284: How Can Music Transform Early Childhood Education? With Red Grammer

You’re in for a treat with this episode of "Child Care Conversations"! Kate and Carrie sit down with Red Grammer, beloved children’s musician, to chat about how his uplifting songs—like those from his new album "Hooray for the World" help kids learn kindness, express themselves, and even burn off extra energy. 

The conversation feels like old friends swapping stories, full of practical tips for bringing more music and joy into your classroom. If you’re looking for ways to make your center a happier, more connected place, this episode is a must-listen! 

Learn more about our guest at https://redgrammer.com/

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Transcript

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Marie 00:00:03  Welcome to Child Care Conversations, the podcast where early childhood leaders like you get real world strategies, honest talk and a whole lot of support. Whether you're running one center or many. We're here to help you lead with confidence and clarity. This episode is brought to you by this quarter's sponsor, playground. The all in one child care management software. We're all about managing monkeys and saving you time at your center. With this platform, you can. We're proud to partner with a team that's as committed to your success as we are. Learn more at Try Playground. Now let's get into today's conversation. One we think you're really going to love.

Carrie 00:00:49  Okay, guys. So today we have a guest that is kind of an icon, at least in my opinion. Red Grammer, who created an album that has been called by People Who Aren't me. Other people in the world. The best children's music album ever. And that's an album called Teaching Peace. And if you don't have it at your center or your program, you should, because it has so many great songs and helps to get those wiggles out for those kids when they need to.

Carrie 00:01:22  There are songs that are great for marching and songs that are great for being silly. but that's just one of his many accomplishments. He's got lots of albums, he's got some Grammy nominations, and I think. Didn't you win one?

Red 00:01:39  No. It was it was a nomination. We did. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Carrie 00:01:43  But so. So should we call you Red or Mr. Grammar.

Red 00:01:49  Red for sure.

Carrie 00:01:50  Okay, so I've seen red, a couple of times performing live, doing different kinds of music. So let's talk a little bit about how you went from being pre-med to a musician, and then why you went from doing folk music into children's music.

Red 00:02:13  Yeah. so basically, I grew up in a family that didn't have any professional musicians in it, like most. Right, right. And so growing up with music being a big part of my life, the center of my life, it never occurred to me that you could do that for work.

Kate 00:02:33  And I mean, enjoy what? Wait wait wait wait.

Kate 00:02:36  You mean enjoy what you're doing? Yes. And get paid for it. I'm just trying to make sure that that's really what you're trying to say.

Red 00:02:42  Right, exactly. And for. For all the early childhood people. You know what I'm talking about. Where you follow your heart and the rest of the world may not appreciate or understand or value it the way you do. but that was kind of a situation where I just didn't have any context for being a musician in the in as an adult. So I just grew up loving music. It was everything about me. But, you know, I kind of said, okay, well, you know, when I grow up, I'll be a doctor because they help people.

Carrie 00:03:15  Yeah, right.

Red 00:03:18  and so at the last minute, I was, I was supposed to go to Rutgers University of New Jersey, has a good pre-med program. I was accepted, I went to Rutgers, but changed to a music major at the last minute. And no one was surprised, you know.

Carrie 00:03:33  Except you probably.

Red 00:03:35  Except me. and of course, I was totally unprepared. I was not fluent on the piano. I anyway, you don't have to go through that whole nine yards, but, So so that's. It was a cover, I guess. You know, it was a safe zone of what I thought I might be as an adult. And then I ended up in the the real world of of music and was a singer songwriter. Sort of saw myself being, you know, an adult performer, maybe. Kenny Loggins, Dan Fogelberg for people who.

Kate 00:04:07  Write.

Red 00:04:08  We know that era. and pursued that and then got involved with an old folk, a very famous old folk group. They were my parents age, the limelight, and they needed a replacement for their lead singer, Glenn Yarborough. And so that was a wonderful opportunity. I took it at the same time. Kathy and I were starting a family, my late wife Kathy and I, and we had our two boys and we were writing songs around the house for them and there wasn't enough money.

Red 00:04:38  So she said, well, why don't we make a little cassette of the songs we're writing for Dave and Andy and and so I said, okay, so we wrote some more and we did a little cassette and I would sell it at the limelight gigs. And then, and then teaching Piece happened, which was really inspired by a wonderful statement called The Promise of World Peace. And we just went through and looked at the, at the various,

Carrie 00:05:03  Elements of.

Carrie 00:05:04  That.

Red 00:05:05  Of that and tried to write songs about them that were fun and interesting. And so teaching peace happen, and that shifted everything. And, and I found myself exactly where I should be with music.

