Owned and Operated - A Plumbing, Electrical, and HVAC Business Growth Podcast

#218 Why $20M Doesn’t Mean You’ve Made It

• John Wilson • Season 1 • Episode 218

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In this episode of Owned and Operated, John and Jack unpack what leadership looks like inside a $20–40 million home service business—and why that size still feels small. They explore how companies in this range often remain personality-driven, even with impressive revenue, and what it really takes to level up. From forming HR and marketing departments to structuring a true senior leadership team, they dig into the growing pains and leadership gaps most businesses face on the way to maturity.

The conversation dives deep into leadership development, internal promotions, and when to hire key external roles like controllers. John and Jack share why the sophistication of a business doesn’t always match the revenue—and how building the right team early creates long-term stability and growth. If you're scaling past $10 million and thinking about what’s next, this episode lays out a real-world playbook for building a well-rounded, leadership-driven operation.

🔹 In This Episode, We Cover:

 What leadership looks like at $20–40M in revenue
 Why revenue doesn’t always equal business sophistication
 The challenges of building a senior leadership team
 Promoting internally vs. hiring externally
 When to build HR, marketing, and finance departments
 How leadership development programs drive retention and growth
 Creating a stable, mature business beyond personality-driven leadership

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Jack Carr 

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John Wilson, CEO of Wilson Companies
Jack Carr, CEO of Rapid HVAC

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218 Transcript

John Wilson: [00:00:00] Today on the show, Jack and I and I won the argument, talked about different size of the company, what leadership looks like, and how to build a senior leadership team for, uh, 20, 30, $40 million business. So enjoy the episode. It was a good discussion and I was right. Always enjoy the episode. It was always, John

$25 million is not what I thought it was. When we were, when I was, you know, growing and all this stuff, you know, 20 million to me was like, oh my God. Like I've made this joke before. Yeah. I thought at $20 million we would have it all figured out. And $20 million is still a fucking small business. Like it's a small business.

Yeah. It is personality driven. If you're HVAC alone, 

Jack Carr: I was just gonna mention 

John Wilson: that that might only be 50, 60 people. 

Jack Carr: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Like 300 to 350,000 revenue per employee is really common in hvac. In plumbing. That's probably a hundred. 

Jack Carr: I think if you were to generally look up though [00:01:00] average numbers of employees at, at any business, at any given time, I think if you're running a 60 person business and employing 60 people, that's still a pretty decent sized business.

On the average. I mean, you have Amazon at one end that employs hundreds of thousands. There's also a lot of really small 

John Wilson: like. So if I'm looking at like sophistication of the business, I agree. Yeah. So like 50 employees, you might not even have an HR person yet. Like your accounting department is probably one person.

Jack Carr: Yeah. 

John Wilson: You just started having to deal with FMLA and you're not even having to deal with the actual shit that starts to happen later on as a business. Yeah. Legal's not a thing yet. Contracts are barely in existence. Mm-hmm. Like $20 million is a small business. Like it's small. I don't know. I mean. 

Jack Carr: Like the, if you were, it's a 

John Wilson: lot of dollars.

Like if I had 20 million land in my personal check and I'd be like, 

Jack Carr: Hey, that's cool. I, I won't disagree with you on, on parts of it. I, I think that [00:02:00] inherently right. If you were to look at all HVAC companies and pick out a me mean median in mode, if going back to sixth grade, um, 

John Wilson: yeah. 

Jack Carr: The, the median company is much less than 20 million.

John Wilson: I'm not saying that for the industry, they're not small. 

Jack Carr: Yeah. Or 

John Wilson: they're, sorry. They're not big. I'm saying like as a, the, the quote I've, the quote I've been using is just about any asshole can get a business of 20 million bucks. I really think that they can, after seeing, I've seen into like dozens of these things.

Now they're not that complicated, like 50, 60 employees, like we have 160. So to me, I'm looking at a 60 employee team and I'm like, oh my God. So walk in the fucking park. Yeah, you have probably like two managers, like a couple people in the call center. Like it's just not. Is nowhere 

Jack Carr: near the level of sophistication that I agree.

I think from a sophistication level, it's right at that turning point. So my, my mentality, and this is probably the same mentality that you came into and, and we're you looking back, you go, oh, I [00:03:00] was wrong. Or maybe that was the goal and once you passed you and Oh, it really is small. Um, but my mentality currently is that the 20 million mark is where you can actually start hiring C-Suite team and it starts to get easier.

