#188 How Traditional Media Drove $100K+ in Plumbing Leads

Looking to grow your home service business with smarter marketing?
In this episode, uncover expert strategies to elevate your brand, dominate local search, and drive real results through modernized media tactics. Tony Castellucci from Wanamaker Advertising joins us to break down how service businesses can shift from outdated marketing methods to high-converting digital strategies that work in 2025.

Learn why optimizing your Google My Business profile is now the most effective organic lead generator, how to use LSAs the right way, and where traditional channels like TV and radio still hold value—when used strategically. We also dig into ROI tracking, tech-powered branding, and building a unified marketing approach that amplifies reach and impact.

This episode is packed with insights for home service business owners, marketers, and anyone looking to build a stronger brand presence both online and offline.

🚨 In This Episode, We Cover:
🔹 Why GMB now outperforms LSAs for local leads
🔹 Making traditional media like TV & radio work in 2025
🔹 When to modernize vs. when to double down on classics
🔹 Tactical tips for tracking ROI across platforms
🔹 Blending digital and traditional to scale your brand
🔹 Lead gen strategies tailored to the home service industry
🔹 Branding that cuts through noise in competitive markets

💼 Special Thanks to Service Scalers!
We’ve been partnering with Service Scalers to maximize our Local Service Ads (LSAs) and optimize our Google My Business profiles, and the results have been incredible. With hundreds of thousands in sales and 900+ calls in a single week, GMBs are now our top-performing organic lead channel.
Want to learn how Service Scalers can do the same for you?

 🔗 Check them out here:

💼 Special Thanks to FieldPulse
FieldPulse is an incredible Field Service Management platform that helps you save hours each week while keeping your operations running smoothly. If you're looking to streamline your processes, stay competitive, and focus on what truly matters, FieldPulse is a game-changer!

📅 Book your demo here

🎙️ Episode Host:
🗣️ John Wilson – Follow on X: @WilsonCompanies

🎙️ Episode Guest:
🗣️ Tony Castellucci – Follow on X: @leads_wantmore
📍 Check out Wanamaker Advertising → wantmore-leads.com

📢 Enjoyed the episode?
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John Wilson, CEO of Wilson Companies
Jack Carr, CEO of Rapid HVAC

📌 Disclaimer:
Some links may include UTM parameters for tracking. Episodes may feature paid sponsors, but all opinions are our own. Always do your own research before making business decisions.

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro – Marketing for Home Service Companies
• 1:40 In-Studio Discussion with Tony from Wanamaker
• 4:00 The Impact of Digital Changes on Lead Generation
• 35:47 Understanding Advertising Budgets
• 38:25 Competition and Market Awareness
• 1:09:48 The Balance of CPM and Audience Targeting
• 1:15:43 Optimizing Media Buying Strategies
• 1:21:09 The Future of Traditional Media

Transcript

Episode 188 Transcript

Tony Castellucci: [00:00:00] How to grow your home 

John Wilson: service business. It's 

Tony Castellucci: gonna be marketing focused. It could be lead focused. I don't think this is great for lead gen anymore as it once was. Everybody's impressions, impressions, video, completion rate. I don't care. Can't sit on that. People need to poop. Absolutely. Branding is for cattle, branding is for cattle.

I'm an aggressive dude, so I'm gonna say conquest, those guys. Yes, absolutely. All right. Conquest? Yeah. Uh, foot on throat. There you go. If you want to piss off somebody, ask for the n.

John Wilson: So the latest thing that we've been working on. Is maximizing our LSAs, which is local service ads, and also optimizing our Google My Business profiles. So what that means is we're making sure that all Tony CastellucciTony CastellucciCastellucciCastellucci of our LSAs are on when we need them, and they're maximized to give us the best ROI. And then for GMBs, it's been partnering with service scalers to drive way more traffic through our GMBs.

GMBs are almost like the new SEO. The more you put onto [00:01:00] them, the better the performance. So our GMBs have been consistently getting better week after week after week, and it is our currently, our single most impactful. Organic lead channel. So we'll sell hundreds of thousands of dollars a week through our GMBs.

And I think last week we got 900 phone calls. So really impactful, awesome investment, and we've been able to partner with Service scalers on both of those things. If you wanna hear a little bit more about Service scalers, check out service scalers.com. Welcome back to Own and Operated. Uh, today we're gonna be doing a special show.

This is our first show in studio, so we just built out this, uh, awesome studio and I'm really excited to bring a friend here, Tony from Wanamaker. Welcome to the show. Appreciate 

Tony Castellucci: it. Thanks for having me. Um, happy to Christen the, uh, the new digs here. 

John Wilson: Yeah, it's an honor. No, this, this will be fun, man. Uh, this will be a lot of fun.

So today what we're gonna be talking about is how to grow your home service business, and I think you've got a really great angle for us to, uh, approach it. Yeah, it's gonna be [00:02:00] lead focused, it's gonna be marketing focused, and we're really gonna cover the gambit. Alright. 

Tony Castellucci: Yeah. Ab excited man. Lead gen is, is what we do and, um, been doing it a long time, so hopefully I can drop some nuggets of knowledge Yeah.

And, uh, help somebody out. 

John Wilson: Sure. Yeah. Before we dive in too deep, uh, I'd love it if you just gave us a brief one to two minute on. What's your background and how have you helped home service companies grow? 

Tony Castellucci: Yeah, so I'm Tony with wannamaker advertising. So, uh, we are a full service advertising agency, so we have, uh, clients all across the country.

Uh, home services is probably our biggest category, but we do do some work for lead gen, for legal, specialty healthcare, automotive, things of that nature. But, uh, my business partner and I founded the company about four years ago, and we both came from the other side of the glass. We did primarily traditional media.

Mm-hmm. Did digital there too, but TV's really the bread and butter of what we did. So, yeah. Uh, it happened kind of organically. We had a lot of success, um, on the other side and had enough success for customers where. [00:03:00] Um, clients wanted us to expand out to be able to help them grow, you know, outside of the boundaries that we were confined in.

So, yeah. Um, it's been, it's been a crazy four year run here and, uh, a lot of changes to keep up with and it's been a breath of fresh air for a lot of these guys. So, growing, um, primarily through word of mouth. I mean, we're not afraid to pick up the phone, but Yeah. Um, we've been doing this for four years.

We haven't lost a client yet, so I think the proof is important. All right. And, um, we just focus on, focus on results. 

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: We'd solve a lot of problems. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah, a lot of them. Um, and really honed in, which I'm super excited to talk about. I don't know that we've ever talked about on this show honing in on conventional traditional media.

Uh, so like in the conversation, we're, we're gonna be diving into, I know you guys mainly cover tv, but we're gonna be talking about, uh, radio in its place, streaming in its place. I'm even gonna try to force you into a billboards conversation. Uh, it's gonna be great. Yeah, absolutely. So let's, let's hit for a second.

[00:04:00] Um, I wanna talk about digital. Uh, you know, a lot of companies, I like to think of it as like the Armageddon of 2023. Yeah. So, o obviously a lot's changed in the past five years, and I think you brought it up a little bit with, uh, iPhone locking down their data. So gimme your perspective here over the last 

Tony Castellucci: few years.

So it all started back around 2020. Yep. Apple iOS update made it super simple for somebody to turn off tracking on their, on their Apple smartphone or tablet. They still manage over 50% of smartphones and mobile devices in the us So that's a huge, see, I 

John Wilson: don't feel like when that happened, I don't feel like that was that much of a thing for our industry.

Like, I have friends in e-commerce and everyone was like, yep. Oh my God, what do we do? I don't, I don't know if anyone talked about it for plumbing, hvac, like at all. Nobody talked 

Tony Castellucci: about it, and I. That was just the snowball getting thrown down the mountain. Yeah. And it just picked up and turned into avalanche.

Now, Google has gotten away with, uh, cookies, which is a lot of how they track you. Yeah. [00:05:00] Uh, there's federal and state level legislation through the works that are limiting what can and can't be tracked online. And, 

John Wilson: and I think the important thing here, just, and this is like educate me. Yeah. The reason this matters is because it makes it harder to track your core customer, like your ICP.

Tony Castellucci: I think the best way to describe it, the best example I can give is, is pay-per-click or AdWords. Before 2020, I knew plumber near me and I'm searching on that. But then I also, on the back end, Google knew your income, your occupation, your marital status, whether you owned a home, they knew everything. So they got an algorithm that's saying it's the quality lead, and they have the intent trigger of I need a plumber.

You pair 'em together, it's zero waste marketing. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: You take some of that away and now there's instances where I don't know if I'm a high school student doing a project and earning a plumbing company one day. Mm-hmm. Or if my water line just broke my kitchen. Yeah. So you can see how the quality of lead, you know, took a step backwards.

Yeah. Um, so you still need to be there. It's still the new yellow pages. Um, like Facebook you think like, or, or, or social spend in [00:06:00] general. Oh, well, with Facebook, um, Facebook's a different animal. It's hit or miss. I think it's a entry level, medium. I don't know. You don't scale on Facebook. Um, it's a part of the puzzle.

It's a part the digital strategy. LSA pay-per-click. Um, SEO, all that stuff. Yeah. Necessary evil, but has gone down, in my opinion, on efficiency. And that's just one. So, uh, data privacy is one. The industry itself is two. And then, you know, interruptions and disruption within the industry is three. So when I say the industry themselves.

Um, we're all guilty of it, whether you bring in a marketing guy, an advertising agency, a fractional CMO, which is just a funny name for an advertising agency, but it's apparently a hot trend. There's, there's that. And then the other part of it, we're dying Reed. I mean, people t uh, there, I don't know if there's an industry out there that makes it harder to do business with than a lot of traditional Oh yeah.

Advertis outlet. Yeah. Yeah. It is kind of wild. Yeah. Yeah. It's super aggressive and everybody's number one, there's different [00:07:00] methodologies. Yeah. 

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: And then the disruption side, I mean, it's, 

John Wilson: it's hard to get into then it's, and it's intimidating. Yeah. You know, uh, like even, um, radio is sort of like, oh, obviously a lot lower lift than in tv.

Like TV you have to like, bring on, you have to, you know, get someone to film it and it has to be high quality and maybe actors, and there's like a lift, you know, there's a lift there and it's like, where do you start? And then radio is even lower lift than that. 'cause really you just need like audio. But yeah.

Um, yeah, I think the part 

Tony Castellucci: of it is. Even with radio, billboards, whatever, any traditional media. I think, we'll, we could probably get into this on why it's not expensive, but the entry level cost. I mean, you're, you're asking, people are asking you to spend this a significant amount of money monthly, and when you don't quite comprehend what you're buying and what's all involved, it could be intimidating 

John Wilson: or, or like, what, what do you get?

Yeah, because I, I, yeah. I know that's, um, one of the, one of the things we've always heard, or like you'll see on like Facebook groups or whatever [00:08:00] Yeah. Is, um, well, how do you measure it? Like that's, that's always somebody's point with tv. And I'm like, I honestly, this is my own perspective and I'm not even pushing TV is like, I find it very easy to measure.

Yeah. Like, Hey, did Brandon's search go up? There's tons of KPIs. 

Tony Castellucci: Um. We always say we run towards measurement. I think the, one of the biggest mistakes I think a, um, a home service company does is they don't monetize the gold mine, which is your CRM data, your inbound data. Oh, sure, yeah. You pair that with the main KPIs from your Google Analytics.

Yeah. And, um, you'd be surprised on the correlations you can tie together. Yeah. And it all works together. I mean, 

TV will put digital on steroids. Yeah. Same radio all down the line. So Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, absolutely no, you can definitely prove it works. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, uh, you know, I know for us last year we had a couple, we had a couple core issues and I'm just curious how this [00:09:00] resonates with some of the clients you guys have worked with.

But, uh, we had two core issues on when we were starting to really try to understand what our options were. So the first one was, Hey, what do you do? Like, Google drives the bus, Google drives the bus for us, uh, whether it's LSA or uh, map pack or SEO or P, like whatever it is, like that's still a lot of our leads.

Mm-hmm. But what do you do when that volume dries up for a month? Which that is a, that is an annual problem that we have to face here. Uh, every Q1, it dries up. So, so we're like, all right, how do we handle that? Like, how do we un Google the business is what is what we called it? And we, we did mailers and TV and radio and events and, you know, all these different things.

So that was the first core problem. And then the second one was you hit a point, which I don't know how many of our listeners have hit that or how many of your clients have hit that, but there's a point where go like, you literally just can't give Google more money. Yep. It's out. Yeah. It hap for us it happened at a million dollars to spend Yep.

Of like, [00:10:00] of add total marketing budget. And this year we'll do like 2.2. And so like, Hey, what do you do? It's a, it's like the dumbest problem to explain to somebody, but it's actually kind of hard. It's like, Hey, what do you do with a million dollars? Yeah. And uh, it was hard to figure out. 

Tony Castellucci: I think both of those issues, both those core issues, I think tie back to, um, a study.

