The Wild West of Web3

What happens when counterfeiting, crypto, and trademarks collide? This episode of Brand & New  takes you inside the fast-moving world of Web3, where brand protection meets blockchain. Host Willard Knox chats with Moish Peltz, of Falcon Rappaport & Berkman LLP about the opportunities, and risks, facing companies in decentralized digital spaces. From NFTs to stablecoins to enforcement strategies that actually work, learn why blockchain is reshaping how brands defend their identities online.

This episode was recorded during INTA's 2025 Annual Meeting in San Diego.

Related Resources: 

About Moish Peltz 

Non-Fungible Tokens (NFTs): A Report From INTA (2023)

Transcript

Willard Host: [00:00:00] Welcome to Brand and New. I'm your host, Willard Knox, editor-in-chief of the Trademark Reporter. At the International Trademark Association, in this episode, we take you back to San Diego, where earlier this year, INTA held its annual meeting. Among the many thought provoking sessions was one that looked ahead to a fast evolving frontier for brand protection, Web3.

That panel called Securing Brands on Web3 Enforcement, abuse Prevention, and Anti-Counterfeiting Strategies for the Blockchain was moderated by today's guest, Mo Peltz, partner at Falcon Rappaport and Berkman, LLP based right here in New York City. Moist leads the firm's ip, blockchain and technology practice.

[00:01:00] Advising clients on how to safeguard their brands and innovate in digital spaces that are still being defined in our conversation, Mo explains what Web3 really is, why it matters for brand owners and how blockchain can also provide new opportunities for enforcement and abuse prevention. From counterfeits to phishing attacks to the rise of NFTs.

Moist helps us understand both the risks and the practical strategies that brands should be thinking about today. So join me as we explore what trademark enforcement looks like on the blockchain and why brands can't afford to overlook Web3. This episode of Brandon New was prerecorded during T'S 2025 annual meeting, which took place during the week of May 17th through May 21st in San Diego, [00:02:00] California.

In my other hat, the trademark reporter, we had published an article, I guess it was last year, maybe the year before.

On, uh, Web3 on blockchain. I was joking earlier that I, you know, I, I understood every single word of it, and that includes the footnotes. Um, but, you know, one of the things I, I, I think it's a great topic and I was very sad that I was, I was actually in a plane, uh, the session, uh, securing brands on Web3 enforcement, abuse prevention, and counterfeiting strategies for the blockchain.

Um. I dunno if you wrote the blurb. I'm assuming you did. 

Guest: I did not write the blurb. Oh, I, I don't think so. Maybe I participated in his writing, but if you, as you I give it Got it, got it. Got away from me. Oh, no, I, I can totally speak about it, but yeah, there, there's quite a lot to digest. I, for the, 

Willard Host: just for the listeners, you know, I mean, they're not as knowledgeable as you and I, so I want to, you know, I'll give them, maybe the blurb is more targeted to the, you know, the uninitiated.

Sure. I'll just read a little bit about it. But it, it was [00:03:00] the, the topic, the, the session was to delve into innovative enforcement strategies and advanced tools that brands can leverage to protect their intellectual property and the Web3 landscape. Increasingly, brands will seek to enforce their trademarks and prevent abuse in the digital asset ecosystem.

While the pseudonymous and decentralized nature of blockchain presents new challenges for brand owners, it also creates opportunities. By harnessing next generation analytics and tracing tools, brands can find effective solutions to these new challenges. Alright, so, um, sound familiar? 

Guest: You know what, now?

Now it rings a bell. It's actually really well written. Yeah. I think that was, now, now that you're complimenting it, I'll take credit. No, 

Willard Host: no. I think for a complex topic, you know, it's, it's succinct. It's like, it's, it's it, you know, it's patchy. It's interesting. Um, I know when I first read the article for the T-M-R-I-I, true confession, I had [00:04:00] never heard of Web3.

Sure. Uh. I'm gonna assume I'm not alone in that, but, um, 

Guest: well, I think that that is directly why I think it's such an important topic for, for this forum and for really global trademark attorneys is because I think there is a pretty wide set perception that if once something happens on the blockchain, even if, if you understand up to that point.

Which of 

Willard Host: course I do, 

Guest: which of course you do. But I 

Willard Host: have questions about that, but I'm probably gonna skip those just because you know, we all know what that is. But yes, carry on. 

Guest: But the reason this came about was I think there's, there's a very broad perception of, well, there's nothing you can do about it.

