In the Loupe
In the Loupe
What the Heck Is Happening In the Jewelry World ft. Michelle Graff, Editor-in-Chief at National Jeweler
Michelle Graff, editor-in-chief of National Jeweler, shares insights on unprecedented industry challenges including record-high gold prices and fluctuating tariffs. The jewelry industry faces a period of uncertainty that feels even more unpredictable than the pandemic era.
We cover National Jeweler's impressive 120-year legacy, what stories in the jewelry industry she feels are underserved, and filtering "news" from "noise" every day.
To get more from National Jeweler, visit nationaljeweler.com and select "Subscribe" in the top right to receive their daily newsletter and webinar information.
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Welcome to In the Loop. Well, they're kind of, for me, my source of news about the jewelry industry. They have two print issues that come out monthly. They also have a daily newsletter. That is how I get a lot of my news. They have a lot of articles not just about the state of play for, you know, the jewelry and larger economic scale, but also a lot of fashion pieces as well as news about security and safety for jewelers. They really are kind of the news source, at least for me.
Speaker 1:And speaking with Michelle, she's extremely plugged in to the state of play for the jewelry industry and getting a chance to talk with her was really cool because it allowed me to ask a lot of the questions that I've always had that I never had a expert to inquire with. So speaking with her it was really cool. We talked a lot about tariffs, we talked a lot about the price of gold and how that might have wider implications, and we also talked about the history of National Jeweler, which is turning 120 years old this year. So it's a real kind of a pillar of the community. So I hope you enjoyed this conversation and we'll be back next week, tuesday, with another episode. Cheers.
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Speaker 1:And now back to the show. What is up, everybody? My name is Michael Burpo. I'm joined by Michelle Graff, the editor-in-chief at National Jeweler. How are you doing today, Michelle?
Speaker 3:Well, thank you. We're recording this on a Friday and it's 80 degrees here in New York City, so I'm very well, thank you.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's amazing. It's a balmy 64 up in upstate New York but it's black as night out. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about National Jeweler before we jump into, like, the current state of affairs and everything You've been with him for I think I was looking on your LinkedIn 18 years and you've been editor in chief for nearly 12. Can you talk to me first of all how National Jeweler has evolved in that time and also sort of how you see the probably had a chance to see the industry evolve as well?
Speaker 3:Oh for sure. So when I started at National Jewelry, it was late 2007. So I got in just before the Great Recession and at that time we were and National Jewelry is, just so everybody knows going to celebrate 120 years next year. Next year is our 120th anniversary, which is incredible for any media in the current landscape. But when I started there, we were a print publication and we did have our daily newsletter, but we were still 10 times a year, so 10 months out of the year we had a print issue. And the way it worked when I first started is we worked on the newsletter in the morning and then the afternoon after lunch was completely devoted to the print issue. And the way it worked when I first started is we worked on the newsletter in the morning and then the afternoon after lunch was completely devoted to the print product. I'm not going to get the dates exactly right, but somewhere along the way I'm going to say maybe it was about 2013. We went fully online. Only we had a digital magazine for a little bit. We kind of experimented with that.
Speaker 3:And then in 2015, jewelers of America bought National Jeweler from Emerald, which is the company that owns the Couture show, the antique shows. When I joined National Jeweler, we were owned by the same company that owned Couture and the JA New York show. Then Jew jewelers america bought us and a couple years after that purchase we brought back our two flagship print issues. Everybody is very familiar with the state of the majors, which is the listing of the biggest jeweler sellers in the in north america, and it also contains uh stories about state. You know, the state of colored stones, the state of fashion, the state of diamonds, the state of retail stones, the state of fashion, the state of diamonds, the state of retail, and then our other flagship publication is the Retailer Hall of Fame State of the Majors will be out in the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 3:We publish that each May before the shows and the Retailer Hall of Fame will come out in October.
Speaker 1:That's so cool. They sound like they have a very distinct kind of personality each, as well as the digital newsletter. Do you feel sometimes like you have to be like a parent that has to have equal appreciation for each of them, or does one have a very special spot in your heart?
Speaker 3:Well, I don't want to say I have a favorite.
Speaker 1:Not to put you on the spot.
Speaker 3:I don't want to say I have a favorite child. They're just both very different, right? Like the stories we do online, it's short. They're shorter, it's breaking news. You know, we're just. You know, sometimes we have longer stories online that we work on in over a couple of days. Sometimes we're just kind of like you know, this happened today, there was you know this crime or this lawsuit or something, and you know we just turn it around pretty quickly, whereas the print publication we're working on for months.
Speaker 3:And I like them both for different reasons. So I don't, I don't have a favorite. I mean, I I used to work at a daily newspaper. That was my first job in journalism, after well, second job in journalism after I graduated from college. So I don't mind the kind of daily grind, because that's what we were doing in a daily newspaper too, and that's actually part of the reason I was hired here. They were looking for somebody because they just started this newsletter. They were looking for somebody with daily newspaper experience. So I like them both for different reasons. And you're right, they are very different.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about. You've been in this industry for um, for quite a while. You've seen things change and uh, I guess, eerily you came in when we were going through the first recession that I can remember and uh, as well, I mean I like to see, I've been here for eight years now it will be eight years next month and in that time I've seen, I think, a lot of attitudes shift towards a towards a lot of things. I of seeing, over the course of you know your tenure in this industry kind of the rise and fall of several different things.
Speaker 3:it seems like Well, I think I mean the biggest change for everything in the world from 2017. Right now, the base of all the change is technology. Right? Technology has changed how we communicate. It has changed how the right.