Actually Google did it. It's called the Z Mod study. Okay. How do I spell that? Years ago, ZMOT sits for zero moment of truth. Ooh. So Google ran this study and I think they updated it a few times. Okay. But essentially it is Google admitting I'm the new yellow Pages. When people, when you have that zero moment of truth, when the water pipe just burst in my kitchen and there's water gushing, I'm going to Google to find a plumber.

Yes. Now that's my zero moment truth. So like high intent, we're just gonna give it like a Yep. Yeah. But the, where it goes even, even further is there's, it needs a stimulus and there's your controlled stimulus and there's the uncontrolled stimulus. Okay. Uncontrolled is the act of God, I can't Q1. Yeah. Yeah.

I can't make pipes explode. Sure. [00:11:00] But then you could have your eye control stimulus. Which is, you know, I'm an HVAC company, it's getting warm. I would love to talk to 10,000 people in any market across the country that have an AC unit that's over five years old that Yeah. Would go and find you online.

Yeah. For a $99 special for op. Yeah. Um, so that's where you can drive demand down the funnel. No, 

John Wilson: I kinda like that 

Tony Castellucci: framework. Yeah. Yeah. So Z-M-O-T-Z-M-O-T, it, uh, zero moment of truth. Yes. ZMOT. That's interesting. Um, it's old. I mean, it's probably been out for 10 plus years. Yeah. But it still resonates 

John Wilson: well.

Yeah, totally. I mean, I think, uh, what we found the, the more, um, you know, obviously we'll dive into this, but like the, the more stuff that we did to drive off of Google and the more helped our Google where like, like branded search went up and like website. We're, we have two, uh, like core sites and like web traffic is over [00:12:00] 20,000 a month for a plumbing company.

Like that's insane. Uh, but budget's also $2.2 million. So, you know, we're, we are 

Tony Castellucci: pushing plumbing all works. Um, but no, to your point, I mean, it goes down, I mean, traditional media makes brand, the people that are only doing clients that we're getting in touch with that have only done and ever known digital Yeah.

Their branded traffic is, you know, under 20%. Under 10%. Yeah. You are paying for generic cost per click, so that's sky high. Mm-hmm. People that are searching Wilson and not just plumber. Oh yeah. And it's a much better lead. It can convince at a higher clip. Yeah. You name it. 

John Wilson: Yeah. How beneficial. Yeah, I totally agree.

I, I think something that I've struggled with, uh, just over the years. The only reason that we moved to Con, we've had radio for like five years. So, you know, 5, 5, 6 grand a month. I think the only reason that we've really accelerated our TV and streaming and uh, events is 'cause we ran out of money to spend on Google.

Yeah. And my position, I'm curious what your challenge is here. Like, my position [00:13:00] has been you can get to 15 or 20 million bucks just doing the expensive, like pay for leads. Yeah. Because brand, brand is hard. Brand's hard to drive. Oh, yeah. Um, so like, I don't know, what do you think about that? 

Tony Castellucci: Um, y you can typically you plateau and you hit a zero, you know, point of diminish returns, profitability suffers, um, conversion rates suffer.

There's a lot more that goes into it, in my opinion, than just getting that lead to call. I think that it all comes, I. Down the piping, I mean, profit's, what everyone's chasing, who owns a business. You know, with TV you are driving that branded traffic and you know, to radio. I mean, I'm a big believer that you don't just brand if you're an SMB, if you're a small to medium sized business, you don't just brand, you can brand yourself with a call to action.

So you're driving additional intent and clients down the funnel, but you're also building that brand, which takes time and you gotta be consistent with it. I [00:14:00] mean, anybody who's doing knee jerk, uh, ROI gauges within 90 days. I mean, no shorter than 90 days. 

Speaker 4: Yeah, 

Tony Castellucci: yeah. Um, but you, what, what was your, you 

John Wilson: had a line for this before we, it was like, branding is for cattle, branding is for cattle branding is for what?

What was the follow up line? Oh, geez. Oh, it was good, man. Whatever it was. I was like, where's my pen? Oh wait, now it's, it's enough to come to me. 

Tony Castellucci: Find it. We'll let it, we'll, we'll let it, yeah, we'll let it linger. But branding's for cattle. Branding's for cattle, I mean, everything should be focused on lead gen.

So that's why even on the traditional side, digital and traditional. Avenues are shifting. I don't think radio's as great for lead gen anymore as it once was. Mm. Billboards There's certain scenarios where it can be, you think of how you consume media now. Um, TV and video is really emerging as a clear cut figure.

Just the way you mean you're, it's compet video. Like social video or just video? Like any type of video. I, so when I talk video, primarily I'm talking about broadcast tv. Okay. When I say broadcast, a lot of people say, well, TV's dead. Um, cable is dead cable. [00:15:00] You know, even in your older demographic markets, you know, you're looking at cable penetration under 40%.

Hmm. When I say broadcast tv, I'm talking about the big four. A, B, C, C, B, S, Fox, N, B, C, those are over the air. Can can you explain the diff I actually 

John Wilson: have 

Tony Castellucci: no idea what the difference is. Yeah. So like, walk me through that. So, broadcast or over the air is they, that's exactly what they are. So if you have an HD antenna in your house, I mean, I cut the, I'm a TV guy at heart.

I cut the cord. I have a couple streaming bundles, but then I also have a, you know, it's not an antenna anymore. It's a little sticker that goes in the back of my tv. I get 55 stations over the air. So you'll have your local A, B, C affiliate, your local CBS affiliate, Fox, NBC. And that's broadcast. That's broadcast, that's, they're over the air.

You should always ze them up. It's free. No, no. Um, it's everything on that, on that affiliate. So it can vary market by market, but primarily news. Um, you'll have your syndication syndicated programming throughout the day. You know, NBC has NBC Staples, N BBC nightly. Okay. NBC's [00:16:00] Prime, uh, Fallons of the world, I guess.

I guess I don't understand how that's different from cable. In my mind. That's cable. So cable is bundled. So that's your Comcasts, um, that's your set top box. That's your video on demand. You know, there was, this started probably, um, I'd say eight to 10 years ago was a really started escalate. 'cause people, I think a lot of homeowners.

I saw their wireless and internet bills going up and they had to come somewhere. So, hey, I can now stream and cut this $180 mm-hmm. 7,000 channel bundle that I'm getting from Comcast or Spectrum or wherever you have. Yeah. And get an antenna for free. Watch, you know, my local news get my local information.

So when I say cable penetration, over 60% of any given market now at the good side doesn't have cable. So how are you reaching them on the tv? But, but they do have broadcast, no. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. And it's free. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: Broadcast. All the most broadcasts have, um, stations have their own apps. They're also, they, their signal gets picked up on the Hulu of the world.

Anything [00:17:00] live, YouTube live, Hulu Live, you're picking up your local affiliates. 

Speaker 4: Okay. 

Tony Castellucci: Um, signal. So you're getting that there as well. Even if you're a streamer. And then you have the streaming part of it as well. And, uh, I'll screen from the rooftops. Streaming is not, or OTT is not a replacement for broadcast tv.

You can't compete with the scale. It's a great supplementary piece. Compliment. Yeah. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now I'm just trying to, like, I have like a smart tv. I have no idea. We have, I have literally never watched the news, I mean, maybe 30 years ago. Yep. But I, I don't even know if I get the news. It's, well, it sounds like it 

Tony Castellucci: might, so the number one objection when I talk to a business owner about TV is I don't watch the news.

Business owners are a different breed. Okay, well, you work long hours, don't project yourself on the typical, um, homeowner. Yeah. In any given night, in most markets across the country, you can watch, uh, you could advertise in the 6:00 AM or 6:00 PM news and reach 40 to 60,000 adults. 35 to 64. So the audience is there.

Yeah. So when it comes to reaching adults over the age of 35 who probably own a [00:18:00] home, if that's of interest of anybody listening, broadcast TV is a great place to be. 

John Wilson: Yeah. I remember having this conversation, uh, like it was like six, seven months ago with my marketing manager. And again, dumb sounds like a dumb problem, but it genuinely was hard.

We're like, God, what do we do with half a million dollars next year? And he was blown away that, I don't even remember what study. If we find it, I'll like try to link it or whatever in the show notes, but it, it proved like bang for buck tv like drives, uh, impressions like far and above. Mm-hmm. Any other mass media that we could find and he would, he, I don't know, like we dove deep into it 'cause he didn't believe it.

Yeah. Um, and it was fascinating. 

Tony Castellucci: Break it down. I mean, the great equalizer in all marketing is CPM cost per thousand. Yeah. So how many thousands of, what's it cost me to reach a thousand people? Yeah. Yeah. The demo. Yeah. It's hard to be broadcast tv. Yeah. '

John Wilson: cause it's like what's a normal CPM? 

Tony Castellucci: You [00:19:00] know, for my normal guy, I try to be in the five to 10 range with 35 64.

It depends. Yeah. Um, I. It goes up and down to, I mean, every market's different. Mm-hmm. Competitive landscapes change. Mm-hmm. That what type of person you're after. If you wanna higher income and you wanna, you know, splurge on bigger shows like Jeopardy Wheel of Fortune or the price is Right during the daytime, those have a little bit higher cost to it, but it can vary.

Um, and there's ways to manipulate that with buying program specific versus buying a rotator and all kinds of Yeah. Get the weeds. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: But to your point, there is very little avenues out there where I can go out and in 30 seconds, reach a hundred thousand people in a day and then have them be in a position to take action.

Check you out. Yeah. Go down, read your reviews, go on your page, things like that. 

John Wilson: So when, so when you're, when you're thinking about, like directly comparing. Like a Facebook spend, uh, versus a TV spend [00:20:00] or OTT or billboards, like really anything mass. Yeah. CPM is like the measurement, 

Tony Castellucci: CPMs the measurement. But I also think there, back to that, you know, we talked about a little bit ago with intimidation, the amount of money that I see a smaller business spend on billboards is more than enough.

I don't understand it. Yeah. I really don't understand. And it's more than enough to buy a TV campaign and reach, you know, five times as many people for less money. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: Um, but I think it's just the perception that it's big time and, you know, it's could be a million dollars. Yeah. Tv. Yeah. I think it's intimidating, but it can vary and you don't have to, I mean, you went at it with both feet.

You don't have to, you, you could start mo and it depends on your market rank and, and all that good stuff. But CPM translates, so that's always something. Yeah. And that's why streaming video, your YouTubes of the world and your, um, digitally based impressions. You're looking at CPMs in the low range of probably $20.

I mean, you want your high, uh, nons skippable, full [00:21:00] episode player, OTT, you're looking upwards of 40, 50, $60 CPM broadcast. Five to 10. Yeah. Um, 

John Wilson: we have, yeah. And the reach is, is just big in broadcast. If you wanna, it's the biggest reach. If we actually couldn't find another way to reach as many people. 

Tony Castellucci: We did try.

If you wanna piss off somebody, ask for the net reach when you're going and buying streaming video. Yeah. Ask for the net reach of that campaign. 'cause everybody's impressions, impressions, video, completion rate, impressions, impressions. I don't care what, what's the diff like what does net reach mean? I don't know.

Net reach is how many different people within my demo data reach. 

John Wilson: Okay. So impressions could be like impressions. I was impressed on that. You could watch the times. Same spot five times. It's five times. Gotcha. Gotcha. 

Tony Castellucci: Uh, we had a guy who insisted it was an attorney. It wasn't even home service category, but he insisted that he wanted to take broadcast money and fund the OT campaign for three month trial.

We insisted. No, that's a bad idea. Hmm. But if you hold a gun to my head and dangle money in front of it, I'll eventually listen. Mm-hmm. So we did it for three months. He spent 20 grand, he reached [00:22:00] almost 13,000 people. 3, 5 64 in a top 30 market for $200. In your leading new news, you will reach more than that.

So $200, 30 seconds, three months, 20 grand. That's where now on the other side of that you can really target. So it's a great complimentary. So if you wanna do broadcast and then sprinkle in some high income zips, hyper targeted with streaming video, that's where the synergy comes from. Hmm. But, um, not a replacement.

Yeah. I get passionate. Am I getting fired up? 

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Field pulse.com. So, so digital. Um. I think the be and the way that we think about this, and it sounds like you do too. We see any, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a broad category here, and as a TV guy, you're not gonna like it. Bring it on. Okay. Uh, traditional. And that's the broad, literally anything that's not, uh, uh, digital for us, we see as, as traditional.

Okay. So that's gonna be, uh, like radio, billboards, even OTT we kind of consider, 'cause it's, uh, similar for us in radio. And the [00:24:00] way that we look at it is it is an accelerant for our digital presence. And that sounds like how I should be thinking about this. 

Tony Castellucci: Yes and no. Yes, it will. And does, um, I think there's way too much stock put in the last touch attribution.