'cause it's on the blockchain, it's anonymous, let's just leave it there. There's nothing further we can do. And I think that's incorrect. And so that kind of started the, the thought process of how do we begin to discuss among the, the trademark community of the kinds of tools and resources that are available.

In case someone's curious, someone wants to say, Hey, there really is something infringing or abusive taking place on the blockchain. [00:05:00] What can I do about it? And, and then start to answer that question. 

Willard Host: So, so I, I was gonna say, I'll play dumb, but this is actually true, which is like, so my browsers and I won't give any, you know, they're all, they're all good.

They're all good. Yeah, of course. Uh, that's internet. That's web two. Web two. Well, 

Guest: web one. It, there's, and this is a, 

Willard Host: before my birth obvious, we could debate 

Guest: this. 

Willard Host: Yeah. 

Guest: Uh, would be just the, the internet that you read and consume. So that would be, you know, you, uh, you go on the New York Times and you just read the homepage and that that is you as a consumer of that information.

Willard Host: Okay. 

Guest: And then web two is, is the social internet where, you know, communities are, are creating and they're commenting and they're posting user generated content and all sorts of things. Oh, okay. That's Web 2.0. And so there's this. Dynamic interchange of people reading, but also commenting and sharing and remixing and whatever else.

And Web3 [00:06:00] 0.0 is then this, this what people are styling. Web3 0.0, which I think is a definition that is still kind of fuzzy around the edges, right? But generally means a, a decentralized internet that is no longer hosted by a very large, uh, internet company service provider. Oh, but is instead, uh, something that is on, uh, this, you know, either decentralized web.

Blockchain or, or some other related technology that enables, um, you know, really community ownership of these platforms that are not beholden in many cases to a large centralized intermediary or internet services company. 

Willard Host: Oh, wow. So we're talking like, so we are beyond my internet, outta my, my laptop or my phone.

You know, like we, we When you say decentralized, you mean like we're beyond the, and those are great companies by the way, that run those. Oh yeah. Right, right. But we're talking. Like, like truly more democratized and, and you know, decentralized, like this is not, um, like you said, not beholden to, you know, there's certain, my sense, again, my ignorance, like there are certain companies that [00:07:00] offer me the browser, you know, so I, in my mind, like that's where I'm, that's how I'm accessing the internet.

Like, I, I don't otherwise like, but, but what you're saying, like Web3 is more, Web3 0.0 is like, or the idea of it anyway is like, we're like sort of like the next. Level, right? Like the future. It's like where, where we're going with internet and things like that. Like it's a, it's not, 

Guest: that's, that's the idea.

Um, but again, e even the very large web players understand this and, and are actually very active in providing services for blockchain related. Um, so all, all the major internet companies have some sort of blockchain product just as they have some sort of AI product. And so they're, they're also using these technologies.

And many of these, you know, if you said Noel, I can't really act. You could access it on your phone or a, a regular browser. But there are extent, like, you know, there not all of these technologies are natively supported by that. So it really depends on what you're trying to do, what you're trying to access.

Um, and from a brand owner perspective, [00:08:00] there's just a lot more beyond the surface of what you need to know to really be able to navigate what's happening and whether it's something you need to be concerned about as a brand. 

Willard Host: So one of the reasons I wanted to, I, I was thrilled that you said yes to this interview, was I thought, you know.

This is someone who can actually explain these. You're already showing this, you know, like, these are, but these are, I, I think these are brain squeezes. You know, it, it's a heady 

Guest: topic. It can be, 

Willard Host: yeah. Yeah. Like, like blockchain. Don't tell my boss. I mean, I've heard about blockchain for quite some time, and if someone said to me at a party, Hey, Willard, you know, see you work at ITA, you know, what about, what's this blockchain?

I'd be like, oh, you know what? I just remembered. I've gotta feed the cats right now, but you know what, I, I, you know, gimme your email and I'll, I'll, I'll have someone, you know, I'll call you. We'll do lunch. Yeah. I'll get back to you. You know, I, I mean, I really have, I've heard it explained so many times and I thought like, this is gonna be the guy who, where, who's gonna say, like, this is, you know, what's the, what's the short, you [00:09:00] know, like you were explaining it to, you know, like, like a child.

What is the, you know. The, the, the average person can really grasp what, you know, that, that, what is blockchain would you say? Is there a short answer? And if there is, what would you, what, how would you describe it? 

Guest: There's probably not a satisfying short answer. I think, I think the medium size answer would be, if you can conceive of Bitcoin, which is the, it's the first blockchain, the first cryptocurrency.