So you rock around, I don't think so. 20 20 million. You could put a. A CFO in place? A CMO? Nope. Nope. Too small. Too small. Yeah. 

John Wilson: It's 

Jack Carr: 60 people. Yeah. Or 

John Wilson: like eight 80 people at the max. 

Jack Carr: It's no secret that my office here in Nashville is almost completely empty. So how do I support my team as well as have great growth metrics?

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Affordable, reliable, and trained in all of the [00:04:00] industry best practices. Quick staffers can help you cut that overhead, boost conversions, and scale your business fast. So don't waste another lead. Visit quick staffers.com and transform your business today. Yeah, it's not that many people, and I think there's a differentiation, right?

I will say I agree with you, but I do think that there's a differentiation between a 60 person, HVAC only company 100%. And like three plumbing or something like that. Yeah. Two $10 million. HVAC and plumbing, and then one, you know, $1 million. Electrical or some, some, or, because, 

John Wilson: because our revenue, like we've got drains, we have, uh, hvac, plumbing, electrical restoration, like our headcount to revenue looks different Yeah.

Than, um. HVAC only like our headcount to revenue. I think we're at like two 20 per employee. Yeah. Uh, 300 something per field person, but two 20 something per employee. Yeah. 

Jack Carr: Which makes sense. 'cause like I was, I was salivating over buying a [00:05:00] business the other day. I was like, yes, this is a good business, good name.

Then I broke 'em in the books and it's like, okay, this business really is mostly an HVAC company, like 60%. And then the other break was in. Plumbing and electrical. Yeah. But like a two man plumbing team, a two man electrical team. Yeah. Or like a one man plumbing team, one man electrical team. And when you break it down like that, this $3 million company really is a $2 million HVAC company.

And they decided that they're gonna do too much with Yeah. These other two things that are just gonna drive headaches. So, 

John Wilson: yeah. 

Jack Carr: You 

John Wilson: know, it, it's much, well, you know, there's, I'm, I've been talking with a lot of multi-location operators and. I, I think I, I, I understand that, you know, this all started 'cause I said 40 million like isn't that much and I still roughly agree with that.

I think it's mostly like headcount related. Uh, so, you know, take that for whatever you want, but I think 40 million is just not that much. If 40 million is like 200 employees for, for us. So that's [00:06:00] so, you know, complicated business, but. You know? Yeah. 

Jack Carr: Doubling down, John is doubling down. Doubling on 40 millions, not that much.

Doubling down. Doubling down, I guess. And maybe it's double clicking. Maybe it's, it's 

John Wilson: within, I, like I can see it like 40 millions next year for us. I'm like, yeah, I not that much. Um. Say, 

Jack Carr: maybe it's just me. 'cause I deal with, um, a lot of people who are in the smaller, you know, three, 4 million really trying to break that first 5 million mark.

And you, and you remember it's a grind. It really is a grind early on. Yeah. And so we look at these numbers like 10, 20 million, 40 million as like this holy grail of, oh, once I get there it'll be better. But ironically, the thing that I've figured, found out by working directly with you, um, is that the problems are actually the same.

I. Like it's the same, you still have the same headcount issue, you still have the same cash flow issues. It's actually almost, it does. It doesn't go away. It's almost worse. [00:07:00] Yeah. I mean, because you miss by 20% at, if my goal is 150 K and I miss by 20%, it's like, well that's two units. Yeah. I gotta sell two more units next month.

Like I can make that up for us. It's a hundred jobs. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot of work. And that's almost scarier for me to a point to like I've, I've idolized this position of 20 or 40 million. 20 million's been my idolization. Like I want 20 million by 2030. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so like, I can finally hire C-Suite who can like, help me out and you're here, you're just killing my dreams.

But, um, 

John Wilson: well, you, you can't, well, I think like you could hire some people, but, uh, yeah. Like we're not even a CFO is sometime in the next couple years, but A CFO needs enough money to do something with, like they're, you know, that's a sort of a core part of their job. And, uh, like, is our reporting tight? Is our accounting pro like there, there needs to be a lot of other stuff in place before A CFO can come in and actually do CFO level shit.

Yeah. If you just [00:08:00] want someone to close the books, that's not a CFO. Yeah, that's a controller. So just like maybe know who you're hiring for CMO. Like we're not even thinking about that. Yeah. Like some people talk about it at 50 million. So 210, 20 employees, you bring your cmo. Yeah. I think 

Jack Carr: it's more like e essentially it's, it's really just, yeah, you don't have a CMO, but you're not handling the day-to-day marketing operations.

