Brand & New

Breaking Barriers Boldy | A Conversation with Daniela Pierre-Bravo

• INTA • Season 6 • Episode 10

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In this fourth and final episode in the “Women Leaders Series,” Ayala Deutsch, host of Brand & New and Executive Vice President & Deputy General Counsel at NBA Properties, speaks with Daniela Pierre-Bravo. 

Ms. Pierre-Bravo is a force to be reckoned with in the media world and beyond. As a journalist, bestselling author, and fierce advocate for young professionals and women of color, she brings a fresh perspective that's both inspiring and actionable. From her journey as a former DACA recipient to becoming a prominent voice in career development, her story is one of resilience, determination, and breaking barriers. Ms. Pierre-Bravo shares how she's redefining success on her own terms. 

The Women Leaders Series is a collaboration between Brand & New and The Women’s LeadershIP Initiative. The series brings together women leaders in diverse roles, not just in the IP space, but within brands, small businesses, and beyond.  

This episode is sponsored by Sideman & Bancroft LLP and includes an interview with partner Kelly P. McCarthy. Based in San Francisco, California, Sideman & Bancroft LLP is proud to be a women-owned business and leader within the IP community in terms of its commitment to diversity and how it promotes equal opportunity. It is also the sponsor of INTA’s recently published gender indicator study, Shattering Systemic Barriers: How to Advance Gender Diversity in the Intellectual Property Profession.

Thank you to Sideman & Bancroft LLP for sponsoring this episode of Brand & New.

RESOURCES: 

Speaker 1(Ayala) 

I'm Ayala Deutsch , executive Vice president and deputy general counsel at NBA properties and the 2020 President of the International Trademark Association. I'm also executive champion of the Women's Leadership Initiative and the host of today's episode of Brandon New. This is the fourth and final episode in the women leaders. Series, a collaboration between brand and new and the Women's Leadership Initiative. It brings together women leaders in diverse roles, not just in the IP space but within brands, small businesses and. Beyond these powerhouses aren't just watching trends unfold, they're creating them. They're the ones shaping the landscape for women leaders today, paving the way for generations to come. I've been inspired by their stories, their insights, and their vision for the future. Speaking of incredible women shaping the future, I'm thrilled to welcome. Our next guest, Daniela Pierre-Bravo, Miss Pierre Bravo, isn't just making waves. She's creating tsunamis of change in the world of media and bio. As an MSNBC producer, best selling author and fierce advocate for young professionals and women of color, she brings a fresh perspective that's both inspiring and actionable from her journey as a former DACA recipient to becoming a prominent voice in career development, her story is one of resilience. Determination and Breaking Bad. Myers, Miss Pierre Bravo is here to share insights from her journey and how she's redefining success on her own terms. Before we jump in, I'm pleased to note that this episode will conclude with a short conversation with Kelly McCarthy of Seidman and Bancroft, based in San Francisco, CA. Seidman and Bancroft is proud to be a woman owned business. And leader within the IP community in terms of its commitment to diversity and how it promotes equal opportunity. It's also the sponsor of ITA's recently published gender indicator. Shattering systemic barriers, how to advance gender diversity in the intellectual property profession. So please stay tuned for my conversation with Kelly. So now let's dive into our conversation with the dynamic Daniela Pierre-Bravo, Daniela. Welcome to Brandon new and thank you for taking the time to chat with me. 

Speaker 2 (Daniela) 

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.  

Speaker 1 

So you've had quite the journey. Can you take us through some of the early struggles you've faced as an undocumented immigrant? And and how you managed to overcome those challenges? 