Speaker 3:Technology has changed how we communicate, it has changed how the world works and it has changed how products are sold. So with the rise of technology, obviously you know you've seen a lot of changes in the industry. Business models have changed and I mean that at its core is the biggest change, two things that we point out, like obviously, like jewelers have adopted, they've gotten websites, they're active on social media. But it's also changed distribution, right, because now you have suppliers who are essentially competing against the retailers selling online. And when first I remember this when brands that traditionally sold in jewelry stores first started selling online, it was a big deal and it was always news and it was always you know, you know you get a lot of clicks on those stories because it was like you know, x brand is now selling online. But I think that's kind of you know, I don't it's not that people like it, but I think it's it's kind of expected now. And also you've had this kind of rise of independent designers, which has been fantastic to see particularly more women independent designers. And you've seen, you know, now anytime there's a designer, it's kind of understood like, yeah, you're going to stock this designer and they're going to sell in the store, but they also have their own e-commerce site and, honestly, it works. But it was such a big deal at first when any kind of somebody that had traditionally been a vendor, a brand that was B2B, went D2C. But that's become less of a big deal now.
Speaker 3:The other evolution I've seen and I've loved this one I love to see how jewelers, particularly independent jewelers, have really embraced technology. I remember at first, like Blue Nile was like the boogeyman and that was. You know, everyone hated Blue Nile and there was all this argument about well, people know, everyone hated Blue Nile and there was all this argument about, well, people aren't going to buy diamonds online, they're not going to buy expensive jewelry online and they do. They do. I mean, a lot of people still come in the store to do it, to buy it, but they do buy online. But you know, jewelers have gotten in now. They've gotten good websites and I'd love to see how they've adopted social media. You know, I remember when Facebook first started and Instagram, there were all these stories about oh, jewelers are behind, jewelers are behind, jewelers are behind, and we were. We were behind as an industry, but I feel like we've kind of caught up and when I we all talk about this in the office all the time when TikTok came online and started to get big, I thought a lot of jewelers were really quick to jump on it and to start doing reels and it's amazing to see.
Speaker 3:I think a lot of people probably learned their lesson the first time around. I remember going to seminars and education sessions, at shows and at, you know, ajs Conclave. People would always ask the question well, I'm not going to sell anything through social media, what's the point of being there? Like, I'm not going to sell anything? And it's like well, you're there to like, get people's attention. You're there to make your brand, you're there to be seen. Like what? Maybe what you sell through there is minimal, but it still makes a difference. And I think people finally like got that this time around. And I think, too, obviously the pandemic played a big role in that, because the pandemic probably did weed out some people who, just you know, refused to get on that train. Absolutely there was no other way to do it.
Speaker 1:I definitely think that the people who a lot of the people who were reluctant to adopt technology and modern selling and things like that, or just to have more of an omnichannel experience A lot of them, yeah did have to either decide if they were going to adapt really suddenly or they went the way of the dodo during the pandemic. But even in my time, when I started in 2017, punchbox was not taken seriously when it came to e-commerce, even though we had a couple of stores that were doing well, it was absolutely not the norm, and a lot of jewelers even scoffed at the idea, thinking like, oh, why would I miss the opportunity at clienteling and encouraging people to come to my store so I can build that relationship with them? If I sell online, then it's like I sell the item, but the relationship ends there. But now I think jewelers have seen it. Most jewelers have made at least one online sale in the past and they realized, hey, free money is just as good as regular money.
Speaker 3:A sale is a sale. And look, having a website that's e-commerce and that's easily searchable and well done, I think it makes a huge difference because somebody could come in your store and see something and then maybe like, oh, do I have some? Like I do this. Sometimes I go in a store and I see something. I'm like, do I have something at home? Like do I really need this? And I go home and think about it and a couple of days later, if I'm still like, oh, I really want that pair of jeans or that dress, I'll go home and buy it online. But you know, maybe I don't feel like running back out to the store, Like it just gives people an option to be able to access your inventory 24 seven, and maybe they start their journey online and come in. Maybe they come in and they go back online and and make the purchase there. But why? Why wouldn't you give them the opportunity? I just think, as a business, honestly, anymore if you don't have e-commerce, you look kind of suspect.
Speaker 1:I agree, I'm totally with you. Actually, the episode before this one is literally titled why Now is a Good Time to Turn on E-Commerce. So I think we're hitting it right on the head. But the main, biggest thing I wanted to bring you on for Michelle is, as someone who's very plugged into, I guess, the state of play when it comes to jewelry and I must admit I'm not fully understanding everything on a global scale it sometimes does kind of kick outside my coverage.
Speaker 1:I wanted to ask about this sort of state of uncertainty that sometimes is just in the economy in general, but also specifically in the jewelry industry. Unfortunately, it comes at the result of you penned a piece on tariffs and then I reached out to you. I was like hey, I loved your piece on tariffs, I thought it was really interesting, I would love to talk about them. And then you're like okay, let's talk about them. And then 20 minutes later it was like oh no, they're paused. So it seems like every other day they're paused and they're back on. They're paused as of right now, may 2nd 2025, are the tariffs on or are they off right now?
Speaker 3:So here's what happened. So we're going to go. It's actually exactly a month now. I'm going to flip back in the calendar here.
Speaker 3:So on April 2nd there was announcement about the slate of so-called reciprocal tariffs. That included, you know, high rates on countries like India, thailand, vietnam, sri Lanka, botswana, like a lot of countries that are very key to the jewelry trade, and there was reciprocal tariffs. And there was also, on any country that for which there was not listed a higher reciprocal tariff, there was a baseline tariff of 10% across the board. That baseline tariff, I believe, went into effect on April 5th. So this press conference took place on April 2nd. These tariffs were announced On April 5th. The baseline of 10% went into effect. Then the following week it was exactly a week later, on April 9th the reciprocal tariffs went into effect at 12.01 am Eastern time. So the minute it hit Wednesday the 9th in the United States, and then about 1, 1.30 that afternoon it was announced that the reciprocal tariffs were paused, but this baseline of 10% remains in effect across the board.
