"Everything is Time Management" - A D3's Thoughts on Dental Education (feat. Parker Norman)

Dental education is in a state of rapid transformation. From exploring alternative career pathways to tackling rising student loan debt, integrating the social determinants of health to addressing mental health, today's dental students are on the move. In Episode 14 of "The Dental Domination Podcast," Dan Brian of DentalScapes sits down with Parker Norman, a D3 dental student at the University of Pennsylvania, to talk about her journey toward becoming a practitioner — and advocate. Whether you're considering dental school or you've been practicing for years, don't miss this update on the state of American dental education from one of the profession's most promising young talents.
Check out the show notes for the full video episode and a complete transcript. 

Transcript

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All right, welcome back to the Dental Domination Podcast. My name is Dan Bryan. I am the co-founder at Dentalscapes. We're an online marketing agency specifically for dental practices, but I am not here today to talk about running shop or anything like that. I'm here actually to talk with a very special guest that we brought in today to get a really interesting and unique perspective on the future of dentistry and on what it's like in particular to be. a dental student, in this case, the D3 student going through dental school and about ready to hit the ground running, so to speak. And so I'm really pleased today to welcome Parker Norman. Parker is a D3 student, like I said, at UPenn, the School of Dental Medicine there at University of Pennsylvania. She is also pursuing, as if a dental degree weren't enough, she's pursuing a master in law degree as well, which is a really cool interdisciplinary program. And I hope to dig into that a little bit more here today as well. She's interested in policy advocacy though, public health, pediatric dentistry as well. And close to my heart, she also earned her bachelor of science degree in public health at the health policy and management program at UNC Chapel Hill. Where as it happens, she partnered with my husband on some research and other interesting things like that. So I'm really excited to have you here today, Parker. Thank you so much for agreeing to join. And what can you tell us just off the bat about yourself? How the hell did you land in dental school? Like what brought you here to this place? Yeah, thank you so much for having me. A little bit of background about me, I'm originally from North Carolina, and like many of us, I explored quite a few different pathways before landing on dental school. I do think back, though, about my childhood, and I think there was a moment in my childhood that was really the catalyst for me to pursue dental school that I didn't even notice at the time. I had two adopted cousins who were from Vietnam and they came here with cleft lip and cleft palate and as a kid I saw other kids make fun of them. I saw how that craniofacial difference impacted their psychosocial health and well-being and that was definitely a driving factor for me to pursue dental school later. Yeah. I really love the connection to whole body health, not just the psychosocial, but also the physical. Now we're talking a lot about diabetes, cardiovascular health, mental health, all of that coming together and being able to give patients that new confidence. And that's something that has been disconnected for so long. They talk about the breach or the siloed approach that dentistry has taken in this country when compared to medicine. And so I'm just curious, and like we talked about offline, I have so many questions to ask, but just starting off, your experience in dental school now, are you seeing the curriculum really address that oral systemic connection more so than... than what you think may have been offered previously. Is that something that's been pretty hit home on? Or that's not even a word. That's not even a right turn, but whatever. You know what I mean. yeah. Yeah, oh, definitely. I think it really is focused more on systemic body connections now. At Penn, I know this isn't always the case at every dental school, but we're really lucky here to have the campus integrated with all the other schools that Penn has. So the medical school, the nursing school, you know, they're not far away. We have professors at Penn that you know, go and teach between the three schools. And that's really awesome. My curriculum here, it's focused a lot on organ systems the first couple of years, and also the oral cavity in the head and neck, obviously, but you do really get that full body focus. And it's really important, you know, with patients to focus on that before you even get to the oral health side of things, since all of those things impact oral health. Yeah, 100%. And you said that, you know, the dental school at UPenn is connected with the school of medicine and also behavioral health, it sounds like. But I want to talk really quickly about something that I alluded to at the beginning, which is the law school there at Penn or the legal program. Anyhow, how did you get involved in sort of this dual track program? And, what do you, what would you recommend to other, you know, students that are considering dental school as they think about ways that they can actually, sort of make the program their own, so to speak. Yeah, so Penn has a super unique dual degree