Carrie 00:05:16  I mean, I think we can definitely say that that was a bit of divine inspiration. I want to give people who are, you know, younger than us a little bit of a framework that might work for people. As far as you stepping into the limelight. so there was this other band called Queen, and they had a famous lead singer and he wasn't around anymore.

Carrie 00:05:37  And so a guy named Adam Lambert came in and stepped in. So it's kind of like that to get a little bit more recent.

Carrie 00:05:46  In the folk just world. Yes, but it is.

Carrie 00:05:50  I mean, it's that same type of thing. They needed somebody with a specific vocal quality.

Carrie 00:05:56  Yes.

Carrie 00:05:56  That you had.

Red 00:05:57  Yes. And actually, I remember we did a Showtime special and they they had me in the audience, you know, sitting at a table with audience members, you know, and, and people at the, at the table said, you know, what are you what are you here for? And I said, well, you know, I replaced Glenn Yarbrough in the limelight and the table goes silent, you know, and one of them guys, one of the guys looks over, says, I hope you're good, you know. So there was that replacement thing. And then afterwards he actually fought his way back past security and everything so he could come to me and say, you were fabulous.

Red 00:06:29  I'm so sorry. I hope I didn't embarrass you or whatever, you know? But anyway, so that's a whole, you know, but we found children's music, which for me is perfect because I'm actually a very earnest and a very silly person.

Carrie 00:06:43  Yeah.

Red 00:06:43  Which is a funny combination, which I think you'll find in a lot of early childhood people.

Carrie 00:06:48  Yeah. I mean, I definitely.

Carrie 00:06:50  Comes across when you see you like performing live.

Carrie 00:06:53  Right?

Carrie 00:06:54  The silly definitely comes through.

Red 00:06:56  Silly comes through, and the earnest and and as an adult performer, it's a little hard to find that space. I'm sure there's a way. But for me, you know, doing family music has been, you know, a real gift to me.

Carrie 00:07:09  So and, and you're able to teach your values through music and values that most people hope that kids have.

Red 00:07:17  Yes, yes. And hopefully in a way that's that feels completely natural.

Carrie 00:07:23  Absolutely.

Red 00:07:23  They're not overlays. That's the one thing Kathy and I always really tried to do.

Red 00:07:28  And I, you know, continue to try and do after her passing, but, you know, is these are not something you impose. These are natural attributes that just need to be nurtured, choices that we have.

Carrie 00:07:40  And yeah.

Red 00:07:41  And so if you make it feel like this is what we do, this is just how we are. We care. We're thoughtful, we look out for each other. You know, we're careful with the words we use. you know, we want things to work out for everybody. You know, that's just how we are. And so if you write songs that are fun and interesting and delightful, then that's just it helps create that. Or it helps nurture and sustain that kind of environment when there's a lot of other forces in the world, of course, that we're all dealing with that.

Carrie 00:08:11  Are.

Red 00:08:12  That. Yeah.

Kate 00:08:14  No.

Carrie 00:08:17  So over the years, how have you seen teachers use your music to reinforce character education in the classroom? And how did you guys do it with your boys, one of whom kind of picked up a guitar later on also.

Red 00:08:32  Yeah. Yeah. you know, I think one of the things that people have found very valuable about our music, is that there are a number of songs that just give you a one line that becomes a, a kind of a touch point. So like the song Use a Word, it was all about using words instead of fists or, you know, whatever. And it's the course, you know, it's the last line of the chorus, use a word. And so once you know the whole song and the kids all know the whole song, and it's got little jokes in it and everything, then you when something's happened, you just say, use a word, right? And that's a one line thing or shake your brain. You know, when somebody's got a problem, they're confused. They don't have an answer. And it's frustrating, right? Well, shake your brains, figure it out. There's no need to scream or shout. You gotta work that thing you've got upstairs. You've got to activate what's under your hair, you know? And then you.

Carrie 00:09:30  Just shake your brain.

Red 00:09:32  You know? Yeah. So I think those are those have been really helpful. and then just the nature of music and words that are constructed to support the best in us. I have a little video I can't show to you right now, but I see it all the time, but I actually have a video of it happening where I'm singing I think you're wonderful.

Carrie 00:09:56  Oh, I.

Carrie 00:09:56  Love that song. Kindergarteners.

Red 00:09:59  We're on stage, you know, and they're singing it with me. And this one, it's actually in Macau where this happens, and this one little boy goes over and puts his arm around the other boy, and they're just standing there like that. So when you have a song that just. It's the mystery of the power of music. I mean, why do, do children sitting in a circle when I sing? I think you're wonderful. Put their arms around each other. They're nice. The lyric is sweet. I mean, the music is sweet. It has a.

