The Consumer Always Wins: Building the Business They Actually Want

 In this episode, John Wilson sits down with Jamie from Modernize to unpack how a consumer-obsessed mindset is reshaping home services—from the first inquiry to the final install. They dig into why “experience always wins,” how answer engine optimization (AE/O) is changing search, and what a true platform approach looks like when lead gen, reputation, financing, and programmatic all work together.
You’ll hear how Modernize is building for the full funnel, why smaller, fast-moving operators can out-execute well-funded incumbents, and how to prioritize innovation without getting whiplash from weekly tech shifts.

💡 What You’ll Learn

• Consumer > Everything: Practical ways to map (and measure) the end-to-end experience so customers call you back—again and again
• AE/O, Not Just SEO: How answer engine optimization is rewriting local discovery and the quick-start tactics that move the needle now
• Inquiry to Install: The modern funnel—leads, calls, reputation, email, and conversion flows that actually close jobs
  
  

🎧 Featured Guest

🧠 Jamie — Modernize  

 🎙️ Hosted by John Wilson  

💼 Modernize is how smart contractors scale.

With inbound calls, live transfers, and branded programs, Modernize connects you to ready-to-buy homeowners. Over 9M leads delivered and $4B+ in revenue generated.

👉 Start growing

💼 Extra Special Thanks to Service Scalers!

We’ve been partnering with Service Scalers to maximize our Local Service Ads (LSAs) and optimize our Google My Business profiles, and the results have been incredible. With hundreds of thousands in sales and 900+ calls in a single week, GMBs are now our top-performing organic lead channel.

 Want to learn how Service Scalers can do the same for you?

 🔗Check Them Out Here 

More Ways To Connect with O&O

• John's YouTube Channel
• Weekly Newsletter
• Owned and Operated

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John Wilson, CEO of Wilson Companies
Jack Carr, CEO of Rapid HVAC

📌 Disclaimer: Some links may include UTM parameters or affiliate relationships, meaning we may earn a commission if you make a purchase. Episodes may feature sponsors, but all opinions expressed are our own.

Chapters

• 0:51 Introduction to Modernize and Its Services
• 2:58 The Evolution of Marketing and Technology
• 21:09 The Importance of Speed in Marketing
• 24:55 Adapting to Rapid Technological Changes

Transcript

OAO 257 w/ Modernize

Jamie Smith: [00:00:00] We think about the consumer constantly. Consumer is the one that is forcing us to start really thinking about the experience from beginning to end. You want that return phone call from that customer because consumers are going to continue to search for you. Yeah, I truly believe the consumer will always drive.

Our decision making, you know, whether it's slow or fast, the experience will always win. That's not changing. 

John Wilson: Like the question is, what do you think the next few years looks like? 

Jamie Smith: You know, I think number one, um,

John Wilson: Jamie, welcome back to the show. Thanks for coming back. Appearance number two. 

Jamie Smith: Thank you for having me. I, I am honored to be back. 

John Wilson: You were invite, you didn't say anything too crazy last time. 

Jamie Smith: I know. It's kind of wordy. Neither of us 

John Wilson: were canceled. Uh, so I think, I think we're good to go. 

Jamie Smith: Well, thank you. Thank you for having me.

John Wilson: Yeah. Alright, so [00:01:00] you're joining us. Uh, you work with Modernize and we're just gonna position modernize really quick and then we're gonna dive into some meat and potatoes. So Modernize is a lead partner for, uh, home service companies like mine, like the audience who help us fill the board. That is, is there anything I'm missing on that?

Jamie Smith: Yeah, I mean, and no, I think you, I think you said it well in terms of the day in a life of a, of a customer of ours, um, you know, the only thing that I'd add there is that modernize is here to help our customers grow. Mm-hmm. From inquiry to install. Um, you know, typically, and, and in historically we've been, you know, Hey, how many leads can you get?

And I remember you and I having this conversation and um, I was like, Hey, we're not, oh yeah, you pulled up a map. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. That's great. Yes. 

Jamie Smith: Yeah. And I was like, Hey, we're not a lead aggregator. Don't call us an lead aggregator. I used the, I 

John Wilson: used the right word. 

Jamie Smith: I've checked. Um, yeah. And I think now, you know, we've, we've, um, continuously in the last, you know, two to three years, been adding products, um, and services to really help [00:02:00] enable our customers because, you know.