And the idea is there's, there's a trustless decentralized payment system where if you. Want to pay someone else money. You can use crypto as a store of value. You can use Bitcoin, a store of value. And when you do that, you're not relying on a financial institution, a bank, any intermediary. It's a, it's a peer to peer payment system.

And what the blockchain does is it solves the problem of how you track, you know, I have one Bitcoin, I [00:10:00] send it to you. Now you have one Bitcoin and I have zero without. Someone double spending or using someone else's money. And so it's really this decentralized system for tracking initially Bitcoin crypto payments.

And then what happened is after that blockchain came out, this is all open source code. People can take that code and change it and evolve it and allow for new futures. And they said, well, why? What if we create instead of a, a blockchain that just tracks Bitcoin, why don't we create a blockchain that tracks.

Transfers of other assets, like why don't we think about NFTs? So why don't we think about a blockchain that can track transfers of artwork or transfers of movie tickets or transfers of some other, um, digital asset is really, I think, the right, right? But, but instead of that being tracked through a centralized intermediary, like a big company that's in charge of maintaining that database, all of that information is tracked.

[00:11:00] Decently by a community run system Oh wow. Where no one person has the right or ability to unilaterally make a change in that system without the consensus of the community agreeing to that change. 

Willard Host: Wow. Well, I have to ask you, since you mentioned NFTs, um, you know, I'll bring it up again later, but that there's another one that I've heard about for.

Uh, you know, I hear it all the time and I don't think I'm alone. Like, like is there a short, like, you know, for the non-functional token, is there, you know, I hear about it in the art world and I was like, the art world. Like what is the, what's the, you know, uh, the, uh, the slow student answer for, you know, I'm really making myself, I'm not, I'm not as dumb as I'm presenting, but I, you know, I think a lot of people really don't like, they, they hear it all the time, but they don't really know like, what is it, what is it actually.

Guest: Yeah. And it's definitely a topic where it's really easy to hear it 10 times and just have, you know, in, in one ear and out the other. Um, and it really, I think, takes some experience of, of sitting down and using the technology to, [00:12:00] to start to crack that code. 'cause it, it really takes a mindset shift of, I'm used to using, you know, the New York Times, I'm used to using Facebook, I'm used to using and, and it's just like, it's a different method of 

Willard Host: Oh yeah.

Of 

Guest: accessing the internet. So I feel like it's a way you, in a, in a way you really wanna see it. You wanna feel it. And that helps. But to answer your question, well, you know what, what are NFTs are basically a, a, a digital, it's, it's a receipt that tracks some. So on the blockchain, I said, you can transfer different assets, so you can transfer a fungible asset.

Fungible, the terminology here is insane. That's part of the problem. Right? And so I'm using these terminology. Yeah. But like, what does fungible mean? That's just whatever. It's a word. Um, but Bitcoin is fungible. You can just like a, a dollar, you can, you can pay someone a dollar. And if I pay you a dollar, it doesn't matter if I pay you a particular dollar with one particular serial number or any other dollar.

$1 is a dollar. Oh. And then you can break it up. You can pay someone in two quarters or four quarters, or 50 cents or a hundred cents. You, it's divisible, [00:13:00] almost infinitely. Um, and so that's what fungible means in this context, and non fungible means in this context, that instead of having an asset that's infinitely divisible, that's interchangeable that.

You can, it doesn't matter if I want one Bitcoin, I don't care which Bitcoin you give me. I just want the value of one Bitcoin and NFT is meant to represent an individualized asset. 

Willard Host: Oh, 

Guest: okay. Okay. So this is a particular, it's like a house, a, a car. Ah, okay. Uh, a piece of artwork. Right. If you want, like, there's, there's, you know, you, US case law always understands that if you wanna buy a particular house and someone says, no, I don't wanna give you that house, I wanna give you some other house.

That, that's not acceptable. That's a breach of contract. Right, 

Willard Host: right, right. 'cause there's 

Guest: specific performance for the house that you selected. And so the same thing for, for NFTs, it's, it's finding a way to capture ownership of, of a particular individual digital asset. Whether it's a piece of art, which I think a lot of people saw with NFTs and the 2021.

Yeah. Yeah. 2022 era is, it's kind of like the funny, like [00:14:00] pictures of monkey JPEGs. Is the, is the example of, well, that's, that's the art and that's the art that we have the IP rights to put on the blockchain and move around and play around with these concepts of IP licensing and copyright and so forth.

Um, but the, the quickest version is it's really a way to transfer, uh, individual assets that are, that are not divisible, but that represent a, a whole piece by itself. 

