man, I really wish my customers were served on a higher level. You know what were some of those things that you saw early on, like that, you were like I want to make sure that this happens, you know, in the process.
Speaker 3:Yeah, with the customer yeah, a lot of it is. You know from the trades in general. Like communication is terrible for the most part. So we can be better communicating with our clients. Because, like communication is terrible for the most part. So we can be better communicating with our clients because, like a lot of times the sales process is really good, like we'll communicate really well, don't be good at sale, and then they're kind of a drop off of like no one's talking to you until we show up the day we told you we were, we would be. It's like, oh, hey, you forgot about us. Like can you move your car out of the driveway so we can do our job? So, like we try to be very like on top of our game with communicating throughout the whole process, as opposed to like get the sale. Then after that it's like oh, I hope you saw that one email and don't forget we're coming. It's like we're trying to and also being very upfront about any like possibilities.
Speaker 3:Like making a very realistic expectation of hey, roofing sucks, it's loud, it's messy, uh, it's not like a quick thing, it's easy. It takes a while, especially in the valley, because we're moving tiles and tiles is not like shingling, you just throw them away like we reuse the majority of our jobs. We reuse the tiles like we just have to move them from one side of the roof to the other. That takes time, it's like it's pretty long. So, like planning and prepping our clients like it's gonna suck, don't be mad. At the end of the day it's gonna be clean, but during the day it's gonna look like a war zone. So don't be mad. And yeah, don't let your dogs out because they may step on a nail. And then we don't want to get a vet bill saying hey, you hurt my dog. It's like we told you, just don't let your dog out. Or, if you do, tell us we can go down, clean up really quickly. And then you let your dog out, do his business and then come back. So like setting a reasonable and realistic expectation for us on the sales side I think sets us up for a really good customer experience. Because if you don't, like they're supposed to read that one email you send and like, read it thoroughly. When there's 97 little outline items of like cut your grass, they move your car, take down window, uh, little picture frames in your house because there might be some vibration, you know, and then you're on your dead grandpa's gonna fall down. It's like things that they don't read. It's like if we can tell them that in person, on the front end, it's usually gonna go better. So that was another big thing, was like communications things about expectations.
Speaker 3:And then for us we do something a little different and I know some people do, but a lot of people don't. We do final walkthroughs and pre-walkthroughs. So, like, before we do the job, we have our salesperson go out, make sure there's. You know we document any cracks in their driveway, holes in their stucco, a light that's damaged. That we didn't do, but they're going to blame us if we don't have photos.
Speaker 3:And then, at the end of the job, again, even though we're licensed and bonded and insured, the government never checks our work. That's what we tell our clients. No one ever looks at roofers' work, ever. So we take it upon ourselves to go out and make sure it's cleaned up, that code is met. All the jobs, all the things we said during the job we're going to be done. We're actually executed. We painted the flashing, we put vents in here, like all the things that we say we were going to do.
Speaker 3:If nobody checks us, like the homeowners none the wiser until they sell their house like, oh crap, there's a lot of things you didn't do right. And it's like, well, we do that and take it upon ourselves so that when we do a job, a homeless fighter can come out and not have a million red flags of like you did this wrong, this on this wrong. And it's like that's. Another big thing for us is pre-walks and final walks, to make sure that again the client feels like they're being taken care of and they can feel good about investing so much money because it's so expensive, you know, and you can spend it in far worse places, I guarantee you. So if we can kind of set that expectation like we're really good at our job we're not perfect, but we're really really good.
Speaker 1:Tell me a little bit more about the pre-walk and the final walkthrough right and the expectation set and and the proof of x, proof of execution.
Speaker 3:I love that idea, yeah so it's not to be rude, a little bit the cya, you know, cover your ass type deal of like we didn't break your your flowers. They were already broken before we got there. Unless we have photos to prove it, you're going to blame us and that's again not what we want to do, but it is what it is. So a little bit is cya, but a lot of it is like hey, we sent you a series of emails and texts preparing you for this very, very big, messy, loud project. If you didn't read it because a lot of people don't we go in person and kind of reiterate everything we said, like hey, cut your grass, and it better be cut short, because if you don't cut it short we might miss nails, because nails can go down pretty deep and if you're three inches thick of grass it's not going to catch all that, and then you're going to be mad at us. And so it's like we kind of reiterate everything we talked about yeah, cut your grass, put your picture frames down, urns down off the off your your easel. Um, get your driveway cleaned out, get your stuff out of the garage, so that you don't have to like oh, can you move your trailer in the middle of the project, like no, we're using it like. So it's more like again a little bit cya, but also just like preparing and cleaning up the project as much as possible for the client's behalf so that there's, at the end, the least amount of problems that could occur.