Red 00:10:30  But something magical happens where they just are impelled to do that. And that's why I actually do a whole workshop called Music Every Teacher's Best Friend.

Carrie 00:10:42  All right.

Kate 00:10:43  I am so glad that you said that, because I have a question for you.

Carrie 00:10:46  Yes, yes.

Kate 00:10:47  So the majority of the people who listen to our podcast are actually the directors, and I have actually been in childcare centres recently that have almost no music, and it breaks my heart. And, you know, how would a director who maybe understands conceptually the importance of music, what is a way that maybe they can bring it to either their ownership, their administration, even maybe their teachers to kind of get them on board, even if it's just for certain times of the day, other than using it as transition, like giving it a purpose other than it's our transition role.

Red 00:11:29  Yeah. You know, I mean, I always I was I talked to the directors at times. I always talked to the teachers. I say, you know, your classroom is your garden, you know.

Red 00:11:40  And so the first thing that a director can do is support teachers who want to use music and not stick your head in, And actually for an early childhood, I'm surprised that anybody would do that, you know, because it would seem like such a natural element of what we're doing.

Carrie 00:11:57  I think, first of all, I. I'm sorry.

Carrie 00:12:00  I think they're trying to keep out objectionable lyrics from the classroom.

Carrie 00:12:04  Oh, interesting.

Carrie 00:12:05  And they're like, you can't have music because I don't want to have to be paying attention to your playlist.

Red 00:12:11  Yeah, well, of course, then the first thing you could do is create a library for your teachers to become, you know, comfortable with. And and by the way, there's a there's room for teachers choosing music that speaks to their need, hopefully appropriate music. But you know, because we find ourselves getting out out of our zone and sometimes we have music that really helps us line up, you know, whatever that is. And so it's okay to show kids that you have a way to, to handle that, to manage that.

Red 00:12:44  But that's a whole other thing. First, Having music that is age appropriate and that supports the kind of environment of caring and loving and thoughtfulness that you want to have in your classroom. And there's plenty of it. I mean, I'm not the only person doing it. I like to think, you know, mine is especially wonderful. But, you know, there are other artists and there's diverse music now that does it.

Carrie 00:13:12  Yeah, because for a while it was like you and, the guy who did Willoughby Wallaby woo.

Carrie 00:13:20  Yeah.

Carrie 00:13:21  and then Ella Jenkins and it was pretty much.

Red 00:13:24  You know, and you know, you know, but but now you've got a lot of diversity that's doing really wonderful stuff for kids. It's, it's got more juice in terms of, you know, the, the track maybe way more intense than, you know, I would do. But the lyrics are wonderful, you know, so there's a lot of diversity out there. But the first thing I would do I mean I Honestly, Kate, I can't imagine a program without music.

Carrie 00:13:50  Oh.

Kate 00:13:51  There are. There are. We've been to actually several programs, but because they're so focused on the academics. The only time you hear the music is actually during transition. Yeah. And that's what they view. They view it as a tool instead of anything else. Like it's just to help move the kids from point A to point B. And when I asked the one program, the last program, the response I got was it's not in our curriculum. And I was like, so it has to be in the curriculum. Like in this particular program, the teachers felt very confined to their curriculum instead of the directors. And so that's why I asked you the question the way.

Carrie 00:14:32  I.

Kate 00:14:32  Did, because I know that. And what we can include in the show notes of Kyrie reminds me to make sure that we get some from both you and Kerry, but some resources that actually, you know, can support, you know, the research on it because we know it exists. Right. That the the whole research on, you know, music and and and the arts in general.

Kate 00:14:52  Right. Because that's why we fight it at every, every age level academically. So, you know, having the director be able to have a tool that if they have teachers who want it. I love the idea of supporting the teachers. That's obviously I should say that it should be obvious and it's obvious to us, but it's probably not necessarily obvious to the directors who don't know how to support a teacher who wants to do something that might be contradictory to their.

Carrie 00:15:21  Or maybe.

Kate 00:15:22  Their franchise.

Carrie 00:15:23  Or it might be additive. It might be them adding something else to what the franchise, or the, the school district or whatever says we're doing. You can do what they say, and you can also be playing, use a word in the background as the kids are, you know that this is a time of day when kids get kind of grumpy because it's right before snack time and.

Carrie 00:15:50  Kids are getting.

Carrie 00:15:50  Grumpy and playing. You use a word in the background, maybe help to prime them. This is when we're going to need to use those words.