Well, I didn't have somebody before me. That kind of showed me the lay of the land of how things were going to workout. I found out that I was undocumented early on and there was not one person that kind of sat me down and told me, OK, you're undocumented. This means that this and this and this store. Is going to. Be closed for you. I slowly came. To figure out that all the doors. For my future, really, we're going to be closed unless I did something about it and it's really a struggle. Not just me, but it's it's the stories of many undocumented people across the. If you get into college, you don't qualify for any government scholarships. I couldn't get out any loans, and so it was really an uphill battle, but we managed to go through it as a family. I took off the semesters here and there made my way through college, through cash, paying jobs, and there was really one summer that made all the difference. I was in a tiny town in Ohio, going to call. And I knew that in order to find more opportunities and to find professional mentors. Right, because I. I always knew that I I needed to grow my network. Not knowing exactly what I was going to do, but I knew that that wasn't going to be in Ohio because of my circumstances. And at the time, I was still in the shadows, which means that. I didn't share my story with. Anyone not friends, not guidance counselors, not anybody at school. Not ex boyfriends, right? Nobody knew. And so it was a very isolating experience, which is why I knew that I I needed to get to New York. Long story short, I ended up lying on my resume and said that I lived in New York, so that the hiring managers of the unpaid internships that I was applying to. You wouldn't come up with a million excuses not to give me that first call. Back and so I ended up getting my first call back. It was at the time a a selective marketing agency and they give me a call and they say, hey, we saw that you're local. Can you come in for an interview tomorrow? At the time I remember, I was in the library setting for an exam and I like panicked and said yes. Of course I'll be there tomorrow. I hang up. I'm still, you know, in the middle of nowhere in Ohio. And I ended up. Begging a friend to drive me to Cincinnati, which is, you know, the major metropolis next to where I lived at the time. And I got on an 18 hour bus, 9 steps to the. Night ran into. Port Authority. I've never been to New York before. But ran into the unpaid internship interview just in time and and when I told them that story, they looked at me like I was crazy, you know, they said you could have. We could have done this over Skype like any other normal applicant, but I just wanted to show how hungry I was for that opportunity. And so Long story short, I ended up getting that unpaid internship and several unpaid jobs in New York. That I had made it into a city where I could at least be a sponge to my environment, where I could at least learn. And even though I was in document. It gave me the opportunity to have the etiquette and to kind of figure out, OK, these are the the clues of what it means to be a professional. And so by the time DACA came, which gave me an opportunity to have a work permit and really an identity in this country, it was like everything changed in that moment and. From there, kind of the sky was the limit. 

Speaker 1 

That's amazing. I'm never going to think of Port Authority in quite the same way. Finding our voice can be tough, especially for young women who are just entering the workforce. How did you learn to? Speak up for. Yourself, especially given you know what you described as perhaps isolating circumstances when you weren't really. Sharing your story. 

Speaker 2 

That's a great question. And I think that I've had my own internal struggles with that. And I've learned because I've had such great mentors and career sponsors that what you give up when you don't use your voice far supersedes little moment of panic or fear that you decide to raise your hand and and advocate for yourself. It was a real struggle because. It was my identity. I carried a lot of shame being undocumented and that really started coming to the surface when I was in. A position of power. I worked my way up at NBC Universal and finally I had a seat at the table. And you know, I had triggering circumstances where, again, I felt isolated and like the only, you know, I was the only woman, the youngest on the team of the editorial staff, making decisions for the next day show. I was the only immigrant. Right. And so you start thinking of yourself. The other one and the only and the other, and you start kind of self isolating. Before anybody does that for you, in part because it's a protective mechanism, right? It was my way of finding safety, but I struggled at the beginning and my career suffered at the beginning. And I'll give you an example. You know, being in an editorial room, finding your voice and raising your hand, especially advocating for your ideas, is extremely important because. I worked in a team of three people that decided the next day, show editorial and decided who was going to be on the show. I worked on a morning show for two. Years. It was really important for me to raise my hand and make my seat at the table known and for a year or two years I missed out on great opportunities to use my voice because I let that shame of my own identity or oh, what are they going to think? That I have some sort of agenda for being an immigrant? Like, what does that even mean? Right. But I I made these things up in my brain. Again, as a protective mechanism, so. The only way that I think you get over this is to keep trying, because what I've learned in my research and my writing about women in the workplace is that confidence is a muscle and getting outside of your comfort zone, the more that you do it, the more that you can build techniques to speak more articulately to. You know, feel like you belong and as we. Start thinking about it as a must. 

 

Speaker 1 

Well. The more opportunities we have sometimes to fail right and maybe not to say that the things that you mean to say and the way. That you mean to say them? The more you build that muscle of confidence and the more that you build that. Muscle of finding. 