Willard Host: So you, yeah, that's interest. So you're, I I actually do understand now this maybe probably for the first time, so thank you for that. Uh, the, so mo like the, you know, you're talking about case law.

I, I was thinking like, so in, in your practice, like, I mean, do you think, you know, there's always, there are always these expressions like, oh, the law is very slow. And that's a good thing in a way because, you know, things can get, especially with ai, it's like, you know. Maybe it's good that somebody's not keeping up, you know?

'cause you need some kind of controls and some kind of institutional, like, let's slow this down. I mean, what's your experience as a lawyer like with these, you [00:15:00] know, you're very conversant in the technology and it's, and it's evolving all the time, like. What's your experience like with courts? I don't know if you, if you deal with that stuff, you know, litigation, like, is it, are you, you know, is the case law, is the law keeping up?

You know, there's all this talk about ai, which you're not here to talk about as much, but you know, like is the law. You're like, please don't make me talk about ai. You know, but, but, you know, which is another reason I was like, let's please do this topic. 'cause I'm, I mean, I think we're all a little, you know, like burned out on ai, but, um.

You know, it, it like, how is the, how is the law doing and how are the courts doing with, you know, judges and things like that? Like, are they keeping pace with it? Are they, are they catching up and what's the, what's your, just your, I'm not, and I don't even say have to name names of judges or courts, but I just mean our law, you know, general, like what's your sense of where the law is versus where the technology is?

Guest: Yeah. I, I think it's really difficult because the technology is. Almost inherently always ahead of where right [00:16:00] lawyers in the court system are. And people are constantly just innovating and doing new insane stuff that no one thought about or maybe wasn't even possible before this technology enabled it.

So that, I mean, from a, a legal perspective, it just inherently creates friction around what are these things doing? Are those things that fit neatly into the existing legal system or not? And then what sorts of challenges do they raise that perhaps hadn't been predicted? Mm-hmm. Or there just isn't a good clean, easy answer for a judge or an attorney to just jump in and, and make a decision.

And I think what you're seeing is, um, and the way I think about this in my practice and, and the way I think about it in, in our law firm is I, I really believe just like ai, which I won't talk about 

Willard Host: No, no. We can talk about it, 

Guest: but, but that blockchain is gonna impact every practice area. Yeah. Digital assets, crypto will impact every practice area.

And you can run through the gamut of why, [00:17:00] you know, you pick a practice area and I'll tell you, uh, whether it's real estate and tokenizing real, real property, or whether it's IP and tokenizing ip, um, or whether it's, uh, um, I, I, I, I really think, I mean, even just law firms can accept payments, uh, global s and cryptocurrency, right?

So Oh wow. Could impact the operation of a law firm. 

Willard Host: Wow. So I think 

Guest: all these issues are things that. Have not yet been digested through the court system. And I think you're seeing different courts in different jurisdictions, both within and outside the United States. 

Willard Host: Oh, wow. Wow. 

Guest: Grappling with these topics at at different speeds and really depending on, you know, if and when these issues have been presented to the court and you're seeing, I think, you know, I'm in New York and we have this Southern district of New York, and you have judges that have these extremely well credentialed, really bright law clerks that are young and hungry and trying to understand.

The applications of the, and so you're seeing really interesting decisions come out of courts like that. [00:18:00] Um, but then you're seeing, um, you know, like, uh, not, not to denigrate, but just like it's, it's more difficult for, let's say you're, you're in a different state and you have a, a divorce case where there's a ton of crypto at issue and the judge doesn't have the law clerks or the resources or literature to look at and say, what do I do?

When there's tens of millions of dollars at issue in a crypto 

Willard Host: Oh wow. Divorce 

Guest: case, and how do I divide up those assets and how does that legal issue differ than the way I would think about dividing up any other, it's like, I think that's, that's what I'm seeing from my seat is every practice area is really impacted by that.

And I think thinking about what I'm doing at inta, it's about, well, how, how do, how do trademark practitioners think about protecting, enforcing brands and how does that translate to the kinds of activities that are now happening? In, in the digital asset space. 

Willard Host: Wow. Wow. Like that. That's like that. I love that crypto example of like the, like, wow, what a, I mean, divorce is [00:19:00] never great, but wow.

You know? No, the judge, you're getting it wrong on the crypto. Um, the, the, so you were talking, talking a little bit about like brands and this, this is what the session was about, but, you know, I want this episode to go beyond the annual meeting as great as it is. Like what, to me, like the way you described Web3 now I sort of get it.