Leads are one thing, but as we've worked with our customers, they've really, like, lately they've really been, um, leaning on us to, to really look at the full funnel because we look at the full funnel to optimize for some of our leads products. Yeah. Um, so I think you got it. You know, every, every single day, uh, customers are asking us, you know, how can they generate more?

Um, uh, but excitingly, a lot of the new pieces of modernize are around focusing. Uh, around, you know, inquiry to install, right? How can we help accelerate, um, your own, uh, marketing funnels, uh, to really help yeah, your own business, um, uh, not just what we're providing to you. So that's been, that's been the, the last, you know, year, year, two years.

Um, in addition to the day and a life of, of. My media teams continuing to perform for our customers. 

John Wilson: Hey, everybody knows that leads are tough to come by, but what if they weren't Service? Scalers is the no [00:03:00] BS marketing team just for home service contractors. They run S-E-O-P-P-C-L-S-A and GMB campaigns that actually bring in customers and not just clicks.

They've delivered me tons of leads tied to real revenue, and they can do the same for you. If you sign a 12 month contract, your first month is free. Click the link below to get started. And just to like break that out a little bit. And I think the word that we're using here is like plat platforming or izing.

Uh, I think I like izing. It's even worse. That's interesting. I think, I think the idea is like. There's financing products that, like what, what is between lead in, you said inquiry to install, so like what all was in there? 

Jamie Smith: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, uh, we do, we, we built a platform, um, uh, because of what our customers have been asking us for in the last few years.

Um, so platform to us is a marketing platform to really help. Customers from, from their own, you know, SEO efforts all the way to, you know, um, [00:04:00] brands that really wanna optimize, uh, programmatically, um, uh, to what you're mentioning. Our finance product. We've had a lot of, um, customers come to us to help us close more jobs, um, by offering, uh, some of our financing.

Um. Products, which are really just looking at and offering solutions to consumers, right? So at the end of the day, um, our ethos, our platform is surrounded around a consumer that is raising their hand, um, and they're raising their hand through a variety of different ways, methods, and that's just a aggressively changing, right?

Uh, too. A year ago, you and I were talking about, you know, optimizing for like SMS and you know, marketing automation, and now I'm like, man, we really need like to double down on SEO efforts because of the way that you can rank nowadays and it's gonna constantly change. Like that's the, yeah. The most amazing thing about marketing, but the platform, our, our, the platform that we've built is really to [00:05:00] truly optimize each piece of the marketing funnel.

All the way to supporting our customers with additional financing tools to help really and truly close business. Um, uh, yeah. 'cause it's. It's getting, it's, it's hard. It's hard every day for our customers, um, no matter the trade, no matter the service, no matter the day. Um, uh, so really our inspiration was that, and the ethos that we sit on is the consumer and making it easier for the consumer to find the cu to, to find our customers.

So, 

John Wilson: yeah, that makes sense. So I think what we're talking about is kind of this for the. You know, next couple minutes is the I, this idea that, um, the way I think about it internally is e everyone is becoming everything, or like everyone is more adding breadth. Uh, I'll give some examples. Um, some I even have written in my notes and some are just like examples that I see.

Uh, the, the [00:06:00] most obvious example is like every app that we touch as Wilson now has an ai CSR. Like, I think almost every single one and just like you're trying to go from the sort of inquiry to install. Most of the apps that have ever touched the inbound customer are now trying to cover the entire customer journey, going from inbound customer to completed install and all the workflows in between.

And it's just kind of funny because it started off with one, like sort of raising their hand and saying like, Hey, we are gonna do this. Mm-hmm. Now everyone is this platform to build your business on. Like, I'm, I have like a few other examples, but like, do you have an idea of like, what's driving the trend just from where you're sitting?

Jamie Smith: Yeah. I mean, it's a good question, right? I think you and I could spend hours talking about it sometimes. What, what I, when I think about, you know, the evolution of the industry, 'cause we're [00:07:00] kind of, we're talking about that, right? Um, right. I like to look outwards. Um, and I, and I like to think about myself as a consumer.