I think Google gets Oh, much credit. Yeah. They get, they do. Yeah. Yeah. They, you run a TV campaign. I. Yeah. Yeah. I had a commercial run at 7 58 in the Today Show, and I got a paper click lead at 7 59. Isn't that great? Yeah. Yeah. There's a correlation. Yeah. Yeah. So taking a step back again, I, the, the more KPIs you look at, the more you'll kind of see it flow.

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: But I mean, with broadcast tv, you're not running a million spots, a million commercials, spots commercial. You're not running a million commercials. So you could easily, if you have an agency or an expert that works with you, they should be able to take your inbound leads in the spot times and pair them up and you'll see what's working, what's not.

Okay. And you'll, it'll all correlate right. To the ga Yeah. And you'll see your direct and organic [00:25:00] traffic spike, see your conversion percentage spike 

John Wilson: branded traffic. So like TV ad goes live branded search went up within an hour. Yep. We feel good about that. Feel good about that. Great. For, as in, like that's a good thing to measure.

That's a good thing to measure. I like to look at 20 minutes. Okay. So I, um, 

Tony Castellucci: increments or just like the first 20. As far as inbound leads matched with TV commercials. So if I get a lead calling or filling on the form fill within 20 minutes, that's usually my default now. Yeah, I'm fine. Say hey, 15 or I'll give you a half hour.

That's debatable. If it's a bigger purchase, you know, I'm selling my home, you know, maybe they need to see the commercial, research it a little bit before they call, so you might wanna manipulate that. But 20 minutes is the standard and you'll be surprised you run a week. How many of the inbound leads are coming in, you know, pretty instantaneously, but within 10 minutes, 15 minutes for sure.

Really? And um, you know, we have clients that will turn over everything. They try to source it. So I get the, I get a kick outta that when I'm seeing SEO. SEO [00:26:00] has never driven a lead in its life. SEO is a safety net. You're there, you're playing defense. SEO is organic, someone is searching you. Yeah. No one just wakes up and says, I just feel like searching plumbers today.

Someone has to drive them the stimulus. I mean, I wake up like that. You may, you may. Normal person does. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it's funny to you kind of see how last touch attribution funnels it and then how it correlates with traditional side. Yeah. And, uh, it drops the bus and it puts all those digital efforts on steroids.

Yeah, a hundred percent. What else should I be measuring 

John Wilson: as far as like, that was an interesting one. What's that? Just the ROI. Yeah. I mean, well, first 20 minutes, like, I think that's, that's really interesting. What else should I be thinking about? So 

Tony Castellucci: with TV and most traditional media. It is not your first soiree in the marketing.

So a, you have benchmarks as in like, no one starts with tv. No one really starts with tv. Okay. You're not gonna start plumbing a company tomorrow and just say, Hey, I'm rip into TV 5, 

John Wilson: 10, 15. Well, controversially, you know, I, we've talked about this before the show, but everyone seems to like do that with billboards and I literally don't get it.

Like, I not, [00:27:00] they perceive it as I do not get it. 

Tony Castellucci: You know, you get a high traffic billboard, you're talking five, 10 KA month for something. Some of good areas get it. You pair that to five different billboards and adds up quick. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: But it comes off, I think just if you're not really versed in the marketing world, it seems like a relatively inexpensive way to, to dive into it.

And it's not the case. Yeah. Actually nobody starts with tb. I wouldn't say nobody, but it's rare. Yeah. It's rare for someone to come out and just start shelling thousands. I mean, you kind of, you go through the Thumbtack and the Angie's List world. Yeah. And you go through, you work your way up, um, so you have benchmarks.

You know, I, if I'm spending the same amount of money and I've allocated it this way, and I saw closing percentage go up. Inbound leads go up. Things like just regular KPIs without even getting too granular. Then you dive in deeper. What's your web traffic doing? My branded traffic going up? Is my direct traffic going up?

Is my organic traffic going up? Good KPIs there. Then you can dive in even deeper and um, you know, the days are, my commercials are running, [00:28:00] is that going up? Are the zip codes where I'm running billboards? Are they going up Again, back to my main point, so many business owners have a call center that is taking notes and stamping when that lead comes in and then doing nothing with it.

Yeah. You dive into that and then even better pair it back to a TV campaign, a billboard campaign, and start to connecting those dots. It makes it real easy to cut fat and reallocate to what's working. Mm-hmm. And um, so that's the biggest one. And people look at me like it's a great idea, but it's pretty simple.

You just gotta put in the legwork. 

John Wilson: Yeah. So operationally closing rate, average ticket. Mm-hmm. I think those were the two you maybe number of leads. Like number calls. So 

Tony Castellucci: yes, some, I mean, we've had success with clients that really didn't see a huge increase in the number of calls, but we've seen their closing percentage get through through roof.

Mm. I mean, think about it. If they see 

John Wilson: you on tv, well, it's higher. It's higher like intent. Yeah. Less bid. We noticed that when we first went live on radio six months after we, you know, went live, which it feels like that's the [00:29:00] timeframe. Yeah. We noticed that like closing rate went up and like higher organic search, but then the people, like the people that were searching had already done their research and they, it was like a more intimate buying experience versus, you know, LSA or map pack just serves you up next to the next guy that has close to as many reviews as you.

Yep. And it it is Yellow pages. 

Tony Castellucci: Yeah. Yeah. Percent. And I mean, if you even take it another step further, especially if you wanna talk about. Homeowners 65 plus. Mm. They see you on tv. They feel like there's a connection there. You're talking about, you know, profit, you're gonna run, retire, shop. It's, you walk in to Betty, miss Betty's house down the street Yeah.

And they saw you on TV and you're this famous person. You come walking in, you're sold. Yeah. You're buying, you close at a way higher clip. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: So, um, and then, you know, profitability. I mean, are they, are they shopping you? Yeah. Are you closing on the spot? All goes into it. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I do think there's a, um, I'm gonna go back to your sentence.

Like, nobody starts on tv. There is a credibility piece [00:30:00] Yep. With tv. Um, yeah. It's like, oh, these guys are legitimate. Like, everyone in my church knows that I run Wilson Plumbing and I haven't got as many comments on, Hey, I saw your stuff as, when we first started doing tv. Mm-hmm. It's like, Hey, nice ad. And I'm like, I don't even even know who you are.

But, but it was, it was really interesting. So I think in the mind of anybody. You're much more legitimate. Absolutely. You're, you're differentiating yourself, I mean, 

Tony Castellucci: yeah. Well, it's expensive. It's real. Yeah. It's like, oh, this is a real thing. Yeah. I mean, usually when you out, when you outgrow the lead aggregators, you jump to traditional tv, I would emphasize to go to tv, but every, anything's better than that.

But, and I always laugh. I mean, how did Angie build her business? Mm. By buying TV ads and then selling them back. Yeah. So, makes sense. Biggest TV advertisers across the country. Google, Facebook. Mm-hmm. Amazon, Amazon making huge investments with prime picking up, uh, football games. Yep. You know, so, um, it's there.

It's real. Yeah. That's [00:31:00] interesting. Walk me through, walk me through OTTA little bit. So, OTT is, it's called Connected tv. It's called Streaming tv. It's called OTT over the top. And it is your Hulus, your YouTube TVs. Mm-hmm. Netflix. Um. Disney plus, all of that is Disney has ads. It's considered OTT, some of it has ads, some or don't.

So there's, um, I must pay for the subscription. I must pay for the bougie Disney. So there's two models. There's subscription based and then there's AD supported. Interesting. So AD supported is the one, I think all of these, um, companies realize that when you start running out of content, people don't wanna pay subscriptions anymore.

So back to good old Oh, advertising support. Yeah. Or platforms. Yeah. Um, so 

John Wilson: you're seeing that with like the Netflix and even hbo. I wonder what the, like for those that are ad supported, I know Netflix added, I'm curious what their, uh, I just wanna know the revenue breakdown, right? Like if it's a billion dollars, [00:32:00] is 400 million of IT ads and 600 or, or I wonder if it's even 10%.

Uh, you know, that's 

Tony Castellucci: a good question. I mean, a lot of it's still. Especially when, when you buy the premium stuff, a lot of it is still getting cut off the top at, um, what they call upfronts. So every year all the big advertising agencies and national players, the regional players meet and then they go up, up a lot of the good inventory.

So yeah. That, you know, usually isn't as publicly available information, but that's where a lot of their revenues coming from. Yeah. That, that it trickles down like a waterfall and by the time it gets to somebody locally, it's hard to decipher where the best quality impressions are. But to your point, it's the wild west.

Uh, everybody sells it. There's a million different O otp. Yep, yep. Uh, providers out there. Every radio rep, TV rep, newspaper rep, billboard rep probably is pushing OTT on your face. I should show it's the new shiny toy. Yeah. I look at it as the best and worst thing to tv. Yeah. 'cause um, TV has fixed, broadcast TV has fixed inventory.

So when you'd see [00:33:00] your national and regional guys mm-hmm. Pulling budget out of good old school TV and moving it over to the streaming platforms. Pressure on inventory for just about every station of America drops. Oh, that drops the rate. So now the entry level for your SMB goes down. Yeah. They can clean up and use what, uh, the big boys were using for years to build their businesses.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. So the, the good part of it is with broadcast tv, we were talking about earlier, you are reaching the market. There is very little targeting outside of days, times program types that you can target. Yeah. OTT, exact opposite, like 24 7 million different, it's on demand viewing. So I want men 35 to 50 that live in these zip codes.

Mm-hmm. You know, that you can get very, very granular, 

John Wilson: but you're paying for, and that seems, yeah. That seems like the counter argument here is I think one of the challenges, not even think everyone's challenge with conventional mass media, like tv, radio is, well, how do you [00:34:00] measure it and how do we, how do we target.

Mm. And I, that seems to be the thing that people like about OTT or social is that, hey, we can pick men 35 to 60 in these zip codes and we know exactly who's being served up our shit. Yep. Versus like anybody that potentially turns on Fox in this hour. 

Tony Castellucci: Yeah. It's, it's a dangerous, it's a danger. I mean, it depends on the category.

Everybody has a toilet, you know? Only Yeah, they do. 35 to 40 are taking a dump. Then just target that. Well, they do. Others out probably take more. There's, there's others out there. So if you, I mean that's the biggest thing with old school media, specifically tv, but the most TV is your scale. If I put you in any market and get, and said you can be in nine out of every 10 homes and I give you 30 seconds to do your sales pitch, you're gonna close a lot of business.

Mm-hmm. There's million homes in some, in most markets. Yeah. So. You're giving up a little bit of that targeting, but you're adding in the [00:35:00] scale. It's a numbers game. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: Especially, I mean, roofing, HVAC plumbing you, again, you can compliment the broadcast in some zip codes that you want to hone in on, but I would think there's very few homes that couldn't use your service.

So multiplying that out, reaching a million, 2 million people a month, you know, it's a numbers game. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. I'm really curious now how many, how many we do, what do, what do you think it takes? Um, what do you think it takes to, like start, I'm a, I'm a plumber, I'm 5 million bucks of revenue. Like is TV in the cards for me?

What, when do you think I should, or what's the budget at that point? I mean, it depends on market, so, 

Tony Castellucci: okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do that. Start depends on market, you know, a mid-market Cleveland for instance. Um, you know, assuming you're using some kind of SBA, uh, recommended. It's advertising percentage, so like an eight to 10% end of revenue.[00:36:00] 

Now that budget's probably, probably, there, again, it depends on the landscape, but usually I'd say 7,500 ish is probably the low end a month. For a smaller market you 

John Wilson: get in the top 10. It's actually nothing more bad. No. Because when, you know, covid, we were doing, uh, we walked into 2020, we do 2020 was our first year on radio and uh, we're like 3.8 million at the end of 2019.

Mm-hmm. And we're like, Hey, we gotta do, gotta do this. I don't know why I thought we had to do this, but we did. And, uh, I think we started at seven grand a month. So seven doesn't feel bad at all. No. 

Tony Castellucci: And listen, that's, that's entry level, that's enough to move the needle in most markets. Yeah. One of the things that we tell clients that I.

Sometimes we get pushback, but we stand behind it. Roughly 50% of your budget should be going to scale school media. Ooh. 50% of the market. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:37:00] What's the pushback either, which way have you, have you ever had anybody be like, dude, I need to do 80% towards it. When 

Tony Castellucci: people have been, when you build your business through lead aggregators and digital, and then somebody, you plateau and even you need help.

Mm-hmm. You're still, I built my baby this way. Yeah. And now you're telling me to, you know, take a portion of it and, and move 

John Wilson: it to unknown. Well, I mean, totally different game too. 'cause I think, you know, back in, uh, we had Ishmael, uh, Valdez on the show three months ago, four months ago. I mean, in 2020, if you walked into 2020 mm-hmm.

20, $30 million shop, you could walk out of 20, 23, 80 to a hundred pure freaking digital. Like it was a wild time. Yep. And like, not even pure digital, but all LSA, it was the most ridiculous moment in home service advertising. So I do feel like everyone is still a little hungover 'cause they were so freaking drunk.

Yep. On LSAs. Yep. 

