In the Loupe
In the Loupe
The Jeweler's Ace Up Their Sleeve ft. Jewel-Craft
Meet the unsung heroes of the jewelry world as Mike speaks with Stefanie Wesdorp from Jewel-Craft, a fourth-generation family business that handles service requests for hundreds of retail jewelers around the US.
Stefanie shares how Jewel-Craft has carved out a role as the hidden powerhouse behind so many jewelry stores. Tackling everything from intricate repairs to challenging customizations, Jewel-Craft manages to stay organized while handling hundreds of requests a day.
Learn more about Jewel-Craft: jewel-craft.com
Send feedback or learn more about the podcast: punchmark.com/loupe
Learn about Punchmark's website platform: punchmark.com
Inquire about sponsoring In the Loupe and showcase your business on our next episode: podcast@punchmark.com
Welcome to In the Loop, the man behind the curtain for a lot of jewelry stores. They handle repairs and special projects and re-tippings and all sorts of things like that, and they are kind of the secret sauce for a lot of jewelry stores being able to handle what their customers need. Sometimes they don't even get the credit that they deserve, especially because they are a B2B company instead of a customer-facing company, but that doesn't make their job any less important. It actually makes it even more important. So I sat down and talked with Stephanie all about what they see when they get projects in the most common projects, their least favorite projects, how they handle luxury brands that come in, and if there's a special way to handle those, and also what's on the cusp for 2025. Really cool talk. I think that she is a fantastic leader, a fourth generation business leader, and I think that she has a lot to share. So please enjoy.
Speaker 2:This episode is brought to you by Punchmark, the jewelry industry's favorite website platform and digital growth agency. Our mission reaches way beyond technology. With decades of experience and long-lasting industry relationships, punchmark enables jewelry businesses to flourish in any marketplace. We consider our clients our friends, as many of them have been friends way before becoming clients. Punchmark's own success comes from the fact that we have a much deeper need and obligation to help our friends succeed. Whether you're looking for better e-commerce performance, business growth or campaigns that drive traffic and sales, punchmark's website and marketing services were made just for you. It's never too late to transform your business and stitch together your digital and physical worlds in a way that achieves tremendous growth and results. Schedule a guided demo today at punchmarkcom slash go. And now back to the show.
Speaker 1:Welcome back everybody. I'm joined by Stephanie Westdorp from Jewelcraft. How are you doing today, stephanie?
Speaker 3:Hey, I'm good. Mike, how are you?
Speaker 1:Doing all right. I was trying to explain to my parents who I was interviewing and I was like, oh yeah, jewelcraft are kind of like the man behind the curtain for a lot of jewelry stores. Is that kind of a fair assessment, you know the kind of the people who are getting some of these jobs done behind the scenes. Is that sort of like a fair kind of summation?
Speaker 3:Definitely we. We are the jeweler's jeweler. A lot of people don't know that we're here, but that's exactly what we do. We're here to have the retailers back and make sure that they've got everything that they need for all of their repairs or any custom that they've got everything that they need for all of their repairs or any custom.
Speaker 1:Nice, yeah, because I guess my parents have always. I'm sort of explaining things throughout the years to them like hey, did you know that not every jewelry store does the custom jewelry in-house? Sometimes they're like outsourcing it, they work with professionals that do it for them, or same thing with repair jobs, and they're like no, I thought that they would do it in-house. And it's like some do, but also some people just don't have the staff or the technology or the materials, or just even like they don't care to. What is the? Can you take me back and explain to me kind of the origin story? And like how is it Earl, earl Westdorp that must be your father grandfather started?
Speaker 3:Jewelcraft, great grandfather, great grandfather.
Speaker 1:Very cool.
Speaker 3:Yes, so I am fourth generation at Jewelcraft. My grandfather and grandmother did a lot of the business and really created a lot of the growth, and then my dad and my uncle. We've been in business since 1947. So me and my brothers and I have three cousins now. We're all here all day, every day, and again kind of behind the scenes and making sure that everything's getting taken care of.
Speaker 1:That's really neat. So, man, so you said 1945, did you say 1947.
Speaker 3:So we're going into our 78th year.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. So jewelry's progressed kind of a lot since then. There's new styles, even metals are just a little bit different than what they've been using back then, but in the same way things are relatively similar. What has changed since Earl started it versus what Jewelcraft is today?