Um. It sounds crazy, but I think we all, as marketers and, and even maybe, um, you know, those folks in, in sales and customer service in this industry, um, I mean I think we probably have all ordered pizza through Domino's Tracker and I go back to this use case 'cause it's completely different than home Services, but it, it makes a lot of sense to me.

Um. It's amazing that you can see the Domino's pizza come outta the oven. Like, I don't know, have you ever ordered Domino's Pizza and seen it come to the oven? No. I mean, I kind of wanna, but 

John Wilson: like John, this is cra like, I'm gonna do this. I'm now, I'm gonna do this, 

Jamie Smith: I'm gonna have to order pizza for you so you can see it.

I'm like your, 

John Wilson: I'll accept it. Uh, gluten-free please. And. So like you order this pizza and it's literally the entire, like, it shows it coming outta the oven. [00:08:00] 

Jamie Smith: Literally like literally step by step. That's, you will see the Domino's pizza process all the way to the driver, getting to your front doorstep and, alright, so this is like an experience.

John Wilson: We've, we've taken pizza to an experience. Okay. 

Jamie Smith: Right. Right. And it's, um, you know, I don't wanna say that it's an expectation, but I think it's the experience that the consumer now is seeing and you name it, and there's a, there's probably an incredible experience that you've had as a consumer that creates a loyal consumer.

Right? And here's the thing about our industry. It's merging and it's growing at the same time and it's merging. So you're seeing some of these like softwares and these enablement tools start to merge and create breadth because the consumer is the one that's driving that. Because with consumer loyalty, you will continue to generate more and more business, right?

So you unpack that. You look at, uh, things [00:09:00] like, um. Some of, some of our amazing customers who are adding more trades and services, right? And that's because of the loyalty factor in addition to a lot of other, other pieces. But you know, we think about the consumer constantly day in and day out, and I think the consumer is the one that is forcing us to start really thinking about the experience from beginning to end.

Then when you start to tie that into how to, to generate and create that experience, this is why you're seeing those AI CSRs in every single platform, and you're starting to see, even us, like consumers are asking, customers are asking us about, you know, Hey, what can we do about our reputation or what we like, can, can we actually get ranked organically, right?

Mm-hmm. These questions are coming to us because they realize that cons consume, getting to a con, to customer lo loyalty. Their eyes is that incredible experience. And, um, yeah, I mean, that's an opinion, but I think you could name an [00:10:00] experience as yourself, as a consumer and what, and that brand and that brand is becoming so relevant in this really ever-changing industry.

Um, and you really, you want that return phone call from that customer, right? And to do that, that means you have to be. Really and truly thinking about the most incredible experience that a cons consumer can have with your brand. Um, so all of this like consolidation and work and technology and the services within it is coming together in my opinion, so that we can support the consumer going through that process from mm-hmm.

Beginning to end. Um. I don't know. That's my opinion of it. Um, there's so many different stories. There's like a story about Nordstrom, right? Nordstrom, same thing like consumer mindset. Um, they will do anything and everything for the, for the consumer, right? Um, even to the [00:11:00] point where if they don't have a product, that sales rep is actually encouraged to go and get the product for that customer that's coming to them because their ethos is customer service and.

That is like you're starting from someone walking into the store, to someone coming to the, you know, coming and not finding what they need and then someone coming and delivering it so that Nordstrom comes to the back of their mind. That's why I think you're seeing all this consolidation in the industry.

That's why I think you're seeing it, and that's why you're seeing all these technology partners start to merge and really like, hey, like we need to make this better. So that, as. Contractors, home service professionals continue to grow and grow and grow. They're growing with that service in mind. So 

John Wilson: when you think about this on like the service provider side, like my side of this, uh, what I think is interesting is I, I look at the [00:12:00] landscape five years ago and I've, I've gone back and forth on this and I don't know what the right answer is, and I, who, who knows if anyone will, but.

Five years ago, very different landscape. A lot of smaller providers, like 10 years ago, a lot of much smaller providers, right? Like it was unusual to find a $10 million shop anywhere in like 2015. And, um, now obviously private equities consolidate a lot, but also just private operators have gotten better.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: Uh, it, it went from a. Our, our section of the industry went from like a sleepy industry to, uh, like you are now competing against smart people every day with like a lot of capability. And that's just been like a funny change in the decade and a half of my career in this trade is like, I'm used to competing with people with fax machines and now like you're competing against like real com, like real competition.