But it sounds a little bit like, a little bit like a wild West show, you know, which is what the internet was considered, you know? So I think what, what's interesting, and I, you know, I want to hear a little bit more from you, was like, sort of like, I think to me the, what I picked up was like, you know, we're all talking about ai, but we, we shouldn't, we, let's not move past Web3 just yet, and blockchain, because there's, there's a, it's still evolving.

There's a lot, you know, happening and brands need to be aware of it because. What, like what, what, what's happening on Web3 that they, you know, like, yeah, yeah, check out AI and of course, you know, keep your, have your, you know, people up to date on that. But, but don't forget about Web3. Not saying that they're forgetting about it, but [00:20:00] like, you know what I mean?

Like, no, I, I, I think it's fair 

Guest: to no, like, I, I, I, AI is really cool and I think is similarly groundbreaking for a lot of legal applications and, and practices. Um, but I, I do think that. Uh, but one, blockchain's not going away. 

Willard Host: Right. 

Guest: Even though there was this huge bubble and it kind of came into the public consciousness, right?

Right. And then it went away. Oh, it's dead. I guess it doesn't matter anymore, but if you look at, at, at, it's not talked about as much in the media, right? In, in, you know, the front page of the newspapers. But if you look at the, the on chain activity, the amount of people that are using it to transact in their daily lives, um, I think one of the examples we had in our panel.

Um, Susan Sterns, who's the IP council at at PayPal. 

Willard Host: Yeah. 

Guest: PayPal launched a, a PayPal, P-Y-P-U-S-D Stablecoin. The whole stablecoin industry stable coins are, are meant to, just to back up, are meant to be, uh, a UA one-to-one representative of a US dollar. So if I send [00:21:00] you one stablecoin dollar, it's equivalent to one US dollar.

And then you can always have certainty unlike Bitcoin, which fluctuates wildly in price. Right, 

Willard Host: right. That 

Guest: your, your crypto is. Denominate in US dollars and will always be worth $1 or a hundred dollars, whatever the amount you have is. And that category of crypto is actually the, like really hockey sticking in terms of the, the hockey sticking and the, the amount of transaction value is just going off the charts.

And it's really this, this idea that people all around the world are using stable coins to transact with their friends and their neighbors and their community and to interact with businesses because it's easier and, and cheaper and more. More frictionless than using a bank account, especially, you know, if we're in the US and we have a bank account and we have a credit card and we have a debit card, we don't think about these things.

Willard Host: Right? Right. But 

Guest: that, that, that may not be the case. And it, and it's proving to not be the case in other areas. So you're seeing a lot of really interesting, um, companies enter the space and they're starting to have a lot of [00:22:00] success, even if it's not talked about widely. And these fundamentally are really big brands attached to large financial institutions, uh, you know, FinTech companies.

Things like that. And these, these things matter, right? If, if someone is creating a knockoff version of your stable coin and they're creating, you know, user harm or distrust or abuse, that's a big deal that you have to think about as a rant. If someone's using a decentralized domain name to host a, a website that is again, creating consumer confusion or, or causing abuse or a phishing attack or stealing someone's money using your brand.

Um, that's a big issue. So you need to think about those things. And, you know, maybe it's not at the level of AI where, oh my God, we need to catch up and we need to do this. But I think every brand should be thinking about the relevance of blockchain to their business and be thinking about, you know, what sort of protection enforcement strategy makes sense.

And may, maybe it's very low lift, maybe it's nothing. But for [00:23:00] companies, I think, especially in the FinTech space especially, that are, that are seeing, um, you know, Web3 type abuse related to their brand. Oh, wow. Or being impersonated. Um, it's something I think they should think about a little bit more and be more proactive about, because, you know, the reality is we can go into kind of more what we talked about in our panel.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are things to do and there's ways to be more proactive, but it really involves, you know, thinking critically about it and having those things in place. Before the harm happens. 

Willard Host: Wow. Wow. So you're saying like, this is, like, this is happening now, like, like this, like the knockoff, you know, stablecoin, like, this is what, like, you know, I know what I, I, I, I'm pretty sure I can recognize a phishing email, you know, when I get the email from, you know, it's always Norton Antivirus, and I'm like, who?

Who uses? Who uses Door? Does anyone anyway? No, no fact, that'll have to be cut. I'm sure they probably remember, but, you know, but that they're always, there's like a typo. There's something where you're like, come on, this is, but in my mind, that's as far as I go with like really getting the, the, you know, pretending to be PayPal or [00:24:00] pretending to be so and so, like the collecting, uh, they're just, it's amazing to me that, that anyone would click.