Correct. Right. You don't have a CFO, but you're not handling the day-to-day finance operations. Yeah, and so when I say C-Suite team, it's not necessarily like the title of a C-Suite person. It's more so the idea. 

John Wilson: Other people are handling, 

Jack Carr: the other people are handling departments where they're fully handling department, and you as the owner are no longer doing the individual tasks.

You 

John Wilson: still, you still own them, like, so to give perspective. Agree. But it's, it's a different ownership. No, I, I sit functionally. Mm-hmm. In the C-O-C-F-O and CEO seats today, I am the functional CFO. Yeah. Like the roles, the tasks that A CFO, that if I went and hired one off [00:09:00] market. Would perform would be like 30% of my time.

Yeah. So they would come, take that and then hopefully do a lot more. But like I'm sitting in that role, so we're, we're not there yet. Yeah. I, I think I, I also probably thought that CFO was 20 million, but like, ah, that sucks. It's just not, 

Jack Carr: yeah. 

John Wilson: And half of the education was, what does the CFO really do? 

Jack Carr: Yeah.

To be honest, I'm not a hundred percent sure. 'cause we see the terms fractional C, F, O, and C, you know, a lot of times on 

John Wilson: which I like hot take. I think the fractional CFO is kind of dumb. I hate this. Most of the time people just need 

Jack Carr: a controller. Controller, yeah, yeah. Controller. So we just need a staff accountant to be honest.

John Wilson: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think, well, so I made that mistake too, like, Hey, I just needed someone to literally do my accounting. Yeah. Like that's a staff accountant and maybe a senior staff accountant. Definitely a controller at 10 million. I was hiring fractionals, expecting them to solve it. And it's like they couldn't do anything because I didn't have an accountant like you literally need clean books for a [00:10:00] CFO that you do anything.

Jack Carr: Yeah. So, but that's the thing for like, you don't, don't need A CMO, but I do need somebody to manage the people who are managing the LSA accounts, the PPC accounts, the ROI on all those. You need somebody in charge of strategy who can handle the strategy behind, Hey, are we gonna do this or are we gonna spend it like this?

And so. I do think 20 million is that point where you can start making some really good hires. We built in senior positions. We built real teams. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. We built very real teams, I think. I think, uh, you, what does that 

Jack Carr: mean? Very real teams. 

John Wilson: Uh, so I just did this episode with Brandon. Yeah. And we, something that we've in invested a ton of time and energy and dollars into is elevating or bringing in senior leaders.

Mm-hmm. Frontline leaders too. But I'm really focused on the senior leader portion of the team. And, uh, so when we're talking about real teams, I mean, I have teams now that are performing not just tactical [00:11:00] tasks, but also strategic tasks. Okay. With a little to no supervision from me. Mm-hmm. So Jesse and I will have a conversation on something in marketing, and the impact is hopefully millions of revenue.

A hundred to 200,000 of cost investment and we'll like work through it. It was his idea. He brought it to me, we talked through it. His team executes on it. But like all of our senior leaders are doing something like that. Sales to fulfillment, to inside operations, to marketing, to finance everyone. Ha. So there's those five buckets of senior leaders.

Mm-hmm. Uh, HR six. So everyone's working on similar level of strategic projects. It's no longer this tactical day-to-day stuff. 

Jack Carr: So, th this is a really, I think, important question that, um. For me. So at that point, right, you have these teams in place. Yeah. You've done a good job. Jesse's talking to you. Yeah.

Um, marketing's talking to you, HR is talking to you. Yeah. You're this kind of, uh, top position that's dealing [00:12:00] with senior leaders. There's six of 'em, which is sounds about right for headcount wise and, and direct reports. Are you at a point though, where you could replace yourself because Right, or at more, more the better question.

For my personal sake is at 20 million. Were you at a point to be able to replace yourself? No. Effectively, 

John Wilson: no. But I also, I also didn't see that as an option. Yeah. Today's break is brought to you by owned and operated newsletter. Go to owned and operated.com and sign up for a twice weekly drop that we send to 40,000 contractors with actionable tips on marketing, hiring, and growing your business.

Join the 40,000 other home service contractors already signed up and learning. Enjoy the rest of the episode. So, so something that's been like recycling through my head a lot is when we had Michael Gurley on, it was like episode number three or four. Yeah. And, uh, love him. He's, he's a lot of fun. We're partners on whole co comp.