program. I knew coming out of the School of Public Health at UNC that I might want to pursue a master's of public health. So I started looking at dental schools that had a master's of public health option. The thing that really drew me into Penn was actually the fact that I could complete the dual degrees in four years instead of five years. That means that I get to go in and out of dental school with the same class. And you know, other dentists, other dental students realize how important that is because you really need all of that support of your class during dental school. And then I also was really excited to go to Penn because they had scholarships for some of these dual degree programs as well. So when I got here my first year, you know, I just focused really hard in dental school. I thought like maybe I'll still apply to the Masters of Public Health dual degree and start that during my second year. and that would be in the evenings. And during that time, I started exploring all of the other dual degree options. I hadn't ever heard of a master in law degree before coming here, and then I stumbled upon that program, and I just remember reading about it and thinking, this is actually what I have to do. I had previously taken a health law class through the health policy and management program, and I really understood. you know, there is a huge connection to the lawmakers and the policymakers and things in public health that we actually are able to make successful versus not. And I wanted to have a better legal background so that I can get policy makers and, you know, lobbyists, legislators, all of those people, the information they need to do their jobs the most effectively. A lot of them, you know, they're not the dentist or the doctor. But I want to be able to transfer that over in a way that makes sense to them and is actually applicable to the legal structure. Yeah, well, you keep teeing me up for additional questions, so I've got two, but I'm going to have to start with either one of them. And so I'm just going to pick. But you talked about public health, and that's something that I know is near and dear to your heart, and you've been really involved in and passionate about. What is it that drew you to public health? And I also wanted to ask, I think you're in a program where you've committed to serving in public health after graduation. Is that right? And what does that look like? And how does that make your journey a little bit unique? Yeah, so I'll start with the first question about how I came to public health in the first place. And I, you know, it's actually kind of funny to me because the first time I really heard about public health, it was actually in Spanish, Salud Publica. I was in Costa Rica at the time and I had decided to pursue this Spanish for the medical professions minor at UNC and I was there over that summer and the school that we... happened to be studying in was in San Jose, Costa Rica, which is the main capital city of Costa Rica. It's really accessible to their government facilities, their water systems, their healthcare clinics, and all of our classes were kind of integrated and within that school. And we would go on these field trips to those areas and see how that country was operating. And I came back from that program and I was really thinking to myself, wow, Costa Rica really does some things. right, you know, they were providing care to so many people and I hadn't witnessed that before, but there were also some things about that system that weren't working out super great. And I was just like, I hope that I can bring back what I learned and also apply, you know, things that I see that are better about our system there too. And that's kind of how I stumbled upon public health. And then I... heard about the Health Policy and Management program from other students at UNC and I still remember I was actually on the Gillings webpage looking at the nutrition program because I thought that was something I was really interested in and I happened to scroll down further to the Health Policy and Management. Didn't really give it a second thought until then and I saw this one thing, one quote, changing healthcare systems at home and abroad and I said that's the program that I want to do. And it was pretty much as simple as that, kind of just you know, the right place at the right time, around the right people, and realize what a change it can make in the world. And I was really excited to be working with all of the public health people that I've already worked with, and the ones in the future. That, of course, kind of led me to the other program that you mentioned, which is the National Health Service Corps program. That's a program through HRSA, and I really wish more pre-dental students knew about it. They have... significantly increased the funding for that program in the last couple of years under the current administration and hopefully that keeps happening but the program itself essentially you can commit to two three or four years you have to commit to at least two years um but you can serve in any area that's a dental hipster so a dental hipster is a dental health professional shortage area and each dental hipster has a different score. and those are usually by county of different states and they're updated yearly. And when you graduate, then all of that. I, unfortunately I am a little bit familiar only because again, uh, unfortunately, I think just two years ago, maybe