Red 00:16:00  There's another thing that music does, and let's say this might be this might be something that actually speaks to a person who doesn't necessarily understand the the value of music is what it can do to make a connection between the parents and the school. So, for example, the song See Me Beautiful, if you take pictures of all the kids in the class and create a PowerPoint with that song playing in the background, should I be saying playing little pieces of these songs for people so that they understand what I'm talking about? Let me just do a verse of it.

Carrie 00:16:33  Absolutely. I will always take you.

Carrie 00:16:36  Okay. You can edit.

Red 00:16:37  Whatever you want, you know. But but if you have this playing in the background and you see the kids pictures of the kids in a in an open house.

Red 00:16:48  See me beautiful. Look for the best in me. It's what I really am. And all I want to be. It may take some time. It may be hard to find. But see me beautiful.

Red 00:17:08  See me beautiful each and every day. Could you take a chance? Could you find a way to see me shining through. In everything I do and see me beauty. For so.

Red 00:17:28  You. You know you have the.

Red 00:17:29  Images of the kids.

Red 00:17:30  While that's going by. It can. It creates a connection for the parents with the school. And they see that you see their children in a deeper way than just teaching them. you know, the beginnings of math and and and language and all those things which are very, you know, important in their place. so and there's lots of other songs, you know, I've had little kids learn.

Red 00:17:55  I.

Red 00:17:55  Did it on the today show with the today shows. the producer's son came on. He was he was four, and he sang this with me.

Red 00:18:03  I think you're a one grade eight, beloved and beautiful, capable, caring. Delightful. Dependable. Enjoyable. Excellent. Fascinating. Fabulous, a gift, a gem. Genuinely generous, honest, high grade, impressive and interesting a jewel, a jackpot.

Red 00:18:22  Kind hearted and a king. Laudable, likeable. Marvelous. Magnificent. Naturally nice.

Red 00:18:29  And you know. And on and on. So, you know, these, these kind of songs. Well, I mean, I must say, maybe I shouldn't say for those people that are really having to deal with a program where they really want academics for preschool children to be like the main thing.

Carrie 00:18:47  I think even in those programs, they want connection.

Carrie 00:18:50  To.

Carrie 00:18:51  Be the main thing, because kids can't learn without connections. You gotta have connections so that the kids can learn, whether you're doing it through a play based program or whether through an academic program, you've got to have the connection first.

Red 00:19:03  Thank you. Thank you. It's a good, you know, because for me, that age is first about relationships and trust and open heartedness and learning how to be with other people. And of course, it's easy to do the the letters and the numbers and the, you know, the, the kindergarten readiness and, you know, all that, all of that.

Red 00:19:28  but sometimes I do think just in general, we are sacrificing a lot of, you know, what the first stuff that we need to learn, you know, because we're afraid that, you know, our kids are going to fall behind or something, which all the studies show. That's not true either. So anyway.

Carrie 00:19:47  Okay, I agree with you.

Carrie 00:19:49  I have two more questions in my notes. I don't usually take notes, so I was so excited to talk to you. I have to have notes.

Carrie 00:19:56  Yes.

Carrie 00:19:57  So you get invited to a lot of educational conferences. Right. So what are you noticing right now? The teachers, the directors, the educators are really hungry for in those sessions with you?

Red 00:20:15  well, for for in the classroom, you know, they I don't think it's changed that much. they want to know how to, Well, you know, there's a couple of ways to say it. They want to know how to reach every child, and they've. Depending on where you are.

Red 00:20:35  They can it can be a very diverse classroom, or they can be very diverse from where you are coming from, you know. so but and of course, you know, how to create that environment where everybody's can can learn. You know, the kids are coming in pumped up with a lot of, you know, the entertainment for kids is generally pretty intense and crazy and, and, Yeah. It's a good question. yeah.

Carrie 00:21:07  I mean, I think that's a good answer. They're looking for how to connect to all those kids, the kids who have more needs or different needs than you were expecting and come from a different background. I mean, even just because they're 20, 30 years younger than you, they come from a different background.

Carrie 00:21:23  Yes.

Red 00:21:24  Yeah. And gosh, has the world changed.

Carrie 00:21:27  A little bit? Yeah. Yeah.

Red 00:21:28  Holy moly. Can I just I just want to say something to. Because you said there's most of your directors.

Carrie 00:21:34  Correct? Yep.

Red 00:21:35  I want to I don't want to say this to them.

Red 00:21:37  And and also about their teachers. That ultimately, for me, these are heroic positions because most of the world doesn't get what we're doing with little children. It's really soul work of the profoundest type, you know, trying to see what a child, who a child is, what their needs are. What what were they meant to become? Not that we can see all that when they're that little. But nurturing that, supporting that. that's powerful, powerful work. And most of the world doesn't see it, but those working in it. We need we need to support them in, in that work. yeah. Anyway, I just needed to say that.