Speaker 3:Possible is what the pre-walks are for cya, but also like taking care of them and making sure that they can have the best experience possible by again expressing anything that possibly could happen there might be something that falls down. You know, move your stuff away from the house, like if you have this very precious table that's custom made, like maybe move it away from the wall because that might come right down off the even right on top of it, um, you know, your little bird bath, whatever it is. We try to do that pre-walk of like we'll do our job only if you do your job and we kind of phrase it that way like we can only do it the best we can with our limited ability. We can't make you move your car, we can't make you move your stuff, but that's what the pre-walk is for. I think I just kind of showed them one more time that our face of like we're gonna be here on monday don't worry, we're gonna do a good job and then go over all these little line items and that kind of again just preps the client for the best experience possible. And then, yeah, during the during the job, we have our production manager, project coordinator that will communicate with the client. Like, hey, we ran into some bad wood. Or hey, the job is a day late because we started a day late, because the rain came today, which ironically is happening today. It's like we're not going to start today, we start tomorrow. And that's communication we have with them during the project. And then, once that's done, then we have final walkthroughs.
Speaker 3:So, like, once the job is done, we take the trailer away, the crew does a good cleanup, the project corner does a good cleanup, and then our salesperson goes back and goes up on the roof, takes a bunch of photos showing that we did all the work, and then meets the client and goes down there and says, hey, you know can leave us a review.
Speaker 3:Here's a us a review. It's kind of a good time to ask for a review and referrals at the same time. But then again you can be like, hey, here's your photos. We did, we'd installed the vent here. We painted all these flashing like, all these things again as proof of like, don't just take our word for it. Here's, nobody's going to come behind us and check out our stuff. I mean, when you sell the house, sure, but like, until you sell the house, no one's going to look at your roof, and so we feel comfortable leaving a project like this, doing it very, almost exhaustive. It could be better, sure, but like, we have a pretty good handle on it to ensure that the client has the best experience possible and then meet has the best experience possible. How have you?
Speaker 2:found the outcome of that.
Speaker 3:What do your clients?
Speaker 1:express to you because of this, compared to working for your previous companies and things like that. Before we carry on with the episode, let's give a shout out to one of our sponsors. I talk to contractors every day that feel stuck, not because they're not working hard, but because they're missing the structure to grow without chaos or their culture's falling apart because their team's unclear, unaligned or just burned out and when change hits they're reacting instead of leading because time and priorities aren't under their control. Day 41 Thrive helps to fix that with proven strategies for growth, culture and leadership that actually work, ready to thrive beyond the storm. Visit the link in the description or visit the Roofing Success Podcast website on the sponsors page to start your journey today what do your clients?
Speaker 1:express to you because of this, compared to working for your previous companies and things like that. Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 3:uh, most of our reviews that we get are focused on communication, like, oh, they did a good job of communicating, which is like again, nothing you really hear about in the roofing industry or the trade in general.
Speaker 3:Like, my guy can talk to me like what they have a voice that's weird, so that's a big one is communication. And then, like the cleanup, like we do a very good job. We take a big magnet and we leaf blow. We don't't just magnet, we use a leaf blower and blow off their driveway, their front porch, their back porch, again make it seem like we were never there.
Speaker 3:So a lot of our reviews like the wording is we're very good at explaining things, not mansplaining, but explaining things right and doing a good job. Cleaning up, communicating, um, talking us through the whole process, taking a lot of photos, like all those things are very good that we can see that we're doing a good job because our reviews say those exact words. If it's bad, that's yeah, probably gonna be a bad review with those words that are included. So it's like um, so it's like oh, hi, buddy, thank you. Thank you for my charger. Now I got my charger, jim, um, but um, yeah, so like we can tell it's working because of the results that we see when before most I'm sure you've seen most complaints are about communication, cleanup, um, they didn't show up on time or ever.
Speaker 3:They didn't take any photos, so we have no proof to show our insurance. Hey, this ply was rotted and like, well, here's a photo to prove it. Like, oh no, they trust me. Like no, I'm gonna trust you. You guys are the worst industry bad rep, right. So, like that's right, it kind of the results speak for themselves because we feel like we're doing again the best job we can and those are pretty good, almost immediate results of us doing the best we can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's that like I say it all the time, zach, if you listen to the show and it's if your customers are wondering and you're losing, yeah, like that's the to me.
Speaker 2:That's like that summarizes that customer experience like if? They're wondering and you're losing, yeah, and and not that they go to some dark every time they go to dark places right?
