Mother/Daughter Estrangement with Jodi Larae Cunningham

In this powerful episode of Coaching Your Family Relationships, I sit down with Jodi Larae Cunningham, author of Estrangement Healing for Mothers and Daughters. Jodi shares her personal journey of mother-daughter estrangement and the deep generational patterns that influenced it. Through personal growth, responsibility, and emotional healing, she found a path to reconnection. We explore how family conflict often stems from unexamined patterns, the importance of differentiation, and the courage it takes to break free from unhealthy cycles.

Key Takeaways:

• How generational patterns contribute to family estrangement
• The role of differentiation in healing family relationships
• Why personal growth and taking responsibility are essential steps toward reconciliation
• How to navigate the pain of estrangement and find peace, even when relationships remain distant
• Practical tools for fostering safe, open communication between mothers and daughters

Resources & Links:
If you have a relationship with an adult child that is suffering, download this free guide:

5 Steps to Reconnect with Your Adult Child

You’ll begin healing the hurt you’re carrying, and your heart will feel lighter and more hopeful. You’ll begin taking a different road to building that precious relationship instead of walking on eggshells and riding the roller coaster of disconnection and frustration. 

Click Here to Download the Guide

Jodi’s Website: Jodilaraecunningham.com

Link to Jodi’s Book: Estrangement: Healing for Mothers and Daughters

Rate & Review:
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Tina Gosney is the Family Conflict Coach. She helps her clients move past contention in their homes and move into connection. Developing healthy family relationships can change lives.
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Tina is certified in family relationships and a trauma informed coach.
Visit tinagosney.com for more information on coaching services.

Transcript

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Tina, welcome to the podcast today. I'm Tina Gosney, a family conflict coach, and this is where we talk about messy family topics and how to work through them. Today's topic is a pretty messy one, because it's about estrangement, estrangement with mothers and daughters, and I have a guest Jodi LeRae Cunningham. She's the author of estrangement healing for mothers and daughters. She's a really great story. And if you've been listening to the last few episodes about when I'm talking about how families handle stress, and if you have you'll notice some of those same patterns that I've talked about in Jodi's experience in her story. Before we get into that, though, I want to remind you there's a free download for you five steps to begin healing the relationship with your adult child. So especially if you are experiencing something like Jodi, where you have some estrangement going on in your family, or you see this might happen down the road, then you need this training. Also, Jodi talks about how it just kind of came out of nowhere for her. She did not think that that was where she was going to end up, and she was surprised when she did. So if that is also you, you have no plans for being estranged for your children in the future. You might want to go download this, this pdf training, just to start getting some perspective, because you never know what will happen in the future. The training is not long, but it's going to steer you in a helpful direction. It's going to help you to open up your mind and your perspective to some things that you haven't thought about before. Now here are some of the things that you're going to hear in this episode, that families handle stress and anxiety in predictable ways, and one thing that's very interesting is the generational pattern of estrangement in Jody's family between mothers and daughters. She tells how this happened for several generations in a row, and families will repeat patterns. This is such a good example of this, you're also going to hear how Jodi put herself into some uncomfortable situations, and how she did not shy away from those. She took responsibility for her part, and she didn't try to blame or put responsibility, all that responsibility on her children, and she looked for answers when she didn't have someone else's example to follow. Now, when we are developing differentiation, these are vital skills that need to be developed. We need to be uncomfortable for the sake of our growth, for the sake of our own personal growth, and the growth of their relationship, it requires uncomfortableness, and we need to take responsibility for ourselves, not putting that on someone else. Your brain loves to look at other people and say, there's something wrong with them. They need to change. They've got to work on that. What it doesn't want to do and it will actually resist doing, is to look inward and say, Hey, what have I done? Or what am I doing right now that has contributed to this situation. Your brain keeps that from you on purpose, another thing that we need to do when developing differentiation is moving forward even when we're not sure we're doing the right thing. Now our brain will resist this. It will want to know that you have all the answers, that you have the exact map between A to Z, and you can't know that. It