Carrie Casey (00:47)
Hey guys, so we're here ⁓ to talk to you about what we have learned in our, I don't remember how many thousands of miles we've done so far this year. How many? Kate says 7,000 miles. ⁓ 7,000, okay. Anyway, what we've learned going to conferences, going to centers, doing executive retreats over the past several months. I'm gonna say the spring, summer.
Kate Young (00:59)
this year? No, that was just last month.
Carrie Casey (01:16)
and I guess now we're in the beginning of winter in some parts of the country. I'm in Texas, we don't have winter until January. And sometimes not even until February, but I know for some of you, you're already having winter. ⁓ So we've been hearing a lot and so we wanna talk to you about it.
Kate Young (01:34)
So one of the things that right now seems to be a huge issue, so in the last few months has been a lot of people talking about staffing, where to find them, how to find them, why they don't stick, and they're getting overwhelmed.
Carrie Casey (01:49)
why they're
calling out so much. There's a lot about that. In the spring, it was a lot of concern about universal pre-K and what was happening with that and how that was gonna affect enrollment. And now it's very much about staff calling out and staff not being motivated.
Kate Young (02:09)
Well, even finding staff, like we're still hearing folks having a hard time finding staff. And as a result, the directors, y'all, are being totally overwhelmed with all the other things that you're having to do now because you have all their jobs or you're having other staff's jobs that you have to do because those staff are helping pick up other roles.
Carrie Casey (02:28)
Yeah.
And so if you're having to cover classrooms or you're having to do ⁓ tasks that your lead teachers were doing because they could, because they had a well-functioning classroom and they could take on handling the ordering of supplies or stuff like that, when you've got a lot of staff turnover, you've got more work as an admin because people are stressed.
They're not able ⁓ to do all of their normal duties and you're having to interview, hire, onboard, train and manage personality conflicts because you've added new persons to your program.
Kate Young (03:12)
or maybe you've lost new persons. So I think we heard a lot about that too. ⁓ So if you're listening and some of this is resonating, it's okay. Basically we wanna make sure you know you're not alone. And I think one of the things that's really important to understand is, Carrie, you've been in childcare for pretty much your entire life, except for four years. And...
Did you ever actually have a class on how to manage staff or how to have staff?
Carrie Casey (03:43)
I not really. I grew up with ⁓ my mom running a business, I learned a lot about what to and what not to do in managing staff by watching my mom because she had some management experience before I was born, but she had a lot during my growing up years, and I learned a lot from her.
Kate Young (04:08)
Okay, but you have a degree in early childcare and in Texas and in a lot of states, that means that you're qualified to be a director. You don't have specific training on how to hire and manage staff.
Carrie Casey (04:21)
No, I've paid for many a subscription, many a workshop, a two month long class on this thing or that thing of Fair Labor Standards Act or ⁓ whatever federal or state law. I've been on newsletters for the workforce board in my ⁓ state, the Texas Workforce Commission, so that's for employers so that
you're getting educated every month. I've done.
Kate Young (04:53)
Do they have something
like that in other states?
Carrie Casey (04:56)
Most states have something like that. And there's another one from the federal ⁓ labor board. So, and every country probably has these as well. So our listeners in Singapore and Germany, know, these apply other places as well. And it is a shame that I have not been able to find a single college course in any university in the English speaking world on HR in childcare.
And if you found one at a university, please send it to me because I want to take that class. But not a single one have I been able to find. And I've looked in multiple countries to try to find a class on managing your staff at the college level, like a college level class on managing your staff in childcare, because we have a unique workforce and we have unique.
challenges and stresses on our workforce because they're in caregiving roles all the time, just like nurses or doctors or psychologists or, you know, elementary school teachers. But there aren't classes in how to manage that workforce. And it's very frustrating.
Kate Young (06:13)
Yeah, I mean, the other thing that I think that's really interesting is that as most directors and owners, unless you've got three or more locations, you probably haven't hired a designated HR person. And even if you have, do you know that there's actually a society for human resource managers? There's also certifications, ⁓ entry level and upper level certifications for that industry. So...
Yes, you can go learn. You can go take courses, workshops, even from HR specific industries. And, you know, in a lot of states, those clock hours actually will work to your benefit. So don't rule them out. But like Carrie said, as an industry, there's things that we just have to think about. ⁓ One of the things we had a discussion with somebody just the other day related to ⁓
young folks, so folks maybe under 21 entering into the childcare industry who might've come from maybe even straight from high school or college where they had IEP accommodations and not understanding in management that IEP, school-based accommodations are not the same as ⁓ reasonable accommodations in a job setting.