Speaker 3:Did I pick a bad person? Did I pick a bad contractor? Are they going to do my job right? Are they going to finish on time? They're going to be on budget. All these dark holes they go into. That's not a good place for your clients.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and it's not just in our industry. Right, it's in every industry, and it's not just in our industry right.
Speaker 1:It's in every industry. An example of this was in my life. Recently, my wife had foot surgery and a knee surgery Not a full knee surgery, but I don't know what to call it a scope or something During the knee. We'll call it a knee surgery. During the knee. We'll call it a knee surgery. During the knee surgery, one of the members of the surgical team screwed up and sent her some information that was out of line with expectations, talking about the recovery time and all this different stuff, and then so she called in to see you know, hey, what like wait, I thought it was this and now you're telling me that and then from that moment and then meet.
Speaker 1:The lack of trust in that process was crazy. Yes, gone right like, and then she had foot surgery yeah, and then she she recently had foot surgery and the and then meet that team and that surgical team and the staff on that team. My goodness, they were phenomenal. Phenomenal On top of it, calling you know before and after making sure, everything you know and you know if there was.
Speaker 2:Okay, you're here and doing this.
Speaker 1:Okay, now let's adjust this and do that, and, like they were just very reassured of like you're doing.
Speaker 3:You're doing what you're supposed to do, right, and of course we're not doctors.
Speaker 1:You feel far more reassured of like you're doing what you're supposed to do Far more reassured right, and of course we're not doctors, but it's just that comfort level that people feel through that level of communication, absolutely. As you have built this, I'm sure that there's been multiple iterations of it and I'm sure that it continues to iterate. Like you had mentioned, you're always trying to get better at it. Absolutely, if you had to start this process over, or you started a new company or for someone listening?
Speaker 1:what are the high points? Make sure this, add this and it's like make here's your 8 out of 10. Add these things and you're at a 10 out of 10.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I would say it starts from the sales perspective. Like if you don't set up a realistic expectation of like going through any possible problem or anything you can run into, most people don't they like to like just not talk about it and hope it never comes up, right, and it's like that's not going to be helpful. Because if it does happen like well, you didn't tell me I was going to maybe run into this, like I told you, but like if they don't tell them that's problems, like I feel like from the very beginning, setting the expectation of a, of a salesperson, of like educating them and telling them what could, what could go wrong or what could go down, and then taking really, really good photos, like we like to say we're photographers that do roofing on the side, like all you are like that's all you do is just take photos, like constantly.
Speaker 3:I love that and the more photos you take the better, the that you can show an insurance company or a buyer of a property because they want to make sure you did it right. All those things taking good documentation CompanyCam shout out to them. They're great. They easily help put it all in one place and you share the link if you want to. Some people don't like to share the link because it's incriminating sometimes to show things like, hey, we don't care, they're all your photos, it's your job anyway. So that would be a big one. And then, yeah, I think, pre-walks and final walks just to ensure that it got done right and that your client is actually happy, instead of like, oh, hey, we got the job done.
Speaker 3:Jose took the trailer away. Can you give us a five-star review? It's like, no, I hated you guys. You guys didn't even ask me if I liked you. It's like, well, we'd make sure we go a couple times like do you still like us? Did we do a good job? Did we earn like a referral out of you? We refer or view out of you. And again, it's just more touching points. Besides the sales, like transaction at the beginning. It ensures like a better customer experience, which is what's we're we're trying to always improve on is making that customer experience that much better. I'd say those are like the three things that I would say is like a big deal that made us go from like an okay contractor, like oh, we get referred a lot in this. Most of our business comes from repeat business, referrals and and you know, almost never marketing, because we don't really spend that much on marketing right now, and it's like that's what's made us into who we are, like we're really good and we know that and this is how we can show you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's what really I mean. What is overlooked in the referral aspect is that referral aspect is that's that like if you provide a good customer experience, you create raving fans, that's who then refer you. Yeah, that's it. But if, if it happens along the way where they're wondering, that's what, that's what you lose, that you lose all of those referrals. Yeah, yeah, all of the referrals. You lose them all. You don't know how many there were yeah, you actually made people pissed off.
Speaker 3:You didn't even know about you like oh cool, they suck. It's like well, you know we exist now you know we exist and you're not going to use this. It's like it's worse than before and you're not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right like it's a it's a it's a terrible that's it's a terrible thing, but optimizing that customer experience man that is. I love that.
Speaker 3:Then you found, then you got to a point where the business is growing and your team is growing and you need some people in management positions and you need some people to step up. And this other aha moment came right.
Speaker 1:How have you built your employee journey, your employee experience, your team experience? Have you thought about it in the same way that you've done your customer experience, how you know? What are your thoughts on how you built your team?