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. And 

John Wilson: something that I think is funny as like Apex is [00:13:00] huge and. All of these large consolidators in our space is, uh, it doesn't feel moed. So I like the question is, what do you think the next few years looks like? I'm looking at Apex, I'm looking at Wrench, I'm looking at Heartland. I'm looking at all these different consolidators that grabbed all of the players that were big five years ago, but today there's a new round of big players, like companies that didn't exist five years ago are now doing 30, 40, $50 million.

Like. Companies have grown like crazy in the past five years and like, I don't know, it, it, it's just, it seems interesting to me that it was, that everyone was gobbled up and now Yeah, there's a new swath ready, like ready to go. 

Jamie Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, I love the word moed. Um, I think I'm gonna take that, uh, going forward.

You're welcome. Yeah. Yeah, you're welcome. Um, yeah, but I think it's, I think it's actually a really good, like. [00:14:00] Framing of what has to happen, right? Like we've talked about the last, you just said the five, the last five years, this has been a wild ride. Um, but even the previous, yeah, I have friends 

John Wilson: that didn't exist in the industry.

Yeah. That run like in 2020 that run 30 and 40, $50 million operations today. Like they, their company either didn't exist or they hadn't bought it yet, and it was a two or $3 million operation. Like, I don't know, the big players were gobbled up, but now all the big players are. Becoming local. 

Jamie Smith: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 3: Which 

John Wilson: is just like a, in the last couple years thing.

And I, it's just weird. It's interesting. 

Jamie Smith: Yeah. I mean, you know, I think a lot of it though, when I think about it, right? It's like, well, the why, why, why are they getting gobbled up? Why, why are we seeing this? Um, and again, not to be cliche, but maybe it's 'cause I live and breathe consumers all day long. Think about the consumer.

The consumer is now the, the consumer has [00:15:00] changed that landscape, the consumer expectation, the consumer's needs, um, and how they search and how they look for help in this industry. All of that. They, they, these guys, wrench, et cetera. Have taken advantage of that. And now, you know, when you talk about moed, it goes back to the experience.

That's why you're seeing some of the consolidation that you're seeing in software and like how do you create that incredible easy experience for consumers because we all are becoming so sophisticated. Um, we, we, meaning you and I, you and I are are consumers, right? We don't wanna sit and deal with fax machines to get a quote for something that we need serviced in our home.

Um, and that expectation, 

John Wilson: no, when I start, when I started in the company, it did have a fax machine when I bought it nine years ago. Yeah. One of the first things I did, I got rid of in like the first 30 days was the fax machine. It was like a monumental, uh, moment for me. 

Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. We also 

John Wilson: [00:16:00] had like one of those printers that would print on like three pieces of paper and that was our work orders.

A lot's changed in nine years. 

Jamie Smith: Where do you think that fax machine is now? I have no idea, but 

John Wilson: I don't know. Well, it actually was a pain point for a while. 'cause people kept faxing us for a few years. It's, we didn't have it. 

Jamie Smith: Could you imagine? Vendors were like, what do you 

John Wilson: mean you don't have a fax machine?

It's like, what are we supposed to do with this? 

Jamie Smith: Oh, that means John, you're an early adopter, is basically what that means. Um, I think that means I'm 

John Wilson: old. I just think it just means I'm old. I 

Jamie Smith: don't use that terminology. I just, I'm just gonna say early adoption. Um, 

John Wilson: I've been in the industry too long. 

Jamie Smith: I could say the 

John Wilson: same for myself.

I wanna hit, um, I wanna hit a EO. Okay. Okay. We're gonna, we're gonna hit it. We're sort like, hit it and then bounce off it. Okay. Uh, keep moving. A e. The what AI version of SEO is that like certain better way to say that's what they say? That's what they say, what they 

Jamie Smith: [00:17:00] say. Um, today it's called a EO, um, which the terminology means answer engine optimization.

Um, uh, to me and the way that my team thinks about it, um, it is a new way to optimize for SEO because consumers are going to continue to search for you. Yeah. Like, that's not changing. What is changing? And I, I think I shared a little bit about with, um, with you on this before, um, what is changing? Is the device, the mechanism that.