Speaker 3:Now the country excluded from this and I think everybody knows about this because it is in the news absolutely every single day is China, and China, where obviously there's a back and forth with China. People called it a trade war. There's a back and forth with China and China, where obviously there's a back and forth with China. People called it a trade war. There's a back and forth with China and so the tariffs on Chinese goods are much higher, but nobody. We actually just did a piece.
Speaker 3:Lauren McElmore, who is my associate editor, who covers the Jemston market, just did a piece and she was interviewing Jeff Mason with Mason K Jade and he is just, he just got a shipment from China and we were asking him we're like so the tariffs are 145%, right, and he's like I don't know exactly like it's. It's higher for some product and what we've understood from research is higher for some products, lower for some products. He said he wasn't, it was, he was waiting for like some repairs and a custom order from China and he's like I'm not exactly sure how they're going to tax this. So also just to be clear, so everybody understands a tariff is a tax and the tax is paid by the person importing it into the United States. It's not paid by the country from whence it's coming, and I think sometimes there's confusion about that.
Speaker 1:But also in your article about the initial tariffs, which I'm not going to say became obsolete but it became altered shortly after you published it.
Speaker 2:No, I'm not saying that.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, but the one thing that was interesting was you were giving examples behind, like, okay, if a gemstone is mined here and then it's cut here, the tariff is this much, and then it's cut here, the tariff is this much, and I needed like a flow sheet. It was so there's so many rules and exceptions and then if it goes through China, god forbid, and suddenly you're paying out the nose.
Speaker 3:It was crazy to me. So there's this whole thing called substantial transformation, and I first became aware of substantial transformation. This first came up a few years ago when the sanctions were put on Russian diamonds and there was a whole issue of substantial transformation which refers to. So we'll just give it in jewelry terms as an example. I'm a company and I mine my diamonds in Botswana. These diamonds are mine in Botswana, so they're rough diamonds, right, but they're sent to India to be cut and polished.
Speaker 3:So what happens in India? When the rough diamond is cut and polished and becomes a faceted diamond, the kind of diamond you see in tennis necklaces and engagement rings, it's then considered to be quote substantially transformed and it becomes a product of India and then it is subject to the tariff of India, not the tariff of Botswana. So that's kind of the biggest question we were getting. Like what if the diamond's mine here and it's cut here and it's set here and that is where it is considered to be substantially transformed is then becomes its country of origin and that is the tariff that is applied and in that case, the tariff I don't have the exact rates in front of me, but I believe the tariff on India was maybe 29% and the tariff on Botswana was maybe 36. I'm just throwing out numbers here. I'm not exactly sure. I'd have to look, but that is the tariff on India actually would be better in that case, because they have a low tariff rate.
Speaker 3:Now, what's going to happen in 90 days from now? Are these tariffs going to be unpaused and go into effect as they were introduced? I can't tell you that. I don't know at all. India, interestingly, which is where 90% of the world's diamonds are cut, was one of the first countries to come forward and try to negotiate, and I have heard I was speaking with an analyst a couple of weeks ago who said he thinks India is going to be one of the countries that gets cut a deal which is, for the jewelry industry, good news on many levels. But of course there's a lot of different moving parts. That doesn't solve everything, but that is where we are right now.
Speaker 1:It that doesn't solve everything, but that is where we are right now. It's fascinating. That's exactly what I was curious about. But also in the same point is like, for example, with China there's a lot more trade through China than I had really kind of known about, and the fact that that I mean what is it like?
Speaker 3:120%, that is like-, 145%, 145%, we're not exactly sure how this is being assessed, like we try to get an answer from somebody we just interviewed. He's like I don't know yet I'm not clear how these things are taxed, particularly. And I'd also point out that industry organizations Jewelers America, who owns us, and the American Gem Trade Association, are lobbying for exemptions for things we do not and cannot make here. You know diamonds, sri Lankan sapphires, colombian emeralds, you know emeralds from Zambia or gems from Tanzania or Kenya. You know things we cannot make here. So that's also happening. So there's a lot of balls up in the air right now. So I think there's kind of two kind of avenues of uncertainty. There's the uncertainty on the trades part, like we're talking to a lot of designers ahead of the tour show and the JCK show in Las Vegas and they're like I don't know how to price things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the question.
Speaker 3:What's the replacement cost for this piece going to be, this gemstone, this gold? It's made here. You know they don't know how to price things. Plus the price of gold, they're having to raise the prices anyway. I mean, what is it today? 3200, almost 3300. I think it went down a little bit today. I think it was 34 earlier in the week, but um, so they don't.
Speaker 3:You know they're unsure how to price things. I think international vendors are unsure about coming about, how much it's going to cost them to bring their goods in, how they can bring their goods in, what they need to bring their goods in. And then you also have, like, if there's consumer uncertainty, if people aren't sure what it's going to cost them, is that going to have an effect? Probably not at the high, high end, but is that going to have some effect on jewelry sales? You know, if you're looking at, well, I need to get a new car, or I need new appliances, or you know I need this for my kids or whatever, and you're going to have everything's going to cost you twice as much. Like are you going to have. You know, I love jewelry but it's not. It's not something like a car or food that's necessary.
Speaker 3:It's a luxury and it's you know, if people's disposable income takes a hit, I don't know where that's going to leave us. So I mean, these are what we don't, let's the thing we don't know. So it's all these kind of like. I know, I don't know that I've ever faced a period where it's just there's just so much up in the air, like this feels more up in the air to me than the pandemic did.