doesn't want to put in the effort until it knows these are the exact things I'm going to do, and this is the result that I'm going to get. But this is just a lie that our brain tells us so that we can avoid doing difficult things and avoid possible failure, especially when the stakes seem so high, when we fail and make mistakes on our way to where we want to be. That is how we learn. We have to take a step forward first see if it worked. If it did, we take another step forward if it didn't, and we made a wrong step, we made a mistake. We learn from it. We make mistakes. That is a human thing. We can apologize, we can work to repair when that happens, and then we can continue to move forward. I hope you get so much valuable information from this conversation that we had. The link to her book is in the show notes, so go check it out. Okay, I've got Jody Cunningham on the podcast today. Really excited to talk to her, because I've been reading her book, and it's really amazing. I'm gonna let Jody, I'm gonna let you introduce yourself and just tell the listeners who you are, who where, how you came to be, where you are, and just a little bit about yourself so they can get to know you. Great. Hello, everybody. I'm actually Jodi. Cunningham. My middle name is L, A, R, A, E, you can actually find my website. Jody, larae cunningham.com, online, and we're actually talking about a book that came out that I wrote earlier this year. It's called estrangement, healing for mothers and daughters. I have a 28 year old daughter and a 31 year old son. We were estranged for seven years, and during that time, I actually went through a big journey of healing myself and getting some other ideas, other than my own family, familiar ideas on how to solve problems, and I put them down in this book. So there's like eight chapters of very helpful tips that will help even, you know, men with their dads with their sons. But I specifically geared this towards my daughter and towards mothers and daughters, because women have a special bond, and as we learn how to really love ourselves and love with other people, we can get right with ourselves and right with other people. So I just basically started there. I was married for 33 years, but I am single right now, and I've just, you know, it's just interesting where life's taken me. I've lived in 15 states. I've lived over in Europe. So I grew up in Montana, so I've got a rich background of meeting many, many people. I noticed in your book that you said you were married to a military guy, so you moved a lot? Yeah, I was an officer wife in the United States Navy for nuclear power, and there was one year that we moved three times. So I home educated our kids through seventh and eighth grade, because we were in seven different states during that time. And you know, it was the best decision ever. I'm so glad I did it, especially now that they're grown and gone. And, you know, they have skills that I was able to help make sure they have and and, you know, it was a good it was good, good momentum for us, good. Well, we're talking about estrangement today, and I appreciate that introduction that you can just let us know that this is a first hand experience for you. And you also mentioned in your book that you it's not just your children that you're estranged from, but you also went through something like that with your mother too. Do you mind sharing anything about that? Oh, sure, no problem. So it's interesting, because one of the things I grew up realizing is that, you know, my I saw my mom estranged from her own mom during different times, they would always kind of work things out. But my grandmother was strong, like I am, as far as very independent. My mom kind of went along to get along, so she but they still had some issues, and then my grandmother's mother and her had issues, and it goes back, actually, like four generations. So I actually set out to do life differently, because every single estrangement between a mother and daughter, believe it or not, the real iceberg was the relationship between the husband and the wife, the iceberg and how you related to your children. And then, you know, the mucular family is just very important. So I just, you know, start, I got married at 19, if you can believe that. But I was married 33 years. And, you know, just created a world that I thought was a safe, strong place of forward momentum. But it turned out that some of the same communication issues that my mother and her mother and her mother before that had were relevant in my own children with me. And so I was like, Okay, I try to do everything different. I ended up in the same spot. Yeah. How did you start identifying some of those issues? Because you were seeing what had happened generations before you, but then it's it's so much harder to see it when it's you and your own relationship with your child. How did you start recognizing some of the things that you needed to work on on your side? Well, it was interesting, because estrangement with my children was a big shock, so when they wanted to estrange, I just thought it was like, we'd have, we'd have family meetings, and it was kind of fun, you know, we would wear this, like, goofy little shower cap and a big microphone, and everybody would talk and say, Hey, this happened. I don't like this. Don't do this to me again, you know, because I come from a