The search query is, um, talk about a consumer that you're, you're targeting. Maybe you're, you're targeting a consumer that's 55 to 65 years old and you're like, eh, you know, they're not using ai and like everyone talks about ai. It's very cliche. Um, yeah. Uh, but here's the thing. That consumer is still using [00:18:00] Google, and Google just rolled out AI mode to every desktop.

The US and they have said that that will be fully rolled out across the board by the end of the year. Um, so to me, we have to optimize just like SEO, just like you think about your businesses every single day when it comes to how you optimize for SEO. This is just another piece of that. Today, it's called a EO, I don't know what it will be called later, but um, no matter what it is changing.

We just talked about the industry changing. Evolving. Same thing. Same thing. The consumer will change the way that they search because the actual output tools and ways that consumers can search for you, the brand, that that is changing. So, um, you have to continue to think about that. Um, you know, you gotta, you, [00:19:00] sorry, you gotta throw out the fax machine sometimes, and this is an example of that.

It doesn't mean that you should just like completely cancel out SEO, right? 'cause SEO is a piece of that. Um, but we are encouraging our customers, um, to really, really think about that and your experience because that consumer, whether they're 55 to 65 or they're 25 to 35. The device, the way that you are searching is, is changing.

Um, uh, and, and, you know, you gotta be ready for it. So that's what a EO is. Um, uh, give like a 

John Wilson: quick tip, like a couple most impactful things somebody could just do to aid their a EO. 

Jamie Smith: Yeah, good, good question. You know, I think number one, um, f you know, from a strategy standpoint and a framework standpoint.

Think about it differently, um, don't just tie it into SEO. [00:20:00] Um, that's number one. Uh, when you start thinking differently about it, then things will, will change within your structure, the way you think, what the way your teams operate, et cetera. Number two, how our team thinks about it. FAQs, um, uh, and how we think about it is we sit as a consumer and we say, Hey, I need to search for a local plumber.

I need the best local plumber. Who is that? And you respond in that way. Um, uh, be cognizant to go and look for, um, how to index. 'cause it's care. You gotta be careful with that. But think about FAQs. Um, probably the number third piece of it. Um, do it now. Do it now because, because your competitor is going to do it and you wanna be there first.

Um, uh, and I think that that is, you know, those, those three things are pretty high level, but I think if you start that framework, you start thinking about [00:21:00] FAQs and start thinking about, Hey, what is a consumer. Going to plug into something like this, right? Yeah. Um, all of a sudden your mindset changes and then you can start operating.

Um, uh, but I think you gotta move fast, like. Five years. Like that's, that is a blip. Like that happened so quickly. Mm-hmm. Um, we talked a year ago, like it feels like yesterday. Right? So I think that that's, that's my biggest advice. FAQ put think about it separately and try to go fast if you can. Or reach out, reach out to your partners, your marketing agencies, um, uh, to get some support because.

This is indexing and it's indexing quickly and a use case for us, right? So we have consumers all day long that are looking, looking for, um, uh, you know, they're typing their keywords, right? We have a big SEO machine, um, in our world. Um, what is really interesting about this too is the, when we started thinking [00:22:00] about FAQs and started formatting to what consumers would be questioning and servicing.

Was the minute that we actually saw three x the conversion and four x the return for a customer. Which is wild because we That is wild. We answered the question for the consumer. The consumer, yeah. Like these consumers have been asking these questions and because we just added to our framework, we added this to our framework, we, we immediately saw that return.

So that's the. That's the quick and dirty and I would say try, try to do it quickly. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Who do you feel like leads the pack? I'll end context to my question. I remember in 2019, you know, I was young, younger for, 

Jamie Smith: for aging ourselves, but 

John Wilson: yeah. And I remember, uh, like the first big competitor in my market got bought [00:23:00] in 2018.

I was really intimidated by that. I was like, man, private equity. And uh, then I spent the next four or five years competing against it and I was really grateful that I was competing against private equity. 'cause they're very like predictable to compete against. It's kind of fun and, and uh, like usually easy.

I'm sure it depends on the operator, but like they just have different motives. 

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: And one of the things that I've noticed, I think most people have noticed. I would assume that the most funded competitors, which would be some version of a private equity, a private equity backed something, is not going to lead the pack on this because they're driving at a different outcome.