Speaker 1:Wow, and that was one of the, I mean one of the articles off National Jewelry was consumer confidence is at a pandemic level lows, and it's wild to me to think back to that period of time where the reasons felt more, it's terrible to say, but like more tangible, like why are things costing more? Or like why is is my confidence that something is going to be like successfully delivered to my door in the state that I expected, uh, it's because of, like, all these things related to, like this, you know, illness, but at the same time, um, this it feels so like is it going to come to pass? I mean, we, like you said, we have another 60 days before we know the answer. Unfortunately, jck is, you know, going to be right inside of that mark.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker 1:How does it be?
Speaker 3:better for the industry if we had even if they were bad answers, if we had some kind of answers before this. But we don't. That's the thing.
Speaker 1:So I don't know. Do you think that that, like on, can we go?
Speaker 3:back to consumer confidence for one second.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:You know the interesting. So every month we've put on the conference board consumer confidence. I don't know that always gels with consumer spending. Sometimes it feels like they're saying, oh, consumer confidence is down, but people are still out there spending. But this is now five months in a row that it has been down.
Speaker 3:And you know the thing, if you read the story, what it said basically was like people don't feel so bad currently about right now. And in fact I was just listening to NPR this morning and they were saying you know, the most recent jobs report was good and unemployment's low, so people don't feel so stressed or concerned about their current situation. But people's outlook about what things are going to look like six months from now is poor and maybe that'll change. Like I said, we don't, you know, I just don't know. Maybe the whole reciprocal tariff thing will I don't want to say go away, but be resolved. Maybe there'll be agreements with some country. Maybe there'll be exemptions from gemstones Like we don't know.
Speaker 3:But you know people are nervous and people don't like uncertainty and you know stock markets don't like it either and that's why the markets have been so up and down, which a lot of jewelers will tell you too, affects their consumers buying. There was one year it might've been 2019. It was pre-pandemic, for sure where everyone was having a super strong year and then the stock market tanked right before Christmas and I remember so many jewelers saying like they had a terrible Christmas. It was like it had been a fine year and then it ended on a terrible note. You know, on the flip side, everybody was so scared when the pandemic started that nobody would buy jewelry, and jewelry sales absolutely flourished in 2020, 2021 into 2022. People had they weren't going anywhere, you know, instead of like taking this anniversary trip, they got a nice piece of jewelry that had lots of disposable income and, you know jewelry makes you feel good, so people were buying it. So Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Do you think, though, that these increased costs on as a result of tariffs? There's been a lot of discussions in a lot of the online forums talking about should the cost and the increase in prices be passed to the retailer, to the consumer, should they be split between the manufacturer and the vendor? Or, if you had to make a prediction, who's going to end up having to pay more? Is it all parties involved, or is someone in the middle going to just be able to say, hey, prices are more, so I'm just going to charge that much more, and it kind of just washes over them more or less?
Speaker 3:I mean, I think it's going to depend on the industry and where the margins lie right, like if you're selling something that's, you know, basically sold on a name, like I'm not going to say a company name specifically, but let's just talk about some of this like like athletic wear, like yoga pants, some of this stuff is like outrageously priced for what it is.
Speaker 3:I think so in that case I was actually I actually was at Pilates this morning thinking about this. In that case I would say, probably, if I was that company, that brand, I might try to eat a lot of that myself and go down on my margins a little bit, because I'm already charging people so much for this product. I already have this massive margin. You know I'm charging, you know X amount of dollars for these yoga pants that cost me $2 to make. Make. Do you see what I'm saying?
Speaker 3:I am yeah, and it's hard to see how, when you have something that's like a premium product, like that, how you could raise prices anyway. But I don't know, maybe you could and people would still buy because it's your name and they have money and they like your product. But I think it's really gonna. It's really gonna depend on the industry and who, who has the margin to be able to do it.
Speaker 1:I see, and the jewelry industry.
Speaker 3:You know I was wondering. It's going to be hard because, like I said, people are already going to. We've already got three notifications from brands saying we're raising our prices because of the gold prices, like haven't even commented on the tariffs yet, but saying we're raising prices because of gold prices. So I don't know, but how much? And if you're a retailer, how much price elasticity do you think you have with your consumer? Like how much could you raise prices before people start buying and you start losing consumers? And I guess that depends on which end of the market you're in and like can your manufacturer take a little bit? Can everybody take a little bit? Can the manufacturer eat a little bit? The retailer eat a little bit and then raise prices a little bit? I don't know. But it's like I said, it's also going to depend on where you get your products or materials and what kind of tariff that particular country, the imports from that particular country, face.
Speaker 1:And that was tying really well into, for example, with talking about gold. So I had a mutual friend of ours, david Siminsky, on a couple of weeks ago. We were talking all about why is the price of gold so high and he was explaining all these factors and it was very fascinating. But one thing he mentioned is that when gold had spiked in the past, then a lot of the times consumers don't really, I guess, pay attention to that as much as you might expect. When you just say like, hey, price of gold is up when they go to do a custom jewelry piece, they just understand that that is what they're paying. They don't have like the.