three, but I think it was more recent than that, but they just reclassified every single county in North Carolina as a DHPSA, which is just mind blowing and awful. Yep. It is crazy. Um, but yeah, so with that hip's a score that you get, you get a certain range of like a score that you need to meet. So it needs to be like at, or, um, I can't remember off the top of my head, if it's above or below that score, but you essentially have to go to that area or worse dental health professional shortage area to work for your service. And that can be in so many different practice facilities. I know we talk about the military that you're working. If you were to do that for your service to help pay for your graduate school, you'd be working at the military. But the really awesome thing about the NHSC scholarship program is that if you're accepted into it, you just have to go to any clinic in that area that meets that dental HPSA score, and you can work there. So that could be a private practice, Indian Health Service, FQHC. so many options and a health center. I actually wanna work with Indian Health Service. That's something I had thought about for a while and you know, Dr. Bryan did that himself and I had a lot of other mentors that did that and I've just heard amazing things and I think it's such an incredible place to be able to see, depending what kind of reservation you're working at, because some of them, they contract out their own. doctors but other tribes they actually the federal government does more of that work for them. But it'll be interesting to see about that system if I end up at one where the federal government's funding it but they also have not just dental there they usually have everything else all of health care combined at their clinics and I think it'll be a really cool first place to work for that reason and get some ideas you know flowing. for the future and also the mentorship there. I've just heard it can be really great. Obviously you gotta like kind of search it out and see what each individual tribe or clinic is like, but I'm really excited and there's lots of opportunities. So. it's amazing. Now with the Public Health Service Corps, I got it right, right? Is that what it's called? So there is the Public Health Service Corps and that is one option of how you could work with Indian Health Service. That would be you become a federal employee, but there's another way that you can be employed with Indian Health Service and that would be contracting directly to the tribe itself. There's a certain statute that allows for that. I don't remember it off the top of my head, but there's a way that you can do that too. But with this program that you said, and I think it's so incredible, and I agree with you that I wish more students entering dental school were aware of it. How does it work though with regard to funding? Is it a loan repayment program? Is it a flat out grant or scholarship program? What does that kind of look like? Yeah, so this particular program that I am in is a flat out scholarship. I don't have any loans. I'm so lucky. I can't even talk about the stress burden that has released. And they also help you with your living cost and other reasonable costs, you know, like your books or your boards, or if you're going for residency interviews, there's an extra stipend for that yearly. They do have other programs that I think are sometimes confused with the National Health Service Corps Scholarship Program that are actually loan repayment programs, but those programs while they're also through HRSA, they're a different program. Yeah, my husband, he was in IHS, as you know, and he went through the loan repayment program, which was still super helpful and great. I wish, well, I wish at the time that he were going through it that the program was as well funded as it sounds like it is now. And hopefully, like you said, it will, it will only continue. But that is really cool. And, you know, we had someone on the show not too long ago talking about student loan debt and just the the massive crushing burden that places on student shoulders. And I'm sure, you know, you can relate to that having seen so many of your fellow students experience that and go through it and get those statements, those eye popping statements each semester. So, just such a, such a huge issue in dentistry right now. I want to pivot though and go back, you know, The other thing that you had mentioned that you're really into is policy advocacy and working in the policy space. And you're getting some of that through the master in law degree and that program, which is really cool. And like we talked about offline, you also did some work while at UNC and while back in North Carolina to move policy reform along and do some research supporting that and that sort of thing. How did you develop that interest in policy advocacy? And what do you think... what do you think it says about the types of opportunities that are actually available for dental graduates who previously may have only considered the clinical path in terms of what they ultimately end up doing? Right. So I initially became interested in policy and advocacy through the Health Policy and Management Program itself, actually. Honestly, before that program, I didn't really know much about policy at all. And then I became more involved through my internship over the summer with the North Carolina Oral Health Collaborative, where Dr. Bryan works or worked at the time. I assure