They're driving at EBITDA for whatever their next raise is. They're not attempting to innovate or be ahead. So I'm trying to imagine as you're saying this, like one of your comments was, do it now your competitors will be doing it. And on on one hand, I'm like, yeah, that makes sense. Like if we can take an action, we should take an action soon.

But then it's like, who is the competitor that would be doing this? Because all of the best funded [00:24:00] people tell me if I'm wrong, won't be doing this. Mm-hmm. Because it's counter to their ethos of driving EBITDA and just making it to their next raise. 

Jamie Smith: Yeah, that's a, um, that's a good question and a great observation.

'cause, you know, it does make sense. Um, there are some of the, we'll call 'em the, the big guys right? That will not prioritize these types of, um, customer acquisition channels. Yeah. They're 

John Wilson: mode, they're in. Yeah. It's just a diff which I would be too if I were in their shoes. Like, I have no punches to throw here.

It's just like they're coming at this from a different perspective. 

Jamie Smith: Yeah, totally, totally. I think it, like, when I think about going fast and like the y um, and who's coming after, you know, X customer in this, in this world, um, uh, you know. I don't think anyone is doing it great because to be honest with you, we're all trying to figure it out at the same time, right?

Yeah. Like this is [00:25:00] happening so rapidly. Um, and I, again, I don't wanna be cliche about like AI and the, and technology, but I think that, um. Because it's happening so quickly, consumers are actually getting swept up in it. Um, uh, so home services organizations need to think about the consumer getting swept up in that.

The people that do think about that will win. This media channel, and I think of it as a brand new media channel, frankly. Um, it kind of is. 

John Wilson: That makes sense. 

Jamie Smith: Yeah. Like that's the way that I've been coaching our team and our organization and what, and as customers have been reaching out to us, you know, we coach them to think that way as well.

Um, so I don't know. Probably not a great answer, but I don't think anyone's doing it great because everyone's just trying to figure it out and, you know, you're trying to run to the next, the next, you know. The next big win. I do think that the big guys that don't pay attention, um, they'll probably be hindered by this because I think it's a new media [00:26:00] source that, um, consumers will drive.

Attention to in the next few years. Yeah. Um, so those that are like winning first, um, you know, the early adopters as we say, um, that are enabling themselves to adopt a new media channel that will help them. Um, uh, so my opinion, like some of the smaller organizations, the localized 

Speaker 3: Yep. 

Jamie Smith: Organizations are going a founder to steal a lot of wins.

Yeah. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Jamie Smith: But I don't, you know, transparently, like I don't. I don't see anyone really winning because I, I just, I think we're all still trying to figure it out, but, 

John Wilson: yeah. Well, and it's, it's not gonna sit 

Jamie Smith: there. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Like FAQs is like, helpful, but what, you know, what'll it be in 30 days or what'll 

Speaker 3: mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. 

John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. It, it is, it is interesting. You know, we, I think over the last, we made a lot of investments, uh. Early ai, which is like, you know, [00:27:00] 24 months ago. And, uh, so we made a lot of investments early AI in like our SEO efforts. 

Speaker 3: Okay. 

John Wilson: Yeah. And it did catapult us like very quickly, um, like a lot of programmatic work, but like locally, so not like big enough to feel huge impact.

Okay. Yeah. But. That was helpful. Um, like tens of thousands of pages. Like it was a lot, it was early i ai stuff like just mass production. 

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, 

John Wilson: um, it worked. Yeah. Like, but we haven't done much since then. Um, partially because like, maybe, maybe it's less founder led 'cause I was leading the discipline at that time versus like, let's fill the board, you know, more, um.

High level now, but it, so I'm, yeah. I'm imagining it from my perspective, like I'm already not probably investing or thinking about it the way I should be, and if I was like several more steps removed, like we definitely would be or would not be. So, yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. A new era for growth Yeah. Or something.

Jamie Smith: Do you think that like, I mean, it's [00:28:00] changing so much so as you know, someone who's running a business in this world, like how do you, how do you think about prioritizing. Something like this, knowing that it is gonna change, but you, you know, you don't wanna, you don't wanna miss out, especially because you made some early uh, advances.

I'm just curious, what, what do you think about that when you think about prioritization? 

John Wilson: Uh, the new media channel makes sense. I hadn't thought of it that way before. I do think that that makes sense. I think that early adopters tend to win, like most things we've gotten on early. We didn't get on social early, but you know, there's some good examples of, um.

