Owned and Operated - A Plumbing, Electrical, and HVAC Business Growth Podcast

#229 Plumber Closes +$10M/Year (With Just One Trade)

• John Wilson • Season 1 • Episode 229

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📈 How Focus and Smart Marketing Took a Family Plumbing Business to $11M+

In this episode of Owned and Operated, John sits down with Kelson Carter, a plumbing business owner who scaled a single-trade company into an $11 million powerhouse. From rebranding and marketing to building out a sales team, Kelson shares the moves that transformed a family-run operation into a dominant force in home services.

💡 What You’ll Learn:

  • Why focusing on just one trade helped streamline operations and scale faster
  • How rebranding and marketing became game-changers for growth
  • The importance of hiring dedicated sales staff to unlock new revenue
  • Key lessons from taking the business from zero to $11M
  • Market comparisons and what it takes to adapt in different regions
  • Mindset, risk, and margin — what actually drives long-term success

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🎙️ Host:

John Wilson

🎙️ Guest:
Kelson Carter

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Episode 229 Transcript

Kelson Carter: [00:00:00] You see this all the time with $3 million companies. They're like, oh, I'm doing 3 million. I'm gonna add hvac. I'm gonna add electrical. Then they're not making any money. They have no idea what they're doing. They have no focus. I mean, I see it every day. 

John Wilson: 11 million. Just plumbing is big. Like how can somebody else follow that?

Kelson Carter: I would say the biggest game changer for us was when we brought in sales. This year he is gonna do close to 3 million, just strictly plumbing sales, not excavation, nothing. A lot of people don't know how to spend the money. They don't know how to take the risk to put your name out there. They think that Craigslist leads and Facebook leads is gonna grow your business.

Or by knowing Jimmy down the road, which most of the time, you know, those are the worst clients to have as you know,

John Wilson: welcome back to Owned and Operated. Today on the show I have Kelson Carter. Welcome to the show. 

Kelson Carter: Hey John, thanks for having me. 

John Wilson: Yeah, man, this will be fun. Thanks for coming in. You got to spend, uh. Most of the day with us so far. 

Kelson Carter: I, yeah, I really appreciate you opening everything up for me. Um, Akron's [00:01:00] a fun city, so, 

John Wilson: yeah.

Kelson Carter: Not a lot happening, but, uh, STO is it Stowe? 

John Wilson: Yeah. So like, there's Akron Cleveland, which obviously Cleveland's big Cleveland's 30 minutes north of Akron, and then STO is halfway in between 'cause we serve both. 

Kelson Carter: Gotcha. 

John Wilson: Used to be just Akron for. 55 years. Yeah. And then in 2020 we did our first dollar in Cleveland.

Never looked back. You like Cleveland? It's bigger. Yeah. So like Akron population of that county is like 450 of Cleveland proper is 2 million. So it's just. Five times the size. Hmm. Today's break is brought to you by owned and operated newsletter. Go to owned and operated.com and sign up for a twice weekly drop that we send to 40,000 contractors with actionable tips on marketing, hiring and growing your business.

Join the 40,000 other home service contractors already signed up and learning. Enjoy the rest of the episode. So, how has 

Kelson Carter: Cleveland compared to Indianapolis? I've never been to Cleveland, so I'm not, 

John Wilson: yeah. Um, I [00:02:00] think that Indianapolis is growing faster. Has stronger demographics. 

Kelson Carter: Okay. 

John Wilson: So Cleveland, we're growing a little bit.

Uh, there's pockets of like high, it's a big city, like number 48 I think. So big city, big businesses, public companies, so there's a lot going on, but like the economics in Columbus and Cincinnati are better than they're in Cleveland. 

Kelson Carter: Hmm. And Akron's probably kinda like, what's the size of Akron? 

John Wilson: Uh, Akron Proper's one 90, but the county is 400 ish.

Kelson Carter: Okay. 

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: So would you say like 80% of your work comes from Akron? 

John Wilson: No. No. I mean it used to be a hundred, uh, now it's more like 30. 

Kelson Carter: Oh, wow. Okay. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Cleveland, I mean, it's just a bigger market. Yeah. You know, it's five times the population. So marketing dollar goes farther. Yeah. We get more leads. We also bought a bunch of companies up there.

Okay. So there, I think there's like an interesting, um. [00:03:00] Play where there's these cities that are attached to other cities. 

Kelson Carter: Gotcha. 

John Wilson: So Ann Arbor to Detroit. 

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: Um, Dayton to Cincinnati, south Bend of Chicago, maybe. I'm, there's a lot with Chicago, but it's, you take these big cities and there's like a full blown massive metropolis within 30 minutes.

I think that that's like good. Gotcha. What, what has been funny over. My career, what I've watched, again, Akron is a fourth of the size of Cleveland. Mm-hmm. Or less. And uh, but I think because of that, the biggest companies came from Akron. So like the two largest companies in our market is me and someone else.

And we're both in Akron. Mm-hmm. And I think it's because we were able to grow and incubate inside a smaller, less competitive market. And then reach up to the bigger one. While [00:04:00] the bigger market, everybody was fighting for share. 

Kelson Carter: Gotcha. 

John Wilson: So yeah, two biggest markets are from like the small town. 

Kelson Carter: Do you have a location up there?

John Wilson: We used to. 

Kelson Carter: Okay. So you guys drive back and forth or? 

John Wilson: Yeah, we'll drive up to 90 minutes. 

Kelson Carter: Oh wow. 

John Wilson: Yeah. We'll drive, 

Kelson Carter: yeah. 

John Wilson: People have thoughts on that? Yeah, 

Kelson Carter: that's what our farthest we drive is probably 60 at the mo, maybe 50 minutes. So on average? 

John Wilson: Yeah. I think, uh, some people, you know, the way they cover that, so like if you're covering a big city, um, some people will, they take this hour away philosophy.

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: We've talked about it a ton on the show. Tommy Mel's done this. Chad Peterman, Hass done this. Aaron from Eco's done this. Like most multi-location operators have run this playbook mm-hmm. Where they. Take their home base, then they launch a location an hour away. Mm-hmm. Then they launch a location an hour away from that and they just keep chaining so that way they can share resources along the way easier.[00:05:00] 

So if two, like if I have two locations, but they're an hour and a half away mm-hmm. It is harder to like, Hey, this one's slow, so I'm gonna send installers or service guys over here to this one. Whereas if you have them sort of chained, you can like pool together. 

Kelson Carter: Gotcha. Do you feel like your efficiency goes down like a billable efficiency or.

John Wilson: Uh, probably, yeah. But we, the, I think that's a part of the way we've chosen to run is the sales install model. Mm-hmm. Where our salespeople, like our plumbers and electricians, like go out and estimate the job. If it's very small, they do it themselves to save on a trip. Mm-hmm. But they tend to flip it over to install.