Speaker 3:Oh, my goodness, I don't even know where to start. I mean, I would say the technology. I mean from a simple microscope to you know, all of the CAD programs, diamond testers, so there's so much.
Speaker 1:But at the end of the day a repair is a repair and that process really hasn't changed Increasingly. It's more like fix this. In this way there's a lot more kind of direction, it seems like. At least that's what I gathered from your presentation at the Punchmark Client Workshop this past year.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely, and whether you use a torch or you use a laser for the repair, and then just making sure that all of what needs to be taken care of is taken care of, that maybe something comes in for a sizing, but maybe it needs more than that and we want to make sure that we cover the basis and get it all taken care of.
Speaker 1:So I can only imagine, though, you are sometimes dealing with other custom jewelers work, and you're probably also dealing with vendors. Is it work, and you're probably also dealing with vendors. Do you ever get like rings or jewelry that's been done by a custom jeweler and you're like man, this thing was four seconds away from losing this center stone, or like the work on this is really poor? Or I guess, on the flip side, do you ever look at it? It's like, wow, this person is really impressive, for whatever reason, is really impressive for whatever reason, both of those things.
Speaker 3:But nine times out of 10, the jeweler will call us and say, hey, this job was a little bit out of my scope. I probably shouldn't have attempted to do it. I'm going to mark this to your attention. Can you get it fixed up and taken care of for me? So I have the benefit of getting to work directly with the jeweler on the other side of the retail counter, and they will be very honest and tell us hey, yeah, I botched this one or this ring has been very well loved by a customer, which is a nice way of saying be up, yeah, it's, it might be it might be time for a new mounting. So it's really nice to be able to have those very honest conversations, whereas the retailer has to be really soft and careful about what they are saying to the end consumer. So I do have it's a major advantage to get to work directly with the retailer and have those very honest conversations.
Speaker 1:I guess it is one of those benefits of B2B versus B2C, in that B2C, like you said, you do kind of have to I don't want to say obfuscate, but you have to have like a gentler touch. It's like oh yeah, this thing definitely needs like a little looking at, but we'll get it fixed up. And then when it's B2B, it's like suddenly all the niceties go away. It's like this shank is totally messed up. If you don't fix it, like I don't know what they were thinking. That kind of stuff we've started to kind of it comes to my attention every now and then where it's like oh, we really are dealing with customers in a different way because we're dealing with businesses.
Speaker 3:And you guys probably have a similar type of relationship with your own customers too, absolutely, absolutely. And our customers, I mean I'm so lucky I get to do all of the trade shows, travel a lot, so that FaceTime and building those relationships is everything in this business and really important to me. My primary focus at Jewelcraft is a lot of retention and sales and just getting to know who they are and what their needs are so that I know how they fit into the shop and I make friends with most of them.
Speaker 1:Do you work? Does Jewelcraft typically work on a retainer with a client, or do they work on a per job basis? Or how big the job is, or what does that look like for the billing?
Speaker 3:So you know, our minimum is one we're here to do what they don't want to do, don't have time to do or maybe don't have the equipment to do. We fix a lot of hollow rope change simply because the in-house jeweler is like oh yeah, that's going to Jewelcraft, send that to Jewelcraft. It just kind of gets, you know, lets them get that stuff out of their pan and focus on the stuff that they're really good at or really enjoy doing. A lot of times the bench jeweler is the owner who really needs to be out on the sales floor, you know meeting the customers and they get stuck at the bench and it's like no, get out there and sell that diamond, let us take care of that. $9 repair.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's one thing I've always learned.
Speaker 1:Work smarter, not harder, right? Exactly, hey, respect, I mean someone. Everyone's got to eat. So the fact that there's like a, not a spinoff business but a, you know, a part of the business that can handle those things and that is what your specialty is, that sounds amazing. But what type of stores are you typically servicing? You mentioned the owner might be the bench. At the same time, Are you typically dealing with the smaller end of stores, like less than $1 million, with, like the smaller end of stores like less than $1 million, or do you go all the way up to the I call them mega stores, like the multi-location and the 10 mil range?
Speaker 3:All of the above. We have a very specialized shop and very specialized jewelers. Not all work is processed the exact same way, but we can cover again, covering all of the bases. We really are yeah, From large chains to small chains and the mom and pops.