Speaker 1:It's like arguing the price of gas in a construction project. Suddenly it's like, oh, it's baked into it and it's more kind of inside of the project. However, increasingly I mean, the price of gold is setting all time highs every single day. It seems like it just hit 3,500 a few days ago and I was like, oh, surely it won't go any higher than that. It recedes a little bit and then who knows where it's going to go for the rest of the year. You've been around for a little while following this. What similarities can you draw? Any historical similarities to what is going on with gold and how it might kind of impact retailers.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean the gold is in historic size, like everyone knows this. It's never been this much. You know, I've been thinking about this lately, the kind of like history of metals, if you will, in the brief time I've been in the industry. So, like I said, I came in just before the recession and when the recession was really tough. The recession hit the hit this industry hard. I remember there being like very lean years at national jeweler, very lean years for jewelers. The shows were pared down and I remember that silver had a huge bump during that period and that's also kind of.
Speaker 3:When Pandora took off in the United States and there was, I mean, everybody was making silver collections and silver was huge. And then you know, so white metal people were into white metal, but silver basically because in this time too, the price of platinum was higher. For for as long as I can remember, the price of platinum has been higher than the price of gold. Um, that's not the case anymore, but it was for a long time. So silver was really in and then, um, and then I don't know when it would have started, but starting maybe somewhere around, like maybe 2013, 2012. Um, you started to see in. It became as more as a fashion trend that people were really getting back into yellow gold. I would also say, like, at the time that silver was very popular, yellow gold itself was kind of out of fashion, Like you didn't see it as much and you would have never seen yellow gold in a bridal piece.
Speaker 3:I'm going to make a reference to a television show. There was an episode of Sex and the City where Harry got an engagement ring she did not like from Aiden and she was, you know, describing to the other woman other women how terrible she thought it was and she was like it was this kind of diamond with a gold band and they're all like yes. And then one of her friends is like you wear yellow gold. She's like yeah, but it's like fake gold for fun, or whatever. She said she's like this is my engagement ring. Like when I first started in the industry, everybody had a white metal engagement ring, white gold or platinum, and you know the trend was full metals.
Speaker 3:So whether that was white gold or silver, so then silver obviously obviously was very popular because it was more inexpensive and nobody had any money during the recession, some point people started to come out of it and then, you know, like I said, the turning back to yellow gold, was it just really caught on as a fashion trend before. But trends are all cyclical, right?
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:You know people for a long time were only wearing white metals and nobody would have dreamed of getting engaged with, you know gasp a yellow gold ring. But we see a lot of yellow gold and bridal now rose gold at a moment. But I think yellow gold's kind of like what we see a lot of now, including celebrities and so and yellow gold is just the style for fashion jewelry Everybody yellow gold chains and tennis necklaces and earrings and you know having four piercings in each ear and rings like it's yellow gold is everywhere. But interestingly, I have seen a little bit of a start of a tilt back till silver and there's also we had somebody we were working on an article about trends of the past decade for our state of the majors issue and some one of the people we interviewed was saying that she thinks two-tone is going to be the next big thing.
Speaker 3:So gold and silver which if you have a big piece, it is going to be the next big thing. So gold and silver which if you have a big piece, it's going to help keep the price down, right, If some of it's silver and gold and it's not all gold like and also two-tone has kind of been out for a while. Like I said, everything you know, everything takes its turn Like people get very obsessed with one thing for a long time. Then people you know that kind of goes out of style, that they get sick of it or whatever, and the next thing comes in. So I'd be interested to see how much silver we see in Las Vegas and how much two-tone.
Speaker 1:Give us enough time, we'll be back with bell-bottom jeans, so I definitely-.
Speaker 3:That's another great example. Like skinny jeans, that was the. That was the thing for a while. Like I, when I was in college, everybody was wearing wide leg. We just called them wide leg Right and you know my mom thought it was funny because she was like, oh, those are like bell bottoms you know her time, and then that it was skinny, and now you see wide leg pants again.
Speaker 1:So give it enough time, it will come all the way back it all it all, it all rotates in and out.
Speaker 3:I think if you ask somebody that was in the industry, like I mean, I feel like I've been in the industry a long time but there's so many people in this industry twice as long as me, I mean I think they've probably seen everything come and go five times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's the thing with that, you know David was also mentioning is that during the the great, you know, the recession, during the recession especially, I think it was, yeah, 2007, 8, he was talking about how we buy gold was this thing and it kept a lot of jewelers doing pretty well and some of them, some jewelers were really smart and they saved the money and they weathered the storm and some they treated themselves with it.
Speaker 1:Do you think that that is going to be kind of a trend we see come back as well, as jewelers buying increasingly advertising that they buy gold and kind of seeing that as like a way for jewelers to have I don't want to say like a utility impact, but more of like a service that they can start to add on to their business models?
Speaker 3:I mean I've seen a little bit here and there on instagram like jewelers putting up posts and being like did you know? The price of gold is an all-time high, we can buy your gold. But I think it seems like it's being done at least on instagram, in kind of a more tasteful manner, and it doesn't look. So you know, we buy gold, big banner outside, you know, I mean it looks like more elegant and luxury?
Speaker 3:I think it's probably, but I've actually I haven't seen or heard as much of it as I would have thought. But I also think the price of gold has just shot up so fast. You know, it's something I should probably talk to jewelers about in the coming months, like you know, are you, I'm sure, I'm sure they would and I'm sure they will. I just haven't seen it as much. You, dave, is right. It was so prevalent, like it was every, everywhere, with gold buying events in the recession it was everywhere.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned speaking with jewelers. I was wondering do you have like a, like a cohort or like a, a group of jewelers that you speak with, uh, that provide you information? I'm assuming that you know, as being editor-in-chief, that you're not working in a jewelry store. Um, apart from attending trade shows, do you speak with, with a group of jewelers regularly to to find out what trends are happening or, uh, what their kind of the sympathy is in the industry?
