In the Loupe
In the Loupe
Building a Lasting Brand ft. Constance Polamalu from Birthright Foundry
Mike sits down with Constance Polamalu , the founder of Birthright Foundry to talk about the latest updates to her jewelry line since they last spoke during S4 E34. Constance discusses her journey this past year, highlighting the meticulous selection of her pieces that were featured on the Golden Bachelorette and the importance of creating a brand that stands the test of time.
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Welcome back everybody to In the Loop design Birthright Foundry. She was in year two back then and I wanted to catch up with her to hear about how the last year was, and it was a really inspiring talk. It's one of my favorite I've done this season because it's all about how it's not always rocket ship growth. Sometimes things slow just a little bit, and especially when it comes to design and jewelry design in general, you need to have time to actually create more amazing pieces, and she talks about how she stays motivated and keeps pushing forward. But also recently she had three of her pieces featured on this reality TV show, the Golden Bachelorette, and she talks about how that came about and how she chose the pieces for it. It's a really cool conversation. And then she teases a couple of the projects that she's working on in the near future. It's a really good conversation. I hope you enjoy.
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Speaker 1:And now back to the show. Welcome back everybody. I'm joined by Constance Palamalu, who is with Zachary's Jewelry, but we also spoke with her last time on season four, episode 34, about her new jewelry line, Birthright Foundry. How are you doing today, Constance?
Speaker 3:I'm doing great. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm doing so. Well, we were just talking a little bit before we got on the recording and you were talking about some of the developments since we last spoke. You had recently launched your jewelry line, the first time we had spoken, and you talked about kind of all the work that went into starting your own jewelry line. It was very inspiring. How has it been in the last year since then?
Speaker 3:It's been amazing. In some ways it feels like it's been a little bit of a slower year, been a little bit lower key, just trying to really connect the dots and make sure that we're setting up to be a brand that people know in a hundred years from now.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's crazy. So you're seeing it as like this is not like a temporary thing, or I guess fast fashion is like one of those buzzwords that people are thinking about all the time. You want your pieces to be around. You know, whatever the next generation of jewelry styles are going to be, you want it to be more timeless, I guess.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely so, like I was in New York earlier this year walking through the Tiffany building, you know, and just seeing all of their history. And listen, everybody dreams of being Tiffany or Cartier one day. It may or may not happen right For anybody, but I do want to make sure that I'm building a brand that is a legacy that my children's children and their children can look to and celebrate and feel really proud of. And knowing that that's the vision, like having that long game makes some of the moments that are a little bit quieter feel purposeful and you know it, it reminds you to to stay intentional and to really make decisions that make sense for a hundred years from now. Um and so that's. You know. There there are plenty of opportunities that I've actually passed on in the last year just because they didn't fit what I envisioned for the brand in 100 years.
Speaker 1:Interesting. So when we had first talked I think that you're in your I think last year. I guess you're in your third year now. So I think that last year was your second year. Is that correct?
Speaker 3:Yeah, correct yeah.
Speaker 1:So you had just been named to the 20 under 40s list and it seemed like, you know, the rocket ship was just straight to the moon and I don't want to say like it's plateauing, but sometimes the growth isn't, as you know, insane on one of the years, because it's sometimes very difficult to keep that up. Is that like? What is that mental battle? Like to be able to keep your eyes on the prize, like you're saying, for the next hundred years?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I have an orchid plant. Have you ever had? I see you have plants in your space.
Speaker 1:Do you ever have an?
Speaker 3:orchid.
Speaker 1:My mom is very fond of them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so an orchid is going to have this really beautiful blooming season and then just when you think it's dead, like really dead, it starts a whole new phase. And not everybody understands that, but if you can grasp that and you can really model yourself after that it almost doesn't matter that everybody else thinks you're dead, because you know that your little cells are still swimming and they're still pulling nutrients and you're still working up for your next huge blossom. And so there are lots of things that are in the works, that are coming, that I know are coming and you know it may or may not be apparent to everybody else. You know what those things are going to be and only time will will reveal that.