I mean, I said that and now I'm gonna do it later. I'll, I'll click through something. I shouldn't, but, you know, it's so obvious to me. But this is like a realm of. It sounds like, but I want to hear from you. Like, are we talking like you, like knockoffs and things? Are we, are we dealing with like, sophisticated actors that are up to this stuff?

You know, more so than the person somewhere, you know, calling me and saying, I'm, I'm a, I'm prince or princess from, you know, and I, and I need you to make a deposit for me, like. What, what is the level of like the bad actor in the Web3 space, would you say? Like, you know, like what's the level of, I mean, is it easy to go after them?

Is it, is it more, are they more sophisticated, more subtle? 'cause they actually, like you said, you know, coding, you know, like, what are we, like what, like what are, what are brands looking at in that space? As far as the threat level, 

Guest: I, I think there's a huge range and it, it's shown that there's incredibly sophisticated actors including, you know, state sponsored actors that are, that are doing.[00:25:00] 

Harm and are transacting state sponsored. Yeah. They're stealing Crip, they're stealing crypto, and they're laundering it, you know, to North Korea and to things like that, right? So those things are happening and the amounts at issue are, are, you know, billions of dollars. And I think the, the, the criminals and the bad actors see crypto as a way to, you know, get away with something that maybe they, they, it wouldn't be so easy to get away with the, in the normal financial system.

So I like, you know, there needs a balance here. 'cause I think there are a ton of really amazing, um, crypto, uh, inno innovators and entrepreneurs and, and new companies and, and doing amazing stuff. But there, there is this dark side of the industry where people are using it for nefarious purposes and it really is something that, you know, I think if you looked at the, the way the, um, law enforcement community goes after 

Willard Host: things that 

Guest: are stolen.

Um, I think that's really adjacent to the way that brand owners would think about it, because if someone's using your brand to [00:26:00] steal money, like I, we were talking on our panel about someone that is impersonating, um, an executive at a financial institution or a venture fund, and then, and then asking people for, you know, uh, paying millions of dollars into their fund to invest in the, in an asset.

Oh, wow. And then that's coming in in crypto and then going out in crypto, and you never see the money again. Wow. And so those kinds of things are happening for sure all the time. And, and from a brand perspective, you need to think about, well, if someone's using my brand to steal someone's money, yeah. Oh, I see.

The victim there is gonna have this huge negative affiliation with my brand because Yeah. I've let this happen. 

Willard Host: Wow. Let's talk a little bit more like you've, you know, the, the, the techniques and things you were saying and, and, and ways that brands can protect themselves. 

Guest: Yeah. So again, we, we discussed on the panel that, um.

The, the first thing you can do is you can have some sort of monitoring program, right? Just like you would for just ordinary trademark abuse in a, uh, uh, secondary marketplace. Like, you know, if, if someone's, you know, [00:27:00] maybe selling counterfeits of your goods, you would just have a monitoring program and you would, you would track, you know, how often is that happening?

Is it a little problem? Is it a big problem? Are you talking 

Willard Host: software? I'd just have to Monitoring program. 

Guest: Yeah, so I mean, you can have, you can have software there. There's different tools that to track the. Um, the Web3 marketplaces, whether it's for NFTs or stable coins, there's different tools that track social media traffic.

Oh, wow. You know, that would say, Hey, this brand is, is, you know, taking people's money. You can, so you can, you, you, depending on the industry you're in and the type of way consumers interact with their brand, you would set up an appropriate monitoring program that would include these Web3 marketplaces and, and crypto uses that might impact you.

Oh, 

Willard Host: wow. So you wanna 

Guest: make sure that on your menu of monitoring, this is something that you're, you're tracking. Um, and then, you know, on the, on the backend is when, when something happens, it's, it's understanding again, you know, how, how, what's the scale of that harm, [00:28:00] uh, you know, is it something that you care about or not?

Willard Host: Yeah. It's 

Guest: something that's, that's worth investing resources and investigating and, and figuring out, you know, who is a bad actor? What's the goal of getting 'em to stop? Are we trying to shut them down? Are we trying to go after them? Are we, are we just, you know, it's not a big issue for us for whatever reason, but then developing that strategy and then working with, you know, just as a, in the, the financial services arm of crypto when, when there's a major hack and money goes out the back door.

Yeah. Law enforcement and then other private services are able to trace that crypto and understand. You know, based on the on chain activity, who, who, you know, let's try and give attribution to someone who may have stolen that, that crypto. Let's try and figure out if there's, you know, other, um, you know, social media indicators or on chain activity that would give some ability to, to trace it back to its source.