Tony Castellucci: No, I'm, I'm, I'm with you. And um, you know, it's not [00:38:00] that TV didn't work as good back there, but to your point, if you could maximize it and it's easy and it's less intimidating and it's slightly easier to track just because of the last touch attribution. I get it. I get it. But now the game has changed.

Yeah. Between all the reasons I mentioned before and then, you know, maxing out, you know, LSAs Yeah. And, and PPC. So that's where I have a lot of, you know, home service clients that are thrown out their hands. Well then, shit, what do I do now? 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: Well take it back to the basics. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: Uh, what is the basics of marketing?

How can I get in front of as many potential clients as I can for the least amount of money with the most compelling message? Yeah. It's hard to beat video. We're lazy. Everybody know, but everyone's gonna read text. But you watch a video. Hard to beat the scale and CPM of tv, even radios to a certain extent.

But radio, the big thing with me is it's too fragmented and it's how you're consuming it. You're probably driving, you probably can't take action there. You're not in your home for a home service company. You don't know, you [00:39:00] aren't thinking about your plumbing and then seeing the ad at the same time. Uh, for the most part.

Yeah. So not a huge believer with there. I used to be, not, not as much anymore. So, yeah. So it's, that's 

John Wilson: 7,500 bucks a month. What do you think, like how much should I be thinking about what my, like who else is on TV around me? How much should you like the com 

Tony Castellucci: the competition? Yeah. You know, be aware. I mean, I pull media monitors in every market I go in just to, so I'm aware of who I'm competing with and what 

John Wilson: they're buying.

But I think you should define that real quick. 'cause something that was interesting to me when we, I had no idea. Yeah. That you could just look like, you can find out who's spending in your market Yeah. And even roughly what they're spending, which was pretty 

Tony Castellucci: interesting. Yeah. So radio, tv, billboards, even.

Um, billboards too, I believe. Billboards, yeah. Really. That's cool. There's, um, different companies that do it, but it's, it's a medium wire. So Yeah, all these people, they'll, they'll send in their generic rate card. Okay. And then they have people like stations. Yeah. So they're, how they price [00:40:00] either their radio station, their TV stations, their billboards generally speaking.

And it's gonna be like CPM or like, is that it? No, it's not even CPM, it's just, Hey, for the new news, we charge roughly $300. So anytime that their software or monitors see a commercial run in the new news, they just apply $300. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, they exist. Usually one of the vendors in every market will have it.

You can even subscribe yourself. So it's good. How much is it? If I wanted to subscribe? Oh, I never really even acquired. Um, typically you can go to a good rep in a market and say, you know, give me the, all the ag stations. Yeah. Who, who's on here? Yeah. So be aware. We always take that in consideration. But I'm at the mindset where you're not competing with others.

You're compete. You want the growth, you want the market share. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, we had an example about a year ago. There's a competitive market. I think it was legal again, weirdly enough, but, um, legal spends bro. Legal spends. They spend, they're caseload driven. They're lead driven. It's very [00:41:00] similar to home service.

It is, it's like legal dentist, plumbing. And what do they have in common? They have very broad Yeah. Customer bases. So scale was key. Yeah. And that's where TV comes into play. But he saw one of his biggest competitors pull back and came to us and was like, should I pull back? And I'm Hell. Interesting. Hell no.

I mean, if the king 

John Wilson: comes, that would be kind of fun to know. Like. Like, we're in the middle of Trump tariff week. Yeah. Like, what happened? You know, I'm, I, I'm, I don't, I, I just wanna know, I would be fascinated with what, like Yeah. Did my market pull back? Oh, because you always, you always wonder, yeah. Right.

Like, you always wonder like, hey, some macro thing happened. Mm-hmm. Uh, 'cause I remember in Covid, like the reason we actually did radio was I, I, our old accountant used to work at the radio station and she said, Hey, all these guys dropped off and they're selling it cheap. And I was like, oh, really? And then we ended up securing the most ridiculous price point in history, and we have [00:42:00] kept that same price point for six years because everybody else pulled out and they just had inventory.

Yep. Oh, I bet it's, I bet it's weird. This week. Have you noticed anything? Um, not 

Tony Castellucci: much. I mean, I. Some categories like automotive, I don't know if ever really came back fully post pandemic. So I think it was starting to get close to normal and then you hit this and now you have, you know, autos really affected.

Yeah, you have, I mean, so much. I mean, yes, but no, I mean, usually unless you're a private label, I mean, you, you typically have suppliers that are US based really, or you know, Amish in our neck of the woods. You can, you can, you could find and get around it. And I look at it as an opportunity, Hey, if I can get my product in here without passing it along to the consumer, sure.

I'm gonna go scream that from the mountains and Yeah. Tell people to now is there, hold back just generally with the, the way the market is and consumers maybe, uh, we see it, it's 

John Wilson: a once a month reporting. It's not tight. The media monitor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, like could I, could I be like, Hey, what happened in the [00:43:00] last 10 days?

There's 

Tony Castellucci: a, there's a lag, but you can, you can filter it by time, you can get it monthly, but there is a lag for them to go through it. Yeah. It's sick. Yeah. I, I'm real curious now. Yeah, no, absolutely. And. It's really helpful to know where they're at. I mean, if you're owning this station Yeah. And somebody's on there.

I mean, there's two, you know, wavelengths there. I want to go dominate his. Yeah. Or I'm gonna defend mine or hybrid of the two. So it's good to know where it's at, but when people back off, I look at that as cheap market share. Oh yeah. I'm gonna wanna steal your market share now. Yeah, 

John Wilson: a hundred percent. Have fun saving your money.

Yeah. In, in the scenario you just described, um, like, I own this station, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull it from radio. So again, we've been on the same station for five years and at this point we own that station. Like we've been on there for five years. Everybody knows we've been on there for five years. We're on there a lot for five years.

And I'll occasionally hear, like, I don't listen very often, but [00:44:00] I'll occasionally hear other companies on there and I'm like, that just seems odd. It seems like a weird decision. Like, I clearly own the station. What are you going for here? 

Tony Castellucci: Yeah. With, with radio, they're probably the most, don't we say ho?

Like, but they're, they're ho they're, yeah. They're desperate for money. Okay. I love that. So if they can piggyback two plumbers back to back for a buck, they're, they're gonna do it. I mean, there's no 

John Wilson: competitive step at all. I totally get that. They're hoes. I'm, I'm on board for that. Let's keep every second of that.

But them conquesting your territory. Yeah. Like if, should I be doing that? So if I see somebody, like, so I think in our market, somebody really is like doing big on Fox. Like, should I just avoid Fox or should I attack Fox? I, I'm an aggressive 

Tony Castellucci: dude, so I'm gonna say conquest. Fuck those guys. Clunk. Yes.

Absolutely. All conquest that shit. Yeah. Uh, foot on throat to go. Okay. There could be another side done to that. And obviously it's a conversation with whoever's handling your marketing. But, um, yeah, no, I'm, I tend to, if I can steal market share or steal some of your business, I'm gonna do it every [00:45:00] time.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Tony Castellucci: And typically, if you have the right guys in your corner buying your tv, being strategic, you can usually. Buy it for less and outsmart them. Make $1 work like three. Yeah. Good old fashioned street fight on the Fox network. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Like what do, what do you think that looks like? What's that? I think most people that are listening, like, we have the unique advantage of being the largest in our market.

Mm-hmm. So that's not obviously the case for most people listening. Yep. So if they weren't the largest in their market and they had, uh, 800 pound gorilla on something. So own, own one channel, 

Tony Castellucci: either one channel, but doesn't mean it has to be one channel, but just don't be too much. Don't be, don't spread a tooth thin.

Alright. So don't shock them. Find your efficiencies. Find your areas that are gonna move The needle owns as much as you can of those areas that are within your budget. Is, and there's math to that. I mean, we have metrics that we are kind of secret sauce behind the scenes. We plot it and see, okay, well we've maxed this out so we can expand in the program two or three or channel two or three, but own something and then expand off [00:46:00] from there.

When, when most of our clients come on tv. Within the 90 days, it's not am I gonna stay on, it's where can I expand to. Mm-hmm. So that, and, 

John Wilson: and channel wise, so like I start on Fox to own it and I wanna move to what? NBC or, yeah. It's, it's different in every market. Or like some markets same, same channel, different segments.

Like, I wanna be on morning and evening news. Like what, what do you mean by the expand part? So, 

Tony Castellucci: uh, this would be difficult to do if you're direct, if you're handling your own advertising. Okay. If you're just a business owner, this will be very hard to do. Okay. 'cause you're gonna be presented each station, they come in with a package and they want all your budget and this, that and the other.

Yeah. Yeah. When you work with somebody, like an advertising agency like us, we will put every program and every station side by side and compare it, but not even so much channel by channel, but just where the efficiency, usually it'll follow one, there's an 800 pound gorilla, some markets have two, some market have three strong predictions.

Mm-hmm. But you'll see not only where the audience is, but [00:47:00] then. Back to CPM. Hey, I don't care if you have the number one ratings in this program. Yeah. If you're four times a ccp m somewhere that's a little more efficient. So, um, it really does vary. But typically this is somewhere, you know, I hate to keep going down, you know, the TV avenue, but, you know, news and sports is, is really the new tv.

Oh yeah. We live. Oh yeah, totally. So find some newscast for home service, company home run, find some newscasts usually. Um, what, what's home run like? Just goldmine. Oh, okay. Okay. I mean, you, your local, the local news audience is somebody who owns a home for the most part. Has a family, is Yeah. Wants to know what traffic 

John Wilson: is.

You, you know, what's been kind of funny about like, being on tv and this is, this is back to like the measuring and like finding out who else is spending, like plumbing is like kind of a, it's a red industry, like everyone's pubs. Right. And it was, it was a really funny because when we started finding out like where other people spent, like, I think they only.[00:48:00] 

Spent where their brain was. Yeah. Everybody was on Fox. Yeah. And it was, uh, I don't know, that was just like a, I just remembered that a second ago. I'm like, there was like 50 people on Fox and there was like two guys on a, B, C or whatever the other ones are. There 

Tony Castellucci: are a lot of ways to do all marketing really, but TV wrong.

You can make a lot of fatal errors. You can get ripped off very quickly. Yeah. Um, you have a good sales team and high ratings, you'll gobble up all, all of that money where, you know, it might be worth, you know, stripping the second and third place station and reaching as many people for less. Yeah. Yeah. So there's, there's a strategy behind it.

Yeah. 

John Wilson: That's funny. How do you think, um, I just wanna keep going back to billboards 'cause I actually, I just really don't understand it. Yeah. There's a, there's a company we looked at buying maybe two years ago. Okay. And, uh, good sized company five, 5 million or 6 million or like, you know, in that, in that, uh, zone and full 10% marketing budget, 500 grand.

That's a lot of money. Like to me that [00:49:00] sounds like a lot of money and 150 of it was going to to billboards and like nothing, nothing else. Yeah. I think billboards have to have a place like it has to work. Yeah. Somehow. Yeah. Like what's your argument for like, hey, if you're doing XX billboards can make sense.

I'm, I'm admittedly 

Tony Castellucci: not a huge billboard guy. However, I agree they do have its place. Yeah. I look at it more as a branding tool and you know, my stance on that, it's for cattle. Cattle. Got it. So, and I'm not John Dutton, not what am I doing. Um, but to me the best way to use billboards is either if it make, if you're getting co-op or there's coop available, you max it out.

So if you're getting co-op for billboards, absolutely do that. Yeah. But then, um, also to make your present. If there's zip codes that you want to own, you know, buy your billboards or bus shelters strategically in those zip codes or maximize your presence, you're. HQ is in, you know, an area, but [00:50:00] maybe the building can't see it.

I billboard buy it. Yeah. So there's ways to maximize and be strategic, but to take that much of the budget and just go, it is crazy, man on billboards, which yeah. Really aren't lead gen. Yeah. Yeah. No, good luck. That's not gonna work well. 

John Wilson: Yeah. What, what I kind liked the idea of, I like the idea that everything is the same thing, so I'm gonna walk you through it.

Cur curious what your feedback is here. But, so I think my tv, radio, billboards, mailers, website, socials should match. So if I'm running a campaign, like we have a campaign going, I think, I think in like two weeks it starts going, it's for like summer acs. Acs. Buy your ACS for me. Yeah. In Ohio, I think Ohio Heat is the campaign we're calling.

It did our shots. We're gonna use roughly the same script for radio. We're gonna take the actors, put them on billboards. We're gonna do mailers with it, we're gonna run like clip, its for socials [00:51:00] and like change the banner on our website. So to me, I feel like as a package, it makes sense. What, do you have any pushback for me on this?

Tony Castellucci: I think all your marketing should work together. So the uniformed brand, again, your branding while you're lead gen, that non-negotiable home run. Mm-hmm. I keep saying home run now that you coming outta home, run goldmine, whatever you want. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ever. 

John Wilson: Well when, yeah, when you first said it, I was like, oh, this is some jargon.