Speaker 2 

 

Your voice, I think that's a great way to look at it. I also tell a lot of young women, I think women find it much easier to advocate for others. That they care about you on their team and I tell a lot of young women fight for yourself the way you fight for all those other people. You deserve it just as much. And that seems to be a mental switch that a lot of young women can't take. So. I love the idea of thinking of it as a muscle. You have to exercise. I think that's great. 

Speaker 1 

And that's such a good point of distancing yourself in those moments that feel really scary when there's so much on the line. I always say, you know, in my book I have this concept, like you are your own LLC, right. So when you're advocating for more at work, when you're negotiating for yourself, if you're doing it for the company of goods that you represent. Right. And so it allows you to distance yourself a little bit from it feeling so personal, because I think, you know, based on my research, women personalize everything, right. When it comes to work, whereas men have a much. Your job? Yeah, I'm sometimes lying and asking for more and being outlandish, and they get it right. They get what they ask for and yeah. And so just creating that distance, I think is so important. So let's talk about your work with know your value for those who don't know what it is. Can you talk us through it and talk a little bit about how. 

Speaker 2 

 

Absolutely. Working with this platform has shaped the way that you see women in the workplace. So Maria Valley was created by Mika Brzezinski. It was a follow up to her book know Your value, which is New York Times bestseller. I mean, there's so many great stories that came about Google men that read it and they were able to make instant changes. In their career. And we had the opportunity to work together in 2019 for a book dedicated for younger women starting their careers right, knowing and growing your value at the beginning of your career because research shows that women start out. Behind for men, and they never really catch up. So it's a snowball effect. Know your values started out as a series of conferences and now has grown into a media platform and. I'm so grateful to to be in partnership with Mika and to continue contributing to the platform and it's really about raising the voices and the stories that impact women, whether from an economic perspective. No, there's so many things that are trickling down from an election point of view that we cover and it's really allowed for me to create my own platform with my second book. All the other and I've created a community based on that book called Accesso, which means access in Spanish. Because one of the most important things that women can have in their careers to really make a difference is access that access point. Because that access I think for so many has been closed off early on and that's why we see so many repercussions, especially for women of color Latinas. In the workplace. 

Speaker 1 

 

Yeah, that's very powerful. So it sounds like working with Mika is amazing and she's clearly influenced your own career and personal growth. Can you maybe share one or two kind of? Inspiring life. Changing lessons for Mika that have really stuck with you or been difference makers in your own. Path. 

Speaker 2 

 

So many, I mean, I think that we detailed on the lot in the book, but one of the things that really stuck with me is when it comes to negotiating, take your time, right. Oftentimes, I think that women kind of beat everybody else to the punch. So if there's silence or we fear that, ohh. If we give this person too much time to think they're going to backtrack and. Take this opportunity away from. Right. So giving giving space to that moment in negotiation, right, so say what you're worth and wait for the other side to come to you as opposed to kind of jumping into the silence and filling up the room with words. Right. And talking yourself out of the deal. So she gives a lot of good advice when it comes to. Negotiating and advocating for yourself effectively. And look, she was the first person that really. He told me that my story mattered, right, the whole story about being undocumented and and rising up in in media. You know, I I I didn't necessarily feel comfortable sharing it because it's extremely vulnerable, right? And it's not so comfortable for me. But she really. Showed me the power of telling my story and the power that storytelling has because. When we wrote our first book together in 2019, she didn't have to put me on covers of magazines with her right. She didn't have to take me to the national tour on the view or today show she could have done it herself, because obviously she was the well known of us right between the two of us. When the book came. And so that really I think changed my chip in terms of what it means to sponsor women. Yeah. And what really makes a difference? And it's something that's inspired me to do it for my audience and my cohort that the book is intended for as. Well. 

Speaker 1 

 

That sounds amazing, and she sounds like a great mentor. Maybe speak a little bit more. I'm sure you've now had the opportunity to both be a mentee but also be a mentor. Maybe talk a little bit about what do you think makes a really strong, successful mentor mentee relationship? Tech. 