Speaker 1:Man. So I guess I've always wondered. So you, your presentation at the workshop, like I alluded to earlier, was that you like, how can you make our relationship easiest? Like sending in you were talking about slips or is it like packages and making sure that all the information was as relevant and pertinent as possible? Sending them in, making sure everything is, you know, controlled, but at the same time, man, you must be just under, especially at parts times of the year, you guys must be absolutely buried on their packages. How do you make sense of the of the mails from?
Speaker 3:Dates. Our shop is run by the calendar. Everything is by the date and that's why, at the workshop, we really wanted to focus on talking about intake. When the sales person is at the counter and they're taking in that piece of jewelry, it's really important to look over that entire piece and know exactly what needs to be done, so that we're not stopping a job and reaching out to them to say, oh well, this is broken as well. Do you want to fix this? Also Because that's going to delay the dates and delay the turn time and getting the work back to them.
Speaker 3:And it just kind of slows things down here too a little bit.
Speaker 1:Because, at the same time, I can only imagine, especially around, yeah, especially around, the holidays we just got out of the holidays I can only imagine how insane and with a sense of like I don't want to say panic, but like it's very time intensive and like time relevant Are you just dealing with things like does it make you have to work later hours or do you ever get to like? Do you publish, like hey, our wait times are now at six days instead of four days, kind of thing. So how do you handle kind of the communication on your end?
Speaker 3:Well, that is. This is an interesting question for this particular week especially. We had to close on Monday of this week due to weather, and this is also the busiest week of Jewelcraft's calendar.
Speaker 1:Right now really. Oh, this is January 10th, if you're curious Okay.
Speaker 3:So everything that everyone got for Christmas. They need its size, they need the chain shortened, they need links taken out of the watch. So this is yeah, this is our busiest week of the year. It's usually this week and next week and again it's the dates, and we're very old school on some things. We've got Post-its and you know kind of rubber band things to be like okay, these need to be booked in for this day, and then, yes, we stay late and we have mandatory Saturdays. It's a blackout period and a lot of people in the industry are familiar with that.
Speaker 1:Wow, that is a. That's a toughie. What kind of what are like the most common uh gigs? You asked? You said uh untangling hollow chains, what's what's like the most common thing you got asked to do um, I would say probably basic ring sizings.
Speaker 3:This time of year that's probably our heaviest um. But setting stones, laser welding those pieces maybe with sensitive stones we're able to tackle those and a lot of chain repair, new clasps, new heads. We can supply all of the findings and have our own inventory and can order everything that we need to be here next day. Keep it moving.
Speaker 1:So as people send things in, I don't want to say I don't, I love the mail system, don't get me wrong, I do. I always wonder you guys are dealing with thousands and thousands and thousands of packages a year. Your chances of having something go wrong are higher because of the fact you're dealing with such quantity. Do you guys just buy like insane insurance that just really kind of insulates yourself from the possibility of like, yeah, what if this fancy rock is, this package is missing on the way in or on the way out, or something like that? How are you protecting yourselves from the eventualities of life?
Speaker 3:life. We require every single one of our customers to include a replacement value when they're doing their intake and they ship to us, so that we know exactly how to cover that package and get it back to them safely.
Speaker 1:Have you ever seen like a package come in that has like a multi-million dollar value or anything like that, or is there like an upper limit of what you'll see?
Speaker 3:If they're willing to cover it, then we will take it and we'll just a lot of times that is a special call to me or my brother Ross, and somebody will reach out and let us know in advance like hey, this is coming. We're also in a tri-state area here in Northern Kentucky, so there have been times where people have driven from surrounding states something with high value and then come back and picked it up.
Speaker 1:Man, that is a level. That's the thing is. I hear all the time people would, especially with e-commerce. They're like, oh, I would never want to put this product in the mail. And for that I'm always like, well, thousands of other people are doing the exact same thing and they still keep on doing it. So at a certain point I'm like it's got to be safe enough for them, so it needs to be. It should probably be safe enough for you. They're not going to. The postal system isn't going to sniff out. This is your first time doing it and and suddenly nail you on it or make you pay. It's like, um, if entire industries are built on the back of of the postal system, it's, it should work most of the time, right?