I don't know. Yeah, no. Yeah. It's a super cool TV jar. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, 

Tony Castellucci: he's only one way to find that here's my cell. Um, so in that part of it, yes, I do think that for the most part, a lot of agencies, and I'm not even sure how this all stemmed, okay, but a lot of agencies or quote unquote marketing experts, or again, fractional CMOs, they.

I like to shy away from ROI and judgment by just spraying everywhere and just hoping that something works. I'm a big proponent of dial in what's working. So you don't [00:52:00] necessarily need to be in all those places, but your budget, you might be able to to, to maximize them all. But's your main point. Uniform all day.

I mean, I even push back, I'm not anti vanity number or call tracking number, but if you're gonna run an ad pushing your phone number, 

John Wilson: yeah. Yeah. That's a tough way to use three seconds. It's a tough way 

Tony Castellucci: if I'm, you know, an older person. Yeah. And I'm see a different number than the one I half wrote down, but forgot that I'm on Google.

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: It gets confusing. QR codes come on. Yeah. I mean, when's the last time you ever took your phone 

John Wilson: out and scanned a QR code on tv? Yeah, absolutely haven't. I also think potentially a misunderstanding of like what the purpose is. Now you're gonna, I think you have a different perspective than I do on tv.

I think it's, yeah, the phone number's a bad use and like if we look at it as a whole, like how can our. How can our TV and our mass media accelerate our, our digital, like, how can we get them onto our website? Mm-hmm. Uh, and how can we convert there in like a more controlled environment? I feel like that's the whole point.

So like [00:53:00] why waste time on the phone number? I, I don't really, I don't really get it. Yeah. I mean, there's 

Tony Castellucci: still a small portion that, that we'll call it that doesn't hurt to be there, but to your point, I'm driving phone number A, it gives you more KPIs and more a MO for optimization. Yeah. Uh, b most people are gonna do that anyway.

Um, so people go where they're invited, so invite them there. Ooh, I like that. Um, yep, that's a good line. Absolutely. If you want someone to do something, tell 'em to do it. Yeah. Yeah. So go to my website. Yeah. So go to this page for the best specials for AC tuneups. Um, subscribe below. See that? Like my video, the fourth invited.

So, um, yeah, no. Um, so the, I mean, again, I'm not, I have clients that really want a, you know, a vanity number, but I'll tell 'em straight up like, who's gonna call that? I've worked. Around marketing and TV a long time. I probably called the number on the screen. You know, on one hand I could probably count the time.

It's hard. You gotta down. Yeah. 

John Wilson: I mean, I, I don't, you know, but I think everyone's, yeah, I'm sitting there with my phone. I'll be like, ah, companion viewing. I'm gonna Google. [00:54:00] No Wilson. Wilson. Boom. Done. Here go. Yeah. So that's interesting. Alright, so, uh, some I want to cover because I, I think it's just, um, you approach this differently than I do, so I'm like, and you're smarter than me.

So like, it's the first, it's the first time I heard that. You are welcome. It's recorded too. You show your wife. Walk me through Lead Gen tv. Lead gen tv, um, I mean, you've talked a lot about how like, hey, branding's for cattle and most people are gonna approach mass media, me included branding first brand.

Uh, we actually attempt literally the opposite. Like our goal with our mass media isn't to drive leads at all. It's to take over Mindshare. Mm. So like you can do it too te tell me how I'm wrong and tell me how we can be driving leads more effectively. So when you deal with scale, 

Tony Castellucci: you're, you're approaching it in a different way.

Okay. So I'm a big believer that 1% of the market is in the market at any given time. [00:55:00] So 1% of the market is going to need a plumber. Alright? So 1% of the people that could need an 

John Wilson: HVAC replacement 

Tony Castellucci: or an HVAC replacement, 

John Wilson: they're out there. Okay. So on every other medium you're trying to him with a spear.

And, sorry, I just wanna double click on that really quick so I understand it. So it's, it's of the people that actively need the service or that could ever need the service that somebody needs your service, whether you're a roofer of my market. Yep. Alright. So if I have, there's 1.6 million people that are homeowners with the correct income, like enough income to afford my services Yep.

In our service area. So in your mind, 116,000 of them at any moment are Listen me through math on the fly, but yes. To your point. Okay. No, 

Tony Castellucci: absolutely. Yes. Okay. I'm, I'm just making sure I understand that. And that's an interesting way to think about it. It's an interesting way to think about it. And it's total, the, the, the thought process is totally different than digital.

Digital. You're with spear, you're hunting, you're playing defense. You're there when [00:56:00] they need you. Well, it's bottom funnel bottom. You're catching that search funnel. Totally funnel, totally top funnel. I'm throwing a big ass net and I'm telling them, yeah, here's who I am, here's what I want you to do, and here's a reason to do it.

And, you know, that's why I say lead gen tv, you gotta have a call to action. It could a little wi your thing. It could be, um, free estimates. Yeah, it could be financing, it could be a tuneup special, huh? There needs to be a hook that's gonna make me go from, I should call them to, I'm going to call them, or I'm, I should go on the website or I'm gonna go on the website, uh, and speak to that 1% who right now could be swayed.

Um, yeah, dude, I'm super into that. Yeah. 

John Wilson: Um. That's interesting. Absolutely. What do you, what do you think, like quality of content? I 

Tony Castellucci: feel like there's a lot there. Um, so I kind of, are you talking about just the, the commercial itself? Like how hot? 

John Wilson: Yeah. Like, you know, most people in plumbing, they know, [00:57:00] um, radiant, so like radiant Plumbing, they're awesome.

Uh, the team down there is great. They're in Austin, Texas, and like they went viral with some of their like videos and they're freaking hilarious. Yeah. Like, they're good. And it's like, uh, I mean it's just like pure comical, but like it drove some real stuff. Yeah. And then obviously on the other side of it, you'll have like car commercial style.

So like there's a guy in our market, uh, he has 10 locations. I don't actually know how much revenue, but it's like him with a plunger and he's just like, Hey, I could fix your toilet. Pretty low quality stuff. So like, so 

Tony Castellucci: it's a balancing act. Yeah. So I, I think, you know, I slam some agencies for pushing digital for profit.

I do the same thing with production a lot of time. Okay. It is a profit cash cow for most production shops. Oh, sure, sure, sure. But I think it's a fine line. I mean, we do business with home service companies that their HQ is a rusty shed. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but your [00:58:00] TV commercial is your showroom.

That's how you're perceived. So you wanna put your brand on something that is going to portray Okay. How you wanna be. Okay. At the same time I see people spending 20, 30, $40,000 on this cinematic commercial. Listen, as a, as a agency that is trying to drive ROI and is trying to prove ROI for TV and everything else that we're touching, um, you're putting me behind the eight ball by 30 grand if you do that.

Oh yeah. You sure you can get a decent spot? Cut for little to no money in most cases. Yeah. 

John Wilson: Like what do you think? 

Tony Castellucci: Oh, I mean we have tons of clients that will work in as part of the deal with the station. Hey, if 

John Wilson: even though, even though I was gonna buy the station, see and like my, my push, it might be pushback, but that would be a low quality ad.

Tony Castellucci: And it depends on your guidance and the collateral that you have as well. Okay. You have a brand guide if you have a good logo, if you [00:59:00] have, who's gonna have a brand guide? If I, I weirdly get a lot of brand guides sent to me. He blows my, that honestly is actively blowing my freaking, because somebody's nephew show me because I'm has a brand guide.

'cause they needed an internship there for the summer and it's just like some random, huh? Brand guide. Yes. I get those a lot. Weirdly enough. That's wild. Which I thought the exact same thing. I'm gonna have to chase down Joe Plummer for maybe I'm just like That's not a 

John Wilson: PDF. Yeah. Oh. I'm getting brand guide sent to me.

I think what, what I consistently find, like the older I get, is that I'm actually just dumber than I think I am. Because like there's a bunch of stuff, uh, that we just did very late. Yeah. Like, it's like, you know what, dudes don't get their frontal cortex developed to their 25, I think. Right? Isn't that That's still coming in.

Yeah. Apparently seen, like we just started budgeting and like, we'll do $30 million like this year, and this is the first year we've ever budgeted. Mm-hmm. And like brand guide, I'm pretty sure we got done last year. Yeah, 

Tony Castellucci: yeah. No, it's, it's up there but you don't need it. But what I found is it does, I mean, listen, there's a noticeable difference when [01:00:00] you pay, but to the, there's, like I said, it's a balancing act.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, it depends what you're doing, what you wanna come off. But you can do it relatively cheap. All so you don't have, if you're starting especially over produced now you're a brand here, so I mean, you can't put your name on something that's not a Yeah. But if I'm just starting out, I've only done billboards.

Yeah. And I don't want to skew my ROI assessment by shelling out $10,000 for my 30. Yeah. No, I'm gonna, yeah. Work. We can usually steer you and write the script for you. Yeah. And say B-roll, stock images, green screen shoot. You can make them pretty good now. I mean, there's AI out there that can make spots.

Well that, that was actually my next question is like, there has to be AI to do this. Yes. System. If you don't wanna be on screen, you can get a commercial done by ai, which is weirdly good. Yeah. Like, like do, do you know of any names of uh, they're popping up left and right? I have one, so just probably, I just was poking around on, I can't think of the name off the top of my head, but they're out there just Googling.

Yeah, but [01:01:00] you still need to have kind of the framework belt. You have to guide it. Here's what I wanna say. Here's the mm-hmm. There still needs to be that proven flow, but can it do that, you know, heavy lifting the production side of it and make an HD quality spots by just pulling images and stuff off the internet.

That's wild. And adding a voiceover that sounds just like me and you talking right now. It's, it's insane, huh? For like a hundred bucks or less, you know, just, that's crazy. But flip side of that, you can't film yourself. And whether we want to admit it or not, some of us have, you guys won't be on the screen, so I get that too.

I have a huge ego. 

John Wilson: I started a whole podcast on this, man. 

Tony Castellucci: Hey, if it's your brand, if you're the brand, you're the brand. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That. Yeah, that is interesting. Now I wanna check this out. We've been doing, um, we've been doing like conventional. Uh, so the first one we did, well actually the, the very first time we were on TV was 2020.

Yep. And what we did was, I, I'm pretty sure we hired someone off of Upwork. [01:02:00] It was 400 bucks and they gave us like an illustrated movie. Oh, okay. Uh, okay. He doesn't like this when, is it like the whiteboard things or No, no, no. It wasn't a face. No, it wasn't. No, it wasn't that. I still can't believe. Alright guys, if you're still doing that, it's 2020.

It's time to move on. Um, but no, it was like a cartoon. It was a cartoon, so it was like a fake plumber walking in and like, okay. Water blowing everywhere. And yeah, it was a thing, it was custom, whatever. Um, that was the first time we were on tv. Gi gimme a thought here. If you're 

Tony Castellucci: just starting on tv, I. You don't, you don't get to play yet.

You gotta just get, get to the chase. Is that playing? Yeah. A I didn't see it, but, okay. I mean, here's me, here's my brand, here's why you should call me. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Interesting. I, I look at marketing sometimes as, as three phases. So you got to, um, you gotta enter it and, and conquest and, and then you're defending.

And once you are that name, you gotta defend your territory. Was that all three? No. And then, then the third [01:03:00] is dominate. I'll enter. Um, there's usually another adjective I used from, I'm drawing a blank, but Yes, you're entering the market. Then you have to defend your turf. The market's trying to catch up.

They're punch in back. Yeah. Yeah, 

Speaker 4: yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: That's where you can be a little. Stage two is where, where you could start to have fun. Okay. You could start to do some things that differentiate you. Like funny, weird shit on TikTok. Keeps your brand fresh. Yeah. That someone isn't going to say the exact same thing and yeah.

Try to steal your share. And then three is where you're, you're, you know, you're going out there, you're competing with the nationals, you're competing with Angie, yourself. You're not just competing with, you know, Wilson 2.0 on the street. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: Um. So I think, I think we're in stage two. You're in stage two, you're in stage two, approaching three.

You could probably take some swings at three if you want. You want to fight Angie? We'll do it. What, what do you think that looks like? I mean, you're morph into a regional man, so, I mean, you know, that's our active project 'cause we're 

John Wilson: prepping to go regional. Yeah. It is interesting to like scale's your friend.

Yeah. Tell you that. It's interesting to, it's an interesting mindset shift. Yeah. I was just like, hey, who, who's, who am I actually competing [01:04:00] against? And like, what, what should I be thinking about and caring about? Going regional is like a 

Tony Castellucci: totally regional, I mean you're, you're taking a swing at yourself in every market.

I mean, there's one tent pool game. Yeah. Yeah. Market. Yeah. And then you're also dealing with the lead aggregators. Yeah. Yeah. And then you have to really focus on efficiencies because using the, the spear approach, the high CPM approach, the one-to-one approach doesn't play well when you're showing it out.