Speaker 3:I don't have a specific group, but I talk to jewelers all the time and, whether it's like and you, I also watch what people talk about online. You know that you can get a lot of information scrolling through Facebook or Instagram. You know just what conversations are people having. There's also somebody emailed me recently about something they were doing and they were talking about. This is interesting how they were doing this particular thing, because they had been watching conversations on Reddit.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 3:You know, right To like see what the conversations are and that's probably more like jeweler to consumer, like jewelers want to see what consumers are saying. But you know I feel like we have our finger on the pulse. But I mean, if more people want to contact me, I'm always happy to get it. I did put my email address in that tariff story which one of my editors was like are you sure you want to do that?
Speaker 3:That's where I got it but my email address is at the top of every story anyway. If you click my name, it automatically opens an email to me. Little trick.
Speaker 1:But you know I got a lot of emails but you know fair like I'm trying to get answers for people, so I guess around that side type of thing when it comes to JZK it's coming up.
Speaker 1:That's what I am going to be really paying attention to is I just started working at a greater capacity with our vendor partners, so I'm going to try my hardest to go around and introduce myself to as many of them as I can. But what's fascinating is jewelers are not just everybody knows this but jewelers are not just buying in June for July. A lot of the times they're buying for Christmas right now, yeah, for Christmas, and who knows what the world's going to look like then. Do you foresee, if you were to make a prediction on this, do you think that jewelers are going to be more reticent in like kind of conserving and holding onto their chips if you will going into JCK because they don't know where things are shifting? Or do you predict that people might see this as a investment opportunity to get things kind of at a cheaper price point before they maybe continue going up and to the right around the Christmas holidays?
Speaker 3:Boy, that's a really good question. I don't know, honestly, I don't know. You know, I've been talking. I met a couple weeks ago with the designer and he was showing me his, you know, the collections he's going to be rolling out at JCK and I asked him what he thought. Or he was rolling out in Vegas, I can't remember which show he said he was going to, but and he said he thought that not that many people were even going to come to the shows.
Speaker 3:So but I, you know, I don't know and I don't want to, you know, cast aspersions on the shows. We're going to be there and we're going to be curious to see what people are buying, how they're buying, how they're approaching things, because I think everybody has a different approach and, to be fair to you, everybody kind of has a different market. You know, if my customers are kind of more middle income, then that's a different thing than if I am in, you know, one am in, you know, one of the wealthiest communities on the East Coast and all of my customers are millionaires and billionaires.
Speaker 1:That is a very different, different game to be playing it's a very different customer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely so you know, I think everybody, I think you know I would hope everybody's going to come with some kind of plan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's going to be the goal for us. A big part of it is going to be speaking with jewelers, and Punchmark did extra well around the pandemic, essentially because of not just the rise of e-commerce and jewelers needed to rely on their website suddenly, but also because there did seem to be. Everyone took a moment. They were like, okay, who is going to be the voice of reason and speak articulately about what is happening and actually be leaders, and I think that what we're seeing right now with uncertainty like we've already covered that there is an appetite, a growing appetite for leadership and people to kind of have some type of calming voice and people to kind of have some type of calming voice.
Speaker 1:That's how our podcast actually started is. We started in March 2020 as the Jewelers Survival Kit. That was our original podcast and we were covering how jewelers could stay on top of having their physical locations shut down. And now, as this is coming up, I've started to shift my hardest into these topical ones, like the price of gold and understanding these price fluctuations, as best I can, but kind of I can sort of feel like that's what's going on and I think that JCK is going to be the best opportunity I'll have to really speak with people and try to listen as best as I can.
Speaker 3:And it's also fair to say like we're still I mean the shows are a little bit later this year we're still like a month and a week out from the shows. So I could give you an answer today, but you know every you know situations could change in five weeks. You know our month or however long it is till we're going.
Speaker 1:Yep, michelle, we're going to take a quick break and when we come back I want to talk a little bit more about National Jewelry. So everybody, stay with us. Punchmark is so excited to announce the launch of our email marketing campaigns crafted specifically for jewelers. Take your jewelry stores marketing to the next level with Punchmark's email marketing service. We created tailored data-driven campaigns that will not only engage We'll see you next time business through the power of strategic email marketing. Learn more at punchmarkcom. Slash email dash marketing Again, that's punchmarkcom. Slash email dash marketing. And now back to the show.
Speaker 1:Okay, everybody still speaking with Michelle Graff from from national jeweler. So, michelle, I was just telling you I, uh, national jeweler to me is a, is an email newsletter. That's that's what it is for me. However, uh, you do have these other um, uh, print media as well. I was wondering, when you talk about national jeweler, what is like the main kind of focus and reach that you're trying to kind of convey? Is it about like these daily happenings, like with business, but are? Is it about fashion? How do you kind of view national jeweler?
Speaker 3:Well, I think it's so funny that you viewed as a newsletter, because it's we're going to be. Did I mention already we're going to be 120 years old next year?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker 3:Like that's incredible. Like we've been around for longer. Jck is a little bit older, jck magazine and they're a little bit older, but you know 120 years and still be going in this media landscape is pretty, pretty incredible. Yeah, so I view it as like what we were trying to do on a daily basis is I get a lot of input, right, I get a lot of emails. There's a lot of stuff going on. There's four of us. There's four of us that do this every day.