Speaker 3:Correct. That's. That's what we're always banking on. Yes, and it's just really important. Everybody knows, but it's always a good reminder. You know, don't write diamonds, don't write jewelry, don't write gold on the box. You know, don't make it obvious and tape it up a little bit more. You know, tape it up maybe a little bit more than you would to make it a little bit harder to get into.
Speaker 1:All right, everybody, we're going to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you in part by National Rarities. If you're looking to bring fresh foot traffic to your store and connect with new customers, national Rarities has you covered. Their three-day buying events are completely free for you as the jeweler, and they average 170 attendees per event. Nearly half of those visitors are brand new to the store. National Rarities buys a wide variety of items from gold and silver to militaria, artwork, designer handbags and more. Plus, they pay a 10% commission to you, the retailer, on everything they purchase. That means more foot traffic, more customers and a direct boost to your bottom line, all at no cost to you. And if you do decide to run a National Rarities event this year and have a Punchmark website, be sure to ask your account manager about the new National Rarities event landing page in Site Manager. Learn more about National Rarities at national raritiescom or reach out to Justin that's J U S T I N at national raritiescom. There'll be more information in the show notes below. And now back to the show. And we're back.
Speaker 1:So I guess I guess one thing I always am curious about. I see you at the trade shows whenever I go to them. And recently you came to our workshop. But again, being B2B, I'm curious what it's like trying to advertise and attract new business. And you said you're focused a lot on retention, but what about the process of actually attracting new business? And you said you're focused a lot on retention, but what about the process of, like, actually attracting new business? Because in the end, your entire company is sort of based on the idea of like not no one really knowing you exist. You know no one is advertising to their customers that they're going to be sending it to you. So is there kind of a best way that you found to kind of advertise that you are this reliable man behind the curtain or what's that like?
Speaker 3:It's. It is a lot of the shows and being in the groups. I would say that most new customers come from customer or vendor referrals. We do have a marketing firm that has helped us rebrand over the last couple of years and, you know, help direct some of our marketing and targeting where we need to be targeting. But at the end of the day, a lot of it really is just a customer referral or a vendor referral or meeting at the shows. Some of the buying groups that have, like the roundtables we always know when the roundtables are because all of a sudden we'll get an influx of people come to the booth and say I heard about you at the roundtable. So-and-so mentioned that they send all of their work to you and that really has been a major advantage in building those relationships and that trust and getting them to just kind of bite the bullet and go ahead and ship it. Let's do this.
Speaker 1:That's that the highest compliment a retailer can pay a vendor is exactly that those referrals. When we see we're the exact same way. We pay attention to all the forums and we pay attention to all the round tables and if someone chouts us out, it's not like it goes out into the void. A lot of the time it echoes back and people come to our booth or they come, they inquire about a website and clients that are willing to, I always say, stake their reputation but like kind of put their name behind us.
Speaker 1:It means so much to all vendors, but also especially people where customers aren't supposed to know that we exist. In the end we want to allow them to spin whatever tail they want. We don't mind if someone pretends like they built their website and we have a little tag at the bottom you could remove. That costs a little bit of money but we don't mind it, because if you want to pretend like you built your website so that people trust you more, I guess that that's okay with us. And I am sure that there are some stores that are um, they don't mention that they are mailing it out and people just assume, like my parents do, that it's being fixed in the back of the house. But those referrals, man, they really can make or break a business for sure.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and I do love the forums as well. They're it just. It always feels so good to be, you know, tagged on a post from you know a customer, or several customers sometimes, and it's just. It's always really nice to see.
Speaker 1:That's really nice. And so again back to this workshop presentation. You were talking about how you can make your job easier and like, hey, we need to be clear, you need to write these things on there. You need to be clear, you need to write these things on there, you need to date everything. Um, let's talk about what is it that jewelers could do that drives you crazy that you're trying to get ahead of Cause that was the main focus of your presentation was, um, trying to make it so that everybody's job is is easier? Um, it sounds like there were some pretty specific examples that you were trying to go after really quickly.
Speaker 3:Well, instructions for one. You would be shocked how often somebody will send something in and not include any instructions at all.
Speaker 2:It's like OK, it's a ring.