Times five. Yeah. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Our goal next year, um, and we're still like thinking through how to, how to do it. We're at the end of the year. We're either gonna acquire, uh, someone. So if you wanna be bought, gimme a call. So we're either gonna acquire somebody or we're going to launch a new market in, um, like about an hour away, hour, hour and a half away.

And we have like four choices. Two are my favorites. And we're really thinking hard about like, what does that, what does that look like? We've talked to some people that are a step or two ahead of us. Uh, one of the advantages of having a podcast, you get to bring on smart people and grill 'em [01:05:00] just like this.

How they enter the market is just like. Wow. I are, we actually ready to do that? So they'll go into these markets and this is like ego in Columbus and, and Aaron's awesome and his team is awesome. And they're like really delivering and they're, they'll just start off in a market and spend 80 grand a month and like, period.

That's it. And like mass media, billboards, like just freaking blow it up for 36 straight months. I'm a big, I'm a big proponent 

Tony Castellucci: of the, uh, the, uh, jail courtyard approach. Find the biggest dude and punch 'em in the face. Just come out swinging. Okay. You know, uh, again, that's where you got, you gotta have your efficiencies.

So, Hey, I wanna make a splash tomorrow. How do I do it? Yeah. Doing hundreds of thousands of people at a time. Billboards, tv. The only thing I'll say here though, if you're multi-market digital, generally speaking, you can cut and paste when you get in. Traditional media, every market has nuances. Oh really?

Billboard locations change. Radio formats are popular and less popular. TV dynamics change with audience flow. Really like Yeah. Walk me [01:06:00] through it. Like why is that different? You know, good Morning America and Cleveland, you know, maybe the a BC station here sucks, but you know, in Erie it's, you know, the A, B, C is the P gorilla, so their ratings, I mean, there's just that little nuances where you can't just say, here's my schedule that I run in Cleveland.

Mm-hmm. Go Denver. You know, it just, there's different things to it. Interesting. Um, so on the traditional side, especially, you have to a little bit like station driven nuances. Yes. Stations, programs, um, you know, there's markets that are better for billboards than others. Um, there's some, it's an inventory play.

Yeah. So if you have, you know, cities that really monitor and limit the locations of billboards and how many billboards are out there, then all of a sudden those, those prices go up. You have, have. Markets that, you know, I don't know if you have it here, Lamar, it, it's Monopoly. Oh yeah, yeah. 90% of, I'm pretty sure they, yeah, they're right in.

Check who we deal with here. Here's what you're gonna pay me. So if you have some other secondary players that drops the price down a little bit. Yeah. And then digital outta of home, digital outta of homes catching on. It's taking a chunk [01:07:00] out of it. That's what, what is that? Um, you know, your ability to get on gas station pumps, uh, digital billboards.

Oh, sure, yeah, yeah. Things like that. So that's, yeah. Like what is that? Is that good? It's not bad. It's way easier than a billboard, which, you know, depending on the billboard, like my gas station might be locked into a year contract by owning a marquee billboard where I can buy a digital one down the street for a c ccp, M based buy, like digital ad.

Yeah. Are those more expensive or less the digital ones? They're say a little less. Just 'cause there's no printing. A little less, I mean, again, you're, you're giving upscale. I mean, if you're buying a giant billboard on the turnpike, you're gonna get all that. Even though they're not quality impressions, you're still getting all that eye traffic.

A gas station pump, unless it's like the best sheets or Wawa ever is not getting that kind of kind of traffic flow. But actually that would be kind 

John Wilson: of a funny way to like recruit. Like specifically sheets. Dude, plumbers love sheets. 

Tony Castellucci: You shit sheets. Yes. And even you wanna talk, [01:08:00] I talked about why radio sucks.

Where radio's good. Is that, is recruitment, that's a good recruitment tool because where are you listening to it? Driving job to job. I feel like 

John Wilson: sports talk shows would kill for that engaged listening. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I had this guy, um, this was years ago. I'm sure guys do it now still, but like one specific guy, he would listen to eight straight hours of sports talk shows a day.

And I'm like, yeah bro, are you good? Like, that's crazy. 

Tony Castellucci: I mean, I'm the same way I listen to, if I listen to A MFM, it's sports talk radio and then it's either Spotify 

John Wilson: or series. Okay. Or, um, that serious. I'm gonna ask a dumb question like what actually is for stock radio? It's just like you're just talking about like the game that happened, game, you know, drafts coming up for the NFL and there's enough content 

Tony Castellucci: on that.

Oh, it gets repetitive. Okay. Okay. But I'm like, how, I mean, I know we're going down complete, you know, sod reds here, but I mean, if you're a gambler, you know, gambling [01:09:00] legalized. So a lot of gamble ramifications. I think that's part of the reason why. So that's like viewing, researching sports. Okay. But that part of it, especially depending on your market, but usually there's a loyal fan base.

So typically within the time of year, I mean, I would think the Cleveland, Indiana ends up here pretty, pretty big subject. You know, I wanna be all in. Yeah. On the guest. If I'm a, if I'm a fan I'm not, but if I was a fan, I'd want 'em here. But where talk radio, not even necessarily sports talk radio, it could be news radio as well.

Okay. Any talk radio? I am invested in the conversation. Totally. If 

John Wilson: I'm listening, it's intimate. It's, I mean, it's like a podcast. Like a podcast is an intimate experience. 

Tony Castellucci: Mm-hmm. So I'm less likely to flip over a channel when it goes to commercial, which is essentially how I look at it. If I'm on Hits one and they go to commercial, I'm flipping the Hits two.

Yeah. Um, or not listening at all, but yeah, that I, they tease, I wait, I listen to the commercial, I come back and hear the rest of the conversation. Yeah. Either it's politics, news, sports, you [01:10:00] name it. Does it have like higher CPMs or, um, I haven't looked, not, I mean, it, it depends on the audience. It's really not as much about talk versus non talk.

It's as the audience there. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: If, if it's a dominant show that is well sold, then the Ccpm goes off, it could be a dominant show that's not well sold and the ccpm will be lower. 

John Wilson: Do you feel like in media buying, I think there's a, there's a delicate balance of like CPS driving and like, is it the right or sorry, CPM driving and like, is it the right audience?

Like, is there ever an argument for just like, what is the literal, cheapest way to get to. A million people. Hmm. I'm gonna give you a scenario. Go ahead. This is a scenario that somebody gave to me. Is there a cheapest way to get to a million people? Like should you just always optimize for the cheapest way, for the maximum amount of eyeballs?

Tony Castellucci: Um, not necessarily. Not necessarily. If you just wanna reach a million [01:11:00] people, I mean, buy a Superbowl commercial, be done. But that's, you don't have the frequency. Mm-hmm. Nobody is. Oh yeah. We didn't even talk yet. Yeah. Um, you know, I love sports, but you're gonna get a very low return. That's not, that's not stage one for an h hu home service company.

If you're expecting the phone ring, I am not stopping watching the game because I want to call you. Right, right, right. Um, that's where, first off your friend, first off, hurtful. Yeah. No, no offense. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: Um, I will next time. Thank you. Thank you. Um, but news I will. So, okay. So it really depends on your goals.

If you just wanna reach a million people. Here's a Super Bowl commercial, you reached 80% of the market. In 30 seconds, you're done. But 

Speaker 4: yeah, 

Tony Castellucci: very rarely will that succeed. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: Um, there's a balance to it. Again, reach frequency CPM that all goes into it. Program, makeup type, you know, generally speaking, the price is right, is great during the daytime if you want that older crowd.

Okay. Generally speaking, good Morning, America and today's show are great [01:12:00] options for in Fluent Woman. 

John Wilson: And those are just like nationwide. Both of those are nation Okay. But they have those so easy to identify in any market. Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: Usually there's some version. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, those programs are in every market.

Those are, those are, um, either NBC's, uh, CBS or um, a BC controlled station or programs. But there's similarities. Yeah, like, so I'm saying there's nuances and maybe that's, they suck, but genuinely speaking, jeopardy, wheel of Fortune, it, uh, that actually bounces around on different stations, depending on the market you're in, but.

Um, like the number one show with any demo with a plus behind it, 25 plus 35 plus, it's like the number one show in most markets. Wheel of Fortune. Wheel of Fortune in jeopardy. Still around. Sage ACT's gone. Trek's gone. Still kicks. That's amazing. So, um, so yeah, like prime time, prime time's completely changed.

There's been a huge shift back to what I said earlier. I mean, a lot of people have taken, a lot of the bigger national players took money away from the good old [01:13:00] bread and butter. And that's where a lot of people are cleaning up. Prime is now wide open, late fringes, wide open. Wide open isn't like anybody can average inventory level Again, an inventory pressure inventory drop Prime tv.

Not Amazon Prime. Amazon Prime, prime Time on time. No, Amazon Prime. They, they try to flex on their CPMs. Okay, we'll come back to reality, but like prime time and, and not necessarily you wanna be there. And then you also gotta think, when are people gonna call me? Yeah. Am I gonna call a plumber at eight 30 at night watching SVU or.

Some fire show, whatever that new show is. I just saw a teaser for No. So, you know, one, am I prone to call? I'll be doing regular call hours. Maybe I'm just doing, and that's where Creative Izing, maybe you're promoting your emergency service after six. 

John Wilson: Yeah, yeah. Well we have this like website pricing tool.

Mm-hmm. That you can price a system. We, we get like a lot of hits on it at post 8:00 PM Yeah. Isn't this, so maybe that's like an argument for that sort of, 'cause nobody seems to want [01:14:00] that slot. Or is that still Prime time? What's Prime time? Prime time is, um, eight o'clock to 11:00 PM generally speaking. Oh, okay.

So I would, I would be getting prime time. Yeah. Is that bad? 

Tony Castellucci: What's that Prime? Like is it GT running? Not anymore. I mean, it's expensive, but the price has come down significantly. I mean, when you think back, if you're, I mean, I'm in my late thirties, um, I. You think back to the tgis of the world destination tv.

I'm gonna sit down on Friday night pbcs line up 'cause I like, boy the meets world or stuff like that. Yeah. These days are gone. Yeah. If you're gonna watch shows like that, you're watching it on a streaming device. Yeah. Where it's shifted as news and things like that. There's still a lot of people there, but not as merely as it was.

But to your point, like what you just said about that online pricing tool, even going back into your biggest asset, which is your CRM data, it's conversations like this. Like, if we get some of our best creative and best call to actions by talking to business owners and getting their input, Hey, what are you seeing?

Yeah. We got a real estate guy, a home buyer and seller. Hey, I'm getting a lot of pushback 'cause they think they have to take away all of [01:15:00] the furniture and stuff that, that they leave. Oh, cute. How I'll take care of that for you right into the spot. Yeah. That's lights up. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: I mean it's that correspondence back and forth that, uh Yeah.

And your boots on the ground, so, you know. Yeah. Um, that can move the needle as well. So don't 

John Wilson: be a, I think that's been a big learning curve for us. Yeah. With, uh, like the more we've spent, I. We started working a lot more with like, lead aggregators, Angie Lewis, thumbs Thumbtack, uh, modernize. Like the more we get into it, we, we didn't really know we had to provide feedback.

We were just sort of like, okay, yeah, like we, we did the thing. Um, again, you haven outgrown lead aggregators. You still, like, you're still heavily invested. So our marketing mix right now is we spend it ramps in, it changes in May. We are adding billboards. I, I think it's the, it's bad. I'm not saying nothing's bad.

I'm saying I have, I have my own opinion and I'm still doing it. But, uh, so like right now we spend [01:16:00] 160 grand a month. It jumps up to 180, I think in, uh, may. Uh, and like just Q ones like, uh, tough time. So we, we, you know, ramped in, uh, to spend. So, but currently the way it works. 70 grand a month is lead generation spend.

That used to be my entire marketing budget was the 70 grand and it was all lead generation spend. And then we've just been consistently adding on and on and on. So 70 grand is lead gen. And of that lead gen, half of that's LSA and the other half is a bunch of random shit lead aggregators. I mean a lot of lead aggregators.

Uh, then 20 to 25 grand a month is, um, events. Okay. And that includes salaries. Okay. So that's like, we do door knocking, we do events, do raw is good. Like it's been really interesting. [01:17:00] Um, like we sold it costs, it costs 20 grand a month. Just said that. And we, we did 180 1 in sales off of events, leads last month, home shows, things of that nature.

Yeah. Home shows. Uh, not door to door yet, 'cause it was snowing, but like, we'll start door to door again here shortly. Um, like it's out of the eighth of the month and we're 90 grand into the month on event, uh, leads. It's really good. So that's been really interesting. Um, so that puts us at 95. We spend 40 on mass media, and that is gonna be 30 on t 30 combined of tv, OTTI think it's like 25 5.

And then we spend seven on radio, like 37. What that could be too. One 30 ish, 1 35. And then the back 15, 20 is we include marketing salaries inside the budget. And then we have a bunch of softwares and like tools. 

Speaker 4: Uhhuh, 

John Wilson: like our, you know, we have a tool that costs two grand a month and that's how we text all our people every [01:18:00] day, basically.

Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, it's still a big part of our budget because we, like, we think of marketing as like two very different buckets of. Hey, how do I solve my problem nine months from now? Yeah. And that's like brand, that's tv. That's like making the phone ring nine months from now and how do I solve it today?

And that's lead generation. Yeah. No, we, 

Tony Castellucci: um, well I think we have different pH one day, we'll hash this out, but I would break down that wall. TV is lead generation. Yeah. Break it down. Uh, break down that wall. So 

John Wilson: again, yeah. How do I, like, how do you think I do it? Like how do you, what does lead generation TV look like?

Lead generation TV call now and you get a thousand bucks off an air conditioner. Like, is that it? Yeah. All right. Then 

Tony Castellucci: dial it back. High call volume days, certain programs. Yeah. Um, scale, making sure that CPNs attractive. I mean, I'm, I'm really surprised. Usually once a customer, once a home service client gets over, you know, three to five mil, they're dialing back lead aggregators.

'cause it's more hassle than it's worth. They don't close. [01:19:00] They just, it's, you know, it's, she's taking tv. Oh no. See, I, you are right about that. Yeah. But. 

John Wilson: You add it back in, you add, so add, you got out of it through. Right? And now just to keep yourself forward, you, well, you add it back in. So like first 3 million bucks you're looking for leads anywhere you can find it.

So you turn on everything. The problem is you don't have a sophisticated sales program. You don't have trained salespeople. You don't have a good follow up process. You don't have like the mechanisms to drive a sales forward business. So you stop closing those leads or you can't rehash on them as quick.

But like Angie's lead, if, if you're an owner and you're doing 2 million bucks and you're gonna lead off Angie's List, you're gonna beat the fuck outta that thing. 'cause it costs you 150 bucks. Yep. But if it goes to your call center team and you're a $5 million shop, they're not gonna beat the fuck outta that lead.

So you lose it and you wasted, you wasted 150 bucks. Yeah. Yeah. But at 20, 20 million, 25 million, 30 million, whatever, you have enough of a tech stack that you [01:20:00] rebuild the process in. Lead ag become a pretty important part of leader. 

Tony Castellucci: So you're saying I acknowledge the lead isn't as good, but now I'm staffed enough and trained opt enough to 

John Wilson: Yeah.

Trained enough, maximize, and like, what are we willing to accept? Yeah. Right. So like if I'm a, if I'm an owner and I'm a small shop, I don't have the budget to fuck around. Mm-hmm. And but for us, and, and they're only looking at, like, I'll see this on Facebook groups a lot. Oh, Angie's list never works. 'cause uh, the leads are all bad.

Probably. Yeah. Like, honestly, probably a lot of 'em are bad. But if you get a sit rate of four out of 10, that's pretty good. Yeah. Like that's pretty good. Like you can work with that. Yeah. And you can optimize around that. Um, so I think it's just like really honing in on what's your actual, on your hat roas.

If I ignore the amount of shitty leads, did I get an eight times ROAS on Angie's? Yes. No. Did I get it on Google? Yes. No. [01:21:00] So you do end up adding it back in. 

Tony Castellucci: Yeah. And I mean, anything that's under 10 x in my opinion, you know, kind of threat out there. Yeah. If you're on TV and you're doing it right, 10 time ROI.

Yeah. How do I, how do you think I measure that? All those leads we talked about, Hey, I'm I, your commercial brand here, here's some leads that you just mark 'em in the CRM. Yeah. Here's where the, uh, where it came from. Then follow it through. Did it close? What percentage are you closing at? Um, I had a roofer in Florida.

Um, TV is double, they're, they're closing percentage double. Really double now. He's not doing everything now. On the, on the, 

John Wilson: like I got the media on the I am going to buy and the way we're measuring that, I'm just going to clear. Mm-hmm. It's like, is it a sub-domain or is it like, is it go to this specific URL that we tagged or is it They called within 20 minutes.

They called. They either said they saw him on tv, which some people still will. Okay. So they are doing a, I don't even think we ask at this point. 'cause our attribution 

Tony Castellucci: got so [01:22:00] dialed. We, I think we stopped bothering. I mean, again, I'm a TV guy through and through. I don't know if I've ever said that I saw you on tv.

I mean, I will 

John Wilson: to. Yeah, but not really. But I also feel like this is back to like last mile gets all the credit. Yeah. Like, yeah, they saw you on tv, but then like, oh, I found you on Google. So like it doesn't even feel real. Exactly. So 

Tony Castellucci: typically I say 20 minutes, but it's usually much low, lower than that usually.

That's really interesting. Spot take action. Get 1% of the market in the market. So then you follow that through And is it a perfect science? No. Yeah. But you can start to see, okay, I'm hitting the, the other thing. So double the conversion rate. And then the other thing is, again, back to that goal mind, just about every home service client we work with that is giving us intel into their inbound leads.

I. Their cost per lead and cost per conversion drops month after month. 'cause we're taking what doesn't work? We have a good idea what works. Yeah. I could probably come into your market and make a, if you're not doing tv, we can make a splash in day one. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: But then to keep dropping it, Hey, this station, you know, looks good on [01:23:00] paper.

It's not producing kick to the curb. That's take it and let's move it over to this station that is the evening news expand over here. So I mean, we see consistently dropping and um, you know, when that leak continues to drop and gets to a certain range, then it becomes more, um, appeasing or appealing to drop some of the other avenues that may not be anywhere close.

Doubling down. Yeah. Um, so yeah, just something to think about. But yeah, that's lead gen tv. Just keep call to action. Um, the math, the message and um, and the measurement. 

John Wilson: So what do you think, like what's in nor? Because I, at that point we're measuring cost per lead. Mm-hmm. Like, what if I, you launch something for a plumber?

Uh, you said you at one point had a Pittsburgh Plumbing client, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. So like how many leads would show up in that first 20 minutes for that one? I mean, it really depends. And 

Tony Castellucci: that's, that's, you can [01:24:00] pick anybody, roofing, anybody. Yeah. I mean, even with them, it really depends. You'll have a day, for whatever reason, it'll be slower and you'll only see, you know, one or two spots come here.

And then for seemingly, you know, there'll be days where it just, it spikes. I mean, there's still certain rhymes of reason that you can't quite account for. We have most of our home service guys doing, I mean, if you're on for a couple months, your cost per lead quality cost per lead is, is probably under 250 bucks.

We get you down under two. It's, it's considered a good range to be at. How do you measure? That's always a conversation. Yeah. And then b and then to your point, we have a hard time, there's a, there's a car, there has to be a conversation over. Am I just trying to make the phone ring or are we focusing on quality here?

Okay. Because the cost for conversion, I can't control it as much, but it's still important to me. And that, that's where the return return on ads Yeah, yeah. Comes from. So, um, 

John Wilson: do you think twenties re five, what's that like? I'm, I'm just trying to imagine mainly 'cause I actually don't know. I'm like really curious to rip open my own reporting and like, find trends.

'cause I have no [01:25:00] concept. Yeah. But like, is five leads in the first 20 minutes, like good or bad or? I, I'm sure it depends, but like, what do you think when I say that? It depends. I mean, it's, 

Tony Castellucci: it's, it's not as cut and dry as that. I mean, you're probably running hundreds of commercials a week, so every time a commercial runs, if you get, you know, two or three calls, that's, that's starting to be profitable.

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: Um, there could be a commercial run where there's no calls. Yeah. Um, so it's not like there's an average. Um, it's really looking for what's working, what's not. 'cause again, there's so many variables with mm-hmm. You know, daytime that CPM might be the same as the morning, but you're reaching only 10,000 people versus 30,000 people.

So then the, you know, the, um, expectations change. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: Um, but at the end of the month without, you know, paralysis by analysis at the end of the month in my 10 x or higher, we had a guy in January that was 28 times his return. Yeah. Sexy as fuck. Yes. Yes. He didn't take me out to dinner or nothing. Wow.

You're welcome. Wow. That's what we're here [01:26:00] for. That's what we're for. No, but I mean, that's the type of calls you love to hear. Yeah. And you can't guarantee that every month. But that's the goal. And, um, yeah. What what's the, yeah, what's normal like 8, 10, 11 on TV for home service? Just generally speaking, over 10.

I'd say probably for us 13 ish. Uh, Q4 last year was a little weird. 'cause I think there was a lot. I mean Yeah. But politics get, yeah. How, how does that, how does that work? Um, for the most part for our clients, lead flow didn't really change. Getting people to say yes really took a dive. People were really tight, like closing pockets.

Yeah. Yeah. They were tight. I need a new roof. I don't know if the world's gonna end next month. So s whatever side of the fence you're on. 

John Wilson: Um, I don't know if, yeah, I'm back to real curious about tariffs, you know, tariff week. 'cause I feel like that's exactly what I'm dealing with. This. There, there will be some hold back, but again, 

Tony Castellucci: emergency services won't be affected and can't sit on that.

People need to poop. Um, absolutely. It's raining a lot. If there's water drip through my roof or if my backing up, I can't not call you. Yeah. But may I not do a full bathroom [01:27:00] model if I can have hold out a month? Sure. Yeah. Maybe, you know something. Think about Yeah. But hopefully it'll all end soon.

Be back to normal. Always does. Yeah. But, um, you know, and different markets are affected differently. 

John Wilson: When we first, uh, when we first went on radio again back in 20 20, 1 of the things we did, I still don't know if it was a good idea. So you'd have to, you're, you know. So tell me. Um, but they were really foc I think, efficiency.

Like they were focused on efficient like costs, right? Mm-hmm. And what they told us to do, which might actually still be what we're doing, is they said, Hey, instead of going 52 weeks a year, you should go, I wanna say even spread, but every two weeks. So you take up half the month, and the idea is you feel like you own it for half the cost.

Like what? What's the take on that? 

Tony Castellucci: Um, big, big believer in that, okay. Even [01:28:00] with tv, um, if, but it depends on your, like if you have the budget to own four weeks, you own four weeks, okay? But if you only have 10 grand and really you need 20 to be on all four weeks, then. People don't know you're missing, but they know you're there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're not, you don't want, never wanna spread anything too thin. Okay. So if you're gonna do it, do it. Right. And if you can only afford two weeks, that's where you start. And then as you see, and like the guy we talked about earlier, 7,500 bucks a month, two do two weeks, that's probably one every week.

Yeah. No, I'm not talking every week. Okay. Most markets. Um, but you don't have to be, we have guys on two weeks, a month, some on three, some on all four. Yeah. It really depends on the budget, how aggressive, how much do you want, and how fast do you want it, um, is a good way to, to look at it, but, and just follow fitting within the budget to 

John Wilson: Yeah.

What do you, what do you think, um, what do you think about like, days of the week? Days of the week? Yep. Yeah, [01:29:00] 

Tony Castellucci: so generally speaking, your high call volume days for any home service company are gonna be Monday, Tuesday, maybe Wednesday. Yeah. So I always look at, um, you know, front half of the week. Is more service.

Healthcare back half the week is more your retail, automotive. Um, okay. Like I'm gonna car shop on Saturday weekend. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That tracks dealership high on, on Saturday. Yep. But, um, you know where Angie really killed it and one of her strategies for years and years and years, which she would own Sunday morning.

So she would go heavy, heavy, heavy on Sunday and then heavy Monday, Tuesday. So I'm doing my research on Sunday when I'm, when I got my down your house project, my Sunday, I'm looking at this thing, I'm watching a little bit of sports. Oh. So she would hit that. Not expecting calls, but if you do that, you'll see your web traffic spike.

People are researching you even though you're not accustomed to calling on a Sunday. And then boom, Monday, Tuesday, your phone should blow up. 

John Wilson: Yeah. What, yeah. You, uh, off [01:30:00] camera you had mentioned like you can you, you track it more closely Yeah. To. I guess, walk me through that. So, um, yeah, I mean, again, 

Tony Castellucci: back digital is, that's your safety net.

You're, you're catching them, right? Yeah. That's your, that's your baseball glove. So there's different types of technology continuing to emerge. We just, um, brought in a technology that's with our, our buying software that it actually plots out when a commercial, when a commercial and how much money you spent on TV or radio is on, and then verse your web traffic, um, sessions uniques, all of that.

So, and you'd be surprised. Commercial runs here goes your organic, here goes your sessions, here goes, your unique visitors doesn't run to your point with, with, um, you know, two weeks on, two weeks off. We do that with some, and you'll notice boom, web traffic goes down, flat lines. Hmm. Now there's caveats and that if your, a roof or a hurricane hits, then despite, yeah, yeah.

You're off. But again, stimulus controlled over sun [01:31:00] controlled TV runs, boom. TV is off down. 

John Wilson: That's fascinating. Yep. Yep. It's, I mean, now I wanna like, uh, we'll have to get this set up for like, future stuff, but now I wanna like, pull up my, my website and like, I wanna dive in. I'm really curious. Oh, yeah. I mean, 

Tony Castellucci: a hundred percent.