Speaker 2 

 

It's a two way relationship and I think that a lot of young people get so consumed and finding the right mentor right that they will just ask, hey, can you be my mentor and it and you know this more than anyone, right. When you're in a position of power, when you have a position of leadership. You don't really have room to be a mentor. Everyone, but if you can create a moment of trust, a relationship that goes both ways, a true emotional connection, I think that is hands down. The one thing that I've learned with Mika is we've created kind of an emotional connection to one of one another because we've created a deep sense of trust and it's building your value and. Very small but tangible ways. If you are starting out your career, chances are that you don't really have a lot of value. That is the. Truth, but you. Can find a way to be valuable, right? And so for me, when I. Started out like I didn't know anything. I couldn't. You know, I I wasn't a great value to her, but I found out how to make the best coffee in those first couple of weeks. And for someone that wakes up at 3:00 in the morning, five days a week, has to Co host a three hour now 4 hour show that coffee was like a lifeline. Right. And so for me, that was my tiny way of creating trust in the first couple of weeks. And of course I, you know I value in other ways too, but you really just have to find that little way that you can give value to someone even if it's supporting somebody. 'S career, you. So if you have somebody you admire, like, go on their LinkedIn comment when they have achievements, share their stuff, praise them. Yeah, right. And so I think it's like we put so much emphasis on this one person like, can you be my mentor as opposed to trying to find a vehicle of making that a two way St. relationship? 

 

Speaker 1 

I think that's a great tip because it really can be something big and significant, of course, but it also can be those little things that form connection.  

 (((AD INSERT)) 
 Seidman and Bancroft is proud to sponsor this episode as well as I NTA's 2024 gender representation study entitled Shattering Systemic Barriers Out to advance gender diversity in the intellectual property profession as one of the largest women owned law firms in the United States. Simon and Bancroft is committed to establishing a balanced and positive environment for their attorneys and. Yeah, no matter their gender identity, you can find the study on itvswebsite@ita.org  

when you mentioned your first book that you Co wrote with Mika and was a best seller, I might add, earn it, know your value, and grow your career in your 20s and beyond. What surprised you the most? During the process of writing that book. 

Speaker 2 

 

What the process of writing it is that it was going to be harder to tell my story and that I was going to. To be a very uncomfortable with that, Uncomfortableness gave me an opportunity to grow my voice even more. So I go back to that first question you asked me about finding your voice, and I think it's when we own our story and we finally come to terms with it and we know that it's for a greater purpose that that starts clicking right. And that's why, you know, in my second book. And we talked a little bit about this in in the first book that we wrote finding or why is extremely important because when you can connect. Your story and your trajectory and what you've gone through in your career through a why and by the way a why can be money, right, so that you can creatively have a better life, right? A why could be making an impact on the people that you serve another life can be a vulnerable and compassionate leader so that people that work for you. Feel comfortable. There's a million ways to have lives, right? But once you can connect that to your through your directory and your story, especially if you feel different or you felt like the other, your voice will be magnified. I think that's one of the biggest things that I found while writing it is that I suddenly started to have a voice at work because I started owning my. 

Speaker 1 

 

Right. Yeah. It's amazing for people new to their careers. Women especially. They're so worried about saying the right thing or doing the right thing. And sometimes you have to learn it by living it. But I just try to tell women authenticity drives all the things that make you have. 

Speaker 2 

Yeah. 

Speaker 1 

 

Impact and success. It drives confidence and credibility and connection and. All these things that you could pay a lot of money to go to seminars on, so much of that comes from just finding and staying true to your authentic self. So Speaking of that, how do you manage to stay true to your authentic self, your background, your story, but also fit into the different workplace cultures that you've encountered in your? Career. 

Speaker 2 

 