Speaker 3:Yeah, again a lot of growing pains where you're like, oh crap, I should have done that last time, but it's okay, now going forward, they're going to have much better experience than last time. So, like good people are going to stick around, right, but like if they weren't a good fit, they're going to make it very known. It's like you're just not going to make it here, you know, we'll just amicably part ways. But like I think a lot of it is the training. We don't have a super detailed like training manual, unfortunately yet, so we'll work on that. But like overall, trying to teach everybody what they could possibly need, from start to finish, and then not just, okay, see you later, good luck, I'll see you next year. Like we have a sales meeting every monday, we have production meetings every wednesdays, like all those are very important to have, so that it's just continual education, learning, as opposed to like, oh, you wrote about the guy for six days and then I never saw him again and I'm on my own now. So we don't think that's very good. So we try to again continue education but also doing as best as we can on the training side, right out the gate to.
Speaker 3:You know, we're roofers, so we could talk roof talk all the time, but like if you meet a lady or even a guy, they probably don't know roofing because they're not in the, they're not in the industry or even in the trades at all, they are in IT. It's like you won't know roofing if you're in IT. So we kind of have to start from the very basics of like it's what a roof is, this is what is wrong with the roof. We got to do it right. So training our people to like start from the very beginning like you're a child, because you are In the roofing knowledge, you are a child. You have to teach them like a five year old and I got you know four kids that bless their hearts, they're, they're learning. You got to treat them like that because that no one knows and you can use all these big terms that they're gonna.
Speaker 3:Just, I'm an electrician. Last week talked my wife like she was an electrician. She's like I was so mad because I not understand one word he talked to me about. I'm like that's what we try to avoid. I don't know what electrical crap is. It's not my job. If I'm a roofer, I'm going to teach you what roofing is. Enough to be dangerous. I'm not going to bore you too much, but I'm going to tell you the most important stuff so that you don't make a wrong decision. That, for me, is like training and and bringing people on like you know the basics, so that you can educate people on the basics, so that you're already going to be leaps and bounds better off than when before you met us.
Speaker 1:That's what. That's what. That's what that's what. That's what. That's what. You can get overly technical really quick, for sure that's um we forget that that's what that's, what that's that's we forget this stuff when we're in it every day. That's what.
Speaker 3:That's what right if you're talking about just to share the love target because it's it's right at the point like, oh, this is what's wrong. It's like, if you're not, if you're not in the roofing industry, yeah, the more dumbed down, the more basic it is, the the better you're going to be for sure how have you determined who is the the person to move?
Speaker 1:into one of these management roles, or how have people shown you that they're ready for the next level of development?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Again, learning curves. Sometimes we thought they were the right fit and it just wasn't right. Right, but a lot of people that we've had, you just kind of look beyond them as a as an employee, but like as a person, do they have the right mentality of like teacher first type mentality and servant mentality, as opposed to like I'm gonna be a dictator and you do what I tell you, to it's like well, that's not gonna work very good for some people maybe, but for most people they don't like to be dictated, they like to be educated and grabbed by the hand and say, hey, this is how you do it, or let me show you so you can watch how I do it, and then you just copy and paste on the next one, right? I kind of view the person as more in-depth as compared to what their work experience is or their technical skills are now. Like I can teach you how to roof that's not hard. I can teach you how to, how to sell or how to propose something. But like I can't teach you to be a good person, I can't teach you to have integrity, I can't teach you to want to educate somebody about something. So like, hey, europe's 20 grand money please Like that's not going to work. You have to tell them why it's gonna be 20 grand to do a new roof. The person behind you know the shirt is what really matters to me, because that will help me decide. Are you in there for the long haul? Can you be a servant leadership type person which we want in our company?
Speaker 3:And then, yes, as they start to grow, are they on track to be somebody that I would feel comfortable managing somebody? Are they going to be a jerk if somebody screws up? Like no, be very reasonable. We're humans, right, we're going to screw up. But how you react when somebody screws up, I feel like is huge, because you could really think they're, like you said, their trust or their own self-confidence. If you say, hey, you're the worst human that's ever lived, that's not going to help them be better. You're the worst human that's ever lived. That's not going to help them be better. Like, hey, you did bad thing, it's fine, we can work with it, just try this better next time. And if that person's already like a abrasive person, they're not going to be that manager material that we want. But if they're like, hey, man, I get it.