big, joking family and, you know, just different things that we were all working on, and it seemed to go well. So when they said, I've had enough with, you know, the way my husband and I were doing parenting and doing marriage and doing family, I remember going to my counselor, and the counselor said, you're an estrangement, like I'm not an estrangement. Who are you talking to? These kids are going to work it out. But she was right. I was an estrangement, and at that time, I had experienced almost instantly, mothers either being on the side of very, very morally superior thinking they were did everything right for their children and. And their children were ungrateful, but they also experienced mothers that thought the whole world was going to crash. And I know that there was a middle ground. So I think a lot about middle ground, and middle ground, to me, is like a virtue. And if you slide off to one side, you're into a vice, and you slide off the other into a vice. So for example, virtue of courage. Courage is a virtue, but if you rush in, it's a vice, and if you cower, it's a vice. And so just I knew I needed help, and so I started the journey of trying to search for answers, because I knew that I did something wrong. I had it wrong, and I had to take responsibility for my part. And so I was bound and determined to flip every single rock and figure out what was going on. I think that's such a virtue in you that you're you weren't willing to go to those extremes, to one side or the other, to, you know, to go into the I did everything right, and these children are ungrateful, and to not be willing to look at yourself, but then also not to the other side as well, but to try to find that middle ground, right, and those outside viewpoints, those those all or nothing, the black and white thinking rarely will serve us when we get into this type of situation, and we're trying to deal with real people that are nuanced and have we all have messy things that we're bringing to the table and to try to understand each other. So like, what a great thing that you did by saying, I'm not going to do either of those. I'm going into the middle, and I'm going to find my own answers here. I think wisdom is something that I've always thought about. You know, I was reading the Bible at five years old, and wisdom is something you ask God for, but you don't have it. And so I think by saying in the middle, was a wisdom that was from the Divine. It wasn't from me within, but I knew I didn't want like, you know, if my children were not estranged. I would not think those things about them, you know. I wouldn't think, Oh, they're ungrateful. And I wouldn't think like, oh, the sky's gonna fall down. They're gonna die. So I knew that was not the right way to go. I could just feel it. So I wasn't in touch with my body enough to know that those were fallacy thoughts. We have a lot of fallacy thoughts, for sure, for sure, it's so much more difficult to go on the road that you haven't seen traveled before, like you're the first one traveling it. Did you have any examples of anyone that had traveled that road before you, or were you kind of shooting in the dark? I was really shooting in the dark. And, you know, I the people that have written other estrangement books, and without, you know, pointing anybody out, I noticed they were on the side of a vice, one way or the other. And I thought, I can't live my life in a stoic behavior, you know, or a fear based behavior. Or, you know, I deserve to be estranged because you weren't good enough. How do you become peace at peace with other people, even if they've done things to you that really hurt you? How do you how do you absorb when they accuse you of something that you didn't do, or if you have done it, say thank you for telling me so I can overcome and I know that there's a way through this. And so that's why I was like, I gotta get a good counselor. I actually fired two other counselors. To fire I found my other ones, yeah, and then I got a master's in theology, which is divine in itself, like I didn't even plan it. Got all my answers. You know, I was in church growing up and in the military, uh, we would go from church to church. So I was helped and served in like over 14 churches, and I knew some there was questions that weren't answered, and theology really helped me. Study in Greek, study in Hebrew, yeah, yeah, you mentioned that the mother daughter, relationship is unique. Can you tell me some more about that? What do you see that's unique about that? Right? So I think what's kind of unique is a little bit in culture. Because, you know, in culture, the the things that women can do, have done, what we're limited to, depends on the century that you're in, and we are in an interesting, you know, century where we can actually, you know, I've been single now for three years, and I'm doing so well like I would have never even dreamed, like when I was 19, to think that I could do so well without, you know, a husband and a family. And, you know, I believe in husbands and family, but I believe in being single and being significant, whether you're married or whether you're single. But when you have a daughter, you kind of expect her to think the way you do even more. But when you have a son, you're kind of like, well, hang in there, buddy. All you bravado guys, you gotta run with the bulls. You know, and so, but with