Speaker 3:And what I mean do this? We do the newsletter, we do all the social media promotion and you know we and we write the stories, we size the pictures, we put together the newsletter, then we're, you know, we're trying to put it on LinkedIn, we're putting on our Instagram, we're reels, we have stories. So it's basically what I'm saying here. Is this a lot of work? So I have to be good at narrowing down this input to what's important, like what do jewelers really want to hear about? Do they need to hear about every little grab and run? Do they need to hear about every single watch or necklace that comes up for auction? No, we try to focus on the things that are really interesting or, you know, unusual. Like they always say, news is the different and unusual Things that are interesting, unusual and things that I think would help jewelers with their business, like interesting marketing campaigns other people are doing. You know, obviously we have to report when one person leaves here and goes over there. That's of interest to people. You know we have a regular slate of columnists. We have Peter Smith, manuel Rahib, lillian Raji, sherry Smith and God help me, I hope I'm not forgetting somebody oh and Jen Cullen Williams, and they all write for us and they all have kind of a different lane and their columns are meant to be like, very informative.
Speaker 3:You know, national jewelers are trade publication. When I think of trade, right, you're supposed to be writing helping people run their business better. But when you turn into a daily publication, you also are a news organization. So I try to make it a blend of both. Like here's kind of like what's going on in the space that you need to know today that's happening in jewelry or happening in retail on a larger scale that might impact your business, and here are also tips for running your business. So that's the way I look at the daily newsletter and you know I obviously with news, sometimes we're going to have the same story as other trade publications, but I try not to do that too much, cause I kind of feel like you know, if X happened and I didn't see it and this other person did and it was in there first, then so be it. Like people have seen it, I don't need to re rerun it.
Speaker 1:Is that something that you have to kind of be a student of the game as well? You need to be reading everybody else so that you know how to differentiate yourself. That must be kind of interesting.
Speaker 3:I mean it's a thousand percent and it's the same thing I'm sure jewelers do. If they're in a town, you know they don't want to be. If this jeweler down the streets the color of stone expert, and this jeweler over there is somebody that you is known for getting you know all the trendy, hip, new designers, then you don't necessarily want to be following exactly what they're doing. You know, and sometimes if there's breaking news somewhere, sometimes we do cover it because it's like, well, I can't pretend that story didn't happen or skip that story. But you know, sometimes it's like, well, people have seen that already. Like moving on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, on the topic of, you know, smash and grabs and robberies. It's a topic that I have. You know we're 250 episodes into this. I've always wanted to do an episode specifically about security and robberies and things like that, because it is inherently a part of the industry. It's not something that people love to discuss that much and that's one of the reasons why I don't know how to go about it. Should I be speaking with someone who was just robbed or had a case that was covered or has been resolved? You guys have always covered these with a lot of touch, I might say, or grace, or whatever that word is, because we don't want to sensationalize it though. News can be sensational, you know can be. I mean, there's tons of movies about, about, robberies and and about and it's usually from the thief's point of view. How do you balance that kind of that, that topic where it's, it's educating the public, it's, you know, conveying the information. But it's not that sensationalism which, like, might be giving kind of almost encouragement to the act.
Speaker 3:Right. So something to know about me. When I worked at the Daily Newspaper, I covered crime, so I used to sit with a police scanner. This was back in the day. I used to sit with that. There's my. I used to sit with a police scanner at my desk and I had a list of the police codes and I would listen, like you kind of learned, adopted the skill of like being able to work on something while also semi listening to something else, and your, your kind of got trained for like, there was like one number for murder, one for an armed robbery, one for a car accident, one for a car accident with fatalities, there was a number for a plane crash, and so I used to run out and when I heard, I'd grab a photographer and run out to cover stuff and I had to cover a lot of, unfortunately, homicides, and I used to have to go knock on people's doors this was a long time ago again Go knock on people's doors and say, hey, you know this happened here.
Speaker 3:Did you see anything? Did you hear anything Like what? Can you tell me about this house where this happened? I also had to go talk to a lot of people who had just lost a loved one. And that's hard and it gives you a lot of sympathy for people who are grieving and it gives you, like you described it as a touch, and that kind of is a touch to it. And I remember when I was doing this I was probably 23 years old, I was really young, and I remember, you know, when I first used to do it I was scared to death. I was scared to death to go like knock on these people's doors, but I just, you know, you kind of get over it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You learn how to do it, and so I think that's probably part of the reason we're good at covering crime is because it's something I have a lot of experience doing, and I think for jewelers, you have to look at it as the perspective of why am I telling people this? This was also covered on their local news. It was in their local newspaper. People posted about it on Nextdoor or on Facebook or whatever. But we want to point out like, hey, in this situation, this is what happened. These are things that could have been done differently to prevent the crime or mitigate the losses, and that's what we always try to keep in mind. And if you want to talk to someone about security, call the Juris Security Alliance. John Kennedy he just retired. He was great. He ran it for years. Jennifer is doing a great job and they absolutely will help you.
Speaker 3:And anytime they put out a bulletin, an alert you know there was, you know, a massive safe robbery at XYZ they always include a list of tips. You know, don't put your safe here. You know X1, 2, they just include a list of five, six tips about, like you know, here's what this situation happened. Or, and this is how, like this is how things could have been handled differently. And it's not a way to criticize the store where it happened. It's just to say if you're faced, you know here are things to think about in your store and you know it's also good. Another reason we cover it is if there are people who are if you will repeat offenders and we have good pictures of them. You could say these three people have now, you know, committed smash and grabs or grab and runs or distraction thefts that you know stores in these states. So if you're kind of in this radius, be on the lookout for these individuals.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's a. I think that that might be the angle is not, again, not celebrating it, it's more if you can come at it from an educational standpoint. I do think that there is inherent value in that because it's like, hey, learn from this you know tragic incident and being able to, like, come out the better from it. But I do think that, yeah, the way that you guys handle it is something I hate to say this I am very interested in it. It is something that I read the articles because I do find that fascinating.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean honestly, almost everybody does Just look in general like what a big genre true crime is and you know I can tell you from our standpoint those articles are some of the most read on the site. But you know it's for jewelers, it's universal. They all have valuable things that people want. They all have valuable things that are small and portable and easily moved along and they all have to think about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now, as we wrap this up, michelle, I wanted to ask you are again very plugged in with the industry, better than probably anybody that I've spoken with, and I'm wondering if there is a topic or a trend or a story that you think should be getting more air. For a long time, mine was. I feel like we don't talk enough about e-commerce and online and, as I started kind of beating the drum, it seems like jewelers are coming around. I think that the industry is a little like you had mentioned slow, but they do kind of move with force. Is there anything from your perspective that you feel like is not getting the attention or focus? That is going to either be a big story in a few years or is a big story now, just isn't getting the airtime it deserves?