So maybe there's a little bit of extra drive time. Um, but I think because our average ticket is so high, because we follow that model. That it matters a little bit less. Gotcha. Because I think it's like salespeople. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: So that's our philosophy. Seems to be working. But it could break. I really have no idea.

You know, we'll see what it [00:06:00] looks, looks like twice our size. Yeah. I'd love to hear a little bit more about you. You're also a third generation plumber? 

Kelson Carter: I am. Are you a third generation? 

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: Wow. Okay. Runs in our blood, doesn't it? It does. Us plumbers gotta stick together, right? It's the water. 

John Wilson: It's the water 

Kelson Carter: here.

I was convinced to get into HVC coming over here and then I'm talked out of it, but uh, 

John Wilson: yeah. Well I do think like $11 million plumbing company. Yeah. Like. There's just not a lot 

Kelson Carter: mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: Of of them that size. And, you know, I have a, I have a good friend, uh, Isaac in Chicago, and I think he's 25 this year. Uh, pure plumbing I think would one of the advantages that he has that I will never have, and the one of the advantages that you have that I will never have is like, you can be more dialed in and you can be more.

It's scalable. Mm-hmm. Like simple is scalable. Yeah. So the less things you do, the more scalable it is. So there's a very real, uh, [00:07:00] possibility that like, yeah, we're bigger than you now, but like you could pass us in a few years if you chose to like expand and mm-hmm. And keep it simple because you, you have an, a simpler model to replicate.

Like if I went to go launch somewhere new and I wanted to go full bore, like all three trades. Lot harder. That's a ton of brain damage. Yeah. Versus just like plumbing, plumbing, plumbing. Same with like electric HVAC. Like if it was just one trade. Mm-hmm. So I think you have a huge advantage and so does Isaac.

I think it's a huge advantage. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah, that's a good point. 

John Wilson: Yep. 

Kelson Carter: So yeah, I, uh, my grandpa was a plumber, kind of a one man show. Mm-hmm. And, uh, then my. Uh, father came along and, uh, grew, uh, grew the business and got heavy into new construction. 

John Wilson: Okay. 

Kelson Carter: Well, the problem with new construction, you're always waiting on your money.

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: And, uh, he joined contractors 2000, back in the mid nineties. Um, eventually joined Ben Franklin one hour, had the opportunity to exit in 2006, and, um, I never showed [00:08:00] interest of getting into the trade. 

John Wilson: How, how big was the Ben Franklin? 

Kelson Carter: Uh, they were doing about 8 million. 

John Wilson: How big is that? Like that's big 

Kelson Carter: back then.

Yeah, that's huge. I don't know how to, you know, I think they had 80 employees, so Yeah. That's 

John Wilson: crazy. 

Kelson Carter: Four. They had four physical, three or four physical locations. So back in the day it was all about being, you know, in a certain spot. Um, having that, that base right there, um, wasn't like the technology we have now where you can, you know, yeah.

I mean, shoot, back then you probably, I don't know if we had GPSs. I mean I was still No, 

John Wilson: we didn't, I mean we were using CB radio. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. Still. Yeah. So they used to use the next tell walkie talkie Yep. Type things and all that. So, um, had the opportunity to exit, um, took two years off, had two year non-compete.

Um, I was graduating high school. We graduated, uh, same year, 2009. Um. I just kind of started doing it. I was like, you know, showed interest in it, started doing some new construction. Um, really understood the p and l from that. Did that for two years. Understood that. I don't wanna do new construction. [00:09:00] Mm-hmm.

So, um, I'm more salesy the most 

John Wilson: important lesson. Yeah. Like you learned. The only important thing, you know, 

Kelson Carter: in today's world though, there are a lot of new construction guys that are really banging it out. I mean, you're still waiting on your money, but Yeah. If you can get, like there's some production guys that are in my area that are really killing it.

Yeah. So once you have it down to a science, 

John Wilson: I think you can at like. Big. Yes. Like the guys that I hear that are like 

Kelson Carter: the onesie, twosie guys, it's tough man. Yeah. It's the guys that I 

John Wilson: hear that are printing are like 6,000 homes a year. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. Yeah. You gotta be big volume. Yeah. So, but they have it down to a science where one guy does one thing.

Mm-hmm. You know, the next guy does the next. So, um, they do well at it. Um, so in 2011, 12, um, decide I wanna start going service. So we bought two trucks, um, my father and I, and we just kinda. Started from there. Um, just kind of been an organic growth, just kind of one truck, two truck here, there. Um, 2014, I kind of went through kind of what everybody goes in their mid twenties, kind of what am I doing?

Mm-hmm. Um, we just constant [00:10:00] turnover, you know? Mm-hmm. I would be outta the truck one day. Two people quit. Next thing you know, Kels back running the service call. I'm like, you know what? I, I don't know. It may be easier to go work for someone else than, you know, do your own thing. So, um, my dad had a good friend down in Jacksonville, Florida, went down there for a short period.

They were still on time material, which I thought was crazy. But you said in 2014 you were, we 

John Wilson: still work. We switched to, and I don't even like we're gonna say this. Yeah. And this is kind of funny. I don't get to meet many, uh, like. Industry, like people who've been in the industry for a while Yeah. Who are also young.

Yeah. It's just like not really a thing. Yeah. So like ev every, most of my friends that are like in industry only came in like five years ago, six years ago. Oh yeah. 

Kelson Carter: I got in when the gravy train was good. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, a lot of the rules were already set. Yeah. They didn't go through the stuff.

Yeah. But, but yeah. I remember pivoting to flat rate for the first time it was 2017. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. Which 

John Wilson: like that is crazy. I like, I don't even, I don't even think about that trans, it [00:11:00] was so long ago. But, 

Kelson Carter: so my father in the nineties, he went to uh, next door thing. Yeah. And, um, he said coming home, he made the decision to go all service.

So he had like, I don't know, probably 30 plumbers or something, and he got rid of all of 'em and kept six and decided from this point forward, I just want to own a profitable company. I don't care what the top line revenue is. I just wanna make money and be able to put food on the table. I don't wanna be getting loans out to make payroll.

Mm-hmm. You know? And the next thing was they had to go from $50 an hour to 300. Mm-hmm. Well, back then it was like unheard of, you know? Yeah. Flat rate. When he told the guys that were working for him that they were gonna go flat rate, he had three people threaten to quit right then and there. They're like, there's no way, you know?

And, um, so he ended up, you know, making that change. And, uh, it made all the difference. But he told me stories of, he said it was almost daily, he would have someone call in to complain. 'cause back then you didn't have Google or anything, and they would just call you and rip you a new one. He said he, there were [00:12:00] times he would just hide from the phone because it's just like.