I love that. You brought up the word authenticity because in my research and writing of figuring out what makes great leaders, not just women, but men, there is a deep sense of ease. And ease is a requirement in order to be authentic because you have to embrace all parts of you. And what I found is that, unfortunately, with so many women of color, so few at the top in the C-Suite and places of director roles and manager roles, it's because there is a deficit of that. These, and therefore women, are afraid to be authentic because they they've had to find these rules of belonging in order to feel included. For a lot of women of color, it's comes from a place to to find safety, right? Because there are real racial components to that. And so that's extremely important. And I go back to your question, you know how I've been able to do that in my own place of work. I found power in ease. And I think that's like the next phase of what I'm going to be writing about because it's so understated. That in order to find ease, you have to come to terms with who you are and you have to feel like you are valuable. Yeah, I had this conversation a lot with especially Latinas, but in. Women of color and. General, when they get to the C-Suite, they've gone to the C-Suite, of course, because they're talented and they work hard, but often they have to lose parts of themselves because the reality of it is, is that there are a lot of bias against women of color. And so when you get to the top, it's. Almost like you need to shed parts of who you are in order to find belonging. And I speak to Latinas. I I, I I mentioned Latina because I was. I was just having a a dinner with several founders and CEOs that were Latina. And when we started talking about our latinitas, our backgrounds, our cultural components, it was very hard for them to talk about why they have not embraced their Latino identity. And there's such a resurgence now of leaders that want to own their Latino. Don't know how. Yeah. And I go back to that deficit of authenticity and it's because, you know, we talk a lot about, like, ohh, bring your full self to work. Well, what does that mean? Because for so long I've been told in so many different ways. That my full self doesn't belong. Yeah. And so the number one key I think there is representation and then a bunch of other things. But studying this has given me a better understanding of how to bring my own self to work more authentically. But again, I see the benefits. I see the benefits because because I have a platform and because I've. Written about it. Sharing my story. I think and the feedback that so many other women have gotten through reading my story and and learning about my own trajectory is that authenticity is extremely important. But we have to find that. Ease. 

Speaker 1 

Yeah. And it's interesting. I remember going to an unconscious bias training and there was a graphic that was so impactful for me. The instructor was saying when you are another in the room, a Latina woman, you know another or one of you know. 

Speaker 2 

Right. 

Speaker 1 

So much of your focus and energy is subconsciously. 

Speaker 2 

Right. 

Speaker 2 

Yes. 

Speaker 1 

Directed at AM I looking right? Am I sounding right? Am I fitting in and this instructor to me made this incredibly compelling point? Like, not only do you not have that ease and are you not exercising all those right? Muscles, but you're actually potentially detracting from your actual performance because your focus and concentration and brain power are all going to maintaining what you perceive the right the right image. Me and he showed it on this pie chart and you're just sitting there, going well. So let me understand this. A white man is dedicating zero of his energy to any of this. And I'm dedicating this much of my energy in this key meeting. That's crazy. And so just seeing it represented like that was incredibly impactful for me. 

Speaker 2 

I'm so glad that you brought that up. Because I think that's one of the things that is not. Highlighted enough and. What happens when you continuously put energy on things that are not about the job, right, that are not about the bottom line that are not growing you that are. It's not about advocating for yourself, you start to get burned out. And what happens when you start to get burned out? You kind of give up. And so I think when we, I and I, I, I I talk about these reports all the time, right. That thing that make up 1% of the C-Suite, that thing that's have two broken rungs. Of course, black women also suffer and Asian women and a bunch of other subgroups of women of color. It's because there is an incredible sense of burnout. That is not being talked enough about, and it's specifically about where you just touched on. It's like all this energy is going elsewhere, right? In terms of creating a safety net. What do I say? How do I show show up? What do I not say? How do I make this person feel comfortable, even if they're making me feel uncomfortable, right. And so it's all this wasted energy on everything that has everything to do with not the job. So I'm so glad you. 

Speaker 1 

Brought that up so I should just mention the second book that you've been referencing is called the other. How to own your power at work as a woman of color, but you have not just been focusing your message on young women entering the workforce, but also women. Over 50, which is me. So now in its fourth year know your value has teamed up with Forbes for their 50 / 50 list. So through your work on that project, what have you learned about the unique power and value of women in that age group in the work? 

Speaker 2 

To take Mika's words here, because this is her baby and her black arm is up the runway for our careers is a long one, and that is so exciting. As somebody who is in my early 30s because I think the message for so many was that we were kind of racing towards, you know, an undetermined clock, right, that our careers were going to end in some ways. And in our 40s or 50s or that we had to decide between raising a family or staying in our career. And what this platform, what this incredible list that Mika has created with 50 / 50 is to show that the best years and the most impactful years when women begin after the age of 50, which again is incredibly exciting for somebody who does feel the pressure right to. Figure out what I'm supposed to do and and I think it's so important because we talk about burnout. We talk about creating ease. You know, there should be pockets of maybe stopping our career and saying I I need a break. I need to take a little detour. I need to go get inspired or I need a little break to have kids or whatever that may be, because it's different. Everybody but you can do it with a sense of relief and a sense of excitement that there is no cloth now, right that, that is, is ticking your way. It's it's a long runway and we can make. An impact well. After 50, I mean the stories of these women that are on this 50 / 50 list is just incredible. I mean, 50 is just the starting point and I know that there were several women on the list because it's something that the list has been, you know, I think on its fourth or fifty or now. And some women get nominated and want to apply, but they don't. They're not 50 yet, so they can't apply. And I just, it's incredible. I've I've gotten to interview some of the women on these lists, and they're just legendary. But I'm glad that there's this visibility because there haven't been before, which is incredibly exciting. I agree with that. I when I was reading about this to prepare for our chat. 