Speaker 3:I was in there. I was in that position too. I screwed up. I hit a trailer one time Like that was my fault. I went up to it. It's like if you're a reasonable and a good human being, you're probably going to make it, make it work, as long as you're a hard worker as well. There's those two elements that have to meet together. But, like it really is, the person I look for is are you, could you be a manager? Not are you one now, but could you become a manager and a leader of of men and women? That's important to me.
Speaker 1:So what I'm hearing is you get to observe them over time on the team. Yes, there's time on the team and you're observing. How are they interacting in this situation? How are they interacting in that situation? How do they receive feedback? How do they receive feedback and how do they receive? Did you do something about it?
Speaker 3:he's like oh yeah I got you, I got you dog. Like did you actually? Like, yeah, I didn't like it better, because I can see if you didn't do it right. It's not very hard. Yeah, so we also have quarterly review. That's something that we I never had at any of my companies before is an actual review on a quarterly basis. Even the annual basis would have been great.
Speaker 3:I said, like hey, here's your bonus for the court or for the year, and it's like 500 bucks Like cool, thanks, man. But like hey, on a quarterly basis, this is what you did Great, this is what you could be proven and it's not your fault because you didn't know that having a pretty routine performance feedback of like you're doing great, dude, keep it up or you're not, you're not doing terrible. There's some things you can work on, of course, just like we all can, but like knowing that, instead of once a year or even never, like I just don't see how you can improve as a, as a professional employee or as a professional in general, if you're not getting feedback constantly and having something to work towards. Like of course, you're going to be stagnant and bored and burnt out because I have nothing to work for and look forward to yeah, it's a it you there's, there's definitely the right person.
Speaker 1:And now what do you do if, like I guess, how have you dealt dealt with people who are not the right people? I would assume that you've had a couple now in the four years that you've had Icon. Yeah, you know what do you? You know what. How do you manage that? How do you? How do you not just throw up your hands and go and no one does what they're supposed to do? I know you're enjoying the episode, but let's give a shout out to another one of our sponsors.
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Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's hard, I feel like people are tricky. You know like they'll. They'll tell you whatever you want to hear in an interview, and I do lots of interviews with every person, just because one interaction is not good enough. So, like, the more times you meet with them, the more like you can actually see the personality and the person in general. So some people are tricky and again when I was first starting out I was like hey, you're higher, let's do it now.
Speaker 3:It's like hey, there's a lot, there's no shortage of humans, there's billions of us, right. So it's like you just gotta find the right person. There's billions of us to choose from. In america there's not as many billions as like asia, but like there's a lot of us here. You just aren't picking the right people and that's's on you.
Speaker 3:Like I have to own that as the owner. That's on me. If the people aren't on our bus, that's on me, and that there's no one else to blame. It's not because they're not the right applicant out there or right fit for us out there, but because we didn't hire or do our due diligence of looking for the right person. That's on me and I have to own that if that person screws up or they don't work out it. You know that happens if we kind of let people go and, uh, what is the this thing? It's um, firing is knowing, hiring is guessing, and it's like hiring is guessing, firing is knowing, and it's like I know exactly when you're not the right fit because you I gave you lots of opportunities.
Speaker 3:but it's like when you hire you try to make the best educated guess on it and as I've had more interviews and had more people work with us, like you start to realize like it's not their past experiences who they are as a person. Are they teachable? Do they take feedback? Well, are they going to work hard? Are they going to be have integrity? Are they going to work hard? Are they going to be, you know, have integrity? Are they going to be a good person?
Speaker 3:At the end of the day, I can work with that individual and the more you know that person on an informed like hey, this is who we are.
Speaker 3:Like I'm a person, you're a person, my wife's a person, your wife's a person or your husband's a person, like that's a little unorthodox, but like I like it because you are part of the family as much as you you don't want to say it like your, your significant other is just as much part of our business as you are.
Speaker 3:Because if they don't like where you work or they're not supportive of you, you're not gonna be able to function at your prime because you're worried about? Are you staying out late because you have to work late, as your, as your spouse can be pissed off when you get home, when it's after hours and it's like. So we try to get the spouse involved because, as much as it hurts to say like they are part of our work family, very much so, and we don't want to be like oh yeah, who's your boss, like I don't know some bald dude that's ugly and, you know, has a weird voice, like that doesn't help. But if we can get a good rapport with them, like hey, this is who we are, hope you like it. If not, it's fine, it's it's fine. It's not the right fit, it's fine.
Speaker 1:but then we try to do events during the year as well, to kind of again get some camaraderie and that family feeling in an industry that is a little bit cutthroat sometimes, so we try to do that unorthodox approach sometimes. That's awesome. How have you developed? You said you're doing multiple interviews. Now You're doing the dinners. My friend, terry Gualti, talked about that on the podcast before. That's one of his kind of fundamental things that he does in his company. You know, where did you? How have you gone about developing a hiring skill set?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've learned to ask better questions as I've gotten older. I'm 33, but when I started I was 28. And I'm sorry, 29. I can't do math. I didn't really ask the best questions when I was hiring.