you he doesn't care. He's still Dr. Brian to me, but you know, that was an incredible internship. I had the most incredible mentor ever there. And I got to see how things are working in North Carolina, how policy is changing there and making access to care for more people in North Carolina. And that... experience really drove me to realize that was something that I wanted to keep along long term, even if I was also a clinician. And I think coming to Penn and being involved in the master in law program along with some of my other dental colleagues has further showed me that. And I've been able to also become involved with ASDA and the ADA at lobby days. And then there's an organization within Pennsylvania, the Pennsylvania Coalition for Oral Health, and I've been able to be involved with them at state lobby days. And it was really cool this year because we went there to lobby back in April and we lobbied for the Medicaid benefit, adult dental Medicaid benefit to be added back in the state and that actually like became a bill and was passed through. And yeah, it was so actually incredible. And then the other really cool thing was I kind of... talked to them about this on my own accord, and I'm sure other people were also talking to the state about it. But something I've really been advocating for as part of the National Council on Advocacy is the Dentist Dental Hygienist Compact. And essentially that would help with licensure portability because if you get a license in any state that has signed onto the compact, then it's transferable to another state that's within the compact. And I know there's... people who say there's pros and cons to this, but you gotta think about like the grand scheme of things. Like we're gonna help way more people than we're hurting. That's what I think about, the public health in me. And that actually is something that now Pennsylvania, each state that signs on to the compact, they have to get a bill rolling and then they can eventually sign on. So Pennsylvania is now at the point where they have a bill rolling and hopefully will be like a green state. here soon that will be part of the compact, which will be pretty awesome. So I have a personal question. How do you find time to do all this? Yeah, I mean honestly, I mean I was from a young age, I was driven and organized and I think all of that came with practice. I think I owe a lot of it to my grandma. Like she was, I always went to her house after school and she taught me at a young age, like how to be an organized student in person. And she also, like I got a lot of my drive from her too. She was really involved in education always and I definitely wouldn't be like where I am without her. But yeah, I mean, I just keep that balance. Also taking time for myself, that's really important. I think a lot of us tend to forget about that, but I actually like, my friends, they're so funny. They're always like, I don't know how you have time to go on random trips with all the other stuff you do. I'm like, I wouldn't have. time for the stuff I do if I didn't go on these random trips. teed me up for another question though that I wanted to get into. So, again, dental school can be extremely overwhelming. It's obviously extremely time consuming in terms of having to fit all of these experiences into a day that's no longer than the rest of us are facing. So, how do you manage the work-life balance associated with dental school and all the pressures that come with that? How do you take time to take those trips? Yeah. Spend time on your own. You know, I think something I always think about is saying you're always going to be balanced, you know, that's not completely reachable. And it sounds bad to say it, but some days are going to be worse than others, right? And you got to know that there's going to be the easier days and the harder days. And I think I think about that a lot. You never know what every day is going to give you, especially as a clinician. Like you might talk to the patient on the phone. They think it's one thing, but you got them in the chair and it's another thing. You never really know what's going to happen. So definitely like, um, thinking about that, taking certain things with a grain of salt and just rolling on, even if it was a hard day. Um, and then for me, I think having a hobby outside of dental school and, you know, as done the ADA, the policy and advocacy work is really important. And for me, that's, you know, I'm very outdoorsy. I run a lot. I also hike, um, my boyfriend and I, we. love going to the national parks and that's most of my traveling. We kind of pick another park that we're going to go to and do some cool hike or rafting trip and camp and you know the having those things in the future too it kind of like keeps you going. Of course like patients keep you going too though. I wouldn't be in this profession if it wasn't for them. I've talked with two dentists previously on the podcast here about mental health, and that obviously plays into work-life balance and the pressures of dental school. And then, you know, from their perspectives, the pressures of private practice outside of school. What do you think about how dental education, you know, today, 2024, is supporting students in terms of helping them manage mental health and, you know, stay on top of that? Is that something that you think? at least relative to the experiences you've heard of in the past that we're making progress on, or how do you feel about