the daughters, it's almost like for me. I know that I experienced when my daughter responded to certain things that were different than me. It really set me back a little bit, because, you know, we are women and but then I had to readjust that thinking too, that she's very individual, even though we are the same gender and we are mother and daughter, but we do count on each other, and we got to be careful not to my daughter can't think of me as her source, and I can't think of her as my source. And I think those blurred a lot, especially if you're in a relationship with their father, and the Father is maybe not a very good companion, or something's missing. Mothers do rely on their children, and I seen that over and over, so that's a hard pill to swallow. Yeah. So some cultural things like this next generation, which our kids are about the same age, there's a big difference in culture between how we were raised and then what they're experiencing right now, and that can be, I think, is what you're talking about in just the cultural differences in the time that you're raised and what women are allowed and expected to do. It's so much more open for these young women than it was for us when we were their age, and they just have so many more options, but to have that be such a difference between you is is really difficult. Yeah. Did it ever feel like you want to have children so yeah, did it ever feel like it was a rejection of you for her choosing something different, 1,000% and the reason why it felt like it was rejecting, the rejection of me that was a sign of a vice. So I actually thought of her as my source. Like, here's my little mini me. We're gonna, you know, conquer the world together, but all of a sudden, she's conquering the world in a different way than I am, but I can't see the wisdom of it. But then again, if you think about it, as a mom, I mean, I wouldn't trust myself at 1516, 2021, so, you know, just, just seeing that, but it's interesting. I think we talked about this earlier, Tina, there were, like, a couple little girls that my daughter had an issue with. The Little girls didn't have an issue, but they ran themselves into a little bit of a little bit of a problem. And so the moms had to work on it. And I remember some of the moms were very cruel, and I remember standing in the way and saying, No, I know our daughters got themselves in trouble, but you're not going to talk this way to my daughter. And so I stood in the, you know, in the void. But now that I've gotten a divorce, those mothers have come forward and said, You know what, my husband had multiple affairs and a secret life, so no wonder she couldn't handle some of the stuff, like all of them have said that and come back and and, you know, my husband was doing some of the same, very same things, I just didn't know. And so it's just amazing. When you put God as their source, it's okay to you know, realize maybe who are going to do the wrong thing. You can be who you are, whether they are or not, and you don't need to rely on your children. You could support them, but you have to pay attention. And it's not easy, right? And what that sounds like. It happened quite a while ago, then, when she was a teenager, maybe, yeah, when she was a teenager. But it's interesting, because all of our her friends and my girlfriends, we were all like Jesus chasers. We were in the church, loving the Lord. I mean, two of my girlfriends, their husbands were actually pastors, and they're divorced, and there was a lot of adultery, and so I just look back on that, and I think I It has so much more of a of an impact on our children, you know, whether they find out or not, and I didn't know what was going on. And the impact has been very powerful. And estrangement kind of was like the camel that broke this, you know, the straw that broke the camel's back. And as this all started getting revealed, all these truths came out, and I'm like, Oh, well, of course, none of the stuff I worked did worked out hindsight. Yes, there's just some things we're going we're going through stuff. Our kids are going through stuff our marriages are, and we don't find out until much later. And then things start to make sense well. And then what I really learned is that, you know, God loves me more than my marriage. God loves me more than my mother, but more. He loves me more than my my house, my career, and so to be okay with, you know, whatever spouse chooses to do and allow them to go their own journey. You know, wish them well, or you know, even your children allow them to go their own journey. That is a huge courage. That's a virtuous courage that you want to run into a vice, yeah, even if you gotta sit on your hands, yeah. Stay in the stay in the virtue. Do, yeah, well, and staying in the virtue of that, instead of rushing in and trying to fix it, that allows them to work out the things that they need to and you stay a steady source of resource for them when they're ready, instead of you forcing that resource on them before they're ready for it. This is like a big awakening, allowing your child children to have their own success and their own failure, you know? So my my parents were raised by depression babies, and so I grew up, I grew up with the echoes of, you better fix that, you better take care of that, you better get that done. And so that's what I did. I mean, it's unbelievable all