Um, and he, in that episode, I remember it, he was sitting inside his [00:13:00] software company, dura. He had just, he had just hired a CEO, I don't remember that guy's name, and they had just crossed 200 employees and he was sort of describing his day-to-day life. Mm-hmm. And his day-to-day life was, he was just like, I don't really know what to do.

Like, there's, which you, we've talked about this a lot. I'll, I'll get to it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't really know what to do at 200 people. Every single thing that could be done inside a business tactically, hands on something is being done by someone. Yeah. Like that is someone's job. Opening the mail is someone's job making coffees is someone's job.

Like everything is owned. There's no more floating tasks that the owner has to pick up with a bucket. Um, and that happened for us recently. Mm-hmm. Where. In total, like 162 employees in Wilson, but in total we're at 182. That's, you know, there's like a few other things in there. [00:14:00] So 182 team members, and we, I, there's nothing for me to catch anymore.

And so I, this is the point. We talk about it a lot when owners cross $3 million where they cost 3 million. They're like, well, I'm kind of out of the day to day. And what they mean by that is they're no longer turning wrenches. 

Jack Carr: Yeah. 

John Wilson: And they're like, well, what do I do? So then they go buy a boat in a lake house or whatever.

I'm not gonna go buy a boat account. Hey, go. But, um, but it's a similar like, oh, okay. Everything I have been doing is now functionally replaced. Mm-hmm. And a big part of why that happened, some of it's headcount, obviously we hit it before, uh, Michael did for whatever reason, different industry, I don't know.

But, uh, a lot of it was senior team, like the senior leadership team, like they are doing an incredible job. Like just really incredible job. Like every single one of them. They've all stepped up into this, like into real leaders, and I think that has made it so that I'm now sort of like, okay, [00:15:00] strategically, tactically, there's nothing left for me to catch.

If I, if I don't come into work today, we're still gonna do 150 grand of sales. Like nothing will change on our p and l. If I don't show up for the next week, I'm about to piss off for two weeks and like nothing's gonna change. The vibe. The vibe is gonna change. The vibe will change. The vibe will change.

There will be less high fives around the office, uh, which is good. That means we built a team that's very capable Exactly. Of just like running this ship. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I could replace myself or I could be like, what's the strategic thing I should be focusing on? So, you know, we've talked a lot about like leadership and how it develops as the company grows.

Like I'm in this new stage of leadership where I'm really focused on coaching the senior leaders. 

Jack Carr: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Because. If I don't show up for two weeks, it doesn't matter. Like vibes would be off and like that would be irresponsible. But like, if I wasn't on vacation, vacation's, good rest. But if I just like pissed off for two weeks, like I, I know these small business owners are like two or $3 million and they just like go on like a two week [00:16:00] bender.

Like, uh, yeah, so not me. But the senior leaders now, like they've taken on the brunt the, the weight that I used to carry. So your question was, can you do that 20 million? And the answer is yes. I didn't, yeah. And it was fully because our senior leaders just weren't there yet. I think if I had it, it, it's one of those, um, I've done it once.

I would do it differently now. Things mm-hmm. Uh, where I, like, I'm working on a project with some friends and it's growing fast. And I am approaching that, like, oh, we're at $5 million now. Uh, we're hiring senior leaders today. Yeah. Like, we're gonna solve this right now. Well, that, that 

Jack Carr: was 

John Wilson: kind of the question, right?

Where it's like, I, you know, but that's 'cause it doesn't matter. Like that's not, you know, we have the cash flow and it, it's like a different thing and I've done it, so I now I just know the steps. 

Jack Carr: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: Okay. Yeah. Okay, great. 5 million bucks, we'll probably be at 10 next year. [00:17:00] Uh, let's just hire a controller now.

Let's eat that salary. But I could have never made that decision. Yeah, because I didn't know the steps five 

Jack Carr: years ago. You didn't know the steps, the position, what the job looks like, didn't understand what they're supposed to do. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. It's an inch, so like you can do it at 20 million. Yeah. Like if I was regrowing a new business today and I was going from 10 to 20, I would, at 10 I would be hyper-focused on the leadership team.

Building 'em the way that we've done it now at 30. 

Jack Carr: Yeah. I was gonna ask, do you think that would increase velocity, or do you think that would slow velocity? Because Right. A lot of times the worry is, yeah. Well, a lot of times what actually happens, right, is a, you're too small. They're maybe at that eight to 10 million.