Speaker 1:What a lovely comparison. It's funny. My, my mom has like a real affinity for orchids, which she's the only person I've ever met that has that. And yeah, they'll bloom, and she puts them upstairs and everyone marvels at them and then the blossoms drop and she puts them. She puts them in the dungeon, it's in like the basement. There's you know light but no one really looks at them. And then you know, a couple months later, 10 months later, they blossom again and she brings them back up and suddenly everyone's like wow, you always have the best orchids. And it's like only some of the time but.
Speaker 3:Right, yeah, yeah, and, and, and. In the grand scheme of things, nobody else remembers that she was hiding her orchids in the basement. What?
Speaker 1:a great way to think about it. So talk to me a little bit about, as a jewelry designer, what. What is that kind of interior period like while you're getting these blossoms ready to bloom? Is it a lot of like designing additional lines of jewelry or additional pieces to kind of fill out the collection, or what does that end up actually being like for a jewelry designer?
Speaker 3:So it's probably very different for other designers, because I wear so many hats and design is not my like. I don't wake up every day and say, okay, today I have to design five pieces of jewelry, like some who. That's what they do, you know. For me, because I'm also running, you know, a brick and mortar that carries other designers, when I'm not designing, I'm appreciating what others have done. I'm looking at the mechanics of how something moves and kind of assessing oh wow, I didn't realize this cuff moved this way.
Speaker 3:And really, for me, designing Birthright Foundry is always a point of recognizing what others have done and what's already available and then finding things that I feel like aren't available or that just aren't made. That's really close to that sketch. I'm going like, okay, all right, well, is this different enough for me to actually produce it, or does this other designer already have it covered? And so there's a lot of that, a lot of editing, a lot of reviewing what others are doing and kind of reviewing what I've thought of and just really trying to determine is it good enough for me to produce this?
Speaker 1:What is your design kind of ideation medium? Are you doing things in like pencil and paper? Are you doing things in like either sketch or things like that? What do you choose?
Speaker 3:I like pencil and paper just because it's easy and there's kind of always something accessible. I also have because of my background. I used to spend a lot of time in Chinese factories working with designers there. So I have a pretty good understanding when I'm sketching and drawing, of how I want something to move or function three-dimensionally. So in my mind oftentimes when I'm sketching I'm visualizing what others would see in a rendering. So I'm kind of moving it around in my mind and saying, okay, well, from the backside I want it to look like this, and as you rotate it I maybe want this portion to taper. So I really sketching is just a way to kind of get it out on paper and think about it again and kind of circle back to it. But mentally I'm kind of always looking at it as if I were looking at a rendering.
Speaker 1:That's a really interesting kind of perspective on things, because some people I've learned are not like that.
Speaker 1:I didn't realize that I went to school for design as well. And hearing that some people don't have that ability to kind of picture, or is it aphantasia or something like that, where people aren't able to imagine certain things, like if you were to say, oh, there's an apple on top of a coffee cup, they actually aren't able to create that in their mind and I've always kind of leaned on it. But hearing, for example, I spoke with Sarah Schoenlink from she's actually a designer for Tiffany Co, I actually spoke with her last season and hearing how she talks about like starting with gouache and with colored pencils and things like that, and then she goes and moves on to designing in the round, and that's where a lot of the editing process comes in. Is you, everything looks great on paper and then when you actually start to generate it and have it become a thing is where sometimes you have to have the being able to pull it back into reality, is where she does it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm really amazed by people who design that way, cause I think it's such a beautiful process for me, like I can see it in my mind, and then everything after that is just a means to communicate with the other artisans who are going to touch the piece before it's finished. So it's. It is interesting that and I I almost envy other designers sometimes when they design that way, like from the, from the paint and and, because I think there's a certain freedom in that. Like, if I can't visualize how something works structurally, I really I don't know what to do. I kind of get lost. So I have to know how it's going to move before I put it to paper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I remember when we first talked you had one specific piece that was a real showstopper and that you were able to sell, and it sold for well over six figures and it was kind of like your flag in the ground, like this is what Birthright Foundry is like. I always wonder. As a, you know, as a designer, as a watercolor artist myself, there's sometimes this temptation to create like the showstopper, like the real conversation piece, but then that's not really what makes the bread a lot of the time.
Speaker 1:It's actually the run of the mill for me, the eight by 10 of watercolor paintings, whereas as much as I love making a two foot by two and a half foot, that takes a month to make. It's actually the run of the mill ones. How do you balance that as a as a as a jewelry designer?