I mean, if you, if you have your inbound leads, and again, I have clients that have everything they'll share, they'll try to source them, um, you know, they'll have what landing page that came in on. Mm-hmm. That's all great. And I look at it, but really the number one thing is the date and time. If it's timestamped, I can go back and audit it based on what traditional you And we're pulling it off of like g like Google Analytics.

What? The timestamp, the like web traffic. How we'd, how we'd literally, no, that's inbound leads at your CRM. Oh. Oh oh. If you get a, if you can share web forms or any inbound leads. Yeah. Calls are web forms from either your call center or your CRM. Yeah, I have clients that send 'em to me. Um, weekly on [01:32:00] Mondays the same day that I'm getting post log times from TV and radio stations and I go back, okay, now the station set a commercial run at 7 58 on this day, and three leads came in between 7 58 and, you know, 8 0 8, 10 minute span.

So boom, I could see a correlation there. Yeah. So that's how, and then you, you, you highlight it, you follow it through, um, you stamp it with the time and the station. So again, you can optimize throughout. Mm-hmm. That's where you can really start to see that ROI. Yeah. I'm not web traffic's Great. Great. KPI love to see what's lighting up the analytics and Yeah.

But when it comes down to the actual inbound leads, how many of them can I make a case tie back to? Yeah. Additional marketing is, is usually the key. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. You know, as we're talking about this, I, I think what, um, what I kind of, I, I already said this, like how I think it's all the same, you know, the same thing and like it should all build on each other, but I feel like it's a cheap way.

It's a cheap [01:33:00] way to get more people to your website where you can control how you optimize that. And like, if you approach it that way, then I feel like that makes more sense to me. I mean the like diving into like, hey, there's an immediate, um, boost to traffic. Like I'm like, that goes back. That resonates as just as far as like how to tie it into like a comprehensive plan.

Hey, it's all about just what's like, is your website good? Can you convert once you're on your website? Mm-hmm. Awesome. How do we get as many fucking people onto your website as possible? Yep. As many people as possible with 

Tony Castellucci: a mission. You're inviting them there. They're going to listen. They're gonna come.

It really is as basic as, as branded versus unbranded traffic. If they are looking for you and not just a random plumber, that traffic is not only, not only do we see a correlation and yes, they're coming when we invite them to come. Now that traffic is higher quality than it's ever been. Yeah. I'm not shopping me around, but call me [01:34:00] right now.

And that's, that's really the difference whenever you Yeah. You combine digital. When you put digital on steroids, when you get your name out there and you're t top of funnel and bottom funnel, that's when a beautiful marketing baby is born. Nice. 

John Wilson: What, uh, what do you think? I, I feel like the pushback, you know, when I talk to my peers about like, Hey, are you doing tv?

Um, yeah, everyone thinks TV similar to radio. Like, oh, that's a dead medium. Or I hear, I hear TV's dying, radio's dying. You know, people are cutting the cord, whatever. Like, how do we, how are we thinking about the trend of, of advertising mass media advertising the trend? Um, 

Tony Castellucci: if you're advertising a cable that's dead, I think radio is dying and not so slow, painful death as well.

A not so slow. Yeah, no, it's escalating. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you look at some of the bigger ownerships groups, who owns a m fm radio stations, the, uh, ihearts Odyssey, bigger groups. I mean, they're [01:35:00] bankrupt. I mean, really? Yeah. They're in debt. Um, can't get the lights on. So I mean, I've been dead. I mean, there's, but not that much debt.

But I heard, uh, there's, there was ads running out too long ago. They're just trying to keep a m FM radio in cars. New cars don't even want put a m FM in there anymore. So there's like government battles going on if that should even happen. So between the ation Yeah. Sirius, 

John Wilson: Spotify that, um, yeah, I don't even know how to actually turn the radio on in my car.

Yeah. Like, I actually really don't know. I'm sure there's a way No, there's a way, but like it just goes straight to Spotify. Oh, yeah, 

Tony Castellucci: yeah. No, yeah. Pre-programmed, I mean, yeah, same. I mean, same with mine. I mean, I turn mine on and, you know, either XM or Sirius or Spotify pops on. Yeah. Probably lucrative for the auto dealers anyway.

Auto manufacturers. Yeah. They're getting some crazy deal look backs from Yeah. Satellite companies. But, and then it's also how you, I mean, I've never been a huge proponent for lead gen with radio, just because how you're consuming it, you're in your car again. Again. Yeah. For recruitment. Yeah. Not so good for, [01:36:00] for leads with tv.

It goes back to what I said before. If you're interested in reaching adults, 35 and older, probably own a home, which I would imagine a lot of home service companies do. Mm-hmm. Broadcast TV is still very much alive. O Oil 

John Wilson: is 

Tony Castellucci: like, what's my trend there? You got, I'm, I mean, I'm gonna say you got 10 year runway.

I mean, I'm tied to it, so I hope it's 10 years, but no, that 

John Wilson: there are other upgrades, like 10 year runway. So that, to me it is ramping down slightly. 

Tony Castellucci: The thing with tv, it is becoming more affordable based on pressure, on inventory, way faster than the amount of viewers they're losing. That makes any sense.

Okay. It's getting cheaper, faster than they're losing viewers. That makes, yeah, that makes sense. So it is more efficient than ever. 

John Wilson: Yeah. I mean, I was surprised at price points. Um, I mean, we, we came in punching, but I was pretty surprised by price points. And in, 

Tony Castellucci: in my particular opinion, I don't see how you could [01:37:00] possibly get rid of local news, repress, you name it.

The, these are you? No, those four stations. Yeah. Abc, ccb, S, Fox, NB, CI mean, that's how the community is learning about a lot of things. I mean, digital still doesn't have that kind of push that it does. Um, but there's also new technology. A TSC 3.0 has been in the works for a while. What is that? This is super nerd level T talk.

I'm here, but essentially they're merging. They're taking an over the air signal and then infusing it with an IP address. So at one point I'm watching the same newscast as my wife. She's downstairs getting a McDonald's ad for a salad. I'm getting an ad for a Big Mac upstairs. It's the same slot. I'm still buying the same inventory.

Yeah. Wow. So that's coming down the pipe. So, or has been in the works for a long time. It's gonna be the biggest change since they got rid of bunny ears. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: Know the old school antennas. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. 

Tony Castellucci: So it's, it's a big thing coming down. So that I believe will prolong broadcast for even having a, a longer shelf life and purely because it'll keep getting funded.

Funded. [01:38:00] Um, addressability is only gonna add to that. I mean, which probably everyone's biggest knock on broadcast is lack of targeting. What if, what if you could, what if you can get hundreds of thousands of people and also micro targeted creatives. Yeah. That would be interesting. Um, so yeah, I mean, streaming's gonna continue to grow.

Again, not a replacement, but a's supplementary. Yeah. What's the streaming market share versus broadcast? First of all, PSA 90% of the people I talk to who are doing streaming or OTT are doing it wrong and you're wasting your money. Alright, love that. 'cause you're not. Optimizing it. It's not a scale medium, so it's not gonna work.

John Wilson: Yeah. Well, like what, what's the, what? I'm gonna compare this to Google and chat. GPT. So like, hey, Google has 85 billion or whatever searches a day chat. GPT has 2 billion. Mm-hmm. Chat, GP t's search is going from 2 billion to like 3 billion in like a matter of months. So like quickly taking, yeah. What's, what are we seeing for like [01:39:00] broadcast first maybe an adoption 

Tony Castellucci: of, of stream, like how it's eaten away.

It's, it's, it's weird because the land, the ball continuously gets moved. Um, the current landscape we are in with, with, again, I'm nerding out. Yeah, yeah. But the current landscape we are in with streaming will not survive. Okay. All of these, the Paramounts, the peacocks, the Hulus, the ESPN pluses, there is not enough content advertiser, demand viewership for them all to independently, independently sell.

They'll go into bundle. 

John Wilson: They have been bundling. They will continue to bundle. So what that Yeah. 'cause like Disney's like a bunch of this shit now. Like Disney's got all these different things inside. 

Tony Castellucci: ESPN's, ESPN is totally pulling off cable, so you're gonna have to subscribe to ESPN plus if you want espn what?

In the fall. Really? Yeah. So it's gonna, is on broadcast still? That's on cable. ESPN's cable. So does it come free over the air? 

John Wilson: Interesting. 

Tony Castellucci: Yeah, that's a big one. I mean, a lot of the, the people that still are clinging onto their cable bundle are doing it probably because of a sports tie in an ES, espn.

Yeah. Or their local [01:40:00] sports net or for their hockey or their baseball games or whatever you have. Um, so when that leaves that it's, that might be the death. We'll see. That's wild. Yeah. Yep. And I even back to streaming, I then if anyone, if, if you're doing any OTT with, um. Comcast, any of those cable providers that also is selling streaming.

Mm-hmm. Uh, free tip, make sure that you are not letting them include video on demand VOD impressions because you're serving streaming impressions to buy around cord cutting to somebody who doesn't have cable knows video on demand. You have to have a set top box so it's repetitive. Um, um, and I know that's been a, been a big, big thing there, but, uh, yeah, no, I mean, there's, there's a million ways to mess it up.

That's why I always say, you know, bring somebody in, specializes in it and, um, you know, really vet that person to make sure that they know what they're doing. Lead with the results. 

John Wilson: Yeah. So if somebody wants to, if somebody wants to start, start off budget doesn't sound that intimidating. [01:41:00] 70, 7500 bucks a month.

That's, that's how you carve into it. Mm-hmm. What, what does the, like, how does it work? Like the whole process. Yeah. Like, Hey, I'm gonna, you know what I wanna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shoot like Tony here an email and be like, bro, let's LFG what happens? Conversation. 

Tony Castellucci: So first, I mean, I'm happy to jump on the phone or teams mm-hmm.

Or Zoom, whatever. Learn a little bit about you. We do. Um, the first thing we do is we jump in and we audit the market. So I'll look at media monitors. Yeah. Yeah. Who's advertising? What's the competitive landscape? What's the audience makeup, what's the budget? How's the budget? I mean, really marketing overall.

Yeah. It's not just a TV conversation, it's, you know, how are you set up? But as far as TV or any traditional media goes, you know, we do all the legwork. Again, we work on points. There's no, you're not paying me Yeah. To do the backend work. Uh, we're big believers in, you know, putting our best foot forward because if the R oi is instantaneous, then you're gonna stay with me a long time.

Yeah. First thing, shoot me an email or a [01:42:00] call and mm-hmm. Have the conversation and then wait a week and I'll come back with a recommendation. 

John Wilson: Yeah. And it's watermaker advertising. How can they find you on the internet? Want more-leads.com. Yeah. That's a fucking sick domain. That right? Yeah. Right. I mean, some people roll their 

Tony Castellucci: eyes every once in a while, but it's what we do.

John Wilson: No, dude, that's, yeah. That's killer. I always respect a good, uh, I always respect 

Tony Castellucci: a good domain. It's what we do. So, um, no, Wannamaker was, uh, he was famous for saying half my advertising works. The other half dozen don't know, which we just dunno which kind Yeah. Which, which half is which. Yep. So we went with that route.

But, uh, no, I love it. So we're Golf trophy too and we're a golfer. 

John Wilson: Alright, so we, man, we covered a ton of ground. So we covered, uh, I mean we covered digital and how it makes sense. We covered when to enter. We covered quality of content, how to get into media buying, how to measure, which, that was really interesting.

I'm gonna personally listen back to this and, uh, see what we can do to tighten that up. What, what are your like final tips or takes on traditional media? 

Tony Castellucci: Traditional media can't [01:43:00] compare to its scale. And I know I might have sound a little Debbie Downer on digital, but I. They go hand in hand. Yeah. Putting your digital efforts on steroids and how to make synergy happen.

Yeah. By combining scale with that, you know, the last touch at the bottom funnel of a stop. Yeah. Um, making it all work together. 

John Wilson: 10 xing, whatever budget you got. Yeah, I agree. And I'm, I'm really excited to like watch, uh, I I gotta go check my own stuff and like, yeah. What is web traffic in the first hour of a you 20 minutes?

I've, I didn't think I've ever looked at that. I, I can't believe 

Tony Castellucci: the findings that I find. It's, it's under bus. You guys are busy, man. 

Speaker 4: Yeah, 

Tony Castellucci: yeah. Business. Yeah. Yeah. Now you got a lot going on. It's a good excuse. Thank you. I get it. That's why we're here for it. And I'm sure we're not the only ones. We just happen to be the best at it, but, um, you know, that's the SL 

John Wilson: work, just a little effort involved.

Cool. Well, I appreciate you coming on today. Uh, this was a ton of fun. I feel like I got a masterclass in traditional media. Thank you. And new 

Tony Castellucci: studio's. Awesome. Happy We can christen it and kick it off with, uh, on a good note [01:44:00] here. Sweet. Awesome. Thanks John. 

John Wilson: If you like what you heard, uh, make sure you go to owned and operated.com.

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