the things that I did, you know, as a stay at home mom, as a housewife, you know, all the ways that we dealt with our real estate, I was a volunteer with basketball, with church, like all kinds of stuff, homeschooling. I mean, I'm surprised I didn't exhaust myself into a heart attack, because I did everything, but now stepping back and doing what I want to do, which is, now I cultivate my talents like writing. I do ballroom dresses. I'm making a high fashion dress right now. And I help authors, you know, write books too, and golf. And I'm just like, this is fun. This feels good. I don't feel stressed. I feel like I'm in the RESTful temple of the Lord as I just cultivate my own talents and wish others you know to find their journey as you've been able to make that shift. How is that affected the way that you approach your relationships with other people, that especially your family? Oh, it's very interesting, because I know it's been very hard, because there's certain family members that haven't gone through the training that I've gone through. And so there's things, there's real life that comes up. And, you know, I believe that God allows these things into our life, for for him to say, I love you, and you need to look at me. And so there's issues that I know that I can't serve, them, I can't help them. And to be able to say, I'm sorry you're going through this, but I know that you can figure it out when you're ready, and until you want to do it, you know, you might not, I might not be able to be with you until you kind of figure that out, because you really are hurting. It's kind of like you need to go to the hospital and, you know, get some medicine here. You know, your medicines to think about how you're thinking and try to love the people in a bad situation. So as you've been able to move into more authenticity in yourself, has Do you think that's become easier for you to to give them space, and to give yourself some space away from them? 100% because one of the things that really bothered me is what I was missing, like missing the great Christmases together, missing, you know, missing like a wedding, you know, not being invited to something. And it's interesting how I've been allowed to really rest in the fact that God has protected me. So I think a lot about estrangement as a as a mother Swan puts her wings over her babies in the storm, and even Jesus put his arms out for us in the storm of death so we can rise again. And I think a lot about that, and I think, well, maybe I'm in the swan's wings to be protected because there's a storm coming. And it's very fascinating, because I wouldn't you know, I didn't know this when I talked to you last time, but I actually have a cousin that started talking to me after 53 years, and like I thought she didn't invite me to her wedding, and she thought she didn't invite me, you know, she didn't invite me to hers, like vice versa, come to find out, you know, some of the family members took away Our invitations and acted like we didn't want to come. Oh, and she found them interesting. I'm like, What is this decade later, so we're having a very beautiful time with restoration and but you don't know, like, if somebody doesn't invite you, some somewhere who's in charge of the invitation, you might want to ask, but then you hide and you don't want to ask. You don't want to say you don't want me to come to your wedding. I mean, I won't, but if you didn't mean to give me an invitation, I won't come. And they might be I wanted to send you invitation. Yeah, turns out somebody else didn't want you there, right? And we don't usually follow up with those kind of questions. Oh, no. There any any question that's that's difficult. So I do a lot of like this might hurt you, but I got a question, you know, or I just let it go, because I know God, in the end of the at the end of the day, is going to work it out, yeah? Well, I know you said you had you noticed that your family tradition of estrangement came from difficulty in the partner, the marriage relationship. Are there other ways that you've seen mother, daughter, them become estranged? Besides that, what are some of the common ways that you see that happen? Well, in the book, I talk a lot about like a kingdom, like, if you start processing, like, how you think. Like your personal kingdom, your cultural kingdom, and then even think about the evil kingdom, you know, the sinister but then God's Kingdom is over. So if your child is going to like junior high, we're so influenced by our peers, right? And so that kingdom of your peers can often trump your family. So when you really start thinking like, why am I making a decision to do this? Is it because of my my peers, or in my personal kingdom? Do I really want to do that? You know, I think it's funny. I grew up in the 70s and in junior high, and us girls were crop tops, and our parents did not want us to wear crop tops. That was a cultural thing. Then I thought, in my personal world, I didn't want to wear a crop top, but I did wear one. So you grow and you realize, well, my personal do I really want to do this, you know? And then cultural so those the culture around your child. You don't know what they're dealing with, and you definitely don't know what your mother's dealing with, that, that's for sure. And if you have, like, a big argument, you have an estrangement, there'll be there'll be