Speaker 3:I don't know if this isn't getting the airtime it deserves, but I think it's something that's come up in conversations I've had the last couple of weeks and it's kind of down the pipeline effects these tariffs could have. We talked a little bit in this story I think I mentioned Lauren's story about colored gemstones and tariffs. She talked a little bit about this, like the effects if gemstone sales drop because the prices are high, the effects this is going to have on small communities that really depend on mining. I think there's also a thing about you think about a country like Botswana, which is, you know diamonds are huge for their economy and you know De Beers just signed this new sales agreement with them and as part of that sales agreement there's something called the Diamonds for Development Fund and a big piece of that is establishing more beneficiation in Botswana, more cutting, more polishing. So taking the rough out of the ground in Botswana and cutting them, polishing the diamonds there and just making it one stop, not sending them to another country to be cut.
Speaker 3:But if tariffs are higher in Botswana than they are where the diamonds are being cut, that's going to be a problem and the industry for years has been, you know, talking about beneficiation, working on creating beneficiation, working on, you know, making sure the communities where gemstones and diamonds are mined are benefiting from them, and the tariffs just kind of they're going to impact that. And I also think about, you know, we actually had just had this discussion with a group of jewelers and I think I can't remember who brought it up, but I think it was a great point. You know, the industry has really in recent years, like so many other industries, really worked on supply chain transparency and being able to say, hey, I got this here and it came from here and it came from there, and being able to trace it back. And you know that's something that people now this is always said that younger consumers care about this.
Speaker 3:If you talk to jewelers, there's kind of a mixed response about this, like how many people actually come in and ask where things are from? But the industry different facets of the industry have really put a lot of time into this. But of the industry have really put a lot of time into this. But if you have these tariffs and it's gonna end up costing you more if it comes from X place than if it comes from X place, I think you're gonna see a lot of people kind of trying to skirt around transparency just to save money.
Speaker 3:And I think that's a real shame because we've worked so hard and so many people have worked so hard and put so much time and money into making transparent supply chains in a traditionally opaque industry, to be honest. And how's that going to go now?
Speaker 3:Yeah it's one of those things of the shock of like. You know, we had this relationship with Alrosa and Russian Diamonds and they put Alrosa to its credit, but so much time and money and being in leadership and responsible sourcing and transparency and then overnight that was gone and I kind of feel like that was one big blow for the diamond industry and this, you know, this is about to be another for jewelry, kind of like in the broader sense. But that's something I think is something to watch and something that'll be interesting to keep an eye on.
Speaker 1:There's so many communities and even entire nations built on, yeah, specific, rare, rare minerals, not just using jewelry but also using manufacturing. And you know the fact that transparency for a long time was kind of I don't want to say like kind of like relatively agnostic when it came to the value and like the dollars of it all. It seemed like it was like, you know, if you're interested in it and if it was of value to you, then it is important. But, like you had mentioned, there are parts of the world where people don't really seem to put as much care and credence into that kind of thing. However, if there's dollars to be won by obfuscating transparency, you know and, and, and and, not showing all that information, I can see how people will be taking advantage of that.
Speaker 3:And if times get tough, if sales are down, margins are slimmer, prices are going up, like I mean I don't like again, I don't know exactly what's going to happen with the tariffs, but this is something somebody raised this point, and I think it's a really good one.
Speaker 1:It is really interesting. Michelle, that's a fascinating topic and it will be one that I'm going to have to follow up on as well. If people are interested in learning more about National Jeweler and maybe getting their news delivered to their inbox, where should they be going? Where can they learn more?
Speaker 3:So if you go to nationaljewelercom that is our website On the top rail, on the far right there is subscribe in red and you can pick if you want to get information about our, if you want to get our daily newsletter and information about our webinars, or if you just want to get one thing, if you just want to get the newsletters and not the webinars, or just information about the webinars and not the newsletter, you can pick and there's just a little form there. You fill out and, like I have already given myself away, if you click my name on the website, you can email me.
Speaker 1:Well, michelle, thank you so much for your time. This is a very exciting interview for me. I've, uh, I'm definitely a big fan of your work and, uh, the work of National Jeweler. It's something I follow. I, like I mentioned, I uh I take as many of those fun uh tidbits and I bring them up to our all hands each week and see if I can wow everybody with my knowledge about the current state of jewelry. So I really appreciate you for that as well. Thank you so much, everybody. We'll be back next week, tuesday, with another episode. Cheers, bye.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, bye-bye.
Speaker 1:All right, everybody. That's the end of the show. Thanks so much for listening. My guest this week was Michelle Graff, the editor-in-chief at National Jeweler. She was fantastic. I really enjoyed speaking with her. This episode was brought to you by Punchmark and produced and hosted by me, michael Burpo. This episode was edited by Paul Suarez with music by Ross Cockrum. Don't forget to rate the podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts and leave us feedback on punchmarkcom slash loop. That's L-O-U-P-E. Thanks, and we'll be back next week, tuesday, with another episode. Cheers, bye.