it? You know, I think that's really hard to say, and it's pretty relative. And I, you know, I only have my one experience here at Penn. I do hear from a lot of other students at other schools, though, and I think it does tend to vary across the board and even like per student, like some of our schedules are very different, you know, during each week. So it just depends. I think the schools are definitely making more of an effort, but I think some of these efforts, unfortunately, aren't super tangible. Yeah. It's more of an effort than before for sure, but we got to think more creatively about how it can actually be tangible. And I don't know the answer to that question yet. I think there needs to be more time built into the schedules for sure for yourself to be able to actually take that time at certain schools. But like I said, that varies and then I am hoping that we can offer something universally to dental students. I don't know exactly how that'll happen, maybe through the ADA or ASDA. ASDA represents most dental students. I'm hoping we can incorporate something there. We have something really cool where we offer a class pass discount, which is it's like you get a pass to go into certain workout classes. You get it a little cheaper as a student. So I always wonder if we can do something like that with mental health services as well. yeah, that would be cool. be a good start, but all of that said, you have to have the time to take advantage of those things. And I think right now, sometimes, I mean, the, the body of knowledge that we're learning today is way bigger than it was. You know, there's always new discoveries and it's not that we're ever going to know everything because we're not. But there's a lot that they do want you to know at times and you got to get good. clinically and you got to have time for that. That takes some students more time than others. And you know, most, yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah. You got to be willing to take the time for yourself and that's not something that the school can necessarily force upon you. They can try, but a lot of that's like, it comes down to the person. But I think in general, like. What the schools are doing, trying to value it more, that says a lot to students in itself because previously, you know, that wasn't totally the case. And while we've started, I'll say there's a ways to go. I don't want us to stop working on it. yeah. Well, speaking of, you know, working on it, I wanted to, you know, kind of zoom out and look at the big picture here. So you're a D3, soon to be in your last year of dental school. Hard to believe. I'm sure it's at times felt like it was moving at the speed of an iceberg and other times flying by. But, you know, you've had an opportunity now to really get a sense of the profession and You know, you're obviously, you know, one of the dentists that is facing some of the most significant technological changes we've seen within the profession and the industry in the last few decades. Coming out of dental school, you'll be, you know, facing a landscape that's really changed a lot since, you know, even the last decade or so. What do you see? Where do you see the field of dentistry heading in the next five, 10 years as you come out of school? And what are some of the biggest opportunities? And then what are some of the challenges that you see ahead on the horizon? Not for yourself necessarily, but for the profession and for others who are gonna follow in your footsteps. Right. Yeah, I think going into the future, I think one of the biggest changes I do see coming in the next five to 10 years, which I kind of alluded to earlier is increased licensure portability. I think that's going to be huge for people at all levels, whether you're a student, a dentist, like an allied oral health professional, that's gonna impact you too. And another thing that I... Kind of going along those lines though, something that I think is going to be a challenge as we keep going is our healthcare system not being as integrated as it could be here in the United States. I think that's something, you know, we faced that challenge for a while, but I don't see that we're gonna stop facing it anytime soon. And I think that sometimes greatly, you know, affects the care that we actually are able to give. patients. I think we got to think more about allied health professionals across like all areas who's able to like look inside someone's mouth. Are we preparing all of those people to do that? Are we preparing them to do you know very basic levels of preventative treatment because not all kids and adults are going to go see a dentist. Not all kids and adults are going to go see a doctor, medical Yeah. and think about how we can integrate these things. I love your generation's focus and seeming enthusiasm for interdisciplinary care and for integration. It's so important. And I wanted to get back to, you know, you talk about policy and you talk about public health. Well, dentistry and oral health care is obviously more than just clinical practice. It's also, you know, social determinants and social determinants of health and even the political determinants of health. Is that something also, you know, we talked about? the oral systemic connection. Are those things also being talked about now? More, would you say, do you think in dental school and the education that you've received so far? Oh yeah, I mean, I think back when I was an undergrad, I