Speaker 3:And as I've gotten older, I'm like, hey, why don't I start writing the same questions for each person and then I write down, I type it all down how they respond and then I go back after the interview is done, like, hey, how did that person respond? Did they actually answer the question or did they kind of skate around it by answering their own way that they thought was clever? And it's like you didn't answer all that question, bless it. By answering their own way that they thought was clever. It's like you didn't answer all that question. Bless your heart. But like that was not all what I asked. So I was like, can you actually answer a question? Good, um, and then again I was apologized beforehand, like I'm gonna take notes. I'm not, I'm not not listening to you, I'm just typing. And every person I meet with I take very good notes of like how they are, how they respond and answering the same questions. Everybody kind of gets over the same baseline of like I asked the same question. They answered it completely different, in a good way or a bad way.
Speaker 3:So I think the answer and the question that mostly writing down their answers is what's been really helpful to me is technology is amazing. I did a lot of interviews over over the internet like like a zoom call or indeed whatever it's called. So great because they don't have to come in, I don't have to, you know, coordinate my schedule, like be here for an hour and hope they show up, to also agree, if they don't show up because I didn't have to go to the office, make sure that they were there it's like, hey, if they don't show up, it's fine. I didn't really no sweat off my brow, but technology is awesome. So I do a lot of video interviews and then I bring them in and then, yeah, the last step is I got the idea from dave ramsey actually, where he takes the spouse out and his spouse yeah to dinner, and I was like that's a good idea, I should do that. It's a little unorthodox, but like it helps me. That gets them out of their professional, weird, um, you know, corporate world of like hey, we're all people, man. Like the more you understand that we're all people, we all just want to have a good life and be good people like the better you're going to be.
Speaker 3:So I think for me has been documenting the interviews, um, writing down good questions and then just kind of evaluating. We have hundreds of applicants. It's like how am I supposed to go through all these people? And it's just like doing it very slowly, methodically and it's it takes a while, but it's so worth it to go through hundreds of people to pick the right one. It's like I felt good about this. Again, it's not a guarantee, because every it's not a guarantee, but like you can feel, like you did your due diligence the best as possible. That's how I felt like as an interviewer. I have grown and learned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's much different than I always say. This too is early on, like we're almost hiring assistants, not people that own the role. Right, we're just. We just need someone to help, right, and we need them now. So we hire versus recruit and I think the difference is hiring is like fast now need, recruiting is finding, is sorting through the pile and finding that person who has a higher probability of working out in that role and owning that role Right. Um, I think that's awesome. Man, that's great, as you've, as you've gone along.
Speaker 1:You started, I know you're mostly residential still but you've started this journey down the multif-family path. What's what? What kicked that off?
Speaker 3:honestly, I don't know how the market is in minneapolis but, like here in the valley, there's a lot of apartment complexes and condo complexes and downhomes and they all share a roof, which means that nobody owns their roof, because how do you determine who's sally's and who's sues? So it's all covered by the hoa. So, like there's the hoa aspect and there's, like the the you know the manager of the property um aspect. And as I've been in the industry for almost a dozen years now, you just learn that there's a lot of. I also love it because a lot less people to deal with.
Speaker 3:Jim, because you know you do this big project, you only deal with like one manager or one board and the board can be a few people, but like overall, you don't have to deal with this one person. This is their pride and joy, it's their house, it's their roses that you're going to damage and it's like those are the people we try to avoid. And if you're in the multiamily side, it's like it's less to deal with and it's it's transactional. It's not like your feelings are involved because it's their job, it's not like it's their house, like hey, do a good job, do it right, clean up, be nice, that's all I care about. So like, oh, you have to do this, my dog wakes up at six by 601 and it's like all these things, you have to deal with it. It just is so obnoxious sometimes and as we've gotten more multifamily projects, it's like this is what we really like and if we can ramp up and do more of this, I'd be tickled pink. Because residential is great, it's what pays the bills and we love it. But also there's aspects we don't love about it and we could do more multifamily side and so we've been very blessed on both ends.
Speaker 3:But, like, we are very oriented and focusing on all that family side for that exact reason, because there's a lot of communities out there, probably more than you can count um, but again, it's usually a more seamless project. Um, commercial same thing you have one person you deal with, that's it. You don't ever talk to the tenants or have to deal with anything. You just make sure one person's happy and then you move on um, and residential is a little bit different. So we, we really like the multi-family side and, yeah, sometimes the projects are massive, but, like, overall it's far and away much easier of a process.