Speaker 1 

I thought back to the things that I've accomplished in my profession since turning 50 and it was. Is a a more robust list I think than I realized and I say a version of Mika, saying it's a long run. Why I always say if you're lucky, you were. Your book has a lot of chapters and some of the chat really good chapters are toward the end of the book, not necessarily only at the beginning. And so that sounds like an amazing project. Well. 

Speaker 2 

Me. 

Speaker 2 

Right. 

Speaker 1 

I'm going to ask you to look back a little and look forward a little. So looking back, you could just jump in a time machine and give your younger self one piece of advice. That kind of one of those I wish I knew then what I know now what? What would you tell your younger self? 

Speaker 2 

You know, it's funny because I think of myself my younger self, the 18 year old, the 19 year old, that really had to be so scrappy and had to be so focused in order to get herself out of that situation that she was in and she was so fearless and so resilient. And what I think is that that 18 year old is now giving me advice. Right. And so I think that. She would tell me, you know, don't be afraid to just go for it and continue taking up space. I think the more that we get a little bit older based on my experience and the more we get closer to positions of. Power. The higher the stakes feel right, and the more sometimes the scarier it feels to use your voice and advocate for yourself effectively. And every time I'm in a space of power that I'm afraid to raise my hand or to say what I mean, I think about that 18 year old, that fearless 18 year old. And what she would tell me right now and she would just say. Before it you belong and and that's the voice. That was kind of fermented as an 18 year old, 17 year old, 16 year old, because of all those closed doors. And honestly, she's giving me advice now. 

Speaker 1 

Yeah, that's great. Keep listening. You are so looking forward. Where do you see your career heading next and and what's the next big dream that you're chasing? 

Speaker 2 

I mean, I think first and foremost, I'm a storyteller. I love telling people stories, especially in communities that are marginalized because I have. I've seen first hand the power of telling those stories I worked for Morning Joe for 12 years, and I've gotten access really to front row, seated history, from covering 2 presidential elections. And just telling the stories and having the. Opportunities to go into communities whose stories have not been told, and seeing how the greater public reacts to it changes their mind to some things. And I just I feel so strongly about storytelling and I want to continue doing that. First and foremost. I'm growing out excessive community as well. So everything that we've talked about in terms of. Advocating for yourself, effectively picking up space as a woman of. Color I do a lot with different entities. Corporations. I do talks and things like that. So I want to continue expanding that message and bringing more women under the umbrella. Of excess so. Because I think that they're, as you mentioned, there's so much power and authenticity. But in order to be authentic, you have to create ease in order to create ease, you have to feel like you belong. And that's what I. 

Speaker 1 

Want to do more of? Well, that's a lot of dreams, and if past is prologue, I'm confident you'll achieve all of those. Before we wrap up, do you have time for a couple of quick fire questions? 

Speaker 2 

Yeah, let's do it. 

Speaker 1 

What is the biggest misunderstanding about what you do professionally and and how would you? Clear that up. 

Speaker 2 

I think a lot of people like to put people in boxes and I think I'm part of the generation and especially the generation after us that are multi hyphenates that like to do a lot of things at once and it's about making an impact. So I think that putting people in boxes can be easy, but I think my generation and the generation after us is really shaking that Ted score. 

Speaker 1 

Great. What is a new skill you would like to learn and why? 

Speaker 2 

Well, that's a really good question. I would like to learn more languages because as I think about expanding my my journalism career, I'd like the opportunity to connect with more people. And I think language is the best. Way to do that. 

Speaker 1 

That's great. Are you good at languages? I'm horrible at them. 