Like this company got on this medium at the right time, and they went from zero to 40 million in 36 months. Uh, like we see, we've seen a lot of that since 2020, frankly, like Yeah. It's kind of unreal. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. And I think, um, so the way I'm, the way we're thinking about it now, we have, we have tended to take over the last [00:29:00] six months, we wanted to be an early adopter.

For most things. And then in the last six months we've taken a more cautious approach and we now wanna be slightly more middle of the road adopter. And that's like holistic. That's not marketing in general. That's just like how we approach all things. We have just slowed down. Okay. 

Speaker 3: Intentionally. 

John Wilson: Um. But it does create, like are we missing opportunities and some of that, some of our sky our size, which isn't huge, but like it's big enough that we have to get alignment from everyone that would be involved in it.

Um. I'm less in the weeds on marketing or call center or whatever that specific thing is. So things tend to move a little bit slower. The plus side is they get done better, so we move slower, but we're more, we're better operators and better executors. So yeah, I, that's like our current stance. I, I don't know.

It could be right. It could be wrong. 

Jamie Smith: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I could be wrong too. Right. Um, I think, uh, I think it's an interesting [00:30:00] dynamic that per, you know. Organizations have to make a decision on us. Yeah. We've made a decision on, um, early adoption, supporting our customers, making sure they're informed, um, uh, and then, you know, making like our, our, one of our jobs now is to make sure that consumers are finding our customers.

Yeah. Um, so because of that, we're, we are making that a early adoption. You know, investment per se in terms of like, getting ahead of it. Um, what I think is exciting though, like back to like when we're talking about experience and, and change, like whether you're middle of the road or you're, or you're early adopting, like, I think what I resonate with is that like, we're just gonna be continuing to change and move so quickly.

Like this is not Yeah. No matter what. Um, I don't know. That kind of gives me like a little bit of. Pain, but I'm also like, all right, like this is just, this is just how it is. You're gonna continue to evolve and continue to change. You know? 

John Wilson: I, I think [00:31:00] it, I think that's a part of why we've slowed down adoption.

So like a couple years ago, if we look at like, technology was more static, which is good and bad. If I made a, a technology decision, that decision had some staying power, like it was probably gonna work for 12 to 24 months. Today, that's not the case at all. If you make a technology decision, it very well may be outdated in three weeks.

Yeah. 

Speaker 3: Which is 

John Wilson: crazy valid. So it, it makes it harder to become this early adopter for like a one. That's one reason. And the other is because of the amount of product that has come to market. Post, you know, the ServiceTitan going. I like IPO the amount of funding that's entered our industry. Uh, there's a lot of like barely MVP products that are being sold as completed products [00:32:00] at massive premiums.

So you, you see this a lot where like, this product really isn't functioning and. You know, how would it, they spun it up last week on lovable and, uh, but they're selling it for $10,000 a month or something. And, and so it, it's, and it's hard to become the AI expert that can, like, yes, this product is gonna work.

No, this product's not gonna work. So I think that's adopted like a slower, um, mentality. 

Jamie Smith: Yeah. No, it's in, so 

John Wilson: I, I don't know the right answer, but like that's, that's a big part of the why we're cautious now more cautious now. 

Jamie Smith: Yeah. Yeah. But that makes sense. Um, at, at least to me, that makes sense as to how you are stabilizing.

You're still focused on the, on the consumer experience, which at the end of the day Yeah. You know, I, I still, I truly believe the consumer. We'll always drive our decision making. Mm-hmm. Whether, you know, we as modernize or we as modernize helping our [00:33:00] customers, um, uh, and our customers really evolving. So no matter the decision, I think the consumer will drive it.

And, um, I think we'll all just keep following that. Um, you know, whether it's slow or fast, um, the experience will always win. 

John Wilson: Just closing us out here and like, I wanna, I wanna bring this back 'cause I think it's important as we talk about consolidating and ev everything becoming a platform modernize has brought on more to basically help.

What, what was the name of the financing? 

Jamie Smith: Yeah, it's called 360 Finance. Yeah. 360 Finance. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah, 

John Wilson: a friend told me about that. Um. Premier Home Pros. I don't remember what episode number they're on, but they were like big fans of 360 Finance and they like did an intro to us like six months ago or something, and it was, it was modernized.