Back then you may have been since 

John Wilson: moving on to flat rate. Well, 

Kelson Carter: the flat rate because no one else in the area. I mean I think there may have been one dial one may have been doing it. Yeah. But it just wasn't like it is now. I mean, shoot, there's, is 

John Wilson: anybody like, well I did meet someone the other day. That was time and material and I, where 

Kelson Carter: we go out in Florida was amazing and Marco Island, Florida, everybody down there is still high material.

That's incredible. All the plumbers on the island, that's incredible. It blows our mind, but. They do well because today's world, they charge, you know, people charge out the wazoo. You know, we have ex-employees that charge more than what we did, and it's like, you don't have the overhead, you know? Yeah. You don't even know what your costs are.

Yeah. They're just charging the charge. Yeah. I mean, yeah. 

John Wilson: I have like, there's, there's a, a friend of mine in market here, and he charges what we charge per Yeah. And it's, it's like he has, he has zero overhead. Yeah. It's like they have I, good to you, bro. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah, that's good. But they have no idea what their true costs are.

Yeah. Um, so anyways, came back in 2015 and, uh, just really started, um. [00:13:00] Trying to grow the business and putting the money, kept, putting the money back in the business. Um, you know, we have been a debt-free company. Um, I'm not saying that's always the best thing, but it's just kind of a model I chose to go. I think it's epic as hell.

It's a slower, it's slower growth, but, um, you know, it, it does help us in the long run. Um, did a rebrand, so I'm just 

John Wilson: gonna specify. So everyone here's. There's no debt on vehicles either. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah, 

John Wilson: yeah, 

Kelson Carter: yeah. Completely. Everything is debt free. Yeah. 

John Wilson: I think it's a big advantage. 

Kelson Carter: So, um, but it's been hard because, you know, I mean, until we've gotten to the size, the capital to just keep putting back in the fleet, it's like I was telling you earlier, I got older trucks that need Yeah.

It's just a constant. Kind of ongoing thing, but we don't drive far. So, you know, I have trucks that I bought five years ago that have like 50,000 miles on it. Yeah, that's nice. They text live in the area. Yep. Wear and tear. Not so as much on 'em. Um, 2019, did the rebrand, um, kind of put my touch on it. Um, started talking about, uh, we had kind [00:14:00] of a 50 50 partnership with my parents and, uh, ended up fully buying them out about three or four years ago.

Nice. And uh, yeah. 

John Wilson: Now here we are today. 

Kelson Carter: Here we are today. 

John Wilson: Here we are. Who, who's on the team? Like how big is the team now? 

Kelson Carter: So we have, what's the, yeah, we have approximately 50 employees. Okay. Um, I have a couple service managers, um, that just deal with the technicians. Um, off excavations, uh, team lead manager 

John Wilson: and then 30 plumbers.

Kelson Carter: Uh, we run about 20. Uh, a little over 20. And then we have apprentice scissors. We try to keep at least six to seven. We used to run a one-on-one ratio. 

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: Uh, did really, why, why'd you stop 

John Wilson: that? 

Kelson Carter: Um, we just kind of have gotten to the size now where people aren't leaving as much. Um, I don't know. I don't know if it's economy this year.

Have you felt like turnovers? I mean, finding people This past year has been the easiest I've ever seen since I've been in the trade, in my opinion. I know a lot of companies, [00:15:00] you know, in the industry have either sold and sometimes slow down. Mm-hmm. Um, so we've had, it seems like anytime anybody sells, we kind of get, uh, people flip over from that, you know, they wanna stay with a family oriented organization.

John Wilson: Yeah. Could be That could be size. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Uh, bigger Usually attracts more. 

Kelson Carter: That's true. 

John Wilson: So. Um, like did you move 'cause location? No. Could attract more. Um, been in the 

Kelson Carter: same location for since 1988. 

John Wilson: Yeah. That's funny. 

Kelson Carter: So, yeah, you're about to, you're about to move. Yeah. Well actually, uh, yeah, when you're out, I'll show you, but we, uh, we have room to expand.

Um, I just bought some property too, um, for parking, but yeah, I don't know. In today's world, I mean, is it, do you always have to have the largest building? I don't know. Like, are you able to run a larger operation kinda like you have, I mean. You're offshoring some of your, um, people that work for you. Um, yeah.

I think you necessarily need, I think 

John Wilson: between [00:16:00] offshoring and like automation, you probably need less square footage. What we have continued to find is like, I wish we had more. There's things you don't even think about. Yeah. Like I don't even think about. Yeah. Right. So. Uh, we had someone yesterday and we tried to go find spot for a meeting and there was no conference rooms available.

So sort of like, okay, well like do we need to like carve this out into a small meeting room? Um, or like training, like yeah, we have 37,000 square feet, I think, or 38, somewhere in there. And there's not enough physical space to put like a large enough training room to like run an academy in house. Yeah.

Like we could maybe find a way to like carve out. 2000 square feet. Mm-hmm. But I think that's where our gap has been, 

Kelson Carter: like keeping inventory. Like that's one thing we haven't really brought in. I mean, but yeah. That's another inventory. You know's a whole thing. You know, I have, we have a supply house that comes by twice a day.

Yeah. So we're able [00:17:00] to, you know, keep onesie twosies of things we need. Um, keep enough to restock. We keep on hand enough to stock six trucks any at any time. But as far as like water heaters, softeners, stuff like that. It's just kind of a onesie, twosie, and as the day goes on, as stuff moves, you know? Yeah.

There's some days we're putting in 10, 12 water heaters, so it's like, you know, we need that supply coming back in. 

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: And, uh, our local supplier's able to do that, but I haven't felt the need to really expand too much. Mm-hmm. Um, outside of what we have. 

John Wilson: When, when you think of like 11 million, just plumbing is big, right?

Like that's, that's big. It's inarguably big. Like what are the key decisions you're, that like, got you there? Like how can somebody else follow that? 

Kelson Carter: Um, I would say the biggest game changer for us was, um, when we brought in sales. 

John Wilson: Full time. What does that look 

Kelson Carter: like? Um, so any free estimate leads. Mm-hmm. Um, we started, you know, I think we were at [00:18:00] 1.5, we brought in our first salesman and it really took Oh, really?

On? Yeah. Yeah. Um, he, uh, uh, worked at a competitor. That's all he did there. Mm-hmm. Um. He ended up, uh, coming to us, lived in the Greenwood area. Well, um, I think this year he is gonna do close to 3 million. Nice. In plumbing. Just strictly plumbing sales, not excavation, nothing. So 

John Wilson: what is that? Is that like water heaters, repi tanks, water, heat softeners, 

Kelson Carter: re pipes?