And if that's the case, well now we have more information to do a more complete [00:29:00] investigation. Perhaps pursue legal process, perhaps pursue law enforcement. You know, uh, referral, so whatever that might be. Um, but I think the, the answer is, and we're seeing, you know, when, when people were, um, doing all sorts of criminal activity on the blockchain, uh, or, or laundering money to North Korea, the US government wasn't just standing by and saying, Hey, I guess we gotta let it happen.

They were developing a system of how do we track and trace that and figure out the, the root of the problem and then go after it. So I, I guess that's my message to, to, to brands is. Uh, the answer is like, not, there's nothing to do. The answer is there's incredibly sophisticated tools that, um, you know, private actors.

Um, and one of the investigators I work with was on our panel Oh, wow. And then shared some of their techniques. Oh, wow. And there's, there's ways to pursue, um, bad actors and to stop infringement. And to pursue a legal process just as there would be in a, you know, [00:30:00] ordinary anti-counterfeiting campaign. 

Willard Host: So like the, um, I mean, 'cause I think about the, you know, it's like the Untouchables movie, you know, where Elliot Ness goes in and he thinks it's a, a warehouse full of alcohol and then it's not.

You know, boy am I dating myself with that one great movie. Anyway. Um, Brian de Palmer, check it out. Um, okay, but be, but like in the digital space, um. You know, you're saying there's sort of like, like the ideas are the same, like, like law enforcement can help, but I, like, I wonder, for example, is it the same, you know, in the in, in the non-digital space, there can always be these issues of like, well, how do you chase this person down?

You know, like, we have this pro service a process, you know, how do we, how do we find them? 

Guest: Yeah. It really depends on the sophistication of the bad actor and what kind of attack they've done, and. You know, what kind of breadcrumbs they left behind. Um 

Willard Host: hmm. 

Guest: So, you know, but there, there, you know, I, there there's some really good books about the, um, you know, when, [00:31:00] when, when, uh, Bitcoin was used very widely and there was this dark net marketplace called the Silk Road where people bought illegal drugs on this decentralized marketplace.

Whoa. 

Willard Host: And 

Guest: people thought, well, I'm using Bitcoin, I can never be caught. And what ended up happening is it became. What's what's referred to as the golden era of crypto tracing. 'cause everyone was using Bitcoin and, and the, the thing about Bitcoin is it's always in forever. Immutably is the word I immutable.

The transaction trail is on the blockchain. It's public record. Oh, oh, oh. So if I sent you money and then you sent money to Tracy, that money is always traceable on the blockchain in, at least in Bitcoin. And so, oh wow. The, the reality is, while it might be. And difficult, and there's different tools that you need to use to uncover this activity.

The reality is, unlike Cache or some other, you know, system, oh, there's, there's always a, a right, a, a trail in that trail that trails in software. And [00:32:00] so if you have the right tools, you can often, you know, de decode that. 

Willard Host: I mean, is there any like, you know, Web3, um, like, you know, I, I, I get that like the criminal element, but is there like in, in the real life thing of like, you know.

The knockoffs or the, you know, where they're like, ah, I'm just, I'm trying to make a buck, you know, I'm selling, I'm Chinatown. I'm just trying to, you know, nobody cares if it's a, a real Prada bag. You know? I mean, is there that sort of like, le well that's not a great example 'cause that is criminal. So, but is there the non-criminal, you know, uh.

Trademark infringement, that kind of stuff. And Web3, is it, is it really heavily tied to blockchain and crypto, or is there sort of, I wanna say your, your garden variety, you know? Well, I think, I think 

Guest: the Prada bag example is the perfect one because, um, air MAs has the Birkin bag. Yeah. And some artists sold Meta Birkins, which was an NFT Yeah.

That he just created on his own. Yeah. And he made a bunch of money and he registered a Web3 domain name with the meta Burkins name in it. And Hermas [00:33:00] went after him and. And ultimately won a jury trial finding infringement and got the NFT project shut down. And I think that's a perfect example of a brand saying, Hey, we might want to do NFT stuff, we might wanna do crypto stuff.

We, we, but, but you are using our Burke and Mark right in an infringing way. And even if it's on the blockchain, we're going to stop you and we're gonna tell you to knock it off. Um, and so I think that's, so to speak. It's, it's, uh, well, yeah, so to speak, but per a perfect example of like garden variety, I think IP enforcement of, we have a famous mark.

You're using it in a way that we don't like when we're going to take enforcement action against you. 

Willard Host: I mean, it's kind of hilarious in a way because the night, you know, the, like, it's sort of like the, the, you know, nobody on the internet knows your dog. It's like, no, you, you, thank you, thank you for, for laughing at that.