Speaker 2 

Well, I've gotten training wheels with Spanish and English, so TBD. Last question, what is your favorite word and why? He's yeah. And I think I've kind of explained it. There's so much power and ease because when we feel comfortable with ourselves growing confidence as a muscle and that can be so much easier to do. 

Speaker 

OK. 

Speaker 2 

Do you have a deep sense of ease? 

Speaker 1 

Yeah, I hadn't framed everything you were saying in particular through that word. But I think I will now. It definitely resonates with me. This has been such an incredible conversation. Daniela, I thank you so much for sharing your insights and experiences and your infectious energy with us today. Your journey is truly, truly inspiring. 

Speaker 2 

Thank you so much for having me. This is really. Fun I appreciate it. 

AYALA AND KELLY INTERVIEW 

Before we go, I want to bring in Kelly McCarthy of sideman and Bancroft. As I mentioned at the top of the show, Seidman and Bancroft is proud to be a women owned business and the sponsor of ITA's recently published Gender Indicator study. Kelly, welcome to Brandon new as a woman owned law firm, have sideman approach, mentor, mentee, relationship. And what are some of the unique benefits you believe young practitioners can gain from those relationships in a women LED work environment? 

Well, you know, it's very interesting because in a place where you're working, that is women owned, there are plenty of women mentors available just by example, all over the firm. There's many senior attorneys. Who are women who have had significant careers and significant success in their careers? And so it's very easy as a young person in the firm to find somebody to talk to about what their journey has been. And I know I benefited from that both at the. Firm and at my previous firm, which was not women owned, but discussing with women who'd been there, who'd seen what it looked like before, helped me look at all of these issues and figure out when I was seeing things that made sense. And when I was seeing things that I need to look through another lens. And so at the firm, although we do have a very formal. Mentoring program. If people want to take part in it, I think that the day-to-day interactions of examples and discussions that just pop up organically are so incredibly valuable, and it's something that that I think we all seek out at every level in the firm. 

Speaker 1 

I totally agree. Those are the most impactful. So work life balance is a critical issue in the legal profession as it is everywhere. How does your firm address that challenge, especially for women who are to face in their career where they're balancing caregiving responsibilities with their professional path? 

Speaker 3 

Yeah. And I think this actually just gets to the crux of the issues with women working in high impact careers. And I think that it's a difficult question because balance is not a term that means the same thing to every person. And when you're working in a law firm, you're in a service profession, right? The clients are always in need. And when they need things, they they need them when they need them. And that doesn't necessarily coincide with bedtimes or soccer practices or anything else that parents need to be dealing with. And. And it doesn't just come with young kids. It comes with teenagers as I'm. Seeing myself, so it's definitely a a hard thing to do, but really, you know, I always think that the word we need to be going back to rather than balance is flexibility. 

Speaker 

Right. 

Speaker 1 

I think flexibility is so critical it may be one of those lessons COVID forced us to learn that is more valuable in a sustained way, I think than. We realized last. Question for young women starting their legal careers. What advice can you offer to help them build confidence and effectively navigate a professional? Learning in what has traditionally been a male dominated field. 

Speaker 3 

Well, you know. I think that's hard to be A1 size fit all kind of piece of advice. I think that people run the gamut with their comfort levels, but for me it has always been the motto that there's no bad conversations meeting every single person that you possibly can spending time learning about somebody in their journey. I think is what really has made it so that my career has been able to flourish. Conversations that I had when I was in. My mid 20s just starting out at at a INTA meeting have turned into lifelong friendships, lifelong mentorships, lifelong client relationships, so going at interactions with other people is not a way to get something out of it for yourself, but as a way to learn all of the various stepping. Zones. I think it's really important being ready to meet as many people and as many opportunities as you can, I think is the most important thing for just building confidence and building experience and building your network. 

Speaker 1 

Thanks, Kelly. Certainly something I NTA reinforces every chance it gets absolutely, Kelly McCarthy from Sidman and Bancroft, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciated the conversation. To our listeners, we hope the conversations you've heard in our women leaders series have sparked new ideas, broaden horizons, and maybe even ignited a few dreams. Keep pushing boundaries, embracing your authenticity, and supporting one another. Until next time I’m Ayala Deutsch, thanks for listening to today's episode of Brand and. New.