Carrie Casey (07:38)
Yeah, mean, here's the thing. We have more knowledge about how the human brain works today than we had 20 years ago, heck, than we had two years ago. And so when somebody's brain works a different way, you can't manage them the same way that you would manage somebody who has a quote unquote typical brain. And there's the whole, if more than 50 %
Kate Young (08:04)
What is typical
anymore?
Carrie Casey (08:07)
Yeah, if more than 50 %
of the population has some sort of diagnosis about the way their brain works, then what we call typical is no longer typical. So the neuro-atypical is now the typical. But the thing is, is if somebody comes to you and they're like, hey, ⁓ I have severe anxiety. First, the question is, when do they need to tell you that for you to be able to make a reasonable accommodation?
Do they tell you at the time of application? No. They don't need to tell you at the time of application. Do they have to tell you at the time you offer them the job? No, but that is a time that they can tell you and they still have legal protection. Can they tell you at the time of onboarding? That is the ideal time for them to tell you so that both of you have the maximum protection under law, right?
is you've offered a job, they've accepted the job, cool, now we're doing onboarding and negotiation about salary and hours and stuff like that. And then they say, I have severe anxiety and because of that, I need these accommodations. Here's what I had in high school or here's what I had in college. And then the owner or the director or the HR person has to go, okay, I get that. But that was in a building.
where there were literally hundreds of people available to help you with your needs. And in this situation, the only person who is here to help you with your needs is yourself. And so we have to figure out what is reasonable for our organization to be able to do to support you with your anxiety. So is it that in your classroom, you don't use the overhead lights, you have a lot of lamps?
and that helps you with your anxiety because the whining noise of the fluorescent lights is a problem? Or is it that you're not the opener or the closer because being in a building by yourself makes you really, really anxious? That's a reasonable accommodation.
Kate Young (10:22)
Okay, so wait, wait. So that's
a great point, but that brings up a question I have. So if you've hired them to be an opener or a closer, or you've hired them to be a lead teacher, I mean, what is your response, especially if they knew this coming into the job application? So as an employer, as a director, if you're listening to this and this has happened to you, now it's different if it's a new diagnosis. So we'll talk, we can talk about that maybe another episode or something.
always hashtag I'm not a lawyer, right? So we are not, we are not employment lawyers. So if you ever have a question, make sure you do that. So Carrie, if you have hired them for a specific role and you and I know that best practices in your job descriptions, it says things like must be able to see and hear the kids at all time, must be able to comply with.
state and federal regulations in this industry. So those are two things that if you don't already have them in all your job descriptions, and lifting children, you know, so.
Carrie Casey (11:23)
lift
and carrying children of whatever weight it is that you may have to lift and carry children at your
Kate Young (11:28)
And I remember
at one point in time, because we had somebody who had this issue with their staff, also, although a lot of states don't require it, we also encouraged at one time folks to even possibly, depending on your program, ⁓ having people have to have a ⁓ doctor, an evaluation that basically they physically and mentally can do the job.
Carrie Casey (11:48)
Basically a healthy enough,
yeah, healthy enough to work in childcare. Just like you have for the kids, a note from the doctor saying that this child is healthy enough to be in group care, a note from a doctor saying that this employee is healthy enough to be in group care. ⁓
Kate Young (12:05)
Now you can't
pick and choose. You have to do that with everybody. So if you decide, and in that particular program I know that there was some issues with who they could find in the community to hire, like who their hiring base was. And so they were looking at a fair amount of folks who had been retired. And so they were a little concerned and I went, well, you can add this to your job description and into the hiring requirements, but then you have to do it for also.
For that 20 year old, you can't just make it something that you have the 60 year old do.
Carrie Casey (12:36)
And you can offer to pay for that physical. So you can have a mid-level provider, so a nurse practitioner or a physician's assistant who you have a contract with who will do physicals for on incoming ⁓ employees. Yeah, basically camp physicals. And I think that's helpful. ⁓ I used that if somebody was out of work for more than three days.
Kate Young (12:52)
camp physicals!
Carrie Casey (13:03)
I wanted them to have a note from a doctor saying they could come back in. And by any time they were out of work for three days. So you gave birth to a child, you were out of work for more than three days, mostly, most people. And then I needed a note from a doctor. You said you had kidney stones and you were out for three days. I need a note from a doctor. I'm not gonna verify whether or not you had kidney stones. You could have been having a...
You could have been going to Acapulco for those three days, but if you went to Acapulco for three days, I now need a doctor's note saying you're healthy enough to come back to work and it laying out what that meant psychologically and physically. So I think that's sometimes helpful, but if we're looking at reasonable accommodations,
It has to be something that is reasonable. Like, if your playground is completely covered in pea gravel,
Kate Young (14:01)
Okay, hold on. I'm not sure that did we did we answer the actual question that I threw at you, which is what happens if you've hired them for a specific role and now they need accommodations outside of that
Carrie Casey (14:12)
So that's why you have to have that conversation at onboarding. And when you're negotiating their hours and their pay rate and their responsibilities. Because if they're an opener and they're too, if they're an opener and they're too anxious to be in the building by themselves, then they cannot be hired for that position.