Speaker 3:That's good. That's a really good question. That, honestly, is, I think, sometimes what helps slow and steady me as a designer in business, right Like, and I'm blessed because it's very expensive to make a showstopper and so the financial commitment required to make those showstoppers is really helpful when you know that you need to do some editing, because you know, I think if money were no option, I would be in a very different predicament. For sure I might have a whole store full of really amazing showstoppers that nobody wants to buy. I'm with you. So I think I count that as a blessing, though in that it really helps ground the editing process.
Speaker 3:So there is joy for me in those smaller pieces. Like, for me the best sellers are my Nefo pendants, and I do those in Engravable. I do them in an open Nefo in gold and platinum. I do different colorways for people, so they've just got a little pavé border and then we engrave, and sometimes we do a hand engraving of people's names, sometimes we do a pattern, but being able to personalize those and see how people wear them, it feels connective. And so that bread and butter piece while to some it might feel like it would get boring, for me it feels like all of these people are now intricately woven together in this beautiful tapestry that will one day be revealed from a long distance away, in a hundred years.
Speaker 1:I sometimes find it funny to. I have looked back on my own painting process pretty recently where I was looking and I was like, oh my gosh, some of my work is way not up to the standard of today's work and I sometimes have to wonder like, oh, should I? Am I embarrassed about these pieces? And the answer is not. Answer is not true. I'm not embarrassed about my earlier work, but it is not what I am creating today. My process and my style has changed. I'm assuming that the same is true for you. Are you ever having to balance what you can show? For example, you're now having Birthright Foundry for three years. Do you have to sometimes pull back pieces from year one and only show pieces that are very recent? Or is it like you know what with jewelry, it's timeless. I want everything to be timeless. I'm going to continue showing everything from all of the years that we've been in business.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think it's still early for Birthright Foundry to be retiring pieces, and part of that, I think, is that, you know, I'm a somewhat of a serial entrepreneur, in that Birthright Foundry is not my first go at having a brand. Those other brands from my earlier career, absolutely I don't want those shown Like those things. I'm like, yeah, that's just, that's just not me.
Speaker 3:And there was a reason, you know, and a lot of those brands and designs that I made before I really found my voice in Birthright Foundry, they just they aren't special because they weren't coming from me. They were an attempt to imitate someone else or to kind of revamp what someone else was doing. And, you know, also because those brands were things that I was building specifically to sell. So I was. You know when, when you're doing that, it's really easy to chase down and say, okay, well, this designer is really successful and makes a ton of jewelry with evil eyes, so if I can make a cool evil eye, then I can maybe have a piece of that pie. It's like a, it's a cool phantom to chase, but it's not sustainable. And I think then what you put yourself in the position for is is price comparisons and it's commerce so yeah, yeah, and birthright foundry has never been that.
Speaker 3:Birthright foundry has always been my soul, cemented in golden diamonds, and that doesn't feel like it's worth retiring. You know, like I'm not I'm not dead yet and I am still that person because it's the most authentic design work I've ever done, and that's probably how your paintings are, in that your paintings have, have always been from you, and so that part of you is is not worth being ashamed of, because you were always that person, and so I feel more that way with Birthright Foundry than anything else I've ever designed.
Speaker 1:That's a really nice way to think about it. It's I'm not I would never say I'm ashamed of anything I've ever made. Sometimes it's more like, sometimes, in the end, we are kind of trying to show like our, our, our best face as much as possible and sometimes I wonder, it's like you know, oh, maybe that's just just an old version of me, but I think you're totally right. When it comes, when it's genuine and it's true and it comes from from the heart, I really think that it's never. It never really kind of goes out of style. There's some things that I'm more proud of because maybe they're more recent or they're more technically sound, like you've mentioned, but I think that in the end it takes like a little bit more of yeah, like you know what I made, that it came from my hands and I'm still proud of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Constance, we're going to take a quick break and then when we come back, I want to hear about your jewelry being featured on the golden bachelorette. So everybody, stay with us. Punchmark is so excited to announce the launch of our email marketing campaigns crafted specifically for jewelers. Take your jewelry stores marketing to the next level with punchmarks email marketing service. We created tailored, data-driven campaigns that will not only engage your customers, but also boost your sales. Whether you want to be hands-on or prefer a fully managed service, we deliver everything you need to stay connected to your audience and increase your ROI. Let's grow your business through the power of strategic email marketing. Learn more at punchmarkcom slash email dash marketing. Again, that's punchmarkcom slash email dash marketing. And now back to the show. All right, everybody Still speaking with Constance Polamalu from Birthright Foundry and Constance you had talked about. You had three pieces in a recent TV show, the Golden Bachelorette. Can you talk to me first of all, what is that show about and how did that come about?