Um, any we give him over the phone leads the certain one because he is a, his profile's a debater. He's very good at, you know, especially on phone leads. Mm-hmm. You know, people call in for a water heater estimate. Is that, is 

John Wilson: that Culture index? 

Kelson Carter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I use that for a little while. We don't use it anymore.

Yeah. It's pretty expensive, but, um, it was pretty accurate for the most part. Um, you know, I don't know. What are 

John Wilson: you. 

Kelson Carter: Huh? I'm a tech expert. What are you? I 

John Wilson: think I'm a philosopher. 

Kelson Carter: I could see that you're way out here. I'm more like, I have brakes on me. Come somewhere. So I, [00:19:00] I like, 

John Wilson: I was, I was close to all gas, no brakes.

Yeah. Yeah. I was close. 

Kelson Carter: That's why I told you to watch that re rework. Yeah. Yeah. 

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: So, but yeah, no, I would say the biggest game changer for us was when we started obviously marketing more. Um, a lot of companies don't, um, obviously I'm learning I'm not the best marketer after coming out here. Um, but a lot of people dunno how to spend the money.

They don't know how to take the risk to put your name out there. They think that, um, I'm running click Craigslist leads and Facebook leads is gonna grow your business. Or by knowing Jimmy down the road. Yeah. Which most of the time, you know, those are the worst clients to have as you know. Yeah. So, um, marketing, getting the sales, having a good salesman.

You know, I really, I've, I've had some bad salesmen, so, um, for sure. What 

John Wilson: makes a bad one? 

Kelson Carter: Uh, they're closing, they're not hitting the KPIs. Oh, just low percentage. Yeah. They're not hitting their KPIs that, you know, you need 'em to hit once you have a good one. 

John Wilson: Mm-hmm. 

Kelson Carter: You know, you know, you know. Yeah. 

John Wilson: Which, so like, what's a target?

KPI for this plunk 

Kelson Carter: system? Um, so [00:20:00] our, they need to hit 70% in home closing. Wow. Yeah. That is, so he actually runs 80. Yeah. His average ticket for water heater is like 3,200. 

John Wilson: Okay. 

Kelson Carter: And he runs 80% on water heaters. That's wow. Yeah. So over the phone sales need to run 50%. Um, 

John Wilson: yeah. Does he hit that? 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. Mm-hmm. He succeeds at my lower performing one.

Uh, hits red at 50 

John Wilson: and no, and that's gonna be. Over the phone. Like someone calls in says, I need a water, I want a free 

Kelson Carter: estimate. I don't want anybody out. No one out. You know, and that's, that's one way we have really done well just being a plumbing company. Yeah. Is we make things happen. Um, yeah. Flexibly.

Yeah. Where flexibility. Yeah. Like, you know, some people call and say their capacity's full well, we make it happen. Yeah. You know? And then I just feel like your efficiency really goes up, especially when you're closing over the phone. I mean, you already, you get the picture of it. I mean, you get there. Yep.

Um, yeah. 

John Wilson: Yeah, totally works really well for us. This is something we have started to try to work on. We have [00:21:00] never done, we have like a robust inside sales department, but they're doing HVAC over the phone with the tech in the house. Mm-hmm. Or they're doing, um. Uh, like rehash. So we're not yet selling water heaters just over the phone.

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: No intro and like we have to like mm-hmm. It, it's flexible, it's easy, and we should be able to Yeah. Like prices for water heaters are on our website. Yeah. It's not like a complicated 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Thing, you know, you just go through the contractor commerce thing. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. Um, do you do well with that 

John Wilson: contractor commerce?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. As a whole? Yeah. I've 

Kelson Carter: just never gone to that style. I've been more of, you know, we get to read. You don't have it 

John Wilson: on yours? No. For some reason I thought you did. 

Kelson Carter: Mm. I looked at getting into it, but I You have the 

John Wilson: different Carter's in Indianapolis. Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: Uh, actually when it first came out, I was kind of toying with the idea.

I just, um, I still feel like you have to have that debating type of conversation. 

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: To really close the lead. I mean, uh, you would just have to listen to 'em on the phone like it's. It's good. 

John Wilson: I'm gonna call [00:22:00] him. You should. I'm ask for a water heater. I can call him on here. 

Kelson Carter: Um, 

John Wilson: gimme a 40. Yeah, that'd be a hell of an episode.

Kelson Carter: Honest. Now, I'll tell you, if you go down this avenue, make sure you get pictures from the Homer before you go. Oh yeah. We've been down that road. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. That seems like that in 

Kelson Carter: measurements. So they uh Yeah. If it's too tight of a spot. Yeah. 

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: But besides that, it's just a water heater. I mean, I really feel like we're getting to the point where we have enough over the phone sales, I mean, out of his.

Almost 30 million in sales. I would say selling at least probably 30% over the phone. Wow, that high? Yeah, 

John Wilson: that is high. How do you comp that? 

Kelson Carter: Just pay 'em normal. 

John Wilson: I haven't been down that road. 

Kelson Carter: Have you tried to take anything away from a salesman? 

John Wilson: Yeah, I have. It goes how you think? Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. Um, okay.

That's really interesting. Yeah, I, I, we started working on this a couple weeks ago. So like pretty fresh. It should be very [00:23:00] solvable. Yeah, because like, doesn't seem, I'm sure there's like nuance, like probably mistakes. Like Oh no venting. Yeah, venting is what I think I'm most concerned about. Like, like, hey, this isn't gonna work.

The chimney's plugged, or, you know, whatever freaking reason. Um, but, uh, yeah, it seems like it, 

Kelson Carter: like do you guys sell a 

John Wilson: lot over the phone? So we sell. Millions for HVAC over the Yeah, we sell millions just in general through rehash. Like it's a half a million a month. Mm-hmm. It gets sold over the phone.

Mm-hmm. It's a lot. Yeah. Uh, but none of them water heaters like fresh. Mm-hmm. So we haven't, we haven't, it's been like a conversation for over a year and a half of like, and we're just now getting to execute point. 'cause just we've been doing other things. This is one of the benefits of focus. 

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: In, in my mind.

So like. You can probably execute at a faster pace on more direct ideas than I can, not just because we're a larger organization, but because we have like these different things. Mm-hmm. So if there's a fire burning over here, an [00:24:00] HVAC or an electric or drains, then uh, it's just, it's harder. Like get your arms all around it versus I would just one thing you can just go blitz.

Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: And I would agree a hundred percent on that. That was another thing I meant to add, like when we went through the rebrand. I went through total changed the vision of the company, our higher purpose, our mission statement. We have the Carter way, that's how we hire and fire people. You know, back in the day it was just something on the wall that I couldn't even tell you what it said.

Mm-hmm. So, um, now, you know, I have like a, created these credit cards style things that has everything on that everybody knows our vision. But one thing, we went back and we were a small team at the time, and we asked everybody, what's your favorite thing to do, like as a plumber? What would be your favorite thing to do as a plumber?