We're like, oh, oh, hey guys. Like, what's up? I think game on the call or something. Yeah. Yes, yes. And like, how are you guys thinking about like breadth beyond [00:34:00] that? Like you're probably cont you said a reputation, like you're continuing to think about other things. 

Jamie Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I like to explain it in, you know, we, we talk about inquiry to install, um, and our history has been around, um, you know, generating leads for our, our consumer, for consumer leads, for our customers.

Um, we do call products as well. Um, sometimes, um, you know, a lead doesn't work for a specific type of customer. Um, so we have call products. All of that is around, you know, generating more demand for. Customers. Um, yeah. Uh, recently we've really started to, to, we've launched what we call marketing platform services, which are, uh, services that support customers around everything.

Around their brand and the way that they're accelerating. Um, uh, and it's really just to help them because they've been knocking on our door asking for, um, different support. Um, and what's really interesting is [00:35:00] because when you work with us as a customer, I think last time we talked a lot about like our data feedback loop.

Yeah. We can start to really understand how, how our marketing channels are working and then benchmark that against yours with your data. Um, and I think that what. What really grew marketing platform services as a, as a group and as an entity of ours, um, was because we knew that we could help customers, and customers were asking for our help as we were supporting them with how to optimize campaigns and how to improve some of their set rates and sit rates.

Um, uh, so really the story of modernize has been truly like born on data and data that supports our customers. And our customers knocking on our door asking for help. So our marketing platform services, we do programmatic. Um, so we do a lot of programmatic work. Um, uh, we do, we talk a little bit about a EO and SEO.

Um, a lot of customers. It's a lot of work and a [00:36:00] lot of investments. So we've started to support customers, um, with that. I mean, these 

John Wilson: are gonna be like larger cu like programmatic is a project, so these are gonna be probably much larger customers like multi-market. 

Jamie Smith: Yes, yes. Yeah, programmatic, definitely. Um, you know, I think that that's one of the really cool, I call it selfishly cool thing for us is that, um, you know, we're not gonna recommend, you know, all of the services depending on who you are, right?

We're the thing that's really, um, you know, again, to our ethos of, of supporting customers and customer growth is when you start to connect the data and you empower us to, to do more and better with some of our, our lead generation, um, services. That can help us provide some recommendations on what services we can help you with internally.

Right? Reputation management is a really good one. Um, uh, email marketing, right? Even some of, um, you know, the conversion optimization on your flows like. I have a full team of conversion optimization folks internally that are working to [00:37:00] find the right lead for the con for the customer if you need help.

Like, why can't we just, why can't we support the customer too? So that's really been born in the last, you know, I call it like six to eight months as cu like customers have asked us for years to support them in this way. Mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm really excited that we have this, you know. Opportunity to bring this to life.

And then you mentioned our 360 product, which, yeah. Um, that one has been a little bit behind the scenes for, you know, a, a few years as we've really, really, really taken some time to think through that product. Um, yeah. And to support customers. And, um, you know, 360 is really. It's that full end-to-end financing experience for the consumer and the customer, um, to close more business.

And, um, you know, I think all of that. It's been a wild few years for us. Um, but it's exciting 'cause it keeps going. It's back, you know, it touches what we think about [00:38:00] day in and day out, which is closing more business for our customers, um, uh, industry. It's changing. We're changing and growing. And with that though, at the end of the day, that really helps our customers because our customers success.

John Wilson: Means 

Jamie Smith: that we are successful 

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Jamie, thanks for coming on the show today. This was an awesome conversation. 

Jamie Smith: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Um, I'm not kidding. I'm gonna have a pizza delivered to your office. I will 

John Wilson: eat it. I will eat it. I'll tweet about the experience. That sounds amazing. Uh, thanks. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. If people wanna understand [00:39:00] more about what Modernize does, like what's the best way to get in touch?

Jamie Smith: Yeah. Um, modernize.com is a great resource. Um, you can go to modernize.com/pros. Um, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn as well. Um, if there's any questions or, um, any thoughts, um, uh, about strategy or marketing, I'm always ready to nerd out, so just reach out. 

John Wilson: Awesome. Thank you. 

Jamie Smith: Thank you.