Speaker 3:So I'm one that likes to always say yes to opportunities um as much as so long as they make sense and they don't feel like a total departure. Uh, so the golden bachelorette is Joan Vasos, and Joan has been a longtime customer at Zachary's Jewelers well before she became the golden bachelorette. Now, the golden bachelorette is, for those who don't know, just like the bachelorette. So Bachelor Nation, right. I have no idea how many seasons there have been at this point or how many bachelors and bachelorettes.
Speaker 1:Wildly popular yep.
Speaker 3:Right, but Joan is the first golden bachelorette and what that is is they brought in women for the first golden bachelor that were in their sixties, fifties, sixties, seventies, so it's almost like a second chance at love show. And you know so there were a lot of widows. Joan is a widow. We were her jeweler all throughout her first marriage and you know, we know her family very well. So we've just been watching and falling in love with this idea of her finding love again and being happy again, because she so deserves it.
Speaker 3:And I think the thing is is that it really resonates with a lot of people.
Speaker 3:You know there are a lot of people who maybe need a second chance at love or want to feel seen, you know, want to feel like they're still in it, like they've still got game.
Speaker 3:You know, like there's so many reasons why she just resonates with people and she's such a warm and genuine person that you know, when she was on the Golden Bachelor, we all knew like obviously nobody really knew, knew, but we just knew she had to be the first golden bachelorette, like she had to have her own show because she's just a magical person. Um, so when the news broke that she was officially going to be the golden bachelorette. I had reached out and I said you know I am so happy for you, I'm so excited to watch this and you know we're all rooting for you. I'm so excited to watch this and you know we're all rooting for you. Can I send you some jewelry to wear? And she was like wow, what a dream come true, which you know. First of all, a lot of times you try to reach out to celebrities or stylists and they're just kind of like yeah, yeah, okay cool.
Speaker 3:But she's just so genuine and she was like, wow, what a dream come true. Let me connect you with the show's stylist. And it turns out. It's actually really easy to get jewelry on a lot of reality shows, and particularly the Bachelor, If you are a member of Jewelers of America, which I know you've spoken with Amanda before. If you're a member of Jewelers of America, they actually put out a call and they help jewelers collect. You know, designers send items to the bachelor and to the stylist for the bachelor, which is Carrie Fentman, who's a lovely human as well. And, yeah, so that's that's kind of how it worked for us. This one was really organic. It was just somebody that we knew who was succeeding and going on to do something really exciting. And so, yeah, she's actually going to be wearing more than three pieces on three different episodes. Wow. So we're super excited to see that and I'm doing a watch party here in the store just with some women oh, that's so cool.
Speaker 3:We're playing like March Madness with the different bachelors. Of course it seems appropriate or perfectly inappropriate, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Man, it's so interesting. It's like you were explaining and then it just took a left turn. I had no idea that it was going to be yeah for people with their second chance at love and that they tend to be older in different parts of their life. That's like a lot more wholesome than I was expecting. I saw the word bachelorette in there and I was like, oh, maybe, it's like you know, tend to be older in different parts of their life. That's like a lot more wholesome than I was expecting. I saw the word bachelorette in there and I was like, oh, maybe it's like you know, what do you expect out of the bachelorette? So, when it comes to, when it comes to this kind of stuff, do you? Um, how does the marketing for a jewelry brand kind of work around that? So, is it like up to you to be like hey, we're on this show, check it out. This is it. Here's a screenshot of it being worn on the show. Or do they provide you any stills or anything like that, or what is that kind of process?
Speaker 3:It's totally what you make of it.
Speaker 3:It's totally what you make of it. Just like what I believe to be true about most things in life it's absolutely what you make of it. You can get a great break, but you've got to put the work into letting people know and then having the products available to see and to shop and, you know, just continuing that PR machine. So, just like with, you know, the Met Gala when Lizzo wore my earrings to the Met Gala, it was amazing and a huge opportunity and it got me a ton of street cred.