John Wilson: Probably water heaters. Yeah, water heaters. They were fun. Yeah. Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: Everybody loves water heaters. A good ticket in and out, you know? So 

John Wilson: my record was 38 minutes. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. So that's where I came up with the USP Hot Water day, or it's I WePay. Mm-hmm. So that's our tagline and we really hit home with it and we just drove water [00:25:00] heaters.

Um, yeah. Do you guys track how many your water heaters you do a year? 

John Wilson: Yeah, we do like 1100. 

Kelson Carter: Okay. So we're comparable. Yeah. So 

John Wilson: if you've been listening to the show for a while, you know that we've been big fans of service scalers. One of the things that they just dropped that we are really excited about is a paper lead program.

So what they help you do is they help you directly gain access to leads and scale up your lead partner program. Go to service scalers.com and say, we sent you. Yeah. It is a machine. I mean, water heaters can become like a Yeah. Thing. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. Tankless are great too. We should 

John Wilson: combine purchasing who you, who you putting in?

Kelson Carter: Uh, Bradford. 

John Wilson: We should combine purchasing. Are 

Kelson Carter: you doing Bradford? 

John Wilson: No, but like I could be talked into it for, for the volume of 2200. I could be talked into. Yeah. We 

Kelson Carter: just switched to Rena Tankless. Yeah. We've been kind of, we did Nian had problems. We did, uh, just went through our Bradford stint. Uh, yeah. Yeah.

And uh, so yeah, we've had good luck with Renee. 

John Wilson: Yeah. So the biggest, biggest [00:26:00] impact thing? Sales. Sales. Sounds like it. Unlocked phone sales. Rebrand has been huge. Brand. Brand, you gotta know who you are. 

Kelson Carter: You gotta have vision. It's kinda like what you have throughout your building. I have the same thing on every wall.

Where are we going? A lot of that's 

John Wilson: fresh. Like within the last month. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. So we've had ours on the wall for like four, or whenever we did the rebrand. Yeah. Right before COVID. But it really just kind of changed, you know? It made us feel like a group. Everybody's just started rowing the same way. Really?

Yeah. We knew where we were going so. 

John Wilson: How many salespeople do you have now? 

Kelson Carter: Uh, we just have two strictly, uh, plumbing sales. Then I just have one excavation, so we're trying to grow the excavation. That's kind of been our, not put a lot of emphasis on it, it's just kind of been we do excavation. Yeah. Um, it really is another business in a way.

Yeah. You know, if you really get down the nitty gritty of it. So we just, um, didn't put a lot of focus on it, so, yeah. 

John Wilson: It definitely is its own thing. Yeah. Like drains is so different. 

Kelson Carter: It is. Um, like back when I was in a truck, did you do [00:27:00] drains? A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. That's just what today plumbers.

I'm not a drain cleaner. Yeah. Yeah. So, but then when you look at, you know, if you are charging normal rates, not the 93 or free stuff, you know, you can, those are good tickets. Do a couple of those a day. Yeah. 

John Wilson: But I do think we don't talk about drains enough. Yeah. Uh, 'cause it is, um. I mean, it's a beautiful business.

It is like we, our, our drain department is, uh, three and a half ish million. I think it's 300 a month. Mm-hmm. So what's that? Three, six? Mm-hmm. But it's like 70% gross margin. Yeah. It is a ridiculous business. And it's all labor. Mm-hmm. Like if they buy $10 a parts a month, it's like. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. What 

John Wilson: happened? 

Kelson Carter: Yeah.

What do you bu budget, like labor percentage wise, 

John Wilson: 30, but then there's a little bit of overage, um, I don't remember what it's like permits or something. Mm-hmm. It's like the, our drain cleaners are paid like 30% a ticket. Mm-hmm. So it's [00:28:00] just whatever the ticket is, 

Kelson Carter: that's what 0.3 we budget to. 

John Wilson: Yeah. And so they make amazing money.

Like our drink leaders are making like. A lot. They might even be close to our highest paid, like infield professionals at this point. Mm-hmm. Because if you're doing 10 grand a week, that's $3,000 a week. Yeah. Like, it's a lot of money. 

Kelson Carter: So you were talking about earlier, we're both kind of talking about doing the loss leader thing.

Yeah. Um, not, you know, I run a $50 off coupon right now, which does great. Yeah. But it's still does, well just 

John Wilson: to be clear, the loss leader thing being like. 93 or free drink 93 or free. 

Kelson Carter: Everybody does it. It's all over the place. I mean it too. 

John Wilson: I feel like you have to, so like this is me coming from HVAC a little.

Yeah. Now we're plumbing and drains are like, you know, most of our stuff, but. In hvac, everyone does the tuneup special. 

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: Everybody does it. There's just no getting around it. Mm-hmm. And I mean, maybe there's someone out there that's like, I'm not gonna discount this. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: I see it more in drains where people are like, like how can you 

Kelson Carter: [00:29:00] differentiate yourself doing the cheap?

You know, that's something like, we don't call our tank. Water heater flushes. We call 'em a sediment flush. Yeah. Like you see, uh, sump pump inspections. This is trademarked, but we call it a. Sump pump stress test. Nice. So we're actually putting stress on the sump pump. Yeah. And people eat it up when I run those ads on our radio.

Yeah. I'll run it for like two months straight. During those seasons. Yeah. Peak seasons for sump pumps. You'd be amazed. It'll keep three people busy. That's interesting. You know, just running those, those lost leaders. That's interesting. But then they turn into something more. Yeah. So, and we do a resin cleaning or water.

So why, 

John Wilson: why do you have an issue with it for drains? 

Kelson Carter: Uh, just because you're, um. Yeah, that's a great point. I really don't have an issue for it, but I think where do you cover your cost in, uh, you know, as the whole department? Um, you know, when you're doing the install side, yeah. You're covering your cost on the excavation sale.

So 

John Wilson: I think the idea is volume. Like if I under, it's the same as hvac. [00:30:00] So like hvac, I want to do as many tuneups as humanly possible because I know that. One in seven is gonna be a replacement and the replacement is gonna be $12,000. Mm-hmm. And sewer is almost the same thing. Like average ticket for us is 9,500 or something like that for sewer, and I think it's one in seven or one in six.

It's what something like that turns into a replacement. Mm-hmm. Like we sell one or two sewers a day. 

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: Usually two. And that's a lot. I mean, do you feel 

Kelson Carter: like people think that you're getting a thorough job done on a drain cleaning for that certain price? Like, um, I, 

John Wilson: I think people know exactly what 

Kelson Carter: that, I mean, I feel like it's raining its course in our area.