things that people say that are triggers that need to come out for you to face it. So a lot of issues that we're not even it sounds like we're kind of missing each other. We're not seeing the cultural issues that maybe our daughter or a mother is dealing with, but then and just not, not even, sometimes even knowing the right questions to ask to bring those to light. Mm, hmm, right, right. And being a space, safe place for your child to be able to say, you know, Hey, Mom, I want to tell you something that I found out about a friend, you know, or I found out about Dad, you know, that's hard because, you know, we were aligned. My husband and I thought we're very aligned. We look very aligned. But there were things that my child knew that I didn't know, and she couldn't tell me. So, you know, just being able to say, you know, Hey, I saw this. And being able to tell your mom and and be able to have her be a safe place, and it makes it difficult, because sometimes you got to deal with those things, and your child doesn't want to want you to deal with them, but at least if you can deal with them as best as you can and walk that journey. But it's hard to be, you know, in a relationship with someone else. It's hard to have children, but to be able to realize that sometimes you have to do hard things together, but yet your child is brave enough, they have the tools they need to and trust your child. It's going to be your success. What do you want to do? Yeah, and I love this that you're talking about being a safe place, because I think that there's not a lot that can happen in a true connected relationship without having that safe space. What are some of the ways that you have created that? So it's interesting, because one of the things we talked about in the book is we talked about communication goals, and communication goals. Actually, I got it from Audrey and Bob Meisner from love married life.com, and basically, through all of their their counseling, they've noticed that every person either likes to feel liked first. They like to feel safe, they like to feel control, or they like to feel right. For example, control might be somebody that wants to have all the tasks done of the day, you know, in organized time. But then maybe somebody might like, like being liked, you know, or or safe. So like, if you have a child that wants to feel safe, the last thing they want to do is wake up to a morning routine of the trumpet blaring. Let's get everything done, right? So if you know what your child likes, that's a good that's a good way to communicate and say, like, Hey, I know you want to take the morning and rest, but when you're ready, here's a list of the things that I need to have done. You know, instead of like, going your own way, I like to be in control. We're going to organize the day and up to it without any care of the other person, because we all have an imprint of who we are, and if you take the time to learn, and you know, it's interesting, when I went through that test about what I was, I was actually had no idea that I was living in an opposite way, because I was mirroring what my husband liked. But when I did things that I liked, like I like to feel liked and safe when I did that, everything went smooth, but when I was controlled and being right about something, there was chaos. And I couldn't even tell you what my children's communication goals were. That's how far off I was. Yeah, yeah, you get so focused that you get far off on what's important, right? And this kind of sounds like what you were talking about before, with just recognizing that that child, that daughter that you have, is not just a little mini version of you, and assuming that they have the same communication goals and needs that you have, but being open enough to say this is a separate person. Let me. Look and be curious about what might be important to them, and maybe ask them questions and just be really observant. Maybe they don't even know at a young age what's important to them, but by observing, we can be we can learn a lot. Well, it's interesting because I really kind of detail this in the in the chapter, and I also have a video on the school s, k, o, l, about this. If there's a big family problem and you have one parent that likes to be liked and one child that likes to be liked that problem, those two are going to work right through it. No big deal. But if you have a big problem and you like to be in control, and then you have a child that wants to be liked, there's going to that is so far apart, there's going to be a big clash. It's almost textbook. It is. It is so real. So when you could think, okay, so here's a problem. And in the book, I talk about like, you have a family gathering, and a family member comes that maybe needs some therapy the child. And you know, maybe the child in control is like, I'm going to tell my uncle what to do and he needs to get into therapy. But the mom might be liked and say, Hey, let's not talk about it till later. Then the two are like, you don't care about my uncle. And then the mom will be like, You wrecked everything again. See how that crash happens. So just understanding that kind of gives us, like a like a boundary. So I play a lot of golf, and the white stakes are, are in bounds. And so what are your white stakes like, knowing what the inbound game is, understanding the player, so that you can play your