Speaker 3:Are we re-tipping it? Are we sizing it? What size do you want it to go to? It's really important, I think also, like I said, to kind of really evaluate the piece with the customer. Show them you know your expertise, show them that you know what you're talking about, that you know that, hey, this really needs new prongs. If we don't put new prongs on this, you might be at risk of, you know, losing this stone, things like that, and mentioning if a stone is broken or abraded. We definitely want to know that in advance, before it comes in, so that we're not stopping at saying like whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm not touching this ring until I know that they know that this diamond has a chip on the girdle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is there like a point where it's like it becomes your responsibility? Is it when you unpackage a package, or is it when you I don't know like cut the bubble wrap off of the product itself? Is there a point where you're like okay, now is our responsibility in your mind?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So we really try and stop as much as possible while we're doing our intake here at the shop. We have a very specific way that we enter jobs into a system and everything gets looped right at the start and everything gets um, like the size is taken and images are taken as well. So we stop as much as we can at that point to say like, oh okay, this stone, this stone is chipped, or you know, it's missing a diamond and they didn't mention that it was missing a diamond. Uh, we'll, right then reach out to the store and find out. But once it hits the jeweler's bench and we haven't reached out and they're like, oh well, I already put prongs on this or tightened the stone, and then I noticed it was chipped. That's on us. We didn't catch it, they didn't mention it and we'll, we'll be the first to take care of it quickly.
Speaker 1:Is there anything that's like a job that comes in and you're like, ah, these are the worst, is there? Is there a worst job for you?
Speaker 3:Yes, and it's an invisible set, anything. An invisible set. Bracelet, invisible set, earrings. Invisible set rings. An invisible set bracelet, invisible set, earrings, invisible set rings. We do it. We've got two people doing it all day, every day, but everyone in the industry will agree that that is the worst.
Speaker 1:Really so invisible set. My friend just got engaged and she has an invisible set row of diamonds on her engagement ring. Is it just because they're difficult to get to or hard to operate on, or like what makes it so hard?
Speaker 3:They're not all. They're not all created equally. Some of them are made better than others. The grooved stones aren't always easy to find and they don't always just kind of snap in, so it's. I feel like it's one of those things that just kind of turns into a nightmare Once one falls out. It just kind of gets that ball rolling, and they're not fun to work on at all.
Speaker 1:And one last one I was thinking of is I've interviewed a lot of custom jewelry designers on here before and people who they, you know, they make their bread by designing, you know, stuff you've never even seen before and a lot of times I kind of had this moment where I was like maybe it's because the stuff we've seen before is like the easiest or best or most efficient or cost or material-effective way of you know making the wheel, do you ever get something in that's like a custom jewelry design? And you're just like, oh my gosh, this is the most like, this is just all way too much metal or this is way. The fact that this even made it through QC is insane to me, specifically for custom jewelry, is that something you're seeing as like the advent of? You know custom jewelry design and CAD becoming more and more popular and accessible?
Speaker 3:I mean, I wouldn't say that we do get requests that shouldn't be done, like jewelry that shouldn't be made, and AI has kind of been playing a little bit of a role in this as well. It's really important to have very strict, set standards and just make sure, okay, listen, we'll do what you're asking us to do, but maybe we won't guarantee it or we reach out to them and say we would love to kind of alter this design just a little bit to protect the integrity of this piece when it's made and finished and ready to go back to the customer.
Speaker 1:That's the thing is like. Again with AI, these AI tools. I think that some of them, they're gorgeous and they're beautiful. Again with AI, these AI tools, I think that some of them they're gorgeous and they're beautiful, but especially things related to, I think is it called tension set, where it's like pieces on either side of a stone, sort of pressing it in. I'm always just like man. It looks really cool, but I cannot help but think like I wear my ring all the time and I bang it and stuff, and I feel like you're just one good bang or one one clumsy, clumsy mistake of trying to grab something as it's falling to, uh, losing your expensive stone and not even noticing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no attention, set rings are beautiful to look at, but it is one of those where you size it once and it's really not ever going to be what it was when you bought it, and it really just kind of depends on on how it was made and and how it was produced.
Speaker 1:All right, one more. Actually, I've got a million questions about these things. So what about working on, for example, luxury brands? So things like, um you know certain watch brands that I won't even mention my name, uh, certain um like luxury boutiques, because I've I've seen online with, like you know, if you go to have like a you know a Tiffany or Cartier uh bracelet, um changed that. Sometimes people won't want to work on it because they have their own ecosystem of repairs. Do you have any rules when it comes to working with established luxury brands like that?