Like people, you know, you'll see on forms all the time. I just call them for the cheap drain cleaning. Get 'em out once a year. Yeah. You know, you almost have to have stipulations around it. Um, yeah, you 

John Wilson: definitely do. Yeah. You need tools. You know, you got the 

Kelson Carter: landlord that lives down the road, you know, the tenant that doesn't have a pot to piss in that keeps calling you [00:31:00] to Yeah.

Clean your drain. So yeah, I mean, honestly people have done it really well. I mean, I know people in my area that do really well. I think the challenge is like 

John Wilson: scale. Yeah. So from, so for us, like our constraint, we have four people for, uh, like drain cleaning techs mm-hmm. Every day. And that's the only department that we have not had a headcount to in four years.

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. Like 

John Wilson: revenue's growing 'cause we're doing price increases or we're just like getting better mm-hmm. At running that department. But we're not growing. Mm-hmm. As a department. We've been running a crew and a half for years, and we've been running four drain cleaners for years. It's very profitable.

Mm-hmm. It's very consistent, so we don't really mess with it, but in order to drive the amount of leads that we need to, like how do we get from four to 10? Mm-hmm. Like, it's gonna be memberships with an annual scope and it's going to be, uh, like. Coupons. Mm-hmm. A lot of coupons. Mm-hmm. And probably the 93 or free or 99 for the first 25 feet, like [00:32:00] some type of h.

Yeah. And it's the same thing as hvac. Mm-hmm. Like you have to run this loss leader service. Mm-hmm. In order to do it. Just to get it. Yeah. Which does kind of suck. 'cause H like hvac, no one, I think a lot of the best practices groups sort of like train you to, Hey, your service department should be profitable.

Mm-hmm. I don't know anybody's service department that's profitable. Like, and ours just loses money. Like hand over foot. Yeah. And it has forever. And you just have to come to terms with the fact that that's kind of the whole point. What it is, that's what it is. What it's, it's job is to feed installs.

Mm-hmm. Like that's all that, you know, that's what's there to do. And I think drain cleaning, promotion wise is sort of the same. 

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: We haven't done the 93 or free thing yet either, but like we're, we're heading there as soon as we're, we're like finishing up other projects then we'll 

Kelson Carter: yeah. 

John Wilson: Start aggressively pushing on drains.

It's a big opportunity. Mm-hmm. Just like hvac, I mean, $10,000 average ticket. What, what's your [00:33:00] average sewer? 

Kelson Carter: Uh, I would say we're close to you. 

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. That's big. Yeah. 

John Wilson: I mean, you can move a business like that. Yeah. It's, it's, 

Kelson Carter: yeah. We got into trenchless. We don't do lining, but we do the bursting. Yeah. I made the investment about a year ago, so we really.

There's a company in California that's a certain path member, and, uh, they don't have any excavation equipment. 

John Wilson: Oh, yeah. 

Kelson Carter: And it's, I mean, it's awesome. I mean, they make the yard look like they weren't even there. 

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: But you can just charge a premium for it. Oh, yeah. You know, put the, so I mean, they put sod down and everything.

It's like, I would love to do that. I don't know if I can find someone in our area detailed enough to, to do that, but, uh, yeah. Yeah. 

John Wilson: I, I think, I feel like drains has all of the benefits of HVAC, like. High average ticket. Yeah, I guess that's probably the biggest benefit and good, good margin, but like drains has a bigger margin.

They, they're super profitable. It's not seasonable. I 

Kelson Carter: mean, you look at Zoom drains, I mean that they're model is, it's a crazy business. Yeah. 

John Wilson: It's a crazy business. Yeah, 

Kelson Carter: it [00:34:00] is amazing. 

John Wilson: Yeah. We really don't talk about it enough on here, honestly. But there, there is a, uh, there's a company in Pennsylvania and they're like 70 million.

Kelson Carter: Oh wow. And 

John Wilson: it's like almost all drains really. Lining and excavation. Yeah. They're a 

Kelson Carter: machine. They do like municipality stuff or, no, 

John Wilson: that's like residential. 

Kelson Carter: Huh? Because I know people that make, you know, besides waiting on your money, they get into the municipalities. Yes. I have a good friend that's done it and he is Yeah.

Feeling it. Yeah. Because they pay, you know, it's your government money going to work, 

John Wilson: so. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, yeah, it's a lot. Yeah. Drains is a good business. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: What's the split out of 11 million? What's drains first? 

Kelson Carter: 1.8. So pretty small 

John Wilson: getting there. Yeah. We have a friend in, uh, pro Doug. I, I think he's 11 or 

Kelson Carter: 12.

John Wilson: He's like similar size. Yeah. And, um, 

Kelson Carter: Mr. Rooter. 

John Wilson: Yes. Yeah. And I wanna say drains is like 6 million or five. Wow. It's like a lot of drains. 

Kelson Carter: Well, that's probably like Roto-Rooter. I mean, they have the brand name. Yeah. I mean, the first thing you're gonna search is Rooter main drain. Yeah. Or [00:35:00] something. Yeah. But Roto-Rooter really has.

That lockdown. Yeah. For that tag. So, so when you think about, that's been our hard problem is, you know, differentiating, you know, on Google. Yes. Like between plumbing, water heaters, you know, I've really focused on water heaters now. The other Google locations I have, I've started tagging drains on it. Mm-hmm.

Just trying to, uh, help with AdWord stuff. So 

John Wilson: Yeah. That makes sense. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: When you think about your big opportunity in front of you, does drains feel like the big opportunity geographic? It's the 

Kelson Carter: biggest opportunity I have right now. Yeah. Um, I think the next thing is marketing. Yeah. So sometimes, you know, we hang around the wrong people and you feel like going down different avenues, um, like what HVAC, you know, adding certain trades, but sometimes isn't always the answer.

Maybe you're not, that you don't have the business you have at full capacity. So, you know, you see this all the time with $3 million companies. They're like, oh, I'm doing 3 million. I'm gonna add hvac. I'm gonna add electrical. I'm gonna, are they thinking I'm be a jack of all trades. And then they're not making any money.

They [00:36:00] have no idea what they're doing. They have no focus. I mean, I see it every day. Yeah. I think that's the biggest problem in our industry. They see the flashy lights and they're like, you know, 

John Wilson: or, or they don't understand scale. Like and I, yeah, that we're guilty of this too. Yeah. I think we're guilty of this where like drains is a great example.

This market has much more to give. A crew and a half. Yeah. And on one hand, like maybe we're big for the market, but. I mean, we could be running four or five crews in excavation just like HVAC or just like plumbing. 

Kelson Carter: I mean, how do you know when 

John Wilson: you're at Market Cap though? Usually growth Dwindles. Now there are like tools you can use Yeah.