Kate Young (14:21)
So which.
Okay, so I usually think of onboarding as the onboarding training, but what you're talking about I think is more the day you make an offer. that, okay, all right, I'm just making sure that we.
Carrie Casey (14:38)
Yes. It's
the first step of onboarding because you're negotiating the agreement, negotiating the agreement of employment. ⁓ And if they don't tell you at that
Kate Young (14:51)
So you're hoping
that people are negotiating and not just saying you have the job, right?
Carrie Casey (14:57)
Yes,
I am. But if you just tell them they have the job and they say great and they don't say anything about the anxiety, you don't have any reason to have to make an accommodation because they didn't tell you nothing. If it's six weeks in and then they tell you that they have anxiety and that they have, and you say, well, when did you get this anxiety disorder? And they say 1997, then you say, I'm sorry.
You did not disclose this at the time we were setting this up and so we're gonna need some time to figure out what a reasonable accommodation is and so if you can't be an opener right now, I'm gonna have to hire another one and I'm gonna have to put you on temporary leave until we figure it out. And that is a reasonable thing to do is to put somebody on temporary leave while you figure out how to make a reasonable accommodation.
Kate Young (15:50)
Now.
Carrie Casey (15:50)
A temporary leave
does not mean six weeks though. We're talking like a week and you don't have to pay them during that.
Kate Young (15:55)
Okay,
but here's a question. I you hired them, I mean, ⁓ my devil's advocate component here is I hired you for a role and now you're telling me you can't do it. What if I don't need them for the other stuff? Do I have to keep them?
Carrie Casey (16:11)
Consult an attorney. My answer would be consult an attorney. My reading of the law says if they cannot do the job they were hired for and there is not a similar, a job with similar skill level in your business, then maybe they cannot work for you. But that's my reading of the law and I'm not a lawyer. So talk to a lawyer.
Kate Young (16:13)
Okay. So, so. ⁓
Carrie Casey (16:36)
And that's part of what you can do in that week and say, I need to consult some people about what is a reasonable accommodation. And it can be a lawyer and it can be your state workforce board. Talk to your state labor board, workforce board, whatever it's called in your area and say, I have this situation. The person was diagnosed almost 30 years ago and they didn't tell me at the time of hire, at the time we went over the job duties, they didn't tell me for six weeks into the job.
what do I do now, get that advice from an outside expert on how to handle it. And this is just one element of HR that people are dealing with. And because this is one element of hundreds, Kate and I have done a thing. So we made a master class.
Kate Young (17:11)
Absolutely.
Carrie Casey (17:31)
and a mastermind on HR issues. And you can go straight into the mastermind if you want to, which is, you know, a three month commitment to work with us at least twice every month, going over your HR issues with other owners and directors ⁓ across the country. So you can go straight there. Or if you're like, I don't know if I need that, you can come to our mastermind that we've got coming up.
Kate Young (18:01)
So yeah, so the mastermind is next Thursday. So it is November 13th. In the show notes is the registration code. You can also go to childcarecoach.org and register for the masterclass that's coming up because we want you to be prepared. It is not your fault.
Carrie Casey (18:01)
And either one of those is right.
Kate Young (18:26)
I am sure that all of you have some spooky stories related to HR, right? I mean, we just got through with the holiday season, so you might have some haunting HR stories and...
Carrie Casey (18:39)
And whether
it's that you don't know how to get the right people attracted to your business to hire. If you're having a hard time with teacher burnout, we heard a lot about teacher burnout. We're going to be working on those things a little bit at the masterclass and a lot in the mastermind, reducing teacher burnout and improving the, the genesequoia, the culture.
your school and making it a place that people really want to come to every day to work with kids, to play with kids, to blow bubbles and have a great time.
Kate Young (19:19)
Well, hopefully you've enjoyed our conversation today. Tomorrow, or not tomorrow, technically it's next week. So our next episode, Carrie and I are actually gonna come back and talk a little bit more about how to mentally prep for that pre-K, universal pre-K and what you can still do to prep your program in 2026. come back to the next episode and listen to that today.
Like I said in the show notes is the link for the master class that will be 11 13 and if you got something or you just enjoyed the conversation share it with somebody else who needs to know and if you're a director share it with your owner.
Carrie Casey (20:04)
You can also send us a text. Go into your show notes, send us a text, let us know what problems you're having with staffing, and we'll make sure that we're gonna cover at least some of that in that master class. Talk to you soon.