best all the way through. It's a little bit like that in a parallel universe somewhere? Yeah, I really liked that chapter. I thought that was really informative and and just so helpful to look at it from that perspective. It really, it really is, yeah, yeah. So once, let's just say, once we get estranged, right? What are some of the roadblocks, the struggles to finding that reconnection, to coming back together again. Well, you know, they they have to the other person you're estranged with. They're going to have to do their own part. And so that's why the front of the book has got two bridges where the bridges are exactly equal, and there's a mother and daughter in every each side. They have to have a secure bridge. So if you can work on yourself, you're going to be so much better. Because, let's say your mom or daughter do come back, but yet they're, they're, maybe they're dealing with stuff that's really hard. You know, we have a lot of very difficult things in the world that have affected our mothers and our daughters. So if you can, you can work on yourself. You know, challenge every thought you have, and just start being a safe place for yourself. It's going to be hard. You're going to go through grief, and grief hurts bad, but you will get to a place of peace. And I'm almost as a place now that it's been like, you know, my daughter came back after seven years. I haven't talked to my son yet, but he's doing a very important job for the military. So I'm not sure when that'll happen, but I noticed that I have so much joy, even though I don't have my kids with me, 24/7 and I had my kids with me, 24/7 for they were 21 and like 23 I was like the mom in it, in it, to win it, but I lost it, yeah, yeah. I like how you said each person needs to do their own work, because so often, when you get in those types of situations, so easy and and natural, I think for most people to point the finger at the other person and say, you need some help. You need when you fix yourself, then I'll come back without, you know, pointing a finger at yourself and saying, what, how have I contributed? What work do I need to do? How can I learn and grow through this situation that is a much harder ask to do, a much harder road to travel than to just require somebody else be different. So I love that you said, everybody has their own work to do. Well, you can't see what your mom went through, really. You know. You only know your mom based on your own age. You don't know what she's gone through. And then also, you don't really know what your daughter is thinking too. And so giving that space to like, maybe I don't know all the answers here, and maybe I'm so stuck in my own head that I've judged everything that I need to kind of let them find their way. And the other thing is that people have to find their way. You know, when everybody's got to swim in the water on their own, you can't swim for somebody. And so they might really struggle for a long time. And it's not easy, because I'm the kind of person that understands the joy and the excitement and the fun that can be hot, that's that's who I am. I would love to have rainbow puppy dog, you know, puppy dogs and rainbows all the time. But I had to learn to accept that, that, you know, people aren't going to jump up and be like me. I got to give them space to. To, you know, just be who they are, even if they're not like me, and that's rough. Yeah, because, you know, when people are hurting, it's a lot like a dog that gets hit by a car if you go to help them to chew your arm off. You know, you have to let you know either the professionals take care of them, or just, you know, because it it is hard and it's painful, because you want your mom in your life. You want your children in your life, but at the same time, they're dealing with something that is hurting them, and you you don't want to be taken under the undertow with them. Yeah. And, and let me give you this idea. And I really believe that, just like you said, when a dog gets hit by a car, you try to help it, it's going to chew your arm off, right? So when we are hurt by someone, it feels like an open wound, and there's probably open wounds on both sides, and when you continue to be around them, you just keep, like, pushing on that wound, right? And it doesn't have time to heal, and it just keeps getting reopened over and over again, the more you're with the other person. And I really believe that just a I don't want to call it estrangement, I want to say like a timeout from each other, and do a lot of healing when you're both taking a time out, and at least on your end, you are purposely taking that to do some healing and to to figure out some things without having those buttons pushed all the time. Yeah, that that can be a really helpful and a really healing thing to do. What are you right? Yeah, 100% so now that my daughter is back, she has been working very hard on herself, too, and the things that we share are amazing. So it's almost like when you clear all the yuck out of your life, you and your mom could do anything together. You know, once you realize your vision side by side, and you're all both doing your own part. It's worth it, even though it's very hard. In the book, I also talk about your emotions that are trapped. And there's a great book called The Body Keeps the Score, and it talks a lot about this. And it's interesting how certain