But, you know, um. Like this, the meta burken, like you've left this trail, you know, like in the old days [00:34:00] before the internet, you know, nobody knew the dollars were changing hands or whatever. Right. Or, or, um, like there was no such thing as an NFT, but so the creator of that left a, a, a traceable, almost like, 

Guest: I don't think he was trying to not be found.

I think this was a public artistic display. Oh, okay. His defense was actually, I'm an artist and I'm entitled to do this because it's art. And it's not, oh, it's not infringement, it's, it's, it's art. 

Willard Host: Should I do some lightning round? Alright, so let's do some fun. Quick que Well, they won't be fun, but I, I, I came up with 'em.

I thought they were fun. So I, so your bio, which is, I like, that's one of the most interesting, like, firm bios I've ever seen. I mean, most of them are like, and then you appear to the second circuit and blood, you're like, oh, you know, so you play saxophone. Yes. Um, so the question is. Who is your favorite saxophonist?

Uh, with us? No, you know, passed on to the great beyond. Uh, who, who is it and who would you say and [00:35:00] why? 

Guest: I would say Sonny Rollins, uh, who's someone, one I love is music. I love, uh, his compositions and the, the head, like, you know, the head, the, the melodies he created. And I played, and I grew up learning to play those songs.

Oh, wow. And I've seen him live multiple times. Oh, wow. 

Willard Host: Wow. Ooh, cool. So he, 

Guest: he's, he's a man, I mean, he's very old now. Um, I think he's in his nineties. Um, and, uh, you know, he, he also played with some of the greatest, he played with, um, Herbie Hancock, who's another one of my favorites. Yeah, 

Willard Host: yeah, yeah, yeah. And so 

Guest: it's also, it's like, you know, not just who is the best.

You know, whatever the best means, but also like who do they play with and at what time and in what era and what are they doing now? And so I love jazz. 

Willard Host: Oh wow. Wow, wow. Cool. Alright, so here's an, oh yeah. Oh yeah. This, this. I thought this was pretty good. We'll see what happens. Um. So you, your, your bio also said you, you collect NFTs.

Yes. So my question is, since you're in New York, where, where do you, I mean, do you have space for it? And if you do, where are you, where are you keeping it? Not withstanding all your explanations [00:36:00] before, but where, where are you keeping it? Do the kids have access to it? Do you have to, do you have to keep it out of them?

I'm like, get your hands off that NFT, you know. Well, so 

Guest: it's 

Willard Host: a great, it's a great thing 

Guest: because I, um, when I, you know, as a kid, I collected baseball cards and I have these and basketball cards. I have these binders of cards that. I forced my parents to hang onto me for now decades. And, uh, you know, in, in my, in my younger days, I would go to rock shows and collect concert posters.

Yeah. 

Willard Host: Wow. 

Guest: And I collect these and have 'em on my wall, and my wife gets mad like, you're accumulating all this junk, where are you gonna put it? And that's the great thing about NFTs. You don't, you can storm in a digital wall. You don't need to have them on the walls. They don't need to take up space. So, um, you know, I, I, I think, um.

They're, they're, they're on a wallet. Uh, and, and wow, you know, I'm not gonna get into, you know, my operational security, but, but, um, it's, it's, I think very important. I think that the, the cool thing about, you know, working in this industry, um, and, and you know, is using the technology and I really believe in the technology.

And as much as we talked about all these nefarious actors, I think [00:37:00] some of the, the really cool things that are happening, the only way to really understand is to participate. Is to collect, is to explore, is to, um, you know, experiment. And especially with NFTs. In order to do that, you need to be in that, in those markets and collecting and finding things that, that spark joy in you and, and interacting with those communities.

Willard Host: I think that's a great point, Moish. 'cause you know, you're a lawyer and I am too. And so, you know, you're, you look at it from this perspective of risk and all that stuff, but it's, I think it's important to say like there is actually a very positive, you know. To all of this. It's not all like bad actors doing bad things.

Like there's some actually really exciting innovation. So last one is Zabars or Eli's. 

Guest: Oh, I think you gotta go with the OGs. Zabars. I used to live on the Upper West Side, so yes, I, I have good memories walking over there. Yeah. 

Willard Host: Well, you can't see it 'cause I, this is blocking me, but there's a lot of Z bars here.

I, I travel with it. It comes from wherever I go. Well, listen, Morris, [00:38:00] thank you so much. Thank you Willer, for having me on the, the podcast. Great. You're welcome. And thank you.