Yeah. They replace themself with A CEO or president or GM or whoever has p and l responsibilities. This person. It doesn't care that much. Yeah. Or they're not great at their job, or they haven't been trained well, you know, like the myriad of things that could potentially happen. Um, and then it slows velocity.

They get fired within a [00:18:00] year. Mm-hmm. Owners back in running it again. Um, do you think that there's a potential at some point, in what point is that where you could continue with that velocity at the rate that it's at? Because my belief is that it doesn't happen without multiple good leadership team in place.

Mm-hmm. You can't just. Change out the top and then hope it runs well. Yeah. It's like, hey, you need kind of multiple people who all understand culture, understand the drive, have fit, have worked, and that is the 20 million mark. 

John Wilson: Yeah. But 

Jack Carr: I, I'm open to your take on that. 

John Wilson: Yeah. I mean, I don't think it needs to be 20, um, like the, the, so rolling through our leadership team, you know, we, the most important investment that we've made in our team.

Has been our leadership development program. Mm-hmm. And there's two tiers and, uh, we just broke this down a ton with Brandon. Uh, one of the episodes aired. The other one I don't think is aired yet. But like we went kind of deep on [00:19:00] this, where we cover the first two tiers of leadership. We do not cover the third.

And that's a really big gap that we're gonna try to resolve in the next year. So we have a, now a way to elevate frontline team members to leaders. Consistently, like that's a now a machine. Yeah. So it's no longer a herculean push, a boulder up. It's just like, okay, this is a process now. Um, so I think that has made a lot of things easier because we have people who understand the business, the culture, the problems, the opportunities being elevated into leadership positions.

Mm-hmm. Uh, and it's like the best of us. Yeah. Core value. Like these are amazing people bought into what we're doing, being elevated, like it's awesome. Yeah. And then so half of our leadership team now at this point, half of our frontline leaders were promoted into that position from the field, which just crazy.

Yeah, that's incredible. Half of our, or not even half every single one. Our [00:20:00] senior leaders was promoted into their position from lower in the company. Some much lower. 

Jack Carr: Yeah. Like someone, uh, like that's like the stories of like the, the guy who used to wash dishes and then now is the ceo. Yeah. At one point.

It's always the, well, well, like I've talked 

John Wilson: a lot about Allie, uh, on the show. Ally came as a call taker. She's a director now. Mm-hmm. Like, she's literally damn near top of the org yard. 

Jack Carr: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Uh, but so Jesse came in as marketing manager. He's director of marketing now. It started with just him and now he has like 10 people reporting to him.

Yeah. And his team, uh, Paul came in, in sales management, director of sales, now 60 people in his vertical. Uh, Lori came in as call center manager. She now has 30 people in her vertical. She has dispatch call center. She has inside operations, which is like a lot. There's a lot going on there. So some people came in as manager, some people came in as uh, individual contributors, but they've all been.

Promoted 

Jack Carr: through there. 

John Wilson: Yeah, that's incredible. So I think they can happen, like if I was doing this again, what I would be focusing [00:21:00] on and I wanna focus on, let's say Lori for a second and we just did a great episode with her, like breaking out how to manage remote calls. I think that was like a month ago.

She's amazing. And if I was doing this again and I was at $10 million, I would be hiring amazing managers that I think could elevate to senior manager or director at some point. 

Jack Carr: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Because that has been the win for us, like having a Jesse and a Lori and an Allie and a Brandon who have all gone through frontline leadership, like they're directly managing the work being done, uh, whether it's call taking or technicians or whatever, and then being able to continue to move them up to the organization and like build teams to support excellent people.

Mm-hmm. That has been the win. So at 10 million bucks. I would like, if I came in and bought a $10 million company today and I had to replace the whole leadership team, I would just do it in one fell swoop. Like, how can I, how can I place six people immediately? [00:22:00] Because I feel like it would be solved by the time you hit 15.

Yeah. Like, they would need like a year to like get their feet under 'em, but then they're, 

Jack Carr: they're good to go. That's super interesting that, that's actually a lot of really good information. 'cause we, like I said, we're trying to get there in the next year. Yeah. So we'll be, we'll be. Crossing that and, and it's a lot of, it's a lot of movement.

John Wilson: Yeah. It's 

Jack Carr: a lot of movement. And if you try to move 'em up from within, now is the time to start that, that procedure. I think it also, yeah, if you 

John Wilson: can get people that are bought in now, yeah. Like we have some frontline leaders that are not yet, but within the next year, like they're gonna be ready for their vertical movement.