Speaker 3:But that was because we had a PR team that went out there and sent pictures. You know we bought the images from Getty Images and we put the. You know we sent all the images that we paid for and the you know pictures of the earrings and all of the things to every person in news, in local news that we knew and then relied on our network elsewhere, you know, in the industry as well, to help push that. And so it's always going to be what you make of it. And that's where things like having strong relationships in the industry, outside the industry, and then always, always, always participating in trade organizations Like I love Jewelers of America. I sit on the board there and they're just always willing to jump in and help anybody who's trying to do something to further the industry at large.
Speaker 1:Wow, really cool. I love that kind of stuff because, yeah, I had mentioned earlier that in a different part of my life I had run an apparel business and one of the things that we were constantly I was constantly approached about is like, oh, can you sponsor? Or the term we use was flow, can you flow me a rash guard, which is basically give me something free and I'll wear it in a big competition and, you know, maybe it'll drive some traffic. And it was so hit or miss because on the one hand, you know you're losing whatever you paid for this piece and hopefully you make one sale back from it, and it was so hard to drive a one-to-one value behind it. I'm assuming. I don't know if this is too personal, but do you gift them to the person or is it on essentially consignment or is it like a loaning kind of thing?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So in jewelry you cannot I mean, some people can but thankfully in fine jewelry you have to be clear of who you're working with, because I've heard some horror stories. But it is a memo program, so you loan the pieces to somebody. Um, general best practices, you should always have like a sheet, just like if you were sending memo to a retailer. You send a sheet that's got the memo, the values, and you should always get proof of the stylist's insurance or celebrity's insurance, just depending on who's going to be wearing something. So for this, jewelers of America has, I believe, had some insurance and the show has some insurance and it's really well oiled.
Speaker 1:That's a lot more formal than I had thought I didn't. I didn't know that there was that like kind of background to it. That's really cool, yes.
Speaker 3:Yes, and so that's something that I w. I was really fortunate to learn through the natural diamond council when, um, when I was in the emerging designers diamond initiative while with Lorraine Schwartz and the Natural Diamond Council, they taught me a lot of best practices. Like the first time I took a piece to. I was really thankful because I got a call to take a piece to Esquire magazine and I was just like amazing, a real magazine wants to shoot one of my pieces. So I just ran it over and dropped it off Like no paperwork, no, like requests to see anything, and the PR team at Natural Diamond Counseling was like hey, constance.
Speaker 1:Don't ever do that again.
Speaker 3:We've got you covered here because we happen to know them and we knew that that was happening for you. But in the future you really need to send like paperwork.
Speaker 3:Wow, that's so funny and like you should vet them. And so then you know, from that relationship and then also again with the Jewelers of America PR team, when I get requests, I have people that I can kind of push things over to and say, hey, do you actually know this stylist? Does this stylist have a good reputation? Is there any red flags here? Or do you think I'm good to just send some product and that's been hugely helpful in not losing anything?
Speaker 1:Do you have like any, uh, any dream shows that you want to get on? Um, I mean, sounds like reality TV, might be like a great, great, uh, vertical for you, but, um, do you have one that you've always wanted to? That you know you, you've made it, if you get there.
Speaker 3:Um two. So there's a reboot of the Devil Wears Prada.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, nice.
Speaker 3:If I could see Meryl Streep in a piece of Birthright Foundry, wow, I would lose my mind because she's amazing. And then Emily in Paris because I literally watched that show to shop and I don't put any of my outfits together the way that they do, but I'll be like, ooh, what are those boots I need to, like go and find.
Speaker 1:I need, I need those boots. I mean that's. That's an example right there. It shows that it actually works. If, if you're doing it, I'm sure that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people that are doing the exact same thing looking, seeing inspiration or just liking products in general and then deciding, hey, this is like something I'm going to purchase. I'm sure it has. I mean, there's a reason why there's product placement, but I guess it's kind of one of those things. It's also at the same time, uh, I was thinking about like there are some kind of product placements that you wouldn't necessarily desire and like the only one I could come up with, for example, was like um, I had heard that in Jersey shore, they I think it was like LVMH was like sending them Gucci clothing so that they would wear Gucci and cast it in a less than desirable light.