emotions linger within a child or within you. And I used to think that I was never going to do anything that would make my child feel a feeling that I didn't like. Well, I had no idea. The only way to really get your child to not feel that emotion that's trapped in you, you have to heal from it. You know, you know, for example, it's interesting. The word discarded is an emotion, and I felt discarded over a lot of different things just based on my family journey. And so I did everything to help my children never ever feel that way, but my children felt that way. And then when I talked to my mom, she was like, I never discarded you. I felt discarded. And I'm like, Wow, this emotion is true, and that kind of science came out in the 1990s and also there's this ace test. It's called ACE trauma test, and it came out in the 1990s anything that your child experiences, even if it's in your utero, and emotion that's going to stick in their body until they can heal from it. And I never realized it until I went through estrangement, and I actually was like, What is wrong with me? Why is I'm doing everything? I'm hitting every single goal in life, but I'm bored, not getting much out of it. And then my kids got estranged, and I realized I I need to heal all those spots, and that's kind of cool, yeah, now that you're on the other side, it hurts to get through it. Oh, for sure, but I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do the hard work, because I know what's on the other side. And I think that you just highlighted something, that estrangement is painful, especially when you're in the middle of it and you're not understanding why it can be super painful, and working through that pain is very, very difficult. What do you think is one, like, maybe one or two main things that people get wrong when that happens? How are they not thinking in a helpful way for themselves? Well, it is hard because, like, I know that I actually, thankfully, I had money to go and pay for a counselor, because I went to some counselors through my universe, through, like, the medical and I didn't like them, but I found these other counselors, so I had to pay that with my own money. And then also, you know, the university. But if you can find people you're around, pick up this book, you know, look through that book, there's videos, and then also find people that want you to stay on the path that is the path that holds you to your value, holds you to your virtue. For me, I found that with church, people that really do believe in Christ, that really do follow Christ. And so, you know, my counselors are Christian, the people that have given me. Wisdom, and I will seek wisdom on certain things 100% because I know if I go my own way, I'm not sure that I can see everything. And now I give those friends that I trust, I give them the free reign to say, hey, Jodi, you're being dumb. You're right. I must be being dumb. So, you know, be humble enough to listen, then maybe you're not quite on the right path, because you're going to find out you're on the wrong path, and if you find out you're on the wrong path, well then be glad you found out. Start fresh. There's nothing wrong with being wrong. There's nothing wrong with failing. Professional athletes, they're they're so good at failing, and if they would give up when they fail, they would never be able to compete. That's such a good thing to remember, because we expect it in something like, you know, sports or a musical instrument or something like that. But in life, it's just as it's not as acceptable it feels like to fail, or in our family relationships like that, no, no. And the human relationship is so interesting because we do kind of, we do slide into as thinking somebody is our source, or somebody's supposed to behave a certain way. But when you just step back and how am I going to respond, and what am I going to do? And my source is, God, it's not somebody else, but it does hurt when somebody messes up, but then you gotta like, all right, maybe they messed up because I chose to believe them and you know it wasn't right, or maybe I made the way easy for them. So just take a step back. We're all human. We all make mistakes. That's such a good perspective. Well, this has been awesome talking to you, and we're going to put a link in the show notes for how they can find your book. But I have one question for you. Okay, last question, if you could go back and tell young Jody something, what would you tell her? Listen to the Holy Spirit. Listen to Scripture, even when it comes to what the Church tells you, because every church throughout time has got different ideas and different doctrines. Doctrines are great, but the Holy Spirit is dead on, and so is scripture. And be careful not to think that because you have a marriage or because you have children, you're just totally safe. No, keep your eyes open and trust the momentum, even if you go through something, God has got you, he's there. This is his life through you. Give him that chance to just, you know, be all, all things through you. That's beautiful. Thank you. If people want to find you later, I think you gave you gave me a link to your website. Is that correct? That's right. Okay, me there. Okay, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here with us today. We really appreciate you and your book. Nice meeting you. Thank you. Bye, bye. You.