So we have to, you know, continue creating opportunity for 'em. But I think, I, I think being able to build teams under smart people. Has been. 

Jack Carr: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Like the win. 

Jack Carr: Well, and, and I mean from a cultural standpoint, from a upper mobility standpoint, is like you want people who are high achievers. You want people who are want to win.

Yep. And those people are not gonna stay somewhere where that they're stagnated growth. Yeah. There's no growth. [00:23:00] And so well even creating the opportunity, even outside of that, 

John Wilson: like operationally, our hit rate for hiring an outside manager, like our success rate is like 30%. 

Jack Carr: Like it's low. Well, and 'cause culturally they, they're coming into something that they don't necessarily understand no matter how We 

John Wilson: don't know them.

Jack Carr: Well, they don't 

John Wilson: know us. We don't know the team. They don't know the problems. Yeah. Like it's, it's, it's probably 30%. And, and that might even be generous. Yeah. Like we've had a really tough time over the years placing outside managers in. Now we have had some success stories. Mm-hmm. And they're doing great.

Like in hvac, we've got some great outside managers. Um, plumbing, we have, uh, one outside manager and they're doing amazing. But just in general, we've let go seven, you know, in sort of the same, you know, timeline. Uh, whereas our hit rate, like our success rate for promotion is a hundred percent. Like we have not fucked up a promotion ever for, for moving them up to manager.

So, so from [00:24:00] like a surety of success? Yeah, inside hires for sure. 

Jack Carr: Amazing. So what it sounds like to me to recap is 40 million is a tiny little business. Super small, not a big deal. If you're below that, screw you buddy. You don't know what you're doing. I, I think it's probably 

John Wilson: better to put it in relation to head count.

'cause I, I, I do struggle to see a business under a hundred employees as like that real 'cause you're still missing. Fundamental 

Jack Carr: systems, departments. 

John Wilson: I mean, you're, you're literally missing entire departments at a hundred people. You don't have an HR department. Yep. Like you probably have some outsourced HR thing.

Like you don't know how to handle HR at scale yet you don't have a full marketing department. You maybe have like a coordinator. Yeah. Your accounting department is one or two people. Like, it's just not, it's not like filled in yet. It's not mature. 

Jack Carr: Yeah. It's not a mature business. And with [00:25:00] that, there is.

Really great things that you can do early on though 10 million, 20 million is start to hire frontline leaders. Start training them. Yeah. Getting them ready for division managers or directors positions sounds like, which is awesome. 

John Wilson: Yeah. I, I would, if doing it again, I would've hired senior leaders. Much earlier.

Mm-hmm. Or people that I thought could be really talented senior leaders, I would've hired a controller at like 8 million fucking dollars. Like we, this business that we have, it's like, uh, working on, it's like $5 million this year. We're gonna hire a controller this year. Just so it's done. Yeah. Like, I'm done, I'm done.

Not having good financials. 

Jack Carr: Yeah. Well, it's so important and um, yeah. That's awesome. Sweet. So I mean, that's, that's the basic four million's, not anything, but if you are 20 million or 10 million, you can start hiring those positions that make it a real business. I don't know, did I 

John Wilson: say it's not anything I do, 

Jack Carr: uh, just, I'm just, uh, condensing.

Recap, [00:26:00] recap. Yeah. I make sure to like, subscribe and let John know that he's, uh, I, he still owes me one because like last week he was right about something and I just need you guys to absolutely tear him apart in the comments. Yeah, yeah. Please. Yeah. For me. For the little guy, 

John Wilson: for the little 

Jack Carr: take down the man.

Just 

John Wilson: like get to 20. 

Jack Carr: Just like get to Yeah, you're right. Just like fucking, you know, I haven't been just trying to, just doing it over the last like 

John Wilson: four years. Just fucking do it bro. I 

Jack Carr: dunno. We'll be there. Just get to 40, 

John Wilson: just like, I mean, I'm not there yet, so, so in my, I'll be in my example, I'm not yet a real business.

Jack Carr: Damn. 

John Wilson: It's tough. It's tough for me to hear 

Jack Carr: self-deprecating things right there going on. Yeah. It's tough 

John Wilson: for me to hear. Like we still feel a little wild west. Yeah. BF 40 will be grown up. 

Jack Carr: Oh, I love it. Like sub like and [00:27:00] sub.