Speaker 3:Which is my absolute favorite guerrilla marketing that.
Speaker 1:I've ever heard of, so it's just kind of interesting. You can't just say yes to everything, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I like to say yes, but, and the only reason so far that I've said no to things are safety. So there've been a couple of things that I just wasn't sure. I didn't feel really comfortable with knowing that I wasn't like I wasn't a hundred percent sure I was going to get my product back Wow, um, because I'm just not in a position to lose anything, and they weren't like biggie enough opportunities to take the risk. Yeah, um, so that's that's the biggest reason that I've said no to things. Um, but yeah, I'm sure there is something that I would be like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:I can only imagine.
Speaker 3:But yeah, just in case somebody doesn't like me, I can't. I can't divulge who that would be, because I don't need, like some other LVMH, to start vending my product.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're gonna be wrapping up here in just a second, but I kind of wanted to hear about are there any new designs that you're working on, or are there any designers that you're inspired by? You had mentioned Tiffany Co and Cartier and people like you know, the major boutique stores. What are you guys at Birthright Foundry? What are you working on right now?
Speaker 3:So I've been really musing on Victorian era imagery of the South Pacific and I think part of that is because, you know, there was a. There was a point in time where people were asking you know well, is this jewelry for everyone, or is it only for people of Samoan ancestry, because it's so heavily rooted in my family's legacy? And I say no, of course, I want everybody to wear it, because the more people who wear it, the more of the story gets told, and the more the story gets told, you know, kind of that first introduction of the South Pacific to the Western world. It's also it makes me feel like there's another place in history where I already belong, and you know how can I transition that and really make something unexpected? So I had, recently, I made some beautiful amethyst heart earrings and pendants that were for they were commissioned for a very specific client and it ended up being perfect because it matched both her.
Speaker 3:You know her nickname is Queenie, we, we, everybody calls her Queenie. So you know she's, and she's a very princessy woman. She's, you know, super glamorous, but she tends to gravitate towards designs that have a little bit more frill to them than Birthright Foundry typically does, and so I was able to really experiment with. Okay, how can I take Birthright Foundry and zoom in on the girlier side of my person my own person and some of the other women who love and support? What I'm doing and that's the direction that we're going in right now is to kind of play with some of the more feminine parts that that I didn't incorporate in the early days.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's so inspiring.
Speaker 1:Especially, I really like how you came to that solution.
Speaker 1:It's not like, oh, I found this design that looks cool and I just decided, but, starting from a more grounded in historical aspect, it feels like if you continue with that, there's, you know, infinite avenues and possibilities that you could, you know, riff and go off of in the future. I think that that's one of the things that they taught us in design school was a lot of. You can find the best inspiration for designs by looking at historical designs as well, and it's not stealing, it's just being inspired, and I find that that's one of those things, especially when you go from cross mediums so like looking at clothing and just like fabric designs and things like that from an era that is rather historical and then going and turning it into a, you know, metal and stones is, I think, a really interesting kind of twist that allows you to, yeah, put your own spin on it. That sounds awesome. I can't wait to see. Thank you, yeah, now, constance, I think we'll wrap it up right there. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about Birthright Foundry?
Speaker 3:You can find me on Instagram at birthright underscore foundry. The easier handle that links to everything I do is Constance the jeweler spelled exactly how you would expect Constance to be spelled no spaces, no dashes, nothing fancy, just Constance the jeweler on Instagram and TikTok, and that's probably the easiest way to get all the links to everything else I do Awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much. Maybe we'll do this as a recurring thing. I can hear how you guys are doing next year. I think that I'm really inspired and can't wait to follow up on how birthright foundry is doing everybody. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back next week, tuesday, with another episode. Cheers Bye. All right, everybody. That's the end of the show. Thanks so much for listening. My guest this week was Constance Palamalu, with Birthright Foundry, and you can learn more about her on the links provided at the end of the episode. This episode was brought to you by Punchmark and produced and hosted by me, michael Burfo. This episode was edited by Paul Suarez with music by Ross Cockrum. Don't forget to rate the podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and leave us feedback on punchmarkcom slash loop. That's L-O-U-P-E. Thanks. We'll be back next week, tuesday, with another episode. Cheers Bye.