Carrie 00:22:22  I mean, I we couldn't agree more. We couldn't agree more. so now it feels like a little bit weird to take the next question, but I'm going there anyway.

Carrie 00:22:32  Okay.

Carrie 00:22:32  What are the things that you're the most proud of right now?

Red 00:22:38  can I say two things?

Carrie 00:22:40  I said things. So you can as long as.

Carrie 00:22:42  You know you can say a couple of things.

Carrie 00:22:44  Okay. First of all.

Red 00:22:46  That just has been so is so confirming even now that all of this work that I've done all these years has been used so magnificently by so many teachers to do the work that it was intended to do, which is to support the best in children and help them feel that doing the right thing is the natural thing to do, because that's who we are. Right. So to know that that work and that comes in the form of adults coming up to me and saying, you were in my, you know, my life when I was a little or my child right now, you know, those kind of things. and then I just this new album, I'm so proud of the songs on this album. It's it's called hooray for the world is on teaching peace. We did an updated version and all the all the other songs are new. It just seemed like the perfect title for an album about connecting with the, you know, the natural world and their fun, delightful songs.

Red 00:23:44  It's. Yeah, it's it's a it was an accomplishment and they're clever and fun and kids love the songs, so I'm just really proud of that. which was just released in January. So that's a brand new thing.

Kate 00:23:59  All right. So Kerry, real quick, how long how did you find Red? And I know you have your own connection, but as a director, I'm going to put you on the spot as a director or when you were an owner. Why was this something that was in your playbook that you thought was something that needed to be part of curriculum, not just transition material?

Carrie 00:24:24  Because kids need opportunity to see that adults have joy, too. It's nothing else. a lot of times kids see adults as these very stodgy, stiff kind of people. And it's really hard to be that stodgy, stiff kind of person when you're marching around the classroom singing teaching piece or, trying to you have a part in Hello World that's very fast and watching people try to do that or, I think there's another one that also has.

Carrie 00:24:59  Oh, you sang it earlier, the one,

Carrie 00:25:02  About.

Red 00:25:03  The ABCs of you.

Carrie 00:25:04  Yeah, yeah.

Carrie 00:25:05  That one also has some really fast parts. And so part of the reason I think it's important is for my teachers to have fun and be joyous and silly in the classroom, and for the kids to be able to do that as well. If the only music you're listening to is Disney Kid Bop in a classroom, then you're limiting it to things that they already have a picture in their head about. But these are songs that they don't already have, a picture they get to put themselves in the music, you have to put their classmates in the music. it helps to get wiggles out, because there are times in the day when it's not time for physical activity, but the children's bodies say it's time for physical activity, and if their bodies say it is, then we need to be able to, like go to a playlist or go to a CD. I know CDs are old fashioned, but guys, they work because you can always find the right song.

Carrie 00:26:02  It's a tape.

Carrie 00:26:04  Deck or a.

Carrie 00:26:05  Record player.

Carrie 00:26:06  Or even a playlist, because sometimes you think you're going to the playlist and somebody else has the same title of a song, and it means something.

Carrie 00:26:15  Totally.

Carrie 00:26:16  Different. So I'm a fan of still having some CDs and a CD player in the classroom, because when the kids bodies say it's time to move, even though your lesson plan does not. You've got to have some of these songs that you can just put in. And kids learn things differently through rhythmic language than they do through standard language. And songs, by their very nature, are rhythmic language. So that's why we used to do, you know, poems and nursery rhymes and songs so much. And kids had a bigger vocabulary because they were hearing rhythmic language more. So if you want kids to have a big vocabulary, put on some great children's music and the kids are going to learn more language. So I think that was about five reasons.

Kate 00:27:11  Well, I appreciate all of the reasons.

Kate 00:27:13  And in today's show, notes will have links to Red's new album, but also his old albums, because Carrie is definitely going to want some of those classics in there and other ways where you can get a hold of red for any upcoming conferences that you might have. Staff development, all of that kind of information will be in today's show notes. And if you have not already subscribed to our podcast, we'd love for you to subscribe, maybe even leave a review. And with that, we look forward to seeing you on our next episode.

Marie 00:27:50  Thanks for tuning in. We love bringing you real talk and fresh insight from the world of early childhood education. Be sure to follow us on social media to stay connected and catch all of the latest episodes. And if you're planning a conference, training, or special event. Kate and Kerry would love to speak to your audience. You can learn more about their keynote sessions and workshops at Kate and Carrico. If you learned something today, share the show and leave us a review below.

Marie 00:28:21  We'll see you next time on Child Care Conversations.