To measure that. Yeah. But, uh, we're not anywhere close. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: But yeah, I, I know we can go, I know we can go further, but I remember we were looking at this business, uh, to like, to buy them. 

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: I wanna say this was 21 or 22. Small business, like $2 million, two and a half million dollars maybe. And like they were convinced that they had 18% market share.[00:37:00] 

And I'm like, we were six times your size. Yeah. Like that would mean that together we are over a hundred percent of the market. Like that doesn't make any sense. Yeah. And like the broker, like everyone was like, no, we, we have this. And I'm like, you can't, like, you can't possibly have that much. So I, I feel like that's a part of it is like, unless.

It's just so hard to imagine what really big looks like. Yeah. Which like the same for me, right? Mm-hmm. Like I haven't been inside Parker and Sons or Four Seasons, and those are a quarter of a billion dollar businesses in one location. Yeah. Like that's hard for me to imagine that we could do that here in Cleveland.

I'm sure we probably could. Yeah. It's hard to imagine. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. They've done a really good job. Marketing. 

John Wilson: Yeah. They're killing it. They've done a good job at everything. Like I think just everything. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Yeah. So drains is a big opportunity. How do you think you're gonna tackle it? 

Kelson Carter: Create more leads, really. I mean, you just gotta have those levers to pull.

So I would say for me, I mean, I have the equipment for. The crews already. Mm-hmm. So [00:38:00] I've already invested the two 

John Wilson: crews or three crews. 

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. So, uh, actually just bought, uh, since we had such a good, uh, June went out and bought a dump truck, so Nice. Got another dump truck coming. Um, like a 

John Wilson: 3 57 50, 

Kelson Carter: uh, 5,555.

Yeah. When went to Chevy. Um, not like a brand loyal person. Mm-hmm. So, but it was the best deal. Yeah. So 

John Wilson: tracks 

Kelson Carter: right now, they got a lot of good deals going on at dealerships it seems like. So 

John Wilson: Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: The heavy duty trucks aren't moving as fast as they were. No. I mean, not around us. Sounds great. No. Yeah. I keep getting you guys use those Chevy Express fans?

John Wilson: No, not anymore. I don't know anybody that use 'em, but those, those are not moving. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. I mean, I get calls weekly like, Hey, you know, yeah. You can move these for, 

John Wilson: and the the problem is I'm like, I would love to, but 

Kelson Carter: yeah. 

John Wilson: Like none of my guys wanna work in 'em anymore. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Like the high roofs, you gotta be able to walk in.

Yeah. You know, it's just too easy. Are you guys 

Kelson Carter: like inventorying your trucks very often, 

John Wilson: or? So we're doing, [00:39:00] uh, like basically no. So the only, the only department that has inventory in the trucks is HVAC service, and it's like a packout. There are some consumables inside each truck, but the rest of 'em are in these, uh, Milwaukee packout kits that are on rollers.

Saw that. So we have, yeah, we have like 120 of those like kits. So every single install job type mm-hmm. Has a packout kit associated with it. Gotcha. Or usually multiple, like there's like eight water heater packouts and 20 HVAC install packouts. So 

Kelson Carter: your plumbers don't, they carry stock, but it's in a packout?

John Wilson: Yeah, we, I, the best way to think about this is mobile truck stock. 

Kelson Carter: Okay. 

John Wilson: So like a big pain point that everybody has is, well, how do you count the truck stocks? Mm-hmm. It's basically like having a hundred different warehouses. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. It 

John Wilson: gets a very complicated problem. 

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: Um. And no one has it figured out.

I have seen in person one shop have it figured out. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: And everyone else, like a [00:40:00] hundred million dollar businesses mm-hmm. Are like, we have no idea what to do with truck stock. Mm-hmm. It's a hard problem. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: So it seemed like the easiest way to solve the problem was to get rid of the problem completely.

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. So 

John Wilson: we could put a ton of resources into like, yeah, I can go hire 10 people to count parts every day. 

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: Or. Go buy a bunch of plastic with wheels and just empty the trucks every day. Mm-hmm. Cycle, count it, refill it. 

Kelson Carter: Do you feel like your guys ever like are somewhere and need that one? Sure.

John Wilson: Yeah. It's a daily payment. Copper 

Kelson Carter: 90 or whatever. Yeah. 

John Wilson: I think that's the cost of doing the way I do it, but I think like even if they didn't have the packouts, they, their truck stock would never have been good enough. To not need like that still would've happened regardless. Mm-hmm. I think it actually happens less with Packouts, but that could have just been how bad we were at Truck Stock before.

Gotcha. We were not dialed in at all, which I think we're the best we've ever been. Yeah. So there's still like a, you know, still like daily fires on it, but it feels better. So that's good. How, how about you guys? 

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Kelson Carter: Uh, I feel like we have pretty dialed in. Um, besides have, we carry about $7,000 on each truck.

That's a lot. We've taught, like I told you earlier, we talked about back in the day, I used to pull every tray off. Yeah. I had a mock truck and I would replace each [00:42:00] tray. Uh, I didn't want to do it anymore. It's hard to find someone to do it. I mean, the warehouse manager didn't really wanna do it either.

It's too high lift. It is. It, you know, it's constant. Yeah. And that's where maybe, you know, we're not a VMI, so, you know, I, they've offered to do that for us. We, you know, just haven't gone down that road, uh, uh, being a partner of someone. Yeah. But, um, yeah, but we, I mean, generally we, you know, we keep pretty good stock.

We run between 1890. 18, 20% of budget. Yeah. So that's a machine or material? That's a machine. So 

John Wilson: we are not there on plumbing. We'd like to get there. I think a part of it is either the markup, it's probably part, it's probably the markup. Yeah. To be honest with you. What kind 

Kelson Carter: of gross margin do you run on water heaters?

You know, 

John Wilson: I don't, yeah. Service specific. I don't like that department is, uh, 58 or six. It's somewhere in there. Mm-hmm. Which feels pretty good. We aim at 60, but we don't typically hit, 

Kelson Carter: sometimes it's harder to run. It's like a water heat. It's kind of like an HVAC equipment. Sometimes it's [00:43:00] higher to run a higher gross margin on it.

John Wilson: So yeah, it's a high equipment cost. We should combine water heater purchasing. I feel like there, there has to be a way to do it. Yeah, no, I, there's gotta be a way to it. Yeah. I 

Kelson Carter: totally agree. 

John Wilson: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. We have, um, we have a, a friend and, you know, I were talking about this earlier, but something that's crazy, like.

Is seeing what other people pay for stuff. Yeah. And it, it doesn't, they don't even have to be that big of a Yeah. Uh, difference in business. So I have a, I have a friend in, um, new England and he just bought a new company two weeks ago or three weeks ago, and the water heater price difference. Is like 50%.