didn't know about social determinants of health in any of my, you know, pre-health coursework. Aside from what I learned specifically in the public health courses, which of course you'll hear about it in those courses, but Penn, they do a really awesome job of integrating public health into the dental school curriculum. We also have community rotations where we go to different clinics around the city. And so it is talked about. a lot, I think way more than it was before. And I think that will also lead to more support for different policies in that realm as well as we go into the future. Awesome. Well, as we wrap up, I wanted to just kind of leave on a more personal and kind of inspiring note. What are you most excited about, you know, coming out of dental school here in the next year, year and a half, whatever it may be? What is what is most exciting to you? The challenges that are ahead, maybe some of the opportunities like you mentioned to work in policy. What is what are you what are you just ready to get started on? That is a deep question, but I think if I had to choose, one thing right now that I'm very enthused by is actually going on to pursue a pediatric dental residency. I know I talked to you about that a little bit before, but that's a decision I made more recently, but never too late, right? And I'm really excited for that. I think it's a really good place to invest a lot of resources and kids. I always think about the Heckman equation and that was actually an equation created by an economist, but it talks about every dollar invested earlier in life. You get a way better return on your investment than any dollar invested later in life. And the public health in me is like so excited to get started with these kids and their families and then also be advocating for them on a policy level. There's another thing, you know, the curb cutting effect. If we collectively as a society invest in one population, it's gonna like do wonders for all of the others. And I think about that a lot too. Not that all of my policy and advocacy work in the future is gonna be just focused on kids. It won't be, it'll be across the board for sure. But I'm just really excited for that. I was just so excited to come to that decision after exploring so many things that was fun. But I think a lot of. people who have been through dental school know just how nice it is to finally be like, all right, this is what I'm doing. I'm so excited. Yeah. Well, amazing. You've you've had an awesome journey and it's really inspiring to hear you talk about it. And, you know, the passion and enthusiasm that you have for the profession is so, so inspiring. What would you closing out here? What would you say to others who, you know, younger folks or maybe not even younger folks, maybe people who are middle aged, but they're considering going into dental school. What would you encourage them to do? if that's a path that they're considering. Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a lot of different things you can do and all of the things that they, you know, tell you to do, it can look different for everyone. So take what I say with a grain of salt. But I would say obviously shadowing and going and volunteering, maybe like depending where you are in life, like getting a job at a dental office or in the healthcare escape can be really helpful. I would definitely recommend that and doing something to hone your manual dexterity and your hand skills. I think I probably, yeah, I probably like looking back I kind of wish I had done more of that before done old school. I think lab wouldn't have been as taxing for me as it was if I had done a little bit more of that. For me, I did play piano for a really long time and that was really helpful. Yeah. But there's a lot of other things you can do and you know, just Do something you're passionate about. It doesn't have to be dental related. Just, they see that on your applications. Your passion will shine through. If you're passionate about research, do that, but you certainly don't have to do research. If you're passionate about service, go do some service. And hopefully all of us in dental school are wanting to do service, and that way we give back to the profession later. But do something you're passionate about, and talk to... other dental students, dentists, shadow, make sure it's something for you. Because when you do get here, you want to be sure you made the right decision from the get go. Yeah. yeah. So you wanna be sure for sure. Well, thank you so much Parker for joining today. I can't thank you enough. I think this has been such an impactful conversation for me personally. And I also hope that listeners on the show get a lot of value out of it. And I'm sure that they will. I would love to kind of revisit where you're at in a year or two from now. And I think that would be kind of fun to kind of check in and see where you're at. But... If I can drag you back on the show all gently, I will, I will try. Yeah. Well, that would be awesome. Well, thank you so much, Parker. For those of you listening today, thank you so much for joining the dental domination podcast. If you liked what you heard today, please take just two seconds and rate us on apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. I can assure you it goes a long, long way in helping us reach others who might enjoy this program. So thank you so much. Thanks again, Parker, for stopping by and everyone take care. We'll see ya.