Speaker 3:We tell them something and if they don't tell their tenant it's their fault. I told you you're supposed to tell them and it's like sorry, we're not legal to talk to you, tenant, because we only work for the manager. So again it kind of gets us out of a lot of the problems we deal with of like, hey, can you come look at this inside or can you replace my light bulb? It's like I didn't want to be here. It it's in the roots. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not.
Speaker 3:It is a much more transactional type of relationship right, it's much more of a business relationship. What?
Speaker 1:were some of your inroads into multifamily. How did you get your first project? How did you start to get? Your second, third, fourth, how have you gotten, how have you started down the business development side of the multifamily?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely so. There's a different way. There's residential property management where it's like you have a rental property and there's a multifamily side. We used to do a lot of the residential side, but then most people are like it's a rental property, I don't care, just get it done as cheaply as possible. It's like, well, that's certainly our clientele, we don't. We do more of a good job than like a cheap job. So we we focus more on the multi-family side because people live there and they want to invest money in like a good roof, because they live there full-time, so the board or the hoa in general will choose a good roofer because they're they're going to live underneath that roof too.
Speaker 3:And so, learning that there's community managers and property managers out there and a lot of times it just was a referral like hey, my friend does manage this property, can you look at it? Sure, great, then we get in with them and they manage if you have more property. So it's kind of like this huge tree that goes unnoticed or undeveloped a lot. So it's like I think I've heard you say before like the really good contractors take one job into many and that's really problematic as well, like there's so many properties out there in any in any market. I'm sure texas is slammed, california obviously has a million, and it's really. You don't really grasp the gravity of the influence you could have until you just start. And you just start to eventually develop and get into more managers, more communities, more associations, and then it's just like the thing. Just you know you taught a person how to fish, as opposed to give them a fish every once in a while, like you know how to do things.
Speaker 3:Now, business development is still tricky because there's a gatekeeper you can't get past. Sometimes you have to get an in with somebody to get past that gatekeeper. But once you do, it's like you know there really is a sky. It's endless. The sky's the limit and it it's. We always say we're blessed to be here, of course, but there's so much work to be had.
Speaker 3:I don't really view anybody's competition because my I'm my own competition, like if I screw up, I screwed up, it's not because that guy beat me, it's because I screwed up, and there's so much work to be had that I think we have a scarcity mindset. Sometimes it's like no, there's again, there's again. There's billions of people, there's billions of properties that need roofs and homes that need roofs and it's like you just don't think of that a lot of times because you're all about the next sale and it's really about how can you make that person love you, to give you lots more. And instead of just this one sale, think about their neighbors, their friends, their family.
Speaker 3:They may have properties that they manage because they're wealthy. They got a property up north. We love going up north because it's not 800 degrees up north and it's like it's great and, as we've grown and learned, like there's. You just got to start and then be consistent with it. Once you stop being consistent, all your hard work is basically gone because you didn't keep feeding that flower and that's going to wither away and die unless you keep watering it.
Speaker 1:That's it. You've really developed a long-term mindset. It sounds like You're not in an abundance mindset because, my goodness, there's a lot of work out there.
Speaker 2:There is Fundance mindset because, my goodness, there's a lot of work out there, like down in the Phoenix area.
Speaker 1:I don't know how many thousands of contractors there are, but there's a few thousand right, like you know. You know, I think the number in Dallas is like six or 8,000. I would guess Minneapolis is four or five, like I'm sure Phoenix is probably similar four or five, 6,000. Like there's a lot of work to be done, yeah a lot of.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of chucking trucks, a lot of jose's and hose bees that don't do the best work and it's like, hey, man, it's fine, but there is a.
Speaker 3:There's a very good opportunity for a good contractor to do a good job and stand behind their work absolutely even reputable ones, I hear about all the time. They just don't show up after a warranty call and then it's like dude, like how are you supposed to stay in business when this is your job? You screwed up and we're out here fixing it for money and it's like I just don't understand it.
Speaker 1:I don't get it either, man. It blows me away sometimes. Just be a good person it's I mean that it's pretty simple, right it's pretty simple, right it's pretty simple you like to believe, so Be a good person. Yeah, how have you thought about the customer experience from the multifamily level right? What type of communication rhythm have you found keeps them from wondering in that type of relationship versus the homeowner relationship?
Speaker 2:I know you're enjoying the episode, but let's give a shout out to another one of our sponsors versus the homeowner relationship. Join the community of roofers who don't really like roofers. We share our winning secrets to help each other dominate in today's fast changing and unpredictable times. Click the link in the description to apply to join.