Like 50. Wow. And that like, that's a water heater. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. That's a huge difference. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think one, one of the benefits of scale. Yeah. So do you think you'll be engaging in acquisitions as you sort of move forward? Do you think like you'll be launching new locations, like what's your No, my, what does this look like in 10 years?

Kelson Carter: [00:44:00] Yeah. 10 year vision would be. 20 million plus, um, just really trying to own the indie market. Mm-hmm. Um, just keep penciling away at it. Um, I don't see myself opening, I mean, back in the day, maybe opening another location where, hey, 

John Wilson: you, you cut your teeth in multi-locations. Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: So, um, but I, there's not really a need with today's world.

You can have a huge presence on Google. Yeah. Or online and not be, you know, I mean, people tell us all the time that they see our trucks everywhere downtown, and it's like, yeah. I don't have a location there. So, um, I think just having the more trucks on the road, um, helps out better. So just getting better at marketing, uh, knowing what levers to, uh, to push 

John Wilson: if you're, uh, if you're wanting to impart some wisdom.

Onto some up and coming plumbers. What do you think it is? 

Kelson Carter: Uh, I think my best wisdom is it's always too soon to quit. Um, I think that, uh, you know, starting a company from scratch, I've seen what it takes Yeah. To grow something into something. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Zero to 11 is [00:45:00] crazy. Yeah. 

Kelson Carter: So, um, it would've been awesome if it was already 5 million and come in, you know, you kind of already have the, the leadership somewhat, you know, you can.

Just get the ball rolling a lot easier. Um, but that would be my biggest thing is, you know, there's been plenty of times where, you know, you feel like you can't see the end of the runway. So, um, but uh, picking a good team. Yeah. Very hard to get a good team. Especially, you know, the people that are with you today at that small aren't gonna be with you when you're larger.

Yeah, very few. 

John Wilson: That's a lesson that, 

Kelson Carter: that is the hardest thing is Yeah. It, it sucks. And especially when they act like they're gonna be, I can time you guys have said face to face, you know, oh man, I love this company. I'm never going anywhere. Yeah. You know, next thing you know, it's like, oh, I thought you lo, you know, you wanted to be a part of something and then see you later.

So yeah, usually if you're having problems with that person now, uh, just cut it so it's easier to cut your loss now than two years later when you really get cut. So. Um, I [00:46:00] would say that's my advice is just move quick. Mm-hmm. So you got to, do you have any advice for me? Like, you know, 

John Wilson: just keep it simple if you can.

Yeah. Uh, like I have a, again, I, Isaac in Chicago is such a great example. I think that the industry is really quick to add multi trade, including us. Yeah. I, I think in some ways I was at a disadvantage because. When I bought the business, it was a million dollars in sales and it was already two trade. So like we just, I, maybe I should have shut one down and just kept going on one.

But, um, I genuinely think that I would be farther than I am today if we were just one. And I know that just from seeing friends around me who are just one trade pushing farther and, and executing faster. Mm-hmm. Like we get slowed down. We're multi, 

Kelson Carter: so, I mean, you brought a great example for me. I mean, what we're doing on the bottom line.

I mean, it's, it's 

John Wilson: amazing. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. It, uh, it's a [00:47:00] machine. Yeah. So it's just, uh, insightful. Like 

John Wilson: why, why hurt that 

Kelson Carter: you're right. I mean, it's good, it's healthy. So it's like, you know, you could go, go, how do you do more? You could do more top line revenue, but the end of the day, if that healthy bottom line's not there.

And I think that the industry's gotten away from. Talking about the bottom line, you know, why, why everybody's always quick to talk about top line. It's like you see companies that are massive and they're not making any money. It's like, I could have $11 million company taking 2 million to the bottom line.

Yeah. And, you know, 

John Wilson: well, yeah. I think that's, that's been kind of, uh, illuminating for me is I, I, whenever we're talking to somebody and I'm like, trying to learn, 

Kelson Carter: lemme see it. 

John Wilson: You. Yeah. Like, Hey, before I listen to you. Are you doing this better than me? 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Like before I take your advice, is your advice worth taking?

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Like are you driving 5% nets and you're double my size? 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Alright. Well my business is technically worth more than yours. Yeah. Like in that scenario. 

Kelson Carter: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: [00:48:00] Uh, so why would I listen? Like you're not doing it better. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Um. Yeah, I think, yeah, I, I definitely think you gotta be careful who you listen to and I think there's a lot of bullshit out there on the internet, like, and arguably I'm some of that.

Yeah. So I think just be careful who you listen to. But yeah, you've got a healthy business and I think it's awesome. Yeah. So it. I like the whole, like, let's double down on our winners and like you've got, uh, winners. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Like double, triple down. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: If people want to get ahold of you, 

Kelson Carter: uh, they can kelson.Carter@carterservice.com.

That's easy. And uh, yeah, email me. Always open. Awesome. And, uh, I think the next thing I have to say is you, everybody should really look into John's group and, uh, being a part of it. So it's been, uh, 

John Wilson: well, that's been a part of like, let's put our money where our mouth is. Yeah. Here's my, here's my p and l. 

Kelson Carter: So I, I've yet to be in a group that sat there and showed, you know?

Yeah. Um, I think if you're gonna get practice from someone or coaching or mentoring, you need to see that they're actually living it and Yeah. They're not just. [00:49:00] Beating their chest on the internet and, well, 

John Wilson: I think the 

Kelson Carter: group 

John Wilson: is good too. Yeah, no, it's great. But at, in one of our, I think two calls ago, like somebody brought up cash in the bank.

Kelson Carter: Yeah. That was awesome. Yeah, we, yeah, we had a group, group discussion of what everybody had, and it was really good. Yeah. So it, it just makes you, um, whether you're ahead or behind, but it gives you insight to where you need to be because percent instead of, you know, just thinking or, you know, not knowing.

Yeah. So. It's really good. Um, 

John Wilson: yeah, I, I think that's the benefit of like a good group, a tight group, but like open. How do we learn? I mean, I took a ton away from the cash conversation, honestly. Yeah. Um, and like seeing, like seeing your plumbing business is the same size as mine. And like I was, I was talking with, uh, I was talking with my purchasing manager today.

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: I was like, well, he's getting 18% materials and we're getting 22. So like, well, you know, how do we do that? Yeah. How do we get there? 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: Uh, so yeah, it did inspire. 

Kelson Carter: Yeah. 

John Wilson: So I think it's great. 

Kelson Carter: That's awesome. 

John Wilson: Uh, if you like what you heard, make sure you [00:50:00] contact Kelson and then, uh, check out owned and operated.com.

Sign up for the newsletter. And check out our workshop. I think we have breaking five sometime in August and we're about to launch I think a breaking 20. So that should be a lot of fun. Thank you.