Speaker 3:I am really glad that you asked. We have a lot of relationships with luxury brands where they have actually come down to our shop shown us how they do certain repairs, so that we have become their authorized repair house, so that we are maintaining their brand.
Speaker 1:Oh weird. Oh, I can see how it's a brand concern for them, because yeah, it's. In the end people don't know that it was repaired, they just think that that's what it looked like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we have, you know, david Yerman, one uh, authorized repair house for for David German, and they've been here, they've trained us, they told us where to get the oxidation and how to repair certain pieces, and, yeah, so they have told us how to repair their work.
Speaker 1:Interesting, yeah, and what and and what about watch brands and any anything? Do you handle watch brands because I, or watch repairs because I love watching those videos on online? I that's like my specific brand of brain rot is watching watch repair videos. It seems very finicky, very time intensive, very, uh, high pressure because, god forbid, you lose one of those screws. Is that something you guys are also handling?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have a state of the art clean room here at Jewelcraft where all of our wash repairs are done, and we do have lots of parts accounts with major brands. I'm always like even just kind of like nervous or hesitant to walk in there, like it's so clean and so quiet, and I'm always kind of like holding my breath a little bit like something's going to, like I'm going to break something or breathe on something wrong. That's definitely their own. Watches are their, their own breed. You know it's very different than jewelry repair wow, super cool.
Speaker 1:If you guys ever filmed some of those videos and put them on on tiktok, I'm sure I'll see them, because darn do I love that. I, I like seeing the spring uncoil, I like it all. So, um, stephanie, what's next for, uh, for jewelcraft? It seems that you have a very loyal and established base. You guys have been around for four generations. You guys are adapting with the times and keeping up with these. You know product changes. Is it just business as usual, keeping up? Do you have ambitions for expansion or moving into other types of things? What do you do as the fourth generation owner in this case?
Speaker 3:Yeah, 2025 is going to be pretty exciting for us. We are doing a couple of new shows and the biggest thing going on is that we are implementing a new ERP in 2025.
Speaker 1:Oh, can you explain that a little bit more?
Speaker 3:Oh, I don't think I should be the one to explain it, but we really just right now we're using a couple of different systems and we're just really excited to get everything in one system throughout the entire shop. It'll make things a lot easier on us and on our customers as well, hoping that they don't feel the switch, but they might, you know, notice a difference in the way that the invoice is printed or the job ticket looks. Outside of that, I'm really, you know, fingers crossed that they don't feel it, but I know it's going to be a big overhaul. There's 270 of us here that need to be trained and get on board. Wow.
Speaker 1:That's the kind of stuff that I that I find is such a like is that you know the term like that's not a sexy change, but those things are so important that can it can make or break entire companies. But efficiency is so so you know, paramount to success. But, stephanie, if someone's trying to maybe check out Jewelcraft or learn more, or maybe even get in for their first gig, where can they go to learn more?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. You can go to jewel-craftcom, just like it sounds J-E-W-E-L-hyphen-C-R-A-F-Tcom and reach out to me directly.
Speaker 1:Awesome and let them know that in a loop sent you, it makes us look good too. Stephanie, I can't thank you enough. This is super cool. This it's really is one of those things. Finding out about the stuff that's deeper, that kind of is like the hidden part of the jewelry industry that makes things run smoothly for all these stores, is really quite cool, and hearing that you guys are doing so well and continuing to push forward is really exciting. So thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3:No, thanks so much for having me. It's always fun to catch up. Good to see you and see you guys around soon.
Speaker 1:Absolutely All right. Thanks everybody. We'll be back next week, tuesday, with another episode. Cheers Bye episode. Cheers Bye, all right, everybody. That's the show. Thanks so much for listening. This week, my guest was Stephanie Westdorf from Jewelcraft and you can learn more about them at Jewelcraftcom. That's Jewel-Craftcom. It'll be in the show notes below. This episode was brought to you by Punchmark and produced and hosted by me, michael Burpo. This episode was edited by Paul Suarez with music by Ross Cockrum. Don't forget to rate the podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. It takes one second and it really helps us. Leave us feedback on punchmarkcom slash loop. That's L-O-U-P-E. Thanks. We'll be back next week, tuesday, with another episode. Cheers Bye.