Speaker 1:What type of communication rhythm have you found is, you know, keeps them from wondering in that type of relationship versus the homeowner relationship?
Speaker 3:yeah, we have it really doesn't change much. The wording changes because it's not like we don't need to move your, we don't need to, you know, cut your grass because, like you have property management company that manages the landscape right, so we don't put that in there. Um, and a lot of things are a little bit different, but for the most part we treat them as a normal residential client because they have the same steps and processes of hey, we're going to do your job, it's going to be noisy, it's going to be loud, um, or it's going to be messy, uh, we're going to be on this day, this time. It's going to expect this many days to do it, and we kind of treat it just like residential, just a little bit different, but for the most part it's the exact same, because the more the manager knows, or the H-Way board knows, the better you're going to be off, because then they can tell their tenants who, by the way, really pay for this thing. We get the check from one person, but really it's the whole community that pays for it.
Speaker 3:So it's like if we piss everybody off over here and we make this person happy, they probably won't like us very long. So it's like if they, we do our job here, they can relate everything to these people, who are hundreds and thousands of people. That's good if we can tell them. To tell them, we're gonna be much, much better off, and I think that's what misses. A lot is like okay, we got a job, let's go do it. It's like you need to tell the manager or the hoa so they can tell everybody else don't, don't leave stuff out, it's going to be noisy. Maybe don't work from home that day, work at a coffee shop that day, because it's going to be loud enough where you're going to be pissed off that you can't hear your boss talking because we're banging so loud it happens.
Speaker 3:So the more we can prep the board and the manager to prep them, I think is something that again, for us, has helped a lot getting out of a lot of these problems of like, oh no, we got to go right now and go do this because they didn't know about it. It's like, hey, we told them and we'll still be nice about it, but if the managers didn't do their job, you know that's not our fault. But if we don't do our job, telling them about it, that's absolutely on us and that's something that we need to take internally very hard, because you know again, in a very long way of answering it. It's very similar.
Speaker 3:It's a little bit different with the wording and certain things you do need to include. Like, hey, there's going to be a trailer in your property for a long time because it is a big job, it's going to be moving around, sure, but like there's going to be this big black thing with our logo on it for a very long time, so don't park in front of it please. All these dumb things that you would think are common sense. But it's like, just in case, we're just going to include it in this email and when we call the manager we're going to tell them that, just to be safe, because we don't want to have any problems.
Speaker 1:That's right. So there's a, there's like a kind of an analogy or saying that, like, where, like, if someone becomes a millionaire and they go broke, that that they can come they, that they can bounce back really fast because of all the lessons that they learned along the way of the what, the personal development that happened in becoming that that, or in in achieving that financial status right or that financial, in that financial achievement. If, if everything went away today, zach and you had to start over from scratch, what would be the like, what would be the game plan, what would be the core focus?
Speaker 3:I would say there's two things. The first one would be focused on getting good people on your team, because that's who really is your company, are the people that work with you. So don't worry about the experience or their skills, but the person in general. Are they a good person? Start with that so that you can build a good foundation of. You know, sales will always come, but you can't always have good people if they weren't there from the beginning. If they're good people, they should be even better people down the road, because you know money corrupts people. But if they were already good people, money doesn't corrupt them, they just do more philanthropic things with it. So I'd say the first thing is good people and the second thing is think of the customer experience and making that as best as possible, because almost everything is based on this one or this one.
Speaker 3:I feel like I could be wrong, but like if it's the person that you, that you that works with you and then the service you provide, everything else kind of branches off of that. So if you make this as best as possible, I think that's what really separates you from anybody else is, if this is my house and it was being replaced a roof on today. What would I want it to be like? And think of it from their perspective and making as best of experience as possible. That way you get referrals, reviews, repeat business, like everything kind of feeds each other if you have good people doing the job and then you provide a good service and a good experience. I think that would be if I were to start over. What I'd focus on is like good people, good service and a good experience, and then everything else kind of takes care of itself.
Speaker 1:That's right. Everything else will fall into place, zach. It's been awesome. Thanks for your time today, man. This has been another episode of the Roofing Success Podcast. Thank you for tuning into the Roofing Success Podcast. For more valuable content, visit roofingsuccesspodcastcom While there, check out our sponsors for exclusive offers, shop for merchandise and sign up for our newsletter for industry updates and tips. Also join the Roofing Success Facebook group to connect with other professionals and stay updated on the latest trends. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like, share and leave a comment. Your support helps us continue to bring you top industry